Tonuya Scheniell Rainey
My mom used to force me to do a lot of things while I was growing up that I really wasn’t too fond of, who’s hasn’t? She made me take out the trash, clean my room, feed the dog, watch after my younger monsters, er, I mean brothers, do my homework—and man, I thought she was atrocious. I couldn’t wait to move out of the house and be a self-sufficient adult, not realizing I’d have to do all that and more. I am grateful to my mom for everything she taught me and made me do. I’m thankful I have a normal mom.
Let’s meet Tonuya Scheniell Rainey, 38. This, my friends, is NOT a normal mom. She is the complete opposite of a normal mom. Up until late 2006, Ms. Rainey seemed by all means, “normal”. She did hold a full time professional job as a surgical technician at Broward General Medical Center, after all. Things seemed to have taken a drastic turn for the worst sometime between then and now. According to the Department of Children and Families, they have been involved with the family before and are now investigating this case. Hate to say it; but looks like this fantastic agency dropped the ball again.
On March 5, 2009, Ms. Rainey forced her pregnant 16 year old daughter to take drugs to abort the fetus she was carrying. The fetus she found out about a week earlier from her other daughter who had been told in confidence, because its’ mother knew something awful would happen. The fetus she demanded be aborted at the cost of its’ father. The fetus her teenage daughter was adamant about keeping. According to sources, this mom-of-the-year candidate, acquired the drugs from a Miami area clinic called Liberty Health (there isn’t anything I can find as to what the exact drugs were, but I’ll speculate that it was something like Progesterone or Misoprostol). The kicker here is that Mommy Dearest got the drugs from a receptionist named ‘Lisette’, and NOT a doctor or nurse. She was also informed that the drugs were not legal.
Based on her story told through court records, Ms. Rainey, claims to have taken her daughter home from the clinic and inserted the pills inter-vaginally about 4 hours apart, and with her daughter awaiting a definite miscarriage, Ms. Rainey, went and spent the evening at Café Iguana. Some sort of night-club in the Miami/Fort Lauderdale, Florida area. When she returned home at approximately 3am, when her daughter delivered her precious grandbaby into the toilet. Only the criminally insane would have sat there and allowed this to happen this way; but, I guess we’re used to that here on PYSIH, huh? Think Elyse Mamino.
Seems to me, that this brainiac would have used some common sense in figuring out what to do with the fetus, I mean having a background in the medical field and all. Instead, she bagged the small boy into an everyday trash bag, and sat him on the curb for collection. She should have known NOT to throw a human being away in the trash—doesn’t really take an IQ over 80 to know that.
The stories of Ms. Rainey and her daughter seem to differ greatly at this point. Ms. Rainey, claims the fetus never took a breath and was never alive. The mother of the fetus, claims she saw the fetus breathing after delivery when she was carrying him back to her bed. Her story also differs as to when and how the pills were administered to her. She claims the drugs were crushed into a cup of tea and following that, she made her way to school. While she was at school, she began having abdominal cramping and called her mother to come pick her up. She was taken home where she awaited the delivery of her baby sometime that afternoon.
Pamela Jarvis, a friend of Ms. Rainey claims to have been a part of the ordeal; she has not been charged because she too claims the fetus was not alive. She does admit to cutting the umbilical cord and delivering the placenta, as well as monitoring the well-being of the fetuses’ mother. There are a few major discrepancies in this story, which I’m sure will be sorted out.
The mother of the fetus had believed she was 24 weeks pregnant, but it was later found out that she wasn’t that far along in her pregnancy. Whatever the case, this girl had been having a normal pregnancy and had it been allowed to continue; there would have been a beautiful baby boy born sometime in the near future. Instead, his loving grandmother decided the world would be better without him.
Miramar Police began investigating the case on March 11, 2009 following an anonymous text message to a detective stating, “Doug’s mother killed his sisters’ baby”. The caller also claims to have seen pictures of the fetus on a cell phone and it was alive.
Ms. Rainey was arrested on March 12, 2009 by Miramar Police and is being represented by a public defender, Howard Finkelstein. On Friday March 13, 2009—how fitting is this date for her to appear in court, she appeared in front of Judge John Hurley for a hearing on her bond amount. Before raising her bond to almost 14 times the original amount, he told her that her actions were “..Tantamount to murder”. As he raised her bond from $14,000 to $185,000 he told her that a “..Child’s life was terminated”. Mr. Finkelstein is requesting a new bond hearing saying that Judge Hurley should recuse himself from the case because his emotions are interfering.
Now, I don’t consider myself a genius or supremely godly or anything of the like, but what person WOULDN’T let their emotions get involved in something like this. I mean c’mon now, morality and logistics come into play here, he had to do something to intervene, she was going to post her bond and be released back into society. Amen for this guy. Judges are humans too, sometimes an emotion or two will rear their ugly heads, I see nothing wrong with it as long as they don’t overtake the proceedings. I don’t know about anyone else, but I think the bond is fitting. She should have thought about where she would end up before she inserted medications into her teenagers’ vagina and caused that fetus to come out into a toilet. She should have thought about the price of freedom before she put that little boy in a trash bag on the curb for a garbage truck to pick him up.
As of right now, Ms. Rainey is being held in jail in lieu of her bond. She has been charged with multiple crimes, including; termination of a pregnancy, practicing healthcare without a license, child abuse, and improper disposal of a human corpse. The teenaged mother is in the care of DCF and in foster care. No charges have been filed against her in this case. I will update the story when something further is available.
Editor’s Notes: You may notice that I didn’t choose a category for this story. Since I didn’t know why Tonuya decided to murder her daughter’s child, and there was no obvious motive, I was stumped. I figured I’d go with Uncategorized for now, until one of you good people comes up with a better idea
Stupid Question, But Does Tonuya Scheniell Rainey Deserve Hell?
- Just put her in a trash bag and send her on down (88%, 213 Votes)
- No (12%, 28 Votes)
Total Voters: 241
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85 Comments »
Maybe it was a fucked up sense of pride Max. She didnt want people gosiping about her and her pregnant teen. Whatever her reason, it was a fucked up thing to do. Not just to the baby, but to her daughter as well.
I have suffered several miscarrages over the years and one still birth. Its a terrible thing to have to deal with. But to have someone actually murder your unborn child….i cant imagine this young girls grief. Her mother has betrayed her trust in the worst imaginable way.
Pass me a plastic bag and ill personally throw this bitch in the bin.
Excellent Amy, that makes perfect sense. Pride it is. How’d you get so smart?
Id like to be able to say it has taken years of dedication and practice to be so damn clever…but in reality, i just fluke it day by day, lol.
whats the point of even making condoms or birth control anymore?
I agree…pride, NOT everyone condones teen pregnancy. However, there are legal channels…DUH, adoption.
ok, so i’m pro-choice, and i believe abortion is a right that a woman has, but this crosses that line for me. there’s a difference when the abortion is forced by someone else.
So I guess that means you don’t think the Justices of the Supreme Court had this in mind when they decided Roe v Wade?
Yes, I would have to agree with you on that emily rachel. I’d also have to say that I hope this very ugly woman falls into a vat of ‘mystery meat’ in the prison kitchen.
OK so number 1, Im hoping that there will be something about the pharmacist getting charged. Im thinking when you use your job this way and hand out prescriptions without an order it isn’t legal, at least where I live there is consequences behind this. Number 2, if her daughter was wanting to keep this baby it’s hard to believe she would have let her mom do this and didn’t call 911 while her mom was out getting smashed while she was in labor. Number 3, if the daughter did go along with it why not just go to a clinic, where there is trained medical professionals who have some experience in this, obviously this POS could have cared less about the welfare of the baby OR his mother to allow her daughter to go through this!
“if her daughter was wanting to keep this baby it’s hard to believe she would have let her mom do this and didn’t call 911 while her mom was out getting smashed while she was in labor”
-Amen to that.
I second that! Call me crazy but it seems like that daughter was in on it, too and the mother is just taking the fall for everyone.
I don’t know. I suspect that the teen was (as most teens are) ambivalent. She probably did want the baby, as a way of keeping the babydaddy near her, as a way of getting attention, or maybe for the “someone to love me forever” reason. She was probably pissed at her mom for taking away the thing she wanted, but possibly a little relieved.
Regardless, I doubt that if the pregnant child was upset it had anything to do with the actual killing of the fetus. It’s highly doubtful that anyone raised with such a mother as this murderess would have a highly developed sense of moral development. So I suspect that the impact to the fetus was NOT the main focus (thus no call to 911, or attempt to save it), but rather the fact that she was denied what she WANTED.
I agree…
when i read this, that was the first thing i thought. the daughter probably didn’t want the baby, but after seeing him and holding him, most likely had second thoughts. too bad her mother is the devil incarnate…
“Mr. Finkelstein is requesting a new bond hearing saying that Judge Hurley should recuse himself from the case because his emotions are interfering.”
OK, in the past I have backed up some fucked up things lawyers have gotten away with, However, this is a bit exreme for the line of lork. How can this Mr. Finkelstein accuse the judge of having feelings? Tonuya is guilty as sin. Its obvious. I’m just disgusted with the whole case.
I’m sorry, but the name Mr. Finkelstein sounds like a character from a really bad 70′s sitcom. Any judge, hell, any “thinking” person who hears the details of the case is going to have strong emotions.
This story sounds really weird to me, partly because of the reasons Jessica listed above. However- if it went down the way the story says- then this woman definitely deserves hell. While I am super pro-choice, this does not really fall into the category of “is abortion right or wrong”- this is a case of someone being forced to do something against their will. That’s the same as rape.
What is wrong with people? There are safe and legal abortions available, last I checked. This was just ridiculously stupid and more inhumane than anything. But, I am also pro-choice and I feel along the same lines as diana. No one should have been forced into anything against their will. That is wrong.
But it’s ok to force people to die, especially if they do dumb shit like this. Someone should die, mommy, daughter or both.
Deeper thinking begs the question: Would baby have had a “normal” life if it had survived? Probably not.
Even the most caring mom risk feeding their baby rocket fuel chemicals in its baby formula.
Death will come, yes…sooner or later.
I don’t know how Howard Finkelstein could live with himself trying to defend a baby killer.
Why not just skull drag the little slut to the abortion clinic?
This case has nothing to do with abortion rights to safe +legal abortions. Nothing. This is about a monster forcing an unwanted abortion on her child. I really don’t think suggesting she go get a proper abortion is relevant because she was never going to have one anyway. Not trying to be a jerk, thats just the way I understood the story.
***Update, as promised.***
Seems as if everyone doesn’t agree with the bail set by Judge Hurley. As promised, the public defenders office took the case to the appeals court. Mr Finkelstein pointed out to the court that Ms. Rainey only makes about $1000 every 2 weeks, he also stated that since she hadn’t been charged with murder–a term which Judge Hurley used while raising her bond, that he was overstepping his boundaries. Ms. Raineys bond was lowered back to the original sum of $14,000, . is currently out on bond. She was released Saturday morning after her family posted the set bond.
Her family appeared at her bond reduction hearing; her husband and sister testified on her behalf. Claiming she is a good mother to her 8 (yes, EIGHT) children. 2 of her spawn are college students.
The Miramar Police have been asked why Ms. Rainey hasn’t been charged with murder, and it has to do with Florida Law.
Apparently, the State of Florida doesn’t consider a fetus a “human being” until it is 24 weeks along. This fetus was just days shy of that.
Ms. Rainey still stands to go to trial on the 4 felonies listed above; and there isnothing indicating that a murder charge will be added to the list.
Upon reading up on this story, I am having more and more trouble understanding alot of things about it.
First, where was her “husband” during all of this. Did he have anything to do with this?
Second, I want to address the comment above about the daughter calling/not calling 911.
I am not condoning/condemning anything she did. Just let me say this. We do NOT know the kind of enviornment she was raised in. We do NOT know the temperament of her mother/father. We do NOT know if she is “in her right mind”–does she have an IQ over 100 or no? All Im saying is we dont know how easily persuaded she is; and we dont know if she was threatened to take the medication or if she called the police.
There are alot of questions that I can’t seem to find the answers to; and believe me I am trying. I feel like its my responsibility since I posted the article, and I am doing my best to answer them for you. Please be patient, and I will fill you in as I learn more.
-Thanks Amanda
Good questions, all. I agree with you – I posted above that I suspect the daughter does not have a strong sense of moral development, and that any anger she felt was because she was denied what she wanted, and not because the baby’s life was so precious.
I am leaning more and more towards the idea of making “failure to report death of a fetus” a serious felony crime. I hate (HATE) the thought of new laws, but this one seems like it’s needed. Make it a 25-year sentence – something really serious.
Not that it matters, but the part about “she only makes $1000.00 ever two weeks” seems odd to me. Maybe the cost of living is way higher, but that’s more than my base pay and I make a decent living…
WTF?
Is this how you save money on an abortion? Do it yourself?
And for God’s sake, I hope this animal is still not employed as a “surgical technician.” I wouldn’t want her within 100 yards of my unconcious body.
lol. yeah.
Just wait till some liberal media-type gets a hold of this story. It could easily be twisted to show what happens when people can’t afford health insurance. Call in the masses! I think we need a protest for this poor woman.
Not that I have any idea of where the law stands but I assume that being around about 24 weeks (if I read correctly the mother thought she was further alon than that) a legal termination wasn’t on the cards – I assume there is a point of no return.
That being the case the DIY was the only option. Oh … apart from the other things that NORMAL PEOPLE DO …. like adoption and whatnot.
I abandoned my last posting because what I was saying turned into a pile of babble….
I feel that I am pro-INFORMED-Choice – a woman shoud know about alternatives, physical and mental side affects that may occur after an abortion. Medically abortion equates to a forced or induced miscarriage and miscarriages are usually devastating.
As far as Tonuya goes – this was NOT her choice at all.
Given that Tonuya makes $500 a week or about $62.50 / child, I am sure that she gets some type of assistance; I pay $120 / week for child support and that is the begining of what else I pay….
Because this was NOT Tonuya’s place to make this “choice” she is a murderer – plain and simple no matter how old the fetus was at the time.
goddamn, enough stories about mothers and their children please
Not that I like these stories either, but such proves that woman & men are equal – and that there maybe a 1 to 1 ratio in hell, so EVERYONE will be married…….
Does this encourage anyone to run to a church and repent?
Probably shouldnt read my next one then.
Just advance warning.
The contributors don’t commit the crimes, they just report them.
wanna see a story posted about something else? feel free to write one.
Okay, I am going to say this and I know that not everyone will agree with me but this is how I feel. I like Amy have had several miscarriages and the way that they hurt my heart and the first one my body was unbelieveable. At 23 weeks this girl had felt that baby twisting and was able to feel it’s heartbeat but I am a firm believer that if it has a heart beat that it can be murdered. I do not believe in abortion because we as pregnant mothers are still mothers and it is our job to protect our helpless offspring.
My husband and I are finally pregnant again with twins and it looks liek everything is going to go well and I cried over this story. Everyday I look forward to waking up a little bigger and picking out clothes and choosing names and I can’t imagine someone being this heartless to a child that they had never met. This baby didn’t even have the chance to cry and keep everyone up all night. I have got to stop writing about this one because I am so upset.
No disagreement here.
Not that it matters but I am anti-abortion, and pro-choice. That means that I would never have one, would not allow my daughter to have one, and would encourage anyone who came to me for advice to not have one. But it’s not my place to decide for others.
A fetus is a unique being. It is not able to survive when removed from the host body, and until it is capable of that, I can’t think of it legally as a “baby” – but if it was in MY body, hell yes, it would be a baby. Anyway, I don’t even agree that abortion should be legal until the fetus is viable. Abortion, if we are to allow it, should be only allowed until 3 months. That’s a random number, but it’s an even third, and there is no possibility that the fetus is viable at that point.
I guess that I would rather see the fetus aborted than born into a neglectful dysfunctional home where the child eventually becomes a target for abuse. At least it’s over fast – and if there is a soul in there (I don’t know, and I don’t care) and there is a God (I don’t know, and I don’t care), he will call the soul back quickly. And then, it’s between the mother and God.
Once the baby is viable, all bets are off. In my mind, it’s murder. At 23 weeks it’s morally murder. But even if it is legally not murder, killing someone else’s baby is murder.
I absolutely agree with Lewbell 100%.
From the time a sperm fertilizes an egg; there is life. When there is life and it is taken away it is murder. I don’t understand how our government can step in and put a “date” on when life begins.
I know that this topic will never be fully resolved where 100% of people agree 100%; I myself cant 100% say whether it’s right or wrong 100% of the time.
I know it appears that I just contradicted myself in the above statements; but let me explain. While I believe life begins at conception; I do think there are situations where abortion is allowable.
Cases of rape and incest are probably the most allowable, in my opinion. I know there are other choices, but not everyone has the ability to face the reality of what happened to them for 9 months. I think it should be their decision—not our governments, not yours, not mine, ONLY theirs. I was the victim of a rape that resulted in pregnancy; and I can tell you that unless you’ve been there you don’t know the emotions you go through daily. You don’t know the horrors that go through your mind hourly, imagining you could be breeding a monster. I kept my baby; and I’m glad I did. Some people aren’t able to face the fact that you may look at that horrible persons face for the rest of your life. My daughter is the sun in my sky, the stars to my moon and I couldn’t imagine my life had I made the other decision. That’s my point—it was MY decision. This isn’t something someone else can choose for someone else. The only person who knows what is right for someone, is them.
I adamantly disagree with people who use abortion as their go-to form of birth control. I think their doctor, not the government, needs to step in and demand they use something different. From a medical stand point, the damage an abortion causes to a body is something that should concern a doctor, especially when its done multiple times to one body.
I appear to be a big contradiction to myself; and I know this. This goes on in my head everyday. This debate isn’t black and white, there are MANY grey areas. What it boils down to for me is that NOBODY can make the decision for you; the government shouldn’t be able to tell you that something you do with your body is illegal. I do however agree with limits on how late they can occur. When a baby would be viable outside of the womb, it is too late to kill it. I do think that “live birth” abortions are disgusting in any circumstance, a former Illinois Senator is a big proponent of these.
When this mother made her daughter abort her child; she did a lot of damage. I always thought a mother was supposed to try her damnedest to avoid this. Ms. Rainey committed a crime. She made the decision for someone else against their will; and someone should make a decision against her hers.
I think the whole ‘right to abortion’ issue is a moot point here. The baby was born, and I’ll bet it was alive. If so, it was murder. If not, refer to whatever ‘mishandling a corpse’ law would apply in this area.
I think they are both guilty, but that will come to light when the case goes on.
This story is just disgusting. Why wouldn’t the daughter call someone… anyone… for help after delivering a baby? This is a perfect example of someone who should be sterilized. Yes, she’s a child herself, but if her baby was alive and she didn’t do anything to save it… fuck her. That just shows a complete lack of maternal instinct. Fuck both of them.
I guess I’m more apt to give the girl some leniency, I can’t seem to find any information relating to the girl thus far, believe me the search is still on.
Every article I have read, uses the word “forced”, and I can’t seem to get past that. Maybe I’m still naive when it comes to this kind of stuff; being a mom makes me WANT to believe she did everything in her power to prevent this. Being a human makes me want to believe it.
I don’t know if she was intimidated by her mother; and I have this overwhelming feeling in my gut that tells me she was, and would have done anything she was told to do by her.
I know where you’re all coming from–of course, and I am looking for answers.
I agree wholeheartedly that if she was able to gain assistance for herself and her fetus/baby and DIDNT (before, during, and after the “drugging”), that she should be charged right along with her mother, AND there should be a murder charged added to the list.
I also wanted to make a correction to the article, I have found out what the drug was that was used, its RU-486. Usually this drug is used in the first few months to abort a fetus, using it this late is what made it illegal. RU-486 aka Mifeprex, is also used in a combo with Misoprostol, a prostoglandin (progesterone blocker, progesterone is NEEDED to maintain a pregnancy) , to make the “Morning After Pill”.
I disagree with punishing the daughter, assuming that the facts are even close to correct. In this case, the child was under her mother’s controls.
I don’t believe that this girl could possibly have a good moral development, with a mother like that. So, while to an adult, this issue is a question of murder, to this teenager, I expect that it was less about the developing fetus, and more about her own personal desire to have a baby. So, when Mama forced her to take drugs to kill the fetus, she saw it more in terms of a really really bad “grounding”, and not as the murder of an infant.
Chalk up another reason why easily-obtained legal abortions are bad. It not only encourages risky behavior, it cheapens the value of life.
Min_duhh:
I was unable to reply to you so I had to do it this way, but I want to give you a bow. I know that you didn’t keep your daughter for people to praise your actions but I have the utmost respect for you. I have seen a lot of people that have been raped keep those babies and it seems like God gave you something to hold on to that brought joy into your life. I look at the fact that our babies are 12 weeks and in the sonogram you can see their heads, feet, hands, and it is miraculous. Now, I know that they can’t survive outside of my body but I also believe that life starts at conception. I do not understand a lot of things but I do believe that every child deserves a chance in this world.
I would never propose to tell a woman what to do but at the same time, I have seen women use abortion as birth control. Instead of using protection, they just go to a doctor and have this “thing” removed. I feel that a line has to be drawn somewhere or else crazy stuff like live birth abortion begins to happen. Also, if something is okay there shouldn’t be so many women who have had one begin to have emotional distress.
Now, back to this story, I do not believe that the daughter is telling the whole truth.
all racists should be spayed and nudered so they cant reproduce.
Hail SpongeBob!!!!!!!!!!!!!
nudered? what does that mean? we should take their clothes?
Dont you mean “sieg heil” you stupid fucking kyke you are nothing but a laptop gangster, joker and you are disgracing the whole aryan nations by coming on here pretending to be one of us probably just some 14 or 15 year old kid who thinks he is an aryan just because he can shave his head and try to talk the talk on his moms computer do everyone a favor and drink some gasoline
? Sieg Heil ?
“you are disgracing the whole aryan nations”
is that even possible?
-editor
Oh hell. Please don’t fucking reproduce. By the way, you spelled kike wrong you piece of dog shit. You are disgracing the whole aryan nations by coming on here and not being able to properly spell your racist shitbag insults.
I’m going to have to classify this one as either Greed or Pride. Either her daughter’s baby was going to be an embarassment, or a financial burden.
What a piece of shit.
let the animals eat themselves. one less dog to feed.
“I didn’t know why Tonuya decided to murder her daughter’s child…”
My guess would be money. It almost always comes down to money. Being that her daughter was so irresponsible as to become pregnant at 16, I wouldn’t bet the farm on her getting a job or an education in order to support the child she was carrying. Mommy Dearest viewed her would-be grandchild as simply another mouth to feed.
I work as a social worker, and I go into houses everyday where the mom is single, had her kids at age 14, 15, etc, and now no one can pay the bills, and there are 10 kids from 10 different fathers running around.
Here’s the thing, yes this was illegal, and it was pretty stupid, but this mother doesn’t deserve hell for this. Have you ever though that, instead of pride, she didn’t want her daughter having a child at 16 b/c she wanted her daughter to have more opportunities and not be saddled with a kid at such a young age?
What I don’t understand is why didn’t she just take her daughter in to get an abortion? Too expensive? I don’t get it.
First off, its case workers like you who drop the ball. Did you not notice that she was “forced” into killing her soon to be born healthy baby. Forced. That is why she didn’t take her to a clinic. She could have kicked her out. Even if the bitch didn’t want her 16 year old girl to be “saddled” with a baby, she had no right to take the life from her womb and destroy it. You have never miscarried Matt. The pain both mentally and physically can be devastating. Also, this baby boy might have been born to a loving mother. Even at 16 many women are able to be good moms. No it isn’t easy, and no I am not speaking from experience. Maybe the 16 year old would have made better choices as most new mothers do. Maybe she would have been Mom of the year. Maybe she would have been on your case-list in a few years. There are a million maybes. No one person can know. Not you nor the POS featured in the article. The point is it was forced. No one has the right to say, “Oh, she is young, so lets kill her unborn.”
abortions are about 400 dollars, depending where you go. she should have done it that way, or set major ground rules for her pregnant daughter, or taken advantage of safe haven and adoption laws. anything other than forcing her daughter to an unsafe abortion. stupid female
I really do not see how this is any different than abortion. I am pro life and do not agree with anyone taking the life of an unborn baby. Apparently you can go to a clinic and get an abortion or go to a clinic and get drugs that can cause an abortion. What’s the difference? The girl is under 18 and the parent has the say so, so there is no difference whatsoever as the end result is the same. DEAD FETUS.
You’re kidding. You don’t see a difference between someone forcing their child to poison themselves to end the life of a fetus and an adult choosing an abortion for themselves?
Really?
I don’t care if you’re pro-life, I really don’t. Good for you. Comparing what is essentially an assault of the 16 year old in this story to an abortion is an argument that cannot be taken seriously by any rational person.
Wow. You’re disgusting. I have no respect for you at all.
Actually, a parent can’t legally force a child to obtain an elective abortion. People who love to talk about “choice” claim that the reason abortion needs to stay legal is that NO ONE has the right to make that decision for anyone else, including parents. (I’ve even heard someone say that she favored legal abortion because if the government starts telling people they can’t have abortions, it’s only a short slippery slope away from telling people that they MUST. There’s so much wrong with this argument that it rather makes me want to scream, but it supports my point that, ostensibly at least, and certainly in the minds of more moderate abortion advocates, the point of abortion being legal is that every woman gets to choose for herself in every case.) What Tonuya Rainey did would have been not only morally abhorrent, but illegal, even if she had dragged her daughter kicking and screaming into the most “reputable” clinic in town. In fact, the reason she “had to” resort to obtaining drugs illegally and putting her daughter through this ordeal without medical supervision was that no doctor would have performed an elective abortion on the mother’s parental authority without the daughter’s explicit consent.
Exactly. IMHO, pro-choice means just that – wanting to make sure each woman has the right to choose to continue or not continue a pregnancy.
I am pro-choice about a great many things, abortion being one of them. I also support a womans right to go jogging without a bra, and a mans right to galumph around the beach in a speedo. It’s not pretty in most cases, but eh, if that’s what they want, this is America and personal decisions shouldn’t be legislated.
I’m not pro-abortion, I’m pro-choice. It’s got to remain an option with very strict guidelines, or the wire coat hangar industry will suddenly be rolling in cash and the morgue will have more bodies than it can handle. Don’t believe me? Then you know nothing about human desperation.
When there is finally a way to control whether you become pregnant that is not only safe and non-invasive, but 100% effective and very inexpensive, then abortion has to remain on the table. I foresee a future when that will happen, It’s only a matter of time but for now it’s not an option.
There are too many medical reasons in favor of pro-choice to list, that have nothing to do with the desire to bring a baby to term – do you think that only people who don’t want the baby would have an abortion? I’m not answering this for you. Think hard.
I wonder if Squeezeboxx has bothered to read the comments on this article. We have commenters here who identify as “super pro-choice,” and commenters who firmly believe that life begins at conception, and various shades in between – but we ALL agree that what Tonuya Rainey did was unconscionable. This isn’t about the morality of abortion, this is about a mother’s violation of her daughter.
Those concerned about the consequences of the coming abortion bans need not trouble themselves about the theoretical problem of women surreptitiously scraping out their insides with coathangers. Not only is there no evidence of numerous American women having died from self-inflicted abortions in the past, there is no evidence of women who live in countries where abortion is currently banned dying from them either.
This is easily demonstrated in a variety of ways. In 1973, there were approximately 106 million women living in the United States, of whom 876,208 died that year. If 20,000 women had died by coathanger, it would have been the seventh leading cause of female death at 18.8 per 100,000, putting it right between diabetes mellititus and arteriosclerosis. In fact, a mere 10,000 deaths by coathanger would have still made the top ten, beating out suicide by a comfortable 2,090 female corpses.
And what about women who have died while obtaining legal abortions ? ( Does Kermit Gosnell ring a bell ? )
Indeed, the coathanger remains a favored icon of feminists, who brandish it as a symbol of anti-abortion activists’ purported indifference to women’s lives. Which of course is ludicrous.Though I wonder, if the unborn baby who is about to be aborted were female would she have a right to choose life for herself ?
Some activists who were very influential in the legalization of abortion have since come to believe that abortion is morally wrong, and they have admitted that the coat-hanger statistic was fabricated. In fact, the majority of illegal abortions before Roe v. Wade were performed in doctors’ offices, by medical professionals.
Absolutely Aletheia, the dreaded “coat hanger” statistic was fabricated, and if they lie to you about that what else are they lying about ?
- This is a topic that was brought up by others before I noticed it last night. And it is a legitimate topic that has a place and should be debated.
If someone says “I’m pro-choice”, I am most likely going to comment, because I am anti-abortion….not anti-choice. As I have stated before, abortion has nothing at all to do with “choice”.
And sadly, Mulch, men have very little recourse if the woman carrying their child decides to abort. Men have long too often been thought of as disposable when it comes to parenting…obsolete and insignificant.
thats the fucked up thing. there is a small movement in the UK where men are trying to get the right to be a part of the decision process in to abortions. There are men, maybe not a lot, that do want to have the child.
But people who have a penis are more often than not ignored when it comes to kids
See, I wish men could have more of a say, and I wish it was more often a discussion, but what it comes down to for me is that you cannot force one human being to keep another alive with their body. And unfortunately there is no other option for a fetus, either the mother has to choose to keep that fetus alive using her own body as life support, or there is nothing else that will work. The fetus doesn’t have MORE rights, or LESS rights, imho than any other human. None of us have the right to force another human to keep us alive with their own blood and organs.
So until men can take over that choice, there isn’t much option there.
As far as abortion not being about choice, or the pro-choice people not being about choice – that’s laughable, and I do not tend to tolerate other people telling me what my stand is when I have spent SO much time thinking and researching it. I will speak for my own intentions and self. If a human does not wish to keep another human alive through parasitic means from their own body, abortion IS the only current choice to change that once it’s started.
I had hyperemesis. I threw up between four and eight times every single day. I was hospitalized more than once. I lost fifty pounds while pregnant! My hair fell out by the handful. I have never in my life been that ill. My daughter is alive only because she, as a fetus, basically cannibalized my internal organs.
I chose to let that happen. My daughter is a choice, a beloved choice.
But I do not believe I or anyone has any right to tell any other human they must go through that. It must be up to each person and their doctor.
Forlorn,
I can speak from personal experience that I felt I had no “choice” in the matter. No, I was not forced…but if I felt I had unlimited “choice” I wouldn’t have aborted. Women in that situation feel as if they have no choices, which is why they pick the worst decision. It’s an unbearably helpless place to be.
I think women deserve better than abortion, and know first hand the guilt that plagues them afterwards…every single day. And the lies they are told beforehand. “You’ll forget”, “It isn’t a human”, “You won’t feel any pain”, “It’s just tissue”..etc…
Making women feel as if an abortion will somehow “empower” them is a disgrace…and the majority of women who had one out of unmitigated desperation will not tell you they felt “empowered” afterwards. Just empty and unsure if they are capable are living their life with daily regret and pain.
Maelstrom, I am so very sorry to know you have been through this. Unfortunately, your experience isn’t at all uncommon. Many, many women would have CHOSEN to carry their babies to term, and either keep them or give them up for adoption, if they felt that choice had been available to them. Are you familiar with the organization Feminists for Life? Like Susan B. Anthony and most of the other early feminists, they believe that abortion is a crime against women as well as against the unborn. One of their slogans is “Women deserve better.” They are awesome. :)
Aletheia,
It was my own fault for being a teenage bonehead. I wasn’t using protection…and BOOM…gee, what happens ? I found myself pregnant, alone, beyond desperate, and helpless. – I made the wrong decision, and live with that daily. I am positive other women feel the same way I do, and that breaks my heart. But thank you for your kind words. :)
Several years ago I had a health scare and decided to go to confession….it was one of those “Shit, I might as well go because perhaps I’m wrong about this whole atheism thing”. And I found forgiveness from the least likely of places. I confessed to everything, and for the first time wasn’t condemned to hell by the priest, wasn’t called a “murderer”, wasn’t yelled at or made to feel stupid and evil….he just listened to me, and didn’t judge me on the spot. – I’m still atheist, but came away from that confession a changed person. – Certainly this isn’t the answer for everyone, and every woman’s story is unique. I wouldn’t dare to compare my situation with anyone else, nor pretend that I understand all the reasons why women feel so desperate they have an abortion.
I can say that I used to be the hardest of hard core abortion supporters, and would mock people like me. But also found myself shuddering when ever the topic of abortion was mentioned, and lashing out at anyone who said they were against it. I was very angry and very guilt ridden. – Anger usually masks the hurt. Finally one day I decided to own up to what I did, look at pictures, call myself out, face it, and came to a totally different perspective on the matter. I also abhor the fact that any woman might be feeling what I did, and let’s be honest, still do, and would never wish the amount of pain I feel on anyone.
I am familiar with “Feminists for life”, and absolutely adore them. – Thank you for including that blog…I bookmarked it for my own, and would love to kiss the person who wrote it.
Thanks for your kind words, and for sharing your story. I have to admire your strength and courage in looking at yourself and your actions honestly. Not everyone has that kind of integrity.
Aletheia,
Well, thank you for that. I’ve been having a crappy day thus far…and that means the world to me. It especially means a lot coming from one of my favorite people on this site. :)
Abortion was illegal in South Africa until 1997, numerous women did die as a result of “back street abortions” and often those that survived the operation had their insides butchered.
As with any illegal act, statistics are unreliable as no one involved in the operation is going to admit that this was the cause of death otheriwse they will be arrested and often the women died at home days later as a result of infections where the cause of death would be listed as the infection.
Having lived in a country where it has been illegal and then legalized, regardless of my own views I would not want abortions banned agained.
I doubt highly they will be banned all together. Butt he restrictions placed apon them will hopefully make people see that responsibility is the best choice.
@CTG…while I’m not denying that women have resorted to giving themselves abortions – I know for a fact they have and died as a result. However, as you said statistics are unreliable on the number. And it must be said that when the numbers were fabricated in America, I have no doubt that other countries would follow in those same foot steps and fabricate numbers as well. They could scream any number they wished, call it “intolerable” and demand that abortion be made legal. – Though it is interesting that no one comments on the deaths of women who have received LEGAL abortions.
@Forlorn. I too curl my lip at people who harass women already in a desperate situation at any abortion clinic. Those days are fading fast, and most sane people realize that making a woman feel worse does no good, and certainly is not an act of compassion. I have zero respect for those people. – At the same time, any patient going in for a medical procedure- and we’ll call abortion a medical procedure right now for sake of argument, should be well informed about that procedure and exactly what it entails. The patient should be allowed to hear the heart beat and see an ultrasound if she so desires, and should not be lied to about the size of the unborn child. – If I go in for surgery, I want to know exactly what is going to happen. – Women should have access to that information, and yet it is hidden because most people realize that if a woman hears the heart beat or sees an ultrasound she will decide against abortion and walk out. – No patients, no money.
And Mulch, I totally and completely agree with what you said. It’s amazing to me how one act that does still require two genders in order to create a life, needs only one member of that gender to determine whether or not the life created will be allowed to be born alive. The other gender is eradicated, and pushed aside….almost willingly because it is considered a “woman’s right”. But there again….if the unborn is a female shouldn’t she then be entitled to choose life for herself ? That is a pretty simple question.
Maelstrom, I definitely agree there should be no lies about any of it, and that because of the import of the procedure, that it will result in a death (though I know some argue about that, and allowing the people undergoing the procedure to make up their own minds about the information out there is important), that a mother in a place to have to make that choice should be offered any help – counseling, connection with adoption services, even housing and medical care – that might help her choose to continue the pregnancy.
And I am utterly disgusted by anyone who uses abortion as birth control over and over. I tended to be fertile as all get out, and because I could not carry another child with my exhusband (the abuse became so much worse when pregnant) I got my tubes tied. It breaks my heart now because I would love to share a child with Handsome -though he is an incredible and wonderful stepfather.
But if birth control had failed again, my only choices would have been to abort or carry another child through an abusive hell of a pregnancy (if I survived it) and bring them into a world where they’d have to watch their mother being abused.
I’ve been faced with the thought of abortion before. My ex demanded I abort our daughter when one of her tests showed she might have spina bifida (she did not). My mother applied a lot of pressure to abort my eldest when I was 18 and pregnant.
It wasn’t something I could do. It’s upsetting to me that someone would ever be blase about it enough to get abortion after abortion instead of getting their tubes tied.
And I do think people on both sides need to hear each other out without propaganda. But because a fetus can only survive through parasitic action, until we can let someone else carry that fetus, I can’t condone telling anyone else they must continue to undergo that parasitic action.
For me it’s about the complete sovereignty one must have over their own body, which at best should be a sovereignty managed with thoughtfulness and responsibility.
@Maelstrom:
I thought you might find this interesting.
http://truth-unleashed.blogspot.com/2011/02/beyond-life-and-choice-call-for-clarity.html
Brilliant, Aletheia !!!! And thank you….my thoughts almost exactly on the issue.
I do wish more people would read that…step back and read that. I think a whole new level of debate would open.
Hi Maelstrom what I meant by back street abortions was “medical professionals” charging exorbitant prices for women to go to dingy rooms in houses and have the sac broken by a dirty medical instrument.
Thats how desperate these women were, they borrowed money they didnt have to have the procedure done under horrible conditions all with the fear of being arrested and then paid the price with their life.
And the “medical professionals” got wealthy.
@ Forlorn and Cape Town Girl…
I hear everything you’re both saying. And agree with a lot of it.
In the end I value and desire open discussion about this issue without propaganda, and a debate that turns ugly and dismissive. I truly value all opinions on the matter, and a better understanding of both sides is so helpful and refreshing.
Thank you both !!! You girls rock !!! :)
I’ll second that. I know a lot of people, on both sides of this issue, who can’t debate it without losing their heads and getting nasty. With your nuanced approach to the issue and your use of logical reasoning rather than emotional invective, you may not have changed my mind, but you have certainly won my respect.
Maelstrom, there are only a handful of people on this site I would have entered into a discussion with on this topic.
You are one of them, I have seen posts where you argue passionately but rationally on the subject. A subject which is so deeply personal to each and every woman pretty much like someones relationship or lack thereof with their Higher Power.
Discussions like these are one of the reasons I love this blog.
Maelstrom, I hope you know I <3 you. I think if I can see you're a human who arrived at your opinion after soul-searching and study and you can see that I am the same despite reaching a different conclusion – well, I wish more of the loudest speakers on both sides would see that.
I hate that too many on both sides see a woman’s womb as a place to battle over agendas. I wish they’d see a woman’s face, her heart, her thinking first, because each of the women facing that will be different.
I am so grateful for my children. I wish motherhood was as joyous and wonderful for everyone.
Absolutely Forlorn, and I love you as well….and I love CTG equally.
I’m kind of at a loss for words right now. Thank you so much !!
I’m so glad to call you guys my friends. Any other group would have exploded over this issue. We’re usually able to discuss it. Sure, sometimes it comes close to getting out of hand simply because of the nature of the subject. But it only comes close. :)
One thing everyone agrees on – the only solution is to be able to allow women to control when they conceive with 100% reliability, inexpensively and non-surgically. Hopefully someday soon this entire debate will go the way of the dodo.
Thank you, Aletheia, for the link to that well-written, thoughtful article. I, too, have bookmarked it for future reference as I plan to examine my own thought processes, euphemisms, beliefs, and word choices.
It’s not completely ludicrous. Most anti-choicers (whom I will not call pro-lifers as it insinuates pro-choicers are anti-life) do care about women’s health and life; however, there are those who honestly do not give a tinker’s damn about the actual women involved.
I tend to curl my lip at avid anti-choicers who march around harassing women going into a Planned Parenthood (an organization which, btw, helped me bring my baby to term when I did not have insurance) who have also not adopted any of these “unwanted” babies they are so vociferously claiming to be defending.
But I doubt that describes most anti-choicers.
I love my babies very deeply. But I also believe a person must have sovereignty over their own body, including what may live inside it. There are also a lot of women who have aborted non-viable babies who were heartbroken by the loss. Pregnancy is dangerous. No matter how much I adore babies, I can’t condone forcing anyone to remain pregnant.
There’s a lot of propaganda on both sides. Too much. It should be a very personal decision between a woman and her doctor and until men are able to carry babies (and can thus take over the pregnancy) no one else.
I can’t read the stories here of destroyed and murdered children, tortured for years, and be anti-choice. If only some of those babies had known no pain.
Though I just noticed you said “the coming bans” on abortion, and I deeply doubt abortion will ever be really banned. Some states may try, but it will never be federally illegal.
Why is this a topic here? Just asking.
Me old school conservative says its no one’s business if a woman gets an abortion. It should be a decision between the mother and father. The dad skips out then the mother needs to sadly carry the load of the question.
I have watched abortion turn in to the newest contriceptive and yes it disgusts me. But again not my choice. I am a responsible human being. I understand and accept the fact that the choices I make now can and will kick me in the nuts later in life.
It’s an easy concept to understand but incredibly hard for more and more people to understand and accept.
Yes I believe in God. Strongly. No my faith is not open to discussion unless you want my tripple wide doc planted where it hurts the most.
Mulch, you are absolutely one of my favorite conservatives. FWIW, I believe very strongly in God, as well. :)
I wish more parents were responsible. I wish more people were. And you’re right, this is not the place to debate abortion, so I will leave off.
I am neither far right nor right of center. I am conservative where I feel it needs to be. Thanks to my mother I am a socialist where is needs to be. The very young, the old and the handicapped. The rest? Well if you can work physically but don’t well hunger is a great motivator.
I want the best education for my daughter. But she is not getting it. I am always on her teachers ass about one thing or another. when I spend weekends with her we are reading and going over homework. Why do I feel alone in that? I read about so many people bitching about lazy or bad teachers but do NOTHING. Why?
The only people I hate starts with criminals. Not just rapists or child abusers but all. Thieves, muggers drunk drivers. the whole deal. You fuck up you should be punished. But after that punishment has been carried out then we need to figure out how to make that criminal productive agaon. Education and training. So simple aint it? But most liberals don’t care about simple. “it can’t be simple” But it is.
I am a very simple man. I have high standards for myself and I expect my friends to keep my standards. Fuck it up I’ll give you a single chance. Fuck it again I say piss the fuck off.
Well jeez, the coat hanger comment was a metaphor. I don’t think women sat in dark alleys and scraped their wombs with a coat hangar.