Reyna Valentino
I’ve been here on PYSIH for a few months now and my time here has caused me to take inventory of my life. I used to get upset because I couldn’t figure out why my Pug, Gump, kept getting worms (finally I came to the conclusion that he does as many Pugs do and eats poop). I felt imbecilic because I couldn’t balance my checkbook to save my life ( I still can’t balance it, so I just leave it to the husband).
I was mortified when my home highlight job turned out miserably (I realized this was something you shouldn’t do on your own unless you know how to do it). Sometimes I felt like nothing ever went my way. Now that I’ve been here awhile, I’m learning that some things just aren’t half as important as others. Like my babies; I like to consider myself a good mom—we all make mistakes, but after seeing some of the things I have seen here I’m more confident. I don’t, after all, make them climb into a hot oven or hit them in the face with hot screwdrivers.
I’d like to introduce you to Reyna Valentino, 40. Everyone say “Hi”. Ms. Valentino is mom to five children ranging in age from 8 months to 8 years. Two boys aged 7 and 8, two girls aged 4 and 5, and an infant who’s sex isn’t clear. Ms. Valentino also has a husband, Randy. The happy family resides in Hamtramck, Michigan; neighbors had no idea what was going on in the home. They claim to have seen the children outside playing frequently; always with smiles on their faces.
Shit hit the fan, as they say, on January 23, 2009 when Reyna called police to tell them that she was “hurting her children”. Cops responded to the call, when they got there they were shocked by what they heard from Ms. Valentino’s 4 year old daughter.
My heart is hurt and broke because Momma doesn’t love me anymore.
Mom cooks me like a turkey in the oven. I felt fire. It burned my back.
”She hurts me with a screwdriver all the time”
When she says “hurts me with a screwdriver”, the baby means her mom heats up the screwdriver and smacks her in the face with it. It is also reported that she burned the girls’ eyelids with a heated metal nail. If I had been an officer of the law, I don’t know if I could control myself if a sweet little girl told me something like that; these officers have my utmost respect for remaining professional.
From everything I have read on this story, Reyna seemed to take out all of her frustrations on her two little girls. Her 5 year old daughter didn’t miss out on the fun. She suffered beatings to her legs with a crow-bar.
Ms. Valentino was arrested on that date, and placed in a Detroit Receiving Hospital where she stayed until February 5th when she was arraigned on 2 counts of torture and 2 counts of child abuse in 31st District Court. Her bail was set at 1 million dollars, and her next hearing was for February 12th.
At the 4/12 hearing, Ms. Valentino was represented by her court appointed attorney, Raymond Cassar. He claims she is clearly mentally ill and the charges are ridiculous. Ms. Valentino spoke few words at the hearing stating only that she loved her children and is schizophrenic. Her husband defended her by blaming the system for cutting off their health benefits not allowing them to afford her medication, which she had been off of for 3 to 4 months prior to the incident. Judge Paul Paruk continued her 1 million dollar bond and ordered her to undergo an exclusive psychiatric evaluation. He also agreed to consider lowering her cash only bond after he hears from the doctor she claims to have been visiting on a monthly basis.
This family has faced financial hardships; as has pretty much everyone else in Michigan—but you don’t see them partially cooking their human children. Relatives have jumped to the forefront to defend this woman. Telling everyone who will listen that she isn’t this kind of person, and it’s the disease making decisions for her. My take on that? Well, if you knew she OBVIOUSLY had problems, then why would you leave children solely in her care?
Ms. Valentino was set to appear in front of Judge Paruk on April 2nd for a competency hearing but that was postponed to an undetermined date
There have been no charges filed against the husband because he wasn’t present during the January incident. He was off picking the 2 boys up from school. Ok—so he wasn’t present during one incident, but based on what the little girl said, this wasn’t a onetime incident. Even if he wasn’t present, you cant tell me that there wouldn’t be evidence of abuse. Hold a hot nail to my eyelid, and I’m probably going to have a burn mark. Put me in a hot oven, and I’m probably going to have marks from the rack burned into my skin. Hit me in the face with a hot screwdriver, and I’m probably going to have some kind of mark that’s evidence of abuse. I don’t know if this guy is dumb or what; but he should at the very least be charged with failure to protect his children. C’mon you CANNOT tuell me he didn’t notice at least a few of the marks. In my opinion, its failure to protect because he left them there while he knew what could happen—not only COULD but probably WOULD.
The five children were removed by Children’s Protective Services—our favorite agency here at PYSIH-in 2006 for environmental neglect. The wonder couple regained custody about a year ago. They have now lost their parental rights indefinitely. Ms. Valentino’s attorney said he would fight this decision.
As of right now, April 8, 2009 at 12:54 am Central time, Ms. Valentino is sitting in Wayne County Jail. The five children are in foster care and are said to be happy and prosperous. No word on what Mr. Valentino is doing—hopefully he is contemplating what being a good dad actually means, and that isn’t allowing your children to be tortured.
The Pictures are, from top to bottom
Renya Valentino
Her Husband, Randy Valentino
Renya Valentino with her lawyer in court
Does Reyna Valentino Deserve Hell?
- Yes (81%, 72 Votes)
- No (19%, 17 Votes)
Total Voters: 89
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72 Comments »
This is above and beyond a parent administering corporal punishment, which I am old school and I happen to think that a swat on the butt when your kid is really acting up, not an everyday thing-mind you, is justified. However, many people have anger issues and are not capable of stopping with a swat on the butt. Those people should stick with “time outs”.
But this lady? This is sadistic. That woman calculated odd ways of torturing her kids. She could have killed that child in the oven. I hope she does not have access to those kids again. I cannot imagine anything that a child could do in their day to day lives to be beaten and tortured like that.
Oh. My. God. The sadistic nature of human beings never fails to stun and appall me. Hell yeah Min_Duhh I agree – Daddy Dearest should be charged. He could not have been blind to what was going on in his home, unless he had a red hot nail file in his eye. And CPS? Dear God, will they EVER take the children into account instead of the parents? This is absolutely a case of it is in the best interest of the children to NOT be in their parents custody, especially with a mentally ill mother. Sickening.
“Sybil” comes to mind, as well as “A Child Called It.”
I am just not sure what to think about this one. In her defense, at least she did call the cops on herself. She knew she was doing something wrong and stopped herself, facing the consequences. I am not at all defending her actions. They were awful and I don’t think she deserves to get her kids back. She deserves to be punished and probably locked in a padded cell and given electro shock therapy.
However, I can’t say she deserves to go to Hell. Again, I am not defending her actions. I just don’t think they are really of the same caliber of evil as a lot of the people on this blog. It seems that she is genuinely mentally ill and trying to fight it. Most people here have no remorse. She showed remorse by turning herself in. I don’t know, and I’m no expert, but it seems to me that that would hold some weight as far as redemption goes.
Jesse… I do agree with you. What she did was definitely horrible, and she was clearly aware of it, but she actually called the cops on herself before it was ‘too late.’
I, like jessie am just not sure on this one….
The word probably was way too dominant in this piece. (IMO)
While what the mother did was without doubt absoluty discusting, and she absoloutly shouldnt have any contact with her children at all…. (here it is) but…. if she is indeed scitzo then being off the meds well, yes that could do it. should she have been left alone with them? certainly NO, but from the words saying that they couldnt afford meds i would have to assume the dad was the only one working and maybe he felt they didnt have a choice.
i dont know i am torn. on medication she is probably already in her own hell. she gave herself in and for that *I* am glad, maybe those poor kids can make something better for themselves without their parents.
Im sorry, but if the choice was between not putting fuel in the car ( or some other household cost) and geting wifey her meds so she doesnt do a Hansel and Gretal act…id go with getting the meds. Dad sounds like an asshole!!!
I absolutely disagree.
First of all, I am from Michigan, and I worked in the health field. I know there are options to getting your medications if you don’t have health insurance. How was she seeing a psychiatrist every month if they had no health insurance, but not getting her medications. I think this was some sort of “passing the puck” defense. Her psychiatrist would have referred her to places to get this taken care of–if something was prescribed to the patient the doctor KNEW she needed it and would have done all she could to get her on it.
So frankly the fact that she wasn’t on her medications because she couldn’t afford them doesn’t jibe with me. Something smells amiss in that.
Second of all, and a lot of people aren’t going to like this at all, but it needs to be said. If they couldn’t take care of their children and provide adequate protection for them–WHY fight to get them back (at least until something major happened in their ability to care for them–Im not saying you have to be rich to have children, but there are certain standards that have to be met)? I know that sounds harsh, but as a parent, wouldn’t you want them in a place where they were taken care of and protected instead of being selfish and damning them to something horrible happening to them?
As for the “probably” statement(s), they were used with the utmost amount of facetiousness possible. I don’t care who you are–if you get put in an oven YOU ARE going to have signs that that happened. If you get hit in the eyes with a hot screwdriver, YOU ARE going to have signs that that happened. If you get a hot nail held against your skin, YOU ARE going to have signs that that happened. If you get beat about the legs with a crowbar, YOU ARE going to have signs that that happened.
Maybe this woman doesn’t deserve hell, I will concede that point. But only maybe. Maybe she doesn’t because she didn’t kill anyone. Maybe she doesn’t because she is “sick”. Maybe she doesn’t because she is poor and couldn’t afford the upkeep of her care. But, maybe she does because she was selfish and knew she was “sick” but still chose to put her children in harms way. Maybe she does because she failed to use community resources available to her to obtain the medications she needed for her instabilities (there are UMPTEEN agencies out there for the mentally ill- they provide support, they get medications for you if you can’t afford them; they’re there so use them). Maybe she does because she failed to protect the very people who look to her for protection–because she failed to keep herself “normal”.
I have seen pictures of this woman and let me tell you–she is happy and smiley and absolutely sunshiney in pictures without her children. In pictures with her children, she is absolutely downtrodden and dismal. Take that as you will.
You are 100% correct about the easy access without insurance to psychotropic meds. The biggest issue someone may have is having to switch meds because certain newer ones could be upwards of 1000 dollars a month instead of the generics which are about 5 dollars a month. These psych meds are being given away by the drug companies in mass numbers. There is no shortage to say the least.
County Mental Health services provides comprehensive and wrap around services which are comprable to private health insurance plans, believe it or not. You may have to wait longer, but if someone is earnest in managing their condition, they will do what they have to do. Anyone can walk in at anytime. They do not turn you down. They will hand you dozens of sample packs when you cannot afford your meds. All you have to do is come back and see their psychiatrist as scheduled. Obviously, this lady did not follow through.
She could have also, without health insurance, applied for medical indigence through the county, which allows individuals like herself to obtain their perscriptions which ar required to manage a restricted health condition- including mental illness. You just walk into the designated county indigent health program, wait to see a doctor, get your prescription, and pick it up at the pharmacy for five or ten bucks.
Now, I do not believe that mental health excuses one’s actions, not even close. But I have to say, Schitzophrenia is ugly. I understand that 1/3 will get better with medication, 1/3 will get better with meds and therapy, and 1/3 will never get better. It is a battle, but she and her husband should have been more responible in terms of managing her mental well-being. It is something which you have to take seriously. I assume she was on anti-psychotics, which should tell you something. The name is self explanatory. Duh, what happens when someone goes off their anti-psychotics? They may become psychotic.
In the end, she is responible for her actions because she abused the children. She did not manage her mental health condition responibly. If she was adult enough to have and raise children, she is capable of managing a mental health condition. Her diagnosis in no way is an excuse for her actions. And her husband was reckless in trusting a schitzophrenic off their meds to be alone with the children.
Just irresponible, plain and simple. Mentally ill individuals who are non-compliant in their medication and treatment plans make a conciencious choice to not manage their mental health properly. Unless, they are cognitively impaired, but that is another can of worms. This lady was not mentally retarded, so she knew better. She should be accountable. And so should her stupid husband. he should be thanking his lucky stars that she did not kill one of those kids.
I wasn’t saying she wasn’t responsible for her actions or for her failure to get her meds. I was simply saying I didn’t think she deserved to go to hell. In fact, I said I wasn’t defending her actions…and I wasn’t.
It doesn’t matter why she didn’t get her meds. She didn’t have them. And well, those programs for getting your meds are really hard to find. Sure, as a health professional, you know about them. I have a friend who was fairly young when he was diagnosed with HIV. He hadn’t had much time in his life to work and save enough to afford all of his medical costs. His medication was so expensive, and it was years before he was actually able to get some help for it. His brother was a nurse, so he knew about those programs you mention. They still had extremely long waiting lists.
Also, even if you can afford the medication, how do you afford the tests and doctor visits that are required to get it? Are there programs for that? If so, why aren’t people being made aware of them? Why aren’t there public service campaigns that tell people like this woman that they can get help if they need it? How many people are sick who don’t know that there is help and these programs exist? How many other kids are suffering because of stuff like this?
Sure, it is up to the individual and their family to find a way to help themselves, but some people are seriously ignorant (as in obliviously blind and completely unaware) of their options. Meanwhile, they suffer and their children suffer. Who knows why they didn’t get help somewhere? The point is that they didn’t and terrible things happened as a result. Pointing fingers doesn’t change what happened. I think the best thing that could come out of a situation like this is that maybe help could be made more accessible for others in the future.
Just to be clear…when I said she didn’t deserve to go to hell, I was thinking from a strictly biblical standpoint. I mean, if you are sending someone to hell, I guess you would have to believe in heaven too.
I just thought her action of calling the police on herself and turning herself in to be punished is basically the same as confession and repentance. Those are the conditions for forgiveness in the Bible. That doesn’t mean that she doesn’t deserve her punishment here on earth.
I don’t want to be attacked like James for whatever reason. I do believe in personal responsibility. I just think that she took some responsibility in turning herself in. I also think that it is possible that she wasn’t aware that there was help out there. Excuse me for feeling any sympathy for this woman. I just happen to believe that redemption is possible for anyone who seeks it in truth and who truly repents. That doesn’t mean I think they should be out in society.
Most people don’t truly repent. Most of the people I have read about on this site deserve hell. Most of them are truly evil people. I don’t really know enough to make any assessment on this case. Who knows…maybe she’s just a manipulative bitch that was burning her kids..and just used this as an excuse…I don’t know. I guess for any of us to figure out who or what is to blame, we would have to know the whole story. Like did she purposely choose to stop taking her meds? How long had this abuse been happening? We don’t know any of these things. I was just going by what I read, and that was my immediate thought. I thought that what she did was awful, but at least she turned herself in.
It makes her a lot better than a lot of the true evildoers on this site. At least those kids are still alive and have a chance to live a normal life. That is so because of something she decided to do that was right. It doesn’t make up for the bad, but it might save her from hell.
I do agree with you somewhat, Jessi. Because she turned herself in, it shows, possibly, that she didnt wish to continue harming her children. I trust she is receiving treatment now, but it never had to come to that point., where her children were placed in ovens and burned.
When you look at a situation like this, it is sad because there were resources available where she could have attained her testing, meds, and psychiatric visits for free. And I understand that people are not aware of the assistance which is out there, but they have to make it a point to do extensive research. Ask around, at least try. You will find these resources if you are serious about accessing the services and you put enough time into it. She or her husband could have done this at any point.
True, this woman is not in the same boat as Christine “Adolph” Schuerrer, or Melissa Huckaby, but she is responsible for her actions and the things she did to her children were criminal. The attitude which her husband has, blaming the system, makes me more irritated than anything else. I understand what you are saying, Jessi….
I personally think the father in this situation is as much to blame as Reyna. More so if she is indeed Schitzo and off her meds, and he didnt take steps to ensure his childrens safety.
She couldnt have been so far gone from not taking her meds, as she called the police and told them what she was doing.
While the bitch deserves to be punished and kept away from her childen, at least she was aware that what she was doing was wrong and did something to stop it from getting an worse. We have seen so many stories of dead kids and im just grateful this one didnt end in the same way.
I agree Amy.
I, for one, am heartsick over the “dead children at the hands of their parents” stories we hear about on the news everyday. Thank goodness for small miracles in this story.
Yes she should ’score some points’ for turning herself in, I just wish she had done that before trying to bake her daughter. I for one and just sick and tired of yet ANOTHER case where CPS dropped the ball. Let me guess, they are going to send the offending social workers for more training, like how to spot someone who is cuckoo for Coco-Puffs.
GOD!
I can’t even read this site anymore.
It’s like, if someone hurts a kid or drives drunk they’re instantly demonized. Mental illness? PLFT. NOT HERE!
Guh. Y’ll have a nice life.
So people who “hurt kids” and drive drunk should be treated how?
When someone dies or is injued at the hands of a drunk driver, its not an accident. Its not like they walked out onto the street and tripped someone over because they wernt watching where they were going. Drunk drivers show no respect or consideration for other peole on the road and in my humble opinion, “deamonize” themselves without any help from he readers of this site.
As for people who hurt kids, again, its not an accident. She wasnt carrying the child thru the kitchen and accidently tripped and the child fell into the oven. SHE PUT HER THERE!!! The kid was half baked!!! And because she is mentally ill…what??? She should get free pass???
Yes, she called the police and handed herself in…thank God…and yes, she may be mentally ill…but that in no way excuses what she did to her children. Do you think the kids will just get over their abuse once they are told that mummy is sick???
James, when I was first trying to get my life together, I met this guy Dave who always seemed to say the right thing, always seemed to do the right thing. One say I arrived late and started complaining to him about how every asshole in the world seems to be messing with me today. And Dave took me aside and told me, “you know Steve, in the course of the day I might run into a guy who aggravates me, and there’s a good chance he’s an asshole. And then later on in my day another guy just has to screw with me – and you know Steve, he might be just another asshole too. But you know Steve, after the third, or maybe the fourth asshole, I’ve learned to look for a mirror if I really want to find out who’d been behaving like an asshole all day today
Anybody ever take you aside like that? – it did me a world of good.
Yeah, you know what — I have been told that.
And you’re absolutely right. Extrapolated to what I said — I’m a drunk and I have a myriad of psychological problems. And that is why I feel for the people I mentioned in my prior post. Anyone can snap, even you or I.
I wouldn’t want to be demonized on this website anymore than I’m sure this schizophrenic lady would or that 20 year old alcoholic Brittany Schuetz (oh, I’m sorry, she’s a murderer to you judgmental nut-jobs).
James.. I can understand being frustrated on your end I suppose.. but keep in mind if someone knows very well what they are doing, and they know very well that their actions can have very negative consequences.. then they are responsible for whatever happens.. Perhaps in this case Reyna is not an evil person, but a person who is mentally ill, and is not always in control of herself.. she was still quite aware that she needs medication to function properly.. She did the right thing by turning herself in, but she is responsible for not seeking out treatment options before things got to that point.. Perhaps she couldn’t afford medication outright, but you can’t tell me that there are no governmentally sponsored programs she could have signed up for that would have helped her get on, or stay on some kind of medication.. how do I know this for sure?? I’m on one of those programs.. Without it I wouldn’t be able to afford my prescriptions either..
What I’m trying to say is that if she is not responsible for her actions while she was in some kind of mania, she IS responsible for not preventing, or attempting to prevent those actions ahead of time (although I have a hard time with this one because her actions seemed to require a bit of thought and planning .. ie heating up a screwdriver before hitting her daughter with it).. I don’t think she deserves to go to hell for whats happened, but at the very least she needs to be hospitalized, and her children need to be somewhere safe.. It’s quite obvious their father is not looking out for them either..
Finally.. if while you are drunk, or high, or whatever.. you injure or kill someone.. YOU too need to be held responsible for your actions.. in court, and yes, the court of public opinion, which often hands down sentences far more brutal than any judge ever could..
James, you need to grow up and realize that only an individual is accountable for their actions. Not substances, mental illness, other people and what they did to them, none of that garbage. If you want to get clean and sober, you will. If have a mental health diagnosis and want to keep it under control, you will take your meds. And I wouldn’t call others names like “nut jobs” when I have a DSM diagnosis. That is kind of ass backwards and disrespectful toward yourself, if not anyone else.
James, you made a statement which is slightly alarming. Something along the lines eluding to people snapping and it could happen to anyone. It is almost like you are giving yourself permission to do something fucktardish. I almost pick up on a cry for help….
Maybe that is why you are so affected when you read stories about assholes like Brittany Schuetz, who was given a chance, but decided to continue drinking and driving-and killed a beautiful and innocent young woman. Or stories like this one, where someone knows they have a mental health diagnosis but makes the choice to NOT take their meds-and tortures their children. But, to give credit where credit is due, you also sound like you have a decent amount of smarts. This may be the proverbial calm before the storm, dude. If you think you are going to go ape shit, do something about it. Quick. If this site is a trigger to your psychosis, dont log in anymore. Otherwise, please realize that the site is called “people youll see in hell” for a reason.
Only you have the power to avoid being on a site called “people youll see in hell”. If you need help, please get help. If you even need resources, I can hook you up. Otherwise, I will be the first online to write up your story with the same sensitivity shown when exposing that little selfish cooz Brittany Schuetz.
Good luck.
I spent about five minutes trying to decide which of y’ll to reply to …
But poptart, your statements were easily the dumbest, most reactionary, outdated things I have heard or read today.
FIRST OF ALL, nothing I said should be construed as a justification for my doing something, to quote, “fucktardish.” Furthermore, if stating the very general, and nearly impossible to refute mention that anyone can snap can be seen as a “cry for help,” it is remarkablem, in my eyes, that our prisons are overflowing and not our mental institutions. Frankly, sir, leave interpreting one’s mental well-being based on passing remarks to the professionals, hm?
Now, in all honesty, I have been able to pick up in my months of reading entries to this website that the general readership and myself have vastly different views on the criminal justice system here in America, and it is this disparity in opinion that keeps me coming back — not to get angry or claim it as a trigger to my supposed psychosis (did I say I was ever diagnosed with psychosis of any kind?), but to reinforce my own views and opinions. My sole intention here was some lively conversation (which I have most CERTAINLY acheived) not personal attacks. This being said, I must admit that my use of the phrase “judgmental nutjobs” was out-of-line and I do, wholeheartedly, apologize if this was offensive to anyone (you can call me a nutjob all day, I could give a shit).
Now with that out of the way …
It is elusive to me how a country whose founding principles are — among others –life, liberty, and a pursuit of happiness can so freely hand down life-ruining — if not life-ending, literally or figuratively — criminal punishments. As a country, we have defeated the world’s greatest power as one of its dependancies; we have halted the spread of totalitarian governments across the globe; we have worked tirelessly to prevent the further proliferation of possibly life-extinguishing nuclear weapons …
But we haven’t taken a single moment to sit a murderer or a rapist or any other “hellworthy” criminal down and spend a few bucks to figure out “WHY?”
When you get right down to it, a person in prison is doing no more good than a person in the ground. In fact, a person in prison is simply prolonging his detriment to society by feeding off of it, sleeping in its walls, and being watched ’round-the-clock by its employees.
My frustration with the comments that were made about Ms. Valentino and Ms. Schuetz is that imprisoning persons of their medical dispositions should have ended many, many moons ago. Alcoholism and schizophrenia have both become relatively well understood diseases in the past several decades and treatment options are available to persons suffering from these diseases.
Now, several of you raised the argument that these persons are responsible for maintaining their treatment, which I cannot disagree with — to a point. These are both diseases which fundamentally alter the way the human mind works. Furthermore, they are both diseases that even when in remission, can suddenly reappear, having progressed while dormant — i.e., a schizophrenic may be taking x mgs of y antipsychotic, well tolerated, for z amount of time and suddenly at point a may need b mgs of y antipsychotic, or even a whole new medication. Because of the was the disease affects their thought-processes, they may be totally unaware of this.
Max, being in recovery yourself, you know as well as anyone what I’m talking about. Everyday you’re not drinking, that alcoholism and addiction is outside your house, under your bed, doing pushups waiting for you to let him back in. Schizophrenia is no different, just the treatments.
I suppose I should also clarify that I am NOT trying to justify either person’s actions or say they should be getting off clean as a whistle. They both deserve punishment, but doggoneit make the punishment forced treatment! Or an indefinite stay in a facility that can rehabilitate these people with a release contingent upon clinically significant improvment of symptoms.
I dunno, I’m no judge, but be there a God, a heaven, a hell …
I might be there, but I don’t see any reason based on what I’ve read about Brittany Schuetz or Reyna Valentino that makes me think they’re gonna be my drinking buddies down there.
Ok James, let me address your argument of alcoholism as a mental illness. It wasn’t very long ago that homosexuality was considered a deviant mental illness. So people who go out and get drunk or stoned and then get behind the wheel should be forced into treatment, by your argument. Fine. Who is going to monitor them when they are stabilized and released? Who is going to make sure that they maintain their sobriety? We as a society can’t keep track of the children within protective services and yet we are going to monitor the hundreds of thousands of alcoholics, drug addicts and the mentally ill? You’re dreaming. You also stated that no one had “sat a criminal down and spend a few bucks to figure out “WHY” BULLSHIT. Ever since Ed Gein was first discovered and institutionalized, hundreds of scientists and researchers around the world, spending billions of dollars have done just that. Internists, neurologists, psychiatrists, psychologists, sociologists, anthropologists, and a bunch of other ‘ologists have studied this. These people are tested, they are analyzed, and yes, they are asked ‘why?’ Guess what? Most of them lie. 90% of the incarcerated will stand there, look you in the eye and tell you how innocent they are. That even if they are guilty, it is because mommy didn’t love them, or daddy beat them, or so and so molested them. Or they have an addiction to pornography, alcohol, drugs, or this disorder or that syndrome, etc. It’s an excuse. They cannot accept responsibility for their crimes. Everyone else is to blame, but them. So just remember that the next time you think that someone should be FORCED to take Psychotrophic drugs, remember the countless homosexuals that were forced to take medication against their will or who were institutionalized. Remember that once we as a society start to make decisions as to who should do what with their bodies, it is only a short step for society to decide who is a viable member and who isn’t.
“We havent taken a single moment to sit a murderer or a rapist or any other “hellworthy” criminal down and spend a few bucks to find out WHY.”
I can see the angle your coming from : Why kill them or jail them when we could maybe fix them and they could become productive members of society? Maybe if we could find out why they do these terrible things we could stop others from doing it.
But do you honestly think murders and rapists and people who kill innocent children and run people down in their cars because they cant follow the law or keep their alcahol consumption under control, etc, etc, DESERVE a second chance?
Does it make it better for you that a man rapes and murders someone but would not normally do that if he wasnt high on drugs? Or was molested by his daddy? Because im sure the family of the victim does not give a shit about the circumstances surrounding the crime and just wants justice. And deserves justice.
In a perfect world your methods might work…but then in a perfect world they wouldnt be needed.
James, since you called me out, I will break it down for you.
That is right I am reactionary. Especially when people start shit by calling me a “nutjob” for believing that people should be held accountable for their actions. Now, let’s get this straight bro, I no where near attempted to diagnose you. You eluded to it. Right here:
“And you’re absolutely right. Extrapolated to what I said — I’m a drunk and I have a myriad of psychological problems. And that is why I feel for the people I mentioned in my prior post. Anyone can snap, even you or I.” Your words.
James. How would you interpret those statements? You flat out stated that you have psychological issues. I made no diagnosis whatsoever. But- get this – lol – I happen to be trained to do so.
But, I am not in practice of diagnosing when I am not getting paid, or when I do not know someone. I did take your statement and poke fun at it a bit and if I offended you, I apologize for that. But you should think before you elude to things you do not wish others to believe about you. You provided that ammo. Either way, my offer still stands about resources.
Furthermore, I dont know where you attempted, in any of your initial statements to start a lively, intelligent conversation without insulting others. You made insulting statements then slammed others for giving it back to you. Kind of manipulative there.
In reality, your statements made were not motivated by the fact that you had an itch to start some lively, intelligent, philosophical conversation with regard to crime and punishement in the U.S. Your statements, like mine, were reactionary, motivated by your empathy toward the people getting blasted on this site, because, as you admitted, you have similar issues. That is fine, but “dont pee on my leg and tell me it is raining.”
Regarding your statement about why we in the U.S. do not sit down with a murder or rapist and ask “why”? We do ask why. Sex offenders who are in prison receive millions of dollars per year in funding to participate in “S.O.R” or sex offender rehabilitation. Psychiatrists, medical staff, social workers, therapists, dieticians, even, plenty of people at their beck and call asking those useless fuckers “why?” every minute of the goddamn day. I happen to think that it is pointless and a huge waste, myself. But I am not clear on what your point is in even bringing that up. See, James? This is exactly what I mean by “fucktarded”.
You argue that alchoholism is a medical disposition and for that reason scum like Brittany Schuetz is not purposeful in her actions which caused the death of an innocent, and promising young girl. Brittany suffered with addiction, boo fucking hoo. Sure, people become physically addicted, but that is not the same as someone who has cancer. The alchoholic MADE themself an alchoholic. Whereas, a child born with leukemia did not cause his medical condition.
You can honestly say that someone who causes their own shit should be in the same category of a child, lets say, who knows they are going to die at 5 years old? Or a young father who gets brain cancer at 35 and dies, leaving his wife and children on their own? This medical condition bullshit argument only hold so much water. As a matter of fact, this argument makes me pissed off because it is milked and played out for days and only used at the convenience of people who get caught doing fucktarded stuff. Like posession charges, DUI’s, selling dope. Like slamming into someone at 100 mph after getting loaded. You know what I mean ;)
Yeah, I am sure Brittany suffered when she was getting shit faced and hanging out at the party in Sherman Oaks. I bet she was crying and miserable the whole time. But guess what? She’s suffering now. :) And I am glad. She deserves every minute of it for what she caused to that girl and her family and friends. No one has a right to do that shit to someone else.
Brittany worked a court-mandated program for several years because of her previous DUI. She had resources. Rehab will work for people, if they are committed. Only then. But she made a choice to continue doing whatever the fuck she wanted to. And she wanted to continue to party, drink, and drive. No one has the right to gamble with other peoples lives. If a medical condition causes someone to haphazardly kill others, that person is dangerous to society and SHOULD be locked up.
In terms of medication compliance for managment of a mental health condition, it takes, just like rehab, commitment and follow through. Reyna didnt follow through. So what does she and her loser husband do? They BLAME the system, of course. That is bullshit because they could have walked into any county mental health emergency facilty and received comprehensive care and medication.
Both Brittany Cheers and Reyna are dangerous to society and should be locked up at this point in time. Now, I believe that if Reyna gets her crap together, takes meds, stabilizes, she should be let out. But not in the near, near future. And only after she has served some decent amount of time for torturing her children.
But Brittany is a murderer. A spade is a spade. She took someone’s life. She should pay for that with her life, not with a pity party.
My comments were “outdated”. LOL. I apologize if I do not subscribe to your hip, cool, and with the times paradigm of thought process which is solely based on blaming others for your irresponsible actions. You are THE fucktard, James.
And you call me dumb? Sorry bro. You must be projecting again.
:pisses on poptart’s leg:
HEY LOOK IT’S RAINING.
Yeah, you’re an ass.
And you know, frankly dude, I could totally respect that you and I simply have different points of view, but you obviously cannot and insist on accusing me of being incapable of taking responsibility for my own actions and/or being psychologically unsound (based on your professional status as some sort of mental health practitioner? I’m not buying it, and I’m relatively certain you just have an inflated ego and it’s a good way of proving your bullshit point).
And you know what, blaming the system, when you can accept the fact that it’s fucked up and obviously does nothing for the people in it, makes a whole hell of a lot more sense than 85% of the garbage that spewed out of your keyboard.
And finally, projection?
The only thing I’m going to project is my foot up your ass and/or fist into your face.
(I suppose I should disclaim here that I have no intentions of placing my foot or fist anywhere near anyone’s face or (presumably fat) ass.)
Good job, genius. Resort to violent threats because, guess what, moron?
YOU HAVE NOTHING ELSE.
James, where has your desire to have an intelligent conversation gone? I still dont understand what the fuck child molestors and murderers having access to rehabilitation has to do with your argument about mental illness and subtance dependency within the criminal justice system. Nevermind, it is evident that YOU dont even know what they fuck your point is. You are fucktarded, like I said before.
Here, check it out for yourself.
http://encyclopediadramatica.com/Fucktard
You are a loser with TONS of problems which you wont face. That is clear as day. And you know what? 100% of what you spout is bullshit.
Now go back to what you were doing. You know, drinking your night train, hitting your glass dick, and fucking your fat cow of a wife in your trailer.
Boo fucking hoo, you think you deserve sympathy for being a fuck up? You defend others, JUST LIKE YOU and think that just because you and them choose to live your lives in a stoopor, haphazardly and reckelessly, that others should have sympathy when the shit hits the fan and people like you cause damage to others? What a fucking joke.
I feel bad for you, seriously. And YOUR ego, YOUR belief that everyone else here is wrong and you are right, that speaks milestones. So dont tell me about egos, you have proved that you have quite a large one, yourself. And you have shown that you are also a manipulative crybaby and a hypocrite. You are in denial, you have issues with dependency, you are convoluted in your thought process probably because your brain is fucking damaged.
Okay.
Let me, really quick-like, refute every single word you said.
“Good job, genius. Resort to violent threats because, guess what, moron?
YOU HAVE NOTHING ELSE.”
>Apparently you failed to read immediately below my “violent threats” where I clearly stated they were not threats. Quite to the contrary, I do believe the moron would be he who considers someone saying that he will project his foot up another’s ass in the forum of the internet to be a violent threat. Moron.
“James, where has your desire to have an intelligent conversation gone? I still dont understand what the fuck child molestors and murderers having access to rehabilitation has to do with your argument about mental illness and subtance dependency within the criminal justice system. Nevermind, it is evident that YOU dont even know what they fuck your point is. You are fucktarded, like I said before.”
>My desire for intelligent conversation, sir, went out the window when this insult- and explative-laced back-and-forth between you and me became much more fun.
Now, as far as child molestors and murderers go — not that I ever brought up child molestation (at all) or murdering (by your definition) outside of the context of the mentall ill — the very basis of my thinking (which I thought I had made abundantly clear, but I suppose when one can’t remove his emotions from a topic it gets difficult to read between the lines) is that to murder, or to molest a child, or to beat your wife, or to do anything that goes fundamentally against the structure of a peaceful and harmonious society is a clear sign of some mental illness or ineptitude to function in that society. My argument (or point), which you so vehemently deny the existence of, is that steps should be taken to control and supress the illnesses or deficiencies that are the CAUSE of the crime. In other words, prison is how we have been hiding our species’ insufficiencies that are too abhorrent to allow to continue. What I am suggesting and arguing (fruitlessly, but I keep going because thus far it has been exceedingly fun), or in your words my “point” is that a solution to the cause of the problem would be far more effective than hiding the problem under the proverbial rug (which I will specify again as prison, since you have had a tough time picking up on my subtleties in the past).
“You are a loser with TONS of problems which you wont face. That is clear as day. And you know what? 100% of what you spout is bullshit.”
>I’m not entirely sure how you can claim I am a loser, seeing as how the best rebuttals you have given me are pathetic, unsubstantiated ad hominem attacks, and grossly incorrect and misguided conclusions of fact. So, as far as I’m concerned, I’m winning now, buddy.
Now, my tons of problem which I won’t face. Well, I went out on a limb admitting to some personal issues to demonstrate my empathy for certain persons written-up about on here. Never once did I say I don’t have those conditions under control and appropriate medical supervision. Hm, I wonder why I didn’t say that … OH RIGHT! BECAUSE I DO! Yes sir, I am a perfectly well-functioning and productive member of society thanks to human scientific progress. Fifty years ago, if I didn’t have an SSRI to take or an understanding and well-trained counselor to support me I might very well be, well, in your words …
“drinking your night train, hitting your glass dick, and fucking your fat cow of a wife in your trailer.”
Frankly, that doesn’t sound like anything a mental health professional would say under any amount of provocation.
“Boo fucking hoo, you think you deserve sympathy for being a fuck up? You defend others, JUST LIKE YOU and think that just because you and them choose to live your lives in a stoopor, haphazardly and reckelessly, that others should have sympathy when the shit hits the fan and people like you cause damage to others? What a fucking joke.”
>Hm, did I ask you for sympathy? For what? Oh, for being a fuck up! No, I am afraid I don’t consider myself a fuck up, nor does anyone I know. And, I live my life in a stupor? Frankly, based on your blatant inability to use the english language in a less-than-foul or eloquent manner, I daresay if anyone is posting drunk or high, or in any other state qualifying as a stupor, it, sir, is you. Furthermore, I never claimed anyone who committed a crime deserves sympathy. HELP. Help, sir, is not sympathy, and sympathy is not always helpful.
“I feel bad for you, seriously. And YOUR ego, YOUR belief that everyone else here is wrong and you are right, that speaks milestones. So dont tell me about egos, you have proved that you have quite a large one, yourself. And you have shown that you are also a manipulative crybaby and a hypocrite. You are in denial, you have issues with dependency, you are convoluted in your thought process probably because your brain is fucking damaged.”
>You feel bad for me!? Isn’t that sympathy?! Aw snap!
My ego? My ego feels pretty good right now.
I have stated on multiple occasions I am stating a matter of opinion, and am quite certain I never told anyone that they are wrong. Please, correct me if the truth is otherwise.
And, how, sir, have I been manipulative? I always thought manipulation centered around one’s ability to mold some aspect of another — how precisely can I do that being such a moron?
And a hypocrite too? Where have I contradicted myself?
Issues with dependency? Where is this coming from? Oh, it must be another erroneous conclusion of fact required to laung your ad hominem attacks, right, I forgot, sorry.
Oh, and I decided for your own good, being the sympathetic soul I am, not to even go into your use of this “fucktard” term. Give me a break.
Apology accepted. You are an okay guy after all, James.
Ah, I guess you caught on to how much fun I was having.
Well, sir, I do appreciate having a chance to chat with such a brilliant professional of your stature. :giggles:
James,
I responded to your beliefs and facts on the Brittany Schueltz post. I never did get an honest answer from you, where you sat down with the material at hand and understood the reason what Brittany did was murder. I think that’s both disingenuous to your stated intent and a crime against yourself in the long run.
I am an American and as such, I’m duty bound to defend your right to an opinion and the reasonable address of that opinion. I am also duty bound to assist in the advancement of a common defense of the rights of my fellow citizens and ultimately human beings. The cause of criminal incarceration comes from the same rights you so clearly listed as the Declaration of Independence’s core rights. Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness, but others, perhaps lesser men and women than Jefferson, have been forced to consider a hierarchy of those three, when someone’s rights impinge upon another.
Your rights end at the tip of your tongue, the hair on your head, the skin on your scruff and the friction with your clothing and shoe leather. The common rights extend beyond that, but you are a creature born only to your skin and organs, the world is yours to explore. Your words are free, but those words are weighed in the course of what they force, cause or inspire, and are not free of civil litigation when they are false or unconscionable. When you drink to excess, you do not gain a freedom from prosecution, you further compound your guilt with an understanding that by limiting your capacity to reason, you limit the options you have to avoid impinging the rights of others. To paraphrase Jefferson your rights are as free as they can be within context, because we began free, but are striving to defend those freedoms.
In these cases, the parameters are set to defend the common rights of the majority. We strive to defend the minority against the majority as well, but in cases of life or death we must protect the whole, especially when life is threatened. We must protect lives. Brittany Shueltz and Michael Gagnon killed people while inebriated and driving cars. Gagnon killed my friend Bethany, her daughters and also the daughters of my friend Dan. He inflicted crippling injury on Dan and his last surviving daughter. Treating Gagnon for a disease in a health center and then releasing him to perhaps have relapse that kills other people is unacceptable. We’re forced to protect people in our system, because Gagnon’s rights and Brittany’s rights are not more important than that of their victims. Their victims have a right to be whole, and if they cannot be made whole, then those who destroy them have to be prevented from ever doing it again.
I agree with one of your sentiments, that life in prison should be a death sentence instead, but I disagree with the assessment that they are useless in their current task as prisoners. They do perform lasting changes in our civilization. They are taken from common society and their influence is often times lessened, while there is a positive change in how others can anecdotally be forewarned of a crime or condition leading to damage from a crime. These actions combined with a civil litigation system are the modern replacement for Wergild. It would be nice to have another replacement for this action, but in the case of murder, the better solution won’t be had until the victim can be returned to life and full function.
Your perspective is flawed in that you are merely an advocate for the rights of the surviving criminal, never that of the victim or the victim’s surviving community of family, friends and loved ones. That perspective is what leads so many to believe you’re sociopathic or psychopathic, because you reject the concerns of the victim and the community. That lack of empathy for those who have lost something irreplaceable is what turns so many from your perspective. Some can call my staid support for the victims in all considerations to be lacking in empathy, but I instead call it logical empathy, because it’s placed in the only consideration that matters, what is right and what is wrong, and who is wronged and who is merely ashamed.
Consider your evaluations of guilt, the law, and the consequences of the effect of rights in a group and you’ll understand why so many can’t see you as anything less than an inhuman apologist for these monsters. You don’t have to see eye to eye with them, but what you need to see is that many of the people on this list come at this evaluation not from some sort of distorted sense of self-righteousness, but because we’ve faced down our demons or been nearly destroyed by them, and our advocacy is a strong reminder to us and others that what we are doing is reinforcing an understanding of what is right and wrong.
I feel comfortable that I am right, and you are not only wrong, but blind to your own limits of empathy and reason. Assess what you understand and what you don’t and ask questions and listen for a change. You are not aware of all or even enough of the details you need to cope with these weighty matters.
James, are you now claiming to be a troll? That is SO disappointing. I may not understand or agree with people who have opinions that are contrary to mine, but I almost always end up with a grudging respect for the fact the they believed in what they were saying and stuck to their guns. But to use the “I was just having some fun” cop out might make you feel like you’re saving face, but I’ve been around the Internet more than enough years to spot a pseudo-intellectual bullshit artist who can’t take an good, old fashioned virtual ass whuppin’ when I see one. Now you just take your ball and run along home….
In your own words, James:
“Aw Snap!”
Hee Haw, you jackass. Hee fucking Haw.
Max, I’m not entirely sure what you mean by “Troll,” but I certainly take offense to being accused of proliferating “pseudo-intellectual bullshit.” And it appears to me that although the majority of persons reading my comments disagree, a preponderance of what I have taken the time to rebut clearly demonstrates I have, at the very least, a valid point. My opinions and beliefs are based on years of schooling in Catholic theology and humanist philosophy. I have debated, at legnth, this topic in several forums ranging from pool halls to mock trials and never once have my ideas been met with such vehement and poorly, if at all, substantiated claims not only to the contrary but several very personal and insulting attacks on my beliefs and self, mostly propounded by a certain toaster pastry.
Now, if that constitutes a “virtual ass whoopin,” I will certainly not be taking jack shit and going anywhere until I have at the very least rebutted improper constructions of my logic.
As far as having fun goes, I don’t see how that’s a cop out considering what I found so fun was totally shooting down this certain toaster pastry’s false accusations to me while at the same time being given a forum to reinforce my opinions and concurrently hoping maybe to sway someone’s mind to the humanist point-of-view.
Where I copped-out was where I couldn’t help but insult those who made defamatory comments about me — that’s a cop-out.
There seems to be a general sentiment here that I am somehow close-minded and limited in understanding, logic or comprehension of higher-functioning aspects of human thought. I cannot help but admit that this is at least partially true — I have absolutely no understanding for, see no logic behind, nor much care about most victims of crime. It seems to me that there is a fundamental aspect of the human condition to chase the futile (perfect example is me trying to make my point clear to you guys — you want nothing of it, and I want nothing more than to shove it down your throats). Extrapolate this to a victim of a drunk driving accident. Yes, this is not good. But forget we not of a few fundamental truths of life — it generally is not roses, daisies, raibows and kitties; and shit happens. People in my life have been taken before their times, but I never set out on an unending quest to banish the superficial causes of this from the face of the earth, or in the case of what is being suggested here, throw it in prison.
Putting a murderer in prison prevents that person from killing again; but what about every other person who will kill for the same reason? Prison attacks symptom of a societal disease. They do not succeed in preventing crime.
Now to be totally honest, I’m all out. That is my entire repertoire on criminal justice, and I am relatively certain I have swayed no one’s mind.
That is exactly what prisons do — they exhaust resources while acheiving few if any of the goals they set out to attain.
Seriosuly, man.
I welcome horrific things happening to you.
Based on your personality I wouldn’t put it past you to go whine to some law enforcement about being threatened, so let me clarify –
I have no idea who or where you are, nor any intention to cause you any harm, but damnit …
I’d love to see something awful happen to you. I mean worse than awful, I’m talking prison awful. You’re a piece of shit on my shoe.
Plft, you aint even that good fucker.
James,
If I break down your door, shoot you in the face, and then flee the scene, why would anyone come to avenge your murder or see me face justice?
The reason is that I would be a danger to civilization and you are dead and have, had your rights greatly curtailed. At the basic level, we are treating symptoms, but we’re actually also avoiding the most desperate of treatments, that of ending any possibility for humans to think original thoughts, act upon original ideas or emote their passions. If I killed you, it would be a crime of profit, passion or insanity, and your argument would be all of these devolve to the latter. I would argue that regardless of the source, that at the current time, Cancer must be removed from the body, for the body to survive.
What is Cancer? Cancer is a reproduction of a cell without limit. A reproduction of a concept is not unlike a Cancer. There’s a premise that says if I am better at you with a gun or knife, and I can kill you, then that makes your death a capability that I can use against you. If I kill you, I silence you, I end you, but we’re communal beings like our ancestors and we have a solution for this way of thought. If you kill me, my friends and family will come for you.
That’s unproductive as well, since killing begets killing and unless you want a thousand plays to steal the heart from Shakespeare’s tragedies, you have to find a system to deal with this impulse and its logical solution or the primary purpose of everyone will be on defense of self and clan. That system is government and by extension, we limit government by investing it with a strict legal code to abide by. We use legal terms like “whole” to stress the rights of a victim. We protect the living by treating the value of someone’s rights as supreme except where they impinge on the rights of others. You haven’t picked up on that. You don’t care about victims, because you don’t think they have rights. You don’t think the criminal is responsible for a crime. You think …. what, that the crime itself is an extension of….. the disease?
We have treatments for life threatening diseases, like Cancer. We kill them. We treat the symptoms and allow the victims to deal with them, and if the disease would kill someone from the remains of a victim, we incinerate those remains.
Our justice system is an extension of this science and method. Our justice is an evolution from the clannish instinct into a Humanist solution. Read Crime and Punishment and come back to this topic informed. It will change you.
Jason, you’re still missing my fundamental argument.
I don’t want someone to avenge my death or bring my murderer to justice. I want my murderer rehabilitated and put on the streets as a productive member of society.
I know not how to more plainly explain myself.
As a species, we are all functioning together toward the common goal of staying alive as long as possible. The existence and health of mankind is far more important to me than me, or you, or my family or friends — there’s no comparison in relativistic terms. Prisons and the ideas and beliefs (I hate using this term but damnit I’ve got no choice) YOU PEOPLE hold onto so dearly are doing nothing to further the health of our species. NOT THAT THE CRIMINALS ARE because I’m sure someone’s going to accuse me of having said that.
There’s a better way, and if you take a moment to think from a different perspective, you will see that.
I know this because I thought exactly like YOU PEOPLE do now. As a child. It was how I was raised to think. But I have since come to believe it to be flawed.
Yeah, asshole. You get progressively more looney and invasive, dont you? Mad because you are wrong? Welcome horrific things happening to people? That is really fucking sane. You sure think highly of yourself, dont you? Here is something you should be aware of, moron. I wouldnt care what you would think if something DID happen to me, because, considering the source, you are TRASH. I dont care what trash thinks. You are a troll. You do not have that amount of control, you egocentric prickwad. Get over yourself, dude. Please.
I have wasted plenty of time on your scummy ass and quite frankly, YOU are the shit on a shoe and your opinion does not matter, it is a joke, like you.
So look dickwad, why dont you just shut the fuck up because you are emberassing yourself. You are pathetic. Just sorry, sad and ignorant. Boring and way less intelligent than you think you are.
You are a time bomb, a disaster waiting to happen. It is a matter of time before you are locked up. Then, you will be where you belong, among trash like yourself. Not because I wish that on you, like wishing someone would have some great tragedy befall them
for the sole fact that they are not liked by that person wishing. But for the sole fact that you will DESERVE it, just for being a little fuck up who has the nerve to think that they, and their personal opinions supercede what is best for society as a whole. It is called selfish, actually.
You should re-think the fact that you have such a great opinion of yourself, loser. Read your comments. Any amount of time spent on your rehabilitation or therapy hasnt worked for shit and has been a waste of time and resources. I would tell you to get your money back, but just like you can make an assumption that I would “whine” to law enforcment, I will assume that you had your services paid for by the state, because you are a deadbeat loser. And it is probably true, yet you have the nerve to critisize a system which you suck off of? Excellent.
How funny. LOL. You welcome horrific things happening. Go play with your ouija board and voodoo dolls, retardo. You are nothing.
In the great words of the Stones:
“Got to scrape that shit right off your shoe”
There, James is all gone.
James,
Your “epiphany” isn’t as enlightened as you claim or even may believe. You haven’t studied, you didn’t even know enough Latin to actually know what mens rea meant. Trust me here, you and everyone else on this little, mostly blue light reflecting world are children in a vast sea of knowledge, but I assure you, from one child” to the “next” your current opinion isn’t new, has been assessed, and has been discarded–a simple study of classic Enlightenment literature will help here. There is a way to reform someone, but that reformation comes from within, and philosophers smarter than either of us have a significant amount of proof on their side.
Again, I urge you, read Crime and Punishment, if you truly want to argue this point, you’ll find some support for your opinion, but you’ll also learn some of the fundamental truths about the way this system was built. Like most systems it’s an evolution from one system based on what was survivable and what was not.
To your carelessness in justice, I defy your reasoning. There are people in this world that are worth more than the people who kill them. Denouncing their murderer and enshrining their victim has a functional and healthy human sociological benefit. It stresses what was good in the victim and helps humanity seek to emulate and replace those lost characteristics. Identifying what was lost in a victim is vital to the continuation of positive reinforcement in light of a tragedy, as much as demonizing the negative to avoid repetition of that mistake. When you take a basic psychology class some day, you’ll learn a bit about positive and negative reinforcement. You may also learn that your conceptual beliefs are more behaviorist than humanist and that your dogma is definitely a hodge podge of largely debunked theories.
Jason, I think I love you. If I wasn’t happily married, I would take you out for a drink. Well said. Bravo.
James, you are such a liar. You want everone to believe that you are some caped crusader for rehabilitation, that you used to think along the same lines, as what you call, “you people” in terms of crime and punishment? Like you had some epic turning point in the matter? Bullshit, loser. Here is what happened, I will tell you.
The only reason you changed your mode of thinking in regard to rehabilitation is because you became that loser that drinks and drives. You became the addicted sorry ass pathetic excuse of a person who blames others instead of themselves for what they are and what they do. So I dont buy it, asshole. A convenient thought paradigm switch? Right. Why dont you be honest and say:
“I am an alkie, I like to drink, I drink and drive. If I run over someone, I want a cushy sentence because it wouldnt be MY fault, it would be the alchohol.”
Fucktard.
I’m sorry James if we have offended your delicate psyche. But this is the People You See In Hell website, not the People Who Oops site. PYSIH is about people who have committed ATROCITIES, horrific murders, sexual assault, child pornography, child abuse, etc. And as far as I am concerned, anyone who knowingly gets drunk and/or high then gets behind the wheel of a car is no different that one that picks up a loaded gun and points it at an innocent bystander’s head. Regardless of her mental condition, this woman tortured her children. This was not a smack on the ass. She put them in a hot oven. If that isn’t hell worthy, I don’t know what is.
I didn’t mean it to sound like I’m immune to being an asshole, and I’m a recovering junkie myself. But I am extremely hardcore about people taking responsibility for their actions. I’ve driven in blackouts, and I’m sure as I can be that I never hit or killed anyone. but, hypothetically speaking, if I suddenly discovered I caused an accident that killed a person, I would turn myself in in a heartbeat. It doesn’t matter that I’m a different person today, or that I’m married an have two daughters who come to me for advice all the time. It’s the most worthless of worthless excuses to say I was under the influence and less able to avoid the accident. I took a person’’s life because I was too wasted to control a car properly, and now a person is dead because of it. That’s the only thing that matters, and now I have to answer to the legal system and society for what I did, just like anyone else. And being under the influence makes the crime worse because it was a MAJOR CONTRIBUTING FACTOR.
I can’t understand your position on this subject – in fact, it baffles me. Do you still drink James? Do you drive after you drink “if you think you’re OK”?
At least she has SOME conscience unlike most of the POS featured here…..
I’d go a bit lighter on her IF
1. She gives up parental rights for the children; does not fight to get them back
2. Gets spayed
I’ll go heavier on her IF
1. She blames the system or society for what she became. It sounds like her family is doing that already – bunch of entitlement moochers
2. She finds Jesus and suddenly she’s a changed person who should no longer be punished; she’s no longer “that person”, so any punishment should be dropped…..
Im torn as well. The things this woman did are horrible but she knew it and wanted to stop. She made a step in the right direction by turning herself in.
I do not blame family that was not around the children as they had no way of knowing this was going on and I’m sure while on medication this lady was a peach, perhaps even a competent mother.
I will however point a finger at Dad being of sound mind, and not reporting any of this abuse. I agree that there must have been marks. He has the responsibility to ensure the person taking care of his children (his wife) is able to do so.
I call bullshit! Daddy Dearest HAD to know something was up. He should be charged as well! Putting a child in an oven, Lord, have mercy on her evil soul!!!!!
The dad needs to be charged, or at least investigated further. No way he didn’t know what was going on. And to add my voice to the chorus, you so can get meds with no insurance, I have.
I hope she never gets custody of her kids again. Puttingl them in a hot oven? That’s it.
I’m sorry, but anyone who has severe mental problems and can not live/function normally without being on medication should not be allowed to have children PERIOD.
Yikes. I just moved Out of Hamtramck. I wonder where they lived.
Very glad no kids died because of this woman. I hope they’re being treated fabulously well by their foster parents.
Geez.
this is why I belive some people shouldn’t have or raise children.
Schizophrenics should not be in charge of children, period. I’ve been in more than my share of nut farms and spent a lot of time around them. They can be very scary. Even doped up on those new super-duper antipsychotics, they’re just plain old weird; you never know whether they’re talking to you or to the purple elephant they see seated behind you. No one with obvious gaps in their grasp of reality should be in charge of something helpless. Its just bad news for everyone concerned.
I agree…schizophrenics definitely shouldn’t be left to care for someone else, be it children or anyone. There was a lady in my town, who was schizo, and made the news because one day she was going to visit some friends of hers, who befriended her through a community group. This lady went to her friends house, and the friend wasn’t home, but her teenage daughter was. The daughter, knowing this lady quite well, let her into the home, as she had done before. During the short visit to the friends house, the schizo lady suddenly snapped, and ended the night by cutting the daughters head off.
A previous tenant in the apartment building I live in was a schizophrenic. It was during the time when he stopped taking his medications that I came to realize how truly unpredictable, and dangerous people with this mental illness can be. He would open the door and yell at people in the hallway, who weren’t there. His possessions would end up infront of my door (his lamps, mail, pots and pans, soda bottles)…stuff would get thrown out on the front lawn, he shat in the laundry room, and would pull up his camping chair infront of the dryer, and sit and talk to hit, for hours on end.
As crazy and afraid of him as I was, I felt bad for him, because social services told his elderly mother that he was too old to be living at home, and should be out on his own. His elderly mom knew that he wasn’t capable of taking his meds on a routine basis, without her there to supervise him, but social services wouldn’t listen. So, like many schizophrenics do, he thought he was better, and stopped taking his pills. I think that like a lot of people with a mental illness, they don’t truly realize that the reason they feel better is because they DO take their pills regularly. When they stop taking them, all hell breaks loose! This guy wreaked havoc in our building, until the landlord was able to finally evict him. Needless to say, social services listened, before anyone was hurt, and let him continue to live with his mom.
I don’t believe Reyna deserves hell, but she does deserve a lifetime without her children. She should be forced to have a hysterectomy, and never be left to care for anyone again. I still question how the father couldn’t have known what was happening. Perhaps he was too afraid that if he said anything, the children would be taken away. I don’t think he realized that the children would be taken away anyway.
I believe that sometimes, SOMETIMES, mental illness is what enables people to behave the way they do. It’s not a reason or excuse to do something horrific, but it’s an enabler. However, I believe that if someone has a known mental illness, precautions should be made in that persons life, that would ever prevent situations like this one, from happening.
I hold the husband and other adult family members responsible for this travesty. When someone with schizophrenia is off their meds and begins to decompensate and become psychotic, they are no longer able to seek help for themselves. It was the husband and family who should have seen to it that she did not go off her meds, and who should have taken her to the hospital for a psychiatric admission or commitment, and who should have arranged for appropriate childcare in the meantime. And I blame the child care agency for having returned the children to her for any amount of time without adequate supervision to entail she was in fact on her meds and receiving psychiatric medication. And I blame the lawyer for seeking to return the children to her custody. She is clearly seriously and medically ill and not capable of caring for them.
Absolutely. I wish they would at least charge the man with something. Neglect? I don’t know what it would fall under, but he certianly neglected to protect his children from danger. I just read a story about a woman who was arrested because her toddler daughter was found lpaying alone in the street. If they charged her, why can’t they charge this fucker?
Fact: she claims she is a schizophrenic and this is the reason why she systematically tortured her children. Right. So, this then follows that all schizophrenics will systematically torture their children when off medication. Wrong. This was not UNPREDICTABLE behaviour. Unpredicatble behaviour is when someone does something all of the sudden with no warning. What this bitch did was SYSTEMATIC torture.
And since she is supposedly schizophrenic then why did her husband allow her to supervise the children when he knew she was off her medication? HELLO??? Now, these poor children will have to suffer for the rest of their lives with being haunted by the fact that their mother took out her anger on them and their father did not give a shit.
It seems to me that people want to make all kinds of excuses where children are being hurt. Isn’t a child’s life worth something anymore?
I can’t stand pathetic psycho losers hurting children! burn her vagina, pour acid all over her and lock her up in a cage with hungry rats! BURN THAT CUNT ALIVE!
This is horrible, Those poor babies. I cannot belive she was left alone with them if people actually knew she was schizophrenic and off her meds. I have a relative who suffers from this Disease, And even though he is medicated and would never intetionaly hurt anyone we all know he can and will if he’s off his medicaton he is dangerous to himself and to other people. Never would any of us leave a child alone with him or even pets for that matter, Hes just too unpredictable. He has hurt people and animals and himself and belived he was doing what he was supposed to be doing. As far as the mother deserving hell I don’t belive she does she needs medication and help, But as far as her husband and anyone else who knew about this and allowed it to happen may they burn in hell. Those children should never of been left alone with her And there is no way that somebody did’nt know this was going on. I hope those poor kids are able to move on and lead normal lives.
I believe there are people who should not be having children; namely drug addicts and the mentally ill. It is one thing to give these people 2nd chances when they stuff up with their children, but how many kids get a shot at a 2nd chance when that parent severely disables or kills them…? for most of these kids, unless they are rescued, the only way out of an abusive home is in a wooden box – at worst the killer parent will only go to jail.
Children are not there for useless, feckless people to practice parenting-skills on, you raise them properly and you get it right the first time.
OH MY GOD! Why did god even allow her to have kids? Some people would make loving parents but can’t conceive, sadly and these people can? Grrrrrrrrrrr I’m so mad I cant even find words to describe how much i’d send her to hell! … Tabarnak! I agree with what you said about not knowing if you’d be able to control yourself being in that profession. Here is a few other professions I would not be able to do : child psychiatrist, nurse or dr. – Ambulance people… They all go un named in the people who see horrors like this afterwards… the aftermath.
BTW my question is since the autoroties new about her skizophrenia and that she has been like that for years taking meds why the fuck did they not investigate knowing she had children????? One has to wonder where we are going in this world and if a few people did not get their jobs in a cereal box
btw, it’s Hamtramck, not “Hamtarmck”…. sorry, just me being anal about spelling and all:)
my 2 cents: “neighbors had no idea what was going on in the home”, this is not a shock. i won’t pretend that the Ham is the nicest neighborhood, the best place to live, or the best place to raise children. for the most part, Hamtramck is an extremely compacted city. most homes are multi-unit (anywhere from 2 to 6 apartments in a single dwelling of 1,000+ square feet). a great majority of the residents are immigrants, trying to get on their feet and make a place for themselves in the US. unfortunately, a lot of terrible things have happened in this town, just as anywhere else. but the diversity of the community sometimes hampers investigations into situations like these. not because they don’t want to help, farthest thing from that… a lot of people are scared, a lot of people are illegal, and a lot of people are just looking out for themselves… i can’t blame them.
fortunately (or un, depending how you see it) it seems that the prosecuters have all of the information they need to make sure that another child is not put in the care of this couple ever again.
Thanks, I’ll fix that right away. I actually appreciate when folks like you catch my mistakes and let me know.
YES she deserves Hell and many times over. Putting your child in an oven? Burning them with a screwdriver? WTF!! I mean come on. Better yes, instead of Hell how about we put her in a crematorium incinerator and let her cook while she is still on earth!
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,526742,00.html?sPage=fnc/us/crime
to wit:
Defense attorney Raymond Cassar says 40-year-old Reyna Valentino was found not guilty Monday as part of an agreement with Wayne County prosecutors. She had faced torture and child-abuse charges.
Police say Valentino’s 4-year-old daughter told officers that her mother “cooks me like a turkey in the oven.” Investigators also say Valentino beat her 5-year-old daughter with a pry bar.
Cassar says Valentino has paranoid schizophrenia but stopped taking her medication because she couldn’t afford it.
He says her children now are in foster care.
Take that you intolerant bastards.
Take what James?
This site, on its About PYSIH page states:
“Some people will never be ‘correctable,’ no matter how much therapy they go through, no matter how many apologies they offer.”
NGRI doesn’t presuppose that the individual is even treatable, simply that they, to a greater degree than mere diminished responsibility, diminished faculties or any other faculty were diminished to the Common Law definition of “…having the mannerisms and nature of a Wild Beast…”
How does that invalidate anyone’s statements here?
How does it in any way validate any of your opinions, regardless of the alias you used?
What are you, a moron? There is no doubt that she DID what she did. She is “not guilty” because of a defense of insanity. All that means is that she didn’t know that what she was doing was WRONG, and it doesn’t mean she didn’t do it.
Everyone knew she was mentally ill, but that does not mean that it’s cool to torture your children.
Quite frankly, I am GLAD she was found NG. Because she will now be confined to a mental institution where they can hold her indefinitely. Since she didn’t actually kill her kids, a guilty verdict would mean that she could be free in as little as a year or two. The goal with this woman was more to get her off the streets and away from others who could be hurt by her, than to punish her.
Take what? She doesnt have her children back. Are you happy that they are in foster care? What is your point? What is with the quote from that poor child about mom cooking her like a turkey? Does that amuse you in some sick way, you weirdo?
You are a nutjob.
Now go back under that rock from which you emerged. I thought you were done with this site. Goofball.
Haha, looks like James just can’t forget us. He probably misses you Poptart. You guys grew so close in such a short period of time….it was soooo romantic.
Romantic like a colonoscopy, Max.