UPDATE: Tyler Hayes Weinman
COPS: SUSPECT IN MIAMI-DADE CAT KILLINGS A ‘SOCIOPATH’
by David Ovalle, The Miami Herald
In an interview with police, accused cat killer Tyler Weinman eagerly detailed how to dissect cats, even describing the ”tearing sound” made when cutting open a feline’s flesh, according to an arrest affidavit released Monday.
Miami-Dade police detectives concluded Weinman fits the bill of a “sociopath.”
The arrest affidavit, released one month after Weinman’s arrest, details a circumstantial case based on the teen’s suspicious late-night forays, cat claw scratches on his body and cryptic, disturbing comments about feline dissection.
The document reveals for the first time evidence used to arrest Weinman in a case that terrorized pet owners and generated national headlines. The warrant ‘’speaks for itself,” said Miami-Dade prosecutor Elijah Levitt.
Weinman, however, in initial talks with police did not acknowledge killing any of the dozens of cats found mutilated across South Miami-Dade between April and June, according to the warrant. And no eyewitnesses to the killings were cited in the document. (Click Here to view arrest affidavit)
”It’s really important to note that there is not one single witness in there that says that Tyler Weinman touched a cat — not one witness,” said David Macey, Weinman’s attorney.
Weinman, accused of slaying 19 cats in South Miami-Dade, was formally charged Monday during arraignment in Miami-Dade Circuit Court. He has pleaded not guilty.
Prosecutors made public the 10-page arrest warrant affidavit, which had been sealed because investigators were looking at other possible suspects. No further arrests have been announced.
Weinman is charged with 19 counts of felony animal cruelty, 19 counts of improperly disposing of an animal body and four counts of burglary for allegedly returning to homes to dump the cats.
Weinman is on house arrest, free on $249,500 bond. His lawyers will return to court Friday to ask a judge to return property seized by police after his arrest.
The case against Weinman could strengthen considerably; investigators are awaiting lab results on cutting tools found in searches of Weinman’s parents’ houses.
Police psychological profilers concluded the killer ”would be referred to as a sociopath” — and detectives agreed Weinman fit the description.
”I’m not exactly sure where they came up with their conclusion or their junk science but all that’s going to be proven faulty,” Macey responded.
Prosecutors charged Hayes in connection with the mutilations of 19 cats, the first found on April 28 near Weinman’s home on the 19400 block of Ridgeland Drive in Cutler Bay.
One cat was posed with a slit down the its stomach. Another was missing the top of its mouth. Another was missing genitalia. The scenes were bloodless, meaning the cats were killed elsewhere and dumped at the scenes.
Among evidence cited by prosecutors:
• On May 14 about 2 a.m., officers found him walking along Whispering Pines Road. A witness told police he saw Weinman walking and using his cell phone on the same street about an hour later — then three hours after that, another cat was found nearby.
The next night, a Miami-Dade sergeant found Weinman — clad in black, wearing a backpack — skateboarding in Cutler Bay. Weinman laughed when the sergeant suggested he keep his cats indoors.
• On May 15, officers stopped Weinman when he ran a red light in Cutler Bay. They found a ”cutting tool” he apparently threw outside his driver’s side window. The tool was impounded. Weinman was arrested for marijuana possession.
• During that arrest, officers noticed a ”prominent red-colored scratch across the right side of Weinman’s neck.” He claimed it came from feeding a stray cat at his mother’s house — he then eagerly showed detectives another scratch on his back.
”The cat climbed down my back,” Weinman told Miami-Dade Detective Dominick Columbro.
• Police attached an electronic tracking device to his car that pinpointed him in the immediate area of one killing reported June 6. A witness also told police that a suspicious black car — similar to Weinman’s — was seen casing the street as detectives pored over the crime scene. The car sped off.
• Weinman, at length, described dissecting cats, which he learned during an anatomy class at Palmetto Senior High. To police, he noted ”with excitement” that cats for dissection could only be received from Mexico, the warrant said.
During his interview, he seemed almost to be toying with investigators.
Detective Columbro asked what tools someone would use to kill cats.
”I don’t know but I’m sure they are very well-hidden,” he said.
How do you think the cats are captured, he asked.
”They either have to be tranquilized or poisoned,” Weinman replied.
While he did not admit to any cat killings, he did disclose to investigators that he ”despises” his father. In media interviews, his father and stepmother have said they own several cats.
877 Comments »
What a sick little fucker! This story makes my skin crawl!
I love these little wannabe Dahmer high school children that think they are so edgy and badass. Too bad when all the attention wears off they are still sitting jail and everyone else has moved on to the next shocker of the month.
I wonder how “edgy” and “badass” he’d feel if I whipped his ass with an equalizer of some sort?
I’m thinking baseball bat personally.
Grrrrrrrrrrr. They better find something on the “cutting tools” they found. The cops/prosecutors should know better than this. They will be hard-pressed to get a conviction based on psychological profiling and circumstantial evidence. Maybe if they had a jury trial, they could get a “gut-reaction jury”, but they will take a judge trial, and win in a heartbeat. If they find something on the tools, there is a better chance.
I am guessing that this kid did it (I assume the cat killings have stopped?), but they totally jumped the gun on this one. If the kid had a court-appointed attorney he might lose, but there is no fucking way that he will be convicted with a private lawyer. I could get him off, and I only had 2 semesters of law school, lol.
I agree. It seems like he did it, but I don’t know that I’d send him to prison for being creepy. For all anyone knows he’s lying to the police to make himself seem creepier than he really is.
As much as I’d like to see him sentenced, our country should not sentence him just because it feels right. I am sure many Innocent people would be behind bars……
The state hospitals, the asylums, need to be reopened for some of these people who fall into the gray areas….
Of course, once found guilty, our country needs to stop pussy footing and send these people to heir maker for proper judgement.
And then he’ll be back in if they don’t cure his blood-lust. He just might escalate, but that is purely speculation on my part.
Just disgusting. I’m not much of a cat lover, but all the same, they are defenseless creatures and I could never imagine hurting one!! In fact, I have 2 strays who like my garage for some reason so I put out some water and leftovers for them (which is apparently why they like my garage).
To me, this man is no different than a child abuser; hurting those who can not defend themselves. He will most certainly go back to the same sociopathic behavior when released (if he ever makes it to jail).
Look at the smug little shithead. He looks like an evil clone of Jonathon Taylor Thomas, which normally would be enough for me to not like him. His taunting of the police disgusts me, but it will be all the more satisfying when he is convicted.
He looks so calm, doesn’t he.. An innocent adult person would have some kind of pain in their eyes in his situation, let alone a kid.. being accused of something you didn’t do does that to someone who is “normal”.. There’s nothing about that face that says “I feel bad about whats gone/going on” .. No hurt, no trouble, no worry.. that look isn’t smug.. it’s blank..
If they let this kid off scott free, we’ve all got something to worry about..
maybe he just watched too much Dexter?
Here is an excerpt from Chapter 828 from the Florida Statutes
Title XLVI
CRIMES Chapter 828
ANIMALS: CRUELTY; SALES; ANIMAL ENTERPRISE PROTECTION
828.12 Cruelty to animals.–
“(1) A person who unnecessarily overloads, overdrives, torments, deprives of necessary sustenance or shelter, or unnecessarily mutilates, or kills any animal, or causes the same to be done, or carries in or upon any vehicle, or otherwise, any animal in a cruel or inhumane manner, is guilty of a misdemeanor of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or by a fine of not more than $5,000, or both.
(2) A person who intentionally commits an act to any animal which results in the cruel death, or excessive or repeated infliction of unnecessary pain or suffering, or causes the same to be done, is guilty of a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or by a fine of not more than $10,000, or both.
(a) A person convicted of a violation of this subsection, where the finder of fact determines that the violation includes the knowing and intentional torture or torment of an animal that injures, mutilates, or kills the animal, shall be ordered to pay a minimum mandatory fine of $2,500 and undergo psychological counseling or complete an anger management treatment program.”
And according to Chapter 775.082, if Tyler is convicted of a felony, he can serve a life sentence. Heck, if the jury decides that the crime fits the conditions required for a capital felony, they can suggest the death sentence. Good old Florida.
You know, instead of facts, I am going to stick to my biased opinions :)
What a weirdo. How embarassing for his parents, to have raised a total little freak who’s now famous for killing people’s pets.
My kids might have turned out fucked up in some ways, but not THAT fucked up. Thank you, God.
I hate this kid. I hardly ever say that cuz hate is such a strong word, but i HATE this kid. he should be beaten within an inch of his life, then thrown in a hungry lions cage. paybacks a bitch lil boy… you liked picking on cats, have fun being on the recieving end in jail… this kid isn’t gonna last an hour in state prison, and for that, i can smile… i just hope hes convicted.
Omg keep this kid locked up now, before he goes on to killing people….Unless he has already and we just dont know about it.
This is ridiculous, I don’t understand why he didnt automatically get a life sentence…I wish I was president.
Wow I’m surprised the little bastard got away with house arrest! For now at least. He took the lives of 19 living and breathing beings. I hope this little brat gets set to jail…let the inmates do a little dissecting of their own…( I made a funny)
Three different, fascinatingly creative concepts of opening and closing quotes in the first four paragraphs, and only one of them accurate. Who’s an article got to fuck to get some editing around here?
Well, an articles got to fuck *you* apparently, but it doesn’t want to.
So complain to the Miami Herald. I couldn’t have made it any clearer that this is a cut & paste of their article. Not that I’m above the more than occasional lapse in grammar, but it ain’t my fault this time.
Please humor us with the “true story”, Epilepsy Jones.
Oh, his parents must be *so* proud of their little sociopathic monstrosity.
You know, even if for whatever reason he is not convicted, this will follow him & haunt him for the rest of his life. Can you imagine what future girlfriends/boyfriends/friends/employers/landlords etc will think of him if they ever google his name?
Information on the internet NEVER goes away. He’s screwed, one way or another. I really hope all his torturing & senseless killing was worth it for him, because payback is coming & its gonna last a bitter lifetime.
OK, for the Max haters out there:
“Information on the internet NEVER goes away. He’s screwed, one way or another. I really hope all his torturing & senseless killing was worth it for him, because payback is coming & its gonna last a bitter lifetime.”
Naw, it won’t haunt him. The thing about sociopaths is that they don’t care, don’t feel remorse and don’t give a damn what your opinion is unless it can be used as a means of manipulation.
Sociopaths don’t have friends or girlfriends. Or if they do, they don’t really care about them anyway.
It’s the fact that he won’t actually care about any of this that makes him kinda scary.
I totally agree .. They don’t care about anything.. they’re not afraid of anything or anyone.. and given the chance, this kid WILL move on to people.. It always starts this way..
I also agree that the numbness makes him scary, but what’s even scarier than that is that somehow, these people slip by the law.. No one catches them until multiple people suffer..
If he’s not haunted by the fact that many people in the world know who he is and what he did, and what he’s capable of, at least we can be comforted by the fact that people DO know.. and at least in some way he can be watched.. THATS whats important.. If he never gets punished for what he’s done now, at least people can watch out for him.. and there’s a definate, and undeniable public record of what he’s done.. that way if anything else does go down, there are priors to reference.. The best thing about this is that he can’t hide..
Hey, this really good info & I found it quite interesting & you are absolutely correct. I guess I need to do some reading on the sociopathic personality.
I do believe though, that this publicity *will* haunt him for the rest of his life. He may not care, I never said he would, BUT, he will will certainly be inconvenienced, hassled, ridiculed, & hopefully painfully beaten to a bloody pulp at some point because of it.
True. and at least now we can make a mental bookmark of his face and name and stay away!
Sadly, I’ve known more than my fair share of sociopaths (probably bad karma), so I’ve read a lot about this personality disorder. There’s a German word that describes them very well: scheusslichkeit. The rough translation is ABOMINATION. Think of them as komodo dragons dressed up as human beings – usually very charming, attractive and intelligent (on the surface at least).
They can’t feel guilt, pain, remorse, or love. So the best way to hurt or punish them is to discern what they value most (social standing, money, attention, etc.) and then take it away from them. Mr. Weinman really enjoys attention, so it’s too bad we can’t permanently lock him in solitary at a Supermax facility.
Of course, coating him in honey & hanging him upside down by the balls in the Everglades would be quite entertaining.
I can’t believe his parents put up the bail money…HA HA HA, I wish he were my kid, he’d rot with no bail put up & a 2nd class public defender. In fact, I probably wouldn’t even go to court, except maybe to tell the judge to put him away for a very, very long time.
How blind can parents be?
Teenager!!! He is a sick adult. why call him a teenager when he is legally a man. Being called a teenager makes one think he’s some cute 14-15 yr old-NOT!! He’s a psycho in the making. wonder if he had used a gun and shot at people and say lived some where else would he still be called a teenager and not what he is, a man who did what he did and he should be punished as such.
Also the word “sick” – NOT
EVIL – Yes
“Vile” is a good description. “Twisted”, “Depraved”, and “Demented” are also good terms…
I agree. I was just not as ambitious as you.
Fred, I’m flattered… You think I’m ambitious! Most of the time I get “not as arrogant as you” or “not as pompous as you” but ambitious? I like that… I will add it to my self-description “arrogant, narrow-minded, sadistic, ambitious prick.” Has a nice ring to it.
I was saying that you are ambitious because you had come up with so many other words for evil……
No I do not think this POS is ambitious….. ambition is usually associated with something constructive and he is clearly not that.
I was accepting the compliment with satyre and sarcasm. :) It’s what I do.
Wow, I’d like to smack that cocky look right off of his face. I hope he gets corn-holed on a daily basis by Bubba…
Ha when I worked in a prison one thing I learned is almost all of the inmates loved the animals that found their way into the grounds and would punish any inmate that attempted to hurt the stray cats, the ground squirrels, and such so I hope Jr goes to a real prison and finds out he ain’t so touch when surrounded with bad boys who like animals-my clerk was a gang banger with about 4 drug murders to his name but he loved the stray cats that wandered in-love to see this kid meet up with him……..
Yeah, I found this quote interesting: “In an interview with police, accused cat killer Tyler Weinman eagerly detailed how to dissect cats, even describing the ”tearing sound” made when cutting open a feline’s flesh”.
I’m curious what sound little Tyler would make if we did the same to him?
This kid reminds me of the middle son from Home Improvement, but a sick twisted psycho version. I know that a lot of this case hinges on circumstances, but I find it hard to believe he didn’t do because of the interview he gave to police. If he didn’t do these horrific killings, then he damn sure didn’t convince people he didn’t do when “In an interview with police, accused cat killer Tyler Weinman eagerly detailed how to dissect cats, even describing the ”tearing sound” made when cutting open a feline’s flesh, according to an arrest affidavit released Monday.” As I sit here holding my little black kitty that my husband found in Texas and drove home to me all the way in Florida, I am thankful that my husband found him so we could give him a safe & loving home. He still likes to nip/bite at you and scratch up my leather high back reading chairs, but he’ll grow out of the niping/biting and the chairs need to be recovered anyway. He damn sure doesn’t deserve to be killed for stupid little things like this. It just breaks my heart to think about what those 19 poor defenseless cats endured. One thing that just kills me to think about is the fact that these cats were probably coaxed to go with him lovingly, so they trusted him not to hurt them. Cats and dogs are the most loving creatures in the world once you win their trust and the fact that someone can be that demented just makes me want to personally string them up!
“…way in Florida, I am thankful that my husband found him so we could give him a safe & loving home. He still likes to nip/bite at you and scratch up my leather high back reading chairs”
You are far more saintly a person then I ever could be. I hope he turns into an awesome cat. =)
Ironically, I was just watching that MSNBC reality program that goes into the prisons and makes me scream with lauphter every minute I watch, so it is impossible for me to watch a single episode to the end…
Anyway the last time I watched they were at a prison where they give the convicts, even the ones on death row, therapy cats. It realy sucks for the cats- they have to wear a leash in the prisoners cell- so life sucks for the cats too.
My suspicion is that the cats behind bars are just another piece of rape meat like everyone else once the lights go out anyway.
I only let loose when I’ve had a few, well, alot too many down the hatch… If you know what I mean. ;)
I think the last time I got really plastered was the night before I deployed. I had twelve shots of tequila (takillya as I say) blacked out and woke up in Kuwait with my face plastered to my buddy’s shirt. I guess I fell asleep on his shoulder and drooled all over him. Poor guy.
NavyCop…hope this shows where it should.
Yes, unfortunately, I’m also Irish, which kicks my swearing up to a whole new level. :)
Thanks for serving as well..you have my utmost respect and gratitude for your sacrifice to this fine country.
Aw, now I’m blushing. I do what I can. I prefer to work hard sending the boys home, you know? I did the Customs Mission in Kuwait with NAVELSG Battalion Hotel. It was hot as balls in the customs tent, but it was worth it. I also did convoys to the airport with my best-buddy, Chewy (hairy like chewbacca, I swear, ugly s.o.b., too.) We had ICP blaring just to piss off the Muslims >:)
Well, you have done well, and again I appreciate anyone who serves and serves well. I will refrain from getting political on this site, and am neither a democrat or a republican…however, I absolutely adore our boys who serve and support them 100%.
Insane Clown Posse…lmao. Oh man, I grew up in Michigan, and they used to be pretty huge in Detroit. Not sure if they’re actually from there.
Hey Max! Why are comments posting wherever they want? That’s two I’ve had post in the wrong spot…
Some comments were deleted so the parent child relationship of some comments was also “orphaned”. Those orphaned comments aren’t placing well. It’s a reported bug in the Wordpress architecture.
Oh, because I was trying to reply to Maelstrom… But thanks for the explaination, Jason. One of the best and brightest, you are.
Dream on…as much as he deserves a long jail sentence he’s never going to see one…until he kills a person. As horrible and cruel as it is you’re going to be surprised when you see just how lightly the courts are going to slap this sick little boy on the wrist, especially considering the fact that he obviously comes from a wealthy family who can affor the 250 grand bail to keep his little disgusting ass free. Nobody with any authority to punish this creep is going to do so…bet on it. Judges are by and large corrupt evil people who keep the escort services and BDSM parlours in business and are probably secretly titillated by what this kid did….and cops are little more than hardened bullies with a badge who beat their own wives and kids so don’t they care about a cat either…No I’m afraid compassionate people are set to endure yet ANOTHER injustice at the hands of a jaded, callous and perverted US “justice” system.
Forensic Investigation of Animal Cruelty: A Guide for Veterinary and Law Enforcement Professionals by Leslie Sinclair, D.V.M., Melinda Merck, D.V.M., and Randall Lockwood, Ph.D. Two of the book’s three authors are with the ASPCA®(The American Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals®).
The authors, two veterinarians and a psychologist with years of clinical experience in veterinary forensics are acknowledged experts in their fields. Leslie Sinclair, D.V.M., is a forensics investigations and veterinary services consultant in Columbia, Md. Melinda Merck, D.V.M., and Randall Lockwood, Ph.D., are both with the ASPCA; Dr. Merck as a veterinary forensics consultant, and Dr. Lockwood as senior vice president for Anti-Cruelty Initiatives and Legislative Services.
The book is a comprehensive introduction to the emerging field of veterinary forensic investigation. Forensic science has gained popularity over the years due to evidential success in high profile criminal trials as well as in the public’s mind through television shows such as CSI: Crime Scene Investigation. Much like their counterparts in the human medical and science fields, veterinarians have a key role to play in recognizing and addressing animal abuse cases.
For example, in 2003, Dr. Lockwood assisted Salt Lake City and Denver area law enforcement officials in investigating the deaths of dozens of cats found dead over several months that summer. Forensics work helped lead officials to conclude the cats had likely been killed by animal predators and not a human killer. This year, Drs. Lockwood and Merck conducted a similar investigation for officials in Spokane, Washington, again proving that cat deaths there were also the work of predators.
http://www.aspca.org/pressroom/press-releases...
Can it get any clearer??
Can what get any clearer? The cases you mentioned in your next post, and all the lovely facts you’ve posted in this one, have very little to do with this case. There were, in fact, many more cat mutilations during that May-June period, but police ruled out almost all of them as dog attacks. The 19 they were left with were unquestionable NOT animal mutilations. It was because of the cases you mentioned that Miami cops were so careful. So, please, don’t try and muddy the water with a whole lot of facts that have no relation to Tyler Weinman’s case. It’s an old trick that lawyers use all the time, and it isn’t going to work in here – not today anyways.
Excellent post, Max. “DueProcess” has been posting all over the internet and making a fool of herself. She posts on facebook as “georgia view” and on topix and others as “fedupmedia”, etc… She spends the majority of her time posting 5-10 comments for every comment anyone else posts that doesnt see it her way. Shes been harassing people for weeks now. Of course the 19 cats were killed by a human. Tyler Weinman is that human. There are many more that could be Tyler but if they werent 100% sure it was a human kill, they left it off the charges. The 19 left are indeed human kills. Ignore the wingnut. Shes a 75 yr old crazy lady who needs a hobby.
Thanks claude, I appreciate that. We have a lot of experience with people like DueProcess here. I wish I had a dollar for every friend/family member of some of the people we’ve done stories on who tried to defend them with arguments that make defy logic and “facts” that are really just gossip and rumor. What DueProcess didn’t realize when she made her comments was that when I wrote this story, an important part of my research was centered on whether there was any chance the dead cats that Weinman got pinched for could be the result of animal attacks. Obviously, this was probably the worst place she could have picked to post this nonsense, and she’ll find that if she continues to annoy us, there are a lot of very intelligent people – all of them much smarted than me – who will have a great time handing her ass to her on a silver platter. You seem pretty sharp yourself, so feel free to join in the festivities if you want – the more the merrier.
BTW, thanks for the background information. She sounds like someone we just went back and forth with in the Tiffany Toribio thread. 1776_Observer also posted his drivel all over the Internet – in fact, I found one case where he just cut and pasted an old comment from another website and re-used it here. He was a special guy alright – LOL. Maybe we can hook him up with DueProcess. They both seem to have a lot of time on their hands and could probably use the companionship of another warm body.
While Eugenics has been discredited, can we please avoid tempting fate? If what they have is heritable, I wouldn’t wish it on my worst enemy.
Thanks for the welcome. I’ve been here b4 reading other stories and this one. The other was some gal names Jody who killed her boyfriend. I cant think of her last name at the moment but they are both mormon and were hawking some prepaid legal aid business or something along those lines. Have never posted b4. You guys seem to have things well in hand. Good job, btw.
You’re right, wouldn’t want to muddy the waters with scientific fact, actual articles, or anything crazy like that. Tell me MTC – where can I get one of those crystals balls you’re relying on to determine guilt before there has been any EVIDENCE/PROOF?? Maybe you’ve posted links to articles by respectable experts, grounded in objectivity and I just haven’t waded deep enough into the muck to find them? (nothing scarier than folks who, having their minds made up, refuse to expose themselves to reasonable explanations based on reality.)
Can you handle a little challenge to your preconceived ideas? Read the quotes again, if you dare:
“Lockwood, whose book, Forensic Investigation of Animal Cruelty: A Guide for Veterinary and Law Enforcement Professionals, will be released next year [pub. 2004, co-authored w/Melinda Merck], says wounds from wild predators often appear to be human-caused, even to trained eyes.
“The two phrases that always turn up are ‘cut with surgical precision’ and ‘drained of blood,’ ” Lockwood says. “These are very common with predator kills. The cuts look clean, and it bleeds out very quickly.
“People expect to find, if an animal has been killed by a predator, that it’s ripped apart, lying in a pool of blood. That’s not what you find. As wounds are cleaned by insects, natural bodily processes take over and the wounds tend to take on a slick, smooth appearance, looking as if they were done with a knife. People overlook the fact that the canine teeth of predators are, in essence, knives, and they leave a very clean cut.”
http://www.lakecityreporter.com/articles/2003/07/18/news/local/news02.txt
Randall Lockwood, vice president of research and educational outreach of the Humane Society of the United States and co-author of a soon-to-be-released book (2004 Animal Forensics book, co-authored w/ Melinda Merck!) that will guide police and veterinarians in investigating animal-cruelty cases.
————
Law enforcement in Miami-Dade really screwed this one up, but I can’t blame them totally – the ignorant elected officials pushed them to “do something!” Even they must be starting to realize — oops — everyone else who has done testing (pathology) in these cases of “cat mutilation” found out that animals did it… OMG! what do we do now??? Do the tests M-D, then do the mea culpa.
PS: hi Ricky ;)
To DueProcess:
I think you’re miss-characterizing Lockwood’s conclusions and briefs. He’s much more prolific in his admission of animal cruelty and the attacks on animals than he is on the false positive examples you’ve presented. As a statement of intent, he praises the sort of investigation that is pursuing cases like the one the defendant is engaged in.
“…The research reinforces what most police officers and the general public already believe—that those who intentionally hurt animals are not [otherwise] good, law-abiding citizens. Today we have a public that is more willing to report animal cruelty, police who are more willing to respond and prosecutors who are responsive to the strong public interest in seeing these cases taken seriously. In the case of young offenders, there is also the recognition that responding to such acts may provide the best opportunity for intervention in the life of an offender at a time when such action is most likely to be effective.”
–Interview With Randal Lockwood March 2007
http://advocacy.britannica.com/blog/advocacy/2007/03/randall-lockwood/
Randall Lockwood isn’t an advocate of ignoring cases of animal attacks, he’s an advocate of clear identification. Luckily he wrote the veritable bible on the topic, a book studied at Veterinary schools the world over. Given that the police possess both trained forensic teams and specifically employed Veterinarians in this case, it should be reasonable to even you that your argument is specious and far fetched.
Your argument seems to stress that 2 neighborhoods where Tyler lived were suffering animal attacks that were specifically targeting cats that were confused with attacks with humans. You seem to be stressing that what is at best “difficult” to believe is easier to believe than similar attacks with a common element aren’t related when added to the legal tracking of the suspect. A better argument would be that because Tyler’s incarceration did not stop the attacks (there were two while he was in custody), there might be some suspicion that they have the wrong man, but the police argue Tyler has an accomplice or accomplices, as outlined in the addendum of the affidavit.
Your presentation of Randall Lockwood’s book is spotty, disingenuous and less than complete. A thorough reading of the first few pages of that book would suggest that “dismissal” of an investigation on conjecture is not the pursuit of someone who is fascinated with the forensic process of research. Your expert is not as firmly(or even approaching) in your court as you claim.
Hehe – I waiting to see how long it takes DueProcess to respond to this comment Jason. I don’t think she has it in her myself. You basically smashed the entirety of her argument. Since I trashed her theory about the about the police not bothering to hire real experts, where DOES she go from here?
Oh ye of little faith Maxwell Kitty.
She will be back. People like this have such a burning need for attention and drama that they can’t stay away no matter how stupid they sound. You know it as well as I.
Her next reply will probably be an insulting attack on anyone but Jason. Unlike a certain paper-fastener troll who shall remain nameless (can we PLEASE ban him, please please, please????) this one is probably not stupid enough to take on Jason. Jason is the guy I would LEAST like to see posting under my name (unless it was to tell me how great I am, lol).
It was for the particular points he made, quoted in the article I cited:
“The two phrases that always turn up are ‘cut with surgical precision’ and ‘drained of blood,’ ” Lockwood says. “These are very common with predator kills. The cuts look clean, and it bleeds out very quickly.
“People expect to find, if an animal has been killed by a predator, that it’s ripped apart, lying in a pool of blood. That’s not what you find. As wounds are cleaned by insects, natural bodily processes take over and the wounds tend to take on a slick, smooth appearance, looking as if they were done with a knife. People overlook the fact that the canine teeth of predators are, in essence, knives, and they leave a very clean cut.”
This is the identical terminology used in S. Fl, (CO, UT, KS, TX, NY, Lauderhill. FL, even Miami-Dade.)
What I am positing is that while the majority has assumed human involvement based on the “appearance” of the remains, it is precisely the fact that they are described as such (“cut with ’surgical precision,” “drained of blood,” etc) that lends credence to the “animal predation” possibility.
By Dr. Lockwood’s own words, these cases give the strong *impression* of human involvement however, when the pathologists look closer, no such evidence exists, rather they find (in case after case) evidence of the razor sharp canine teeth of one animal predator or another.
I have maintained, consistently, wherever I have posted on this story, that all Miami-Dade has to do is run the tests, and that if they have done so, they should release the results immediately.
Question: if the tests have been completed, and if they support LE’s theory, then why haven’t they been released as yet? That’s a fair question, don’t you think?
“Question: if the tests have been completed, and if they support LE’s theory, then why haven’t they been released as yet? That’s a fair question, don’t you think”
Ummmm DP? You are new at this, aren’t you? Why wouldn’t LE release the information? Because that’s what a TRIAL is for. Because convictions have been overturned when information was released and was later determined to have impacted the jury. Because they don’t NEED to release that information.
I would flip your question around and say that the fact that charges have not been dropped would reinforce the idea that they have pretty good evidence based on the tests.
You, for all your complaining about the media, apparently have forgotten that trials are not held in the court of public opinion. We have no right to discovery, that is a benefit afforded exclusively to the participants in the case – the state and the defendant.
MtC — “…The 19 they were left with were unquestionable NOT animal mutilations. It was because of the cases you mentioned that Miami cops were so careful….”
Really? I’m impressed! Cops in Miami-Dade are more qualified in animal forensics than vets, animal control specialists, (all of whom have later been proved wrong in these cases)? Wow, I didn’t realize.
Unless they have farmed the work out to pathologists – the ONLY ONES QUALIFIED – and released scientific results which support the “human cruelty” charges and I somehow missed it? Because, apparently, even a majority of vets make the same mistake, assuming human involvement BEFORE the pathology reports and then, uh oh…. ANIMAL PREDATION.
Look! Up in the air! Miami-Dade SUPER COPS: able to leap to conclusions in a single bound, able to discern *cause* where lesser humans have failed — pathology tests? HA! Who needs ‘em? We have SUPER VISION! (& don’t go talking about animal forensic experts like Merck and Lockwood — what do they know? I laugh in the face of their expertise and experience! HA HA!)
Lady, the Miami police got those exact same experts that you take so much relish in quoting to make the determinations of whether or not the cats were killed by animals or not. I’m sorry that they forgot to inform you of that, but I think it’s safe to assume that a city as big as Miami can afford to hire the kind of experts you have based your entire ridiculous argument on. But no, let’s go with YOUR idea – that the Miami PD has no experience with forensics and didn’t get the best people available for a high-profile case like this one.
And acting like a raving lunatic only makes you look foolish, and completely undermines your arguement. How can you expect anyone to take you seriously if you behave like the village idiot?
You’re going to have to do a lot better than this if you think you’re going to make me look bad – Like I told claude, I REALLY did my homework before I wrote this article. Your first effort has been very dissapointing.
Actually, this response was meant for the Max, but Claude can respond to it, too if he likes ;)
MtC, “…the Miami police got those exact same experts that you take so much relish in quoting to make the determinations of whether or not the cats were killed by animals or not.”
So far, all you’ve done is blown smoke. At least I post credible information, with links to verify their suppositions. What do you have? More assumptions, this time about what I *will/would do* based again, I presume, on your incredible instincts??
You’ve stated, emphatically, that Miami-Dade has conducted the scientific testing, that they “relied on the experts” in their determination of which cats were killed by animals and which by a person. Really?
Post the link to that news flash. Post anything that makes your case. Then, like in an actual debate, we’ll take our opposing views toe-to-toe. No, you’d rather just tell me how wrong I am… based on?? Surprise me.
(why do so many of you spend so much time denouncing anyone that brings a contrary point of view? is there some “conformity code,” to post here? lol)
Show me the proof that they didn’t. All you have are assumptions, while I’m going by sources that I’ve promised to keep anonymous. I’m sure YOU won’t believe it, but everyone else here knows my reputation for going to just about any lengths to get the information I need. Take a look at the Elyse Mamino threads and you might get an idea about what I’m talking about. I’ve used the phone to my advantage many times, and you’d be surprised what people will tell you if you have a reputation for keeping your word and promise to keep them anonymous. While I don’t know the specifics, I can guarantee you that Miami PD did exactly as I said. Yes, I’m an amateur, but I’m a VERY GOOD amateur.
You, on the other hand, are an arrogant, self righteous fool with delusions of grandeur, and I’m making it my mission to expose you for the fraud that you are. You’re an embarrassment to people like me, people who believe things like truth and honor actually mean something. To us, the truth trumps everything, even if it means we sometimes discover things that compel us to admit we’re wrong – To you, the truth is a minor inconvenience that often interferes with your goal of proving to everyone that you were right all along.
So far, despite the grandiose claims of “reputation,” all you’ve impressed me w/is what a pompous a$$ you are.
You know nothing about me, yet you make all these pronouncements regarding my motivations, dismissing the possibility that I actually seek truth for noble reasons. Is it really so hard to understand that I might be disgusted with the mentality that eats up the garbage spewed out by the media? That I might be sick of how media carries water for the state with no concern for truth… guilt or innocence mean nothing to these lackeys who ask NOT THE FIRST question to discover inherent biases in the “reports” they are given… no, profit is all, who gives a damn if anyone gets hurt in the process!
The leaps, the accusations, the grand assumptions you’ve made about me all underscore your inability to remain objective. You have everyone, and everything all “figured out.,” or at least you have portrayed yourself in this way.
Ever think that your “sources” have their own self interest guiding them, ever doubt their veracity? See, I’m ASKING, not assuming… perhaps you have wondered, but like the “members of the media” you might think it’s worth the risk? Maybe you have such tremendous confidence in your ability to discern truth that you doubt you could be deceived…?
Here’s why I post on this story: Too many have swallowed whole every “press release” from the very people w/a vested interest in portraying a particular theory. That makes me suspicious. The hatred and venom directed at one young man BEFORE anything has been provided even resembling verifiable evidence, makes me ill. It causes me to fear for America… What have we become?
If we rely on “news” for information, we will get a select version, that’s why I dig deeper, that’s why I research what the real experts have to say and give little credence to the *entertainment news experts.” All paid, all self-interested. Where are the investigative journalists? Why isn’t anyone asking any questions?
I also am fully aware that we can’t know anyone’s guilt or innocence before a trying of the facts… and that’s why it’s so damn important to totally lean on the protections of the presumption of innocence, etc. If we don’t fight for these all important rights now, we might not be able to later.
So, you don’t like Tyler. So what. I will fight for his rights to a fair trial because I desire to preserve those rights for myself, for my family if we ever have need of them. Just so happens that in doing so I have learned a great deal about what pathologists have discovered about these so-called “mutilation” cases. It’s happened all over the country, the lingo describing the remains is IDENTICAL, the absolute only difference I’ve found? Miami-Dade is the only community that failed to do the testing before moving on an arrest. I happen to believe that once they have done it, they too will see what every other one of these communities have seen. Am I not entitled to this well-researched opinion?
And now to prove how full of it you really are…
“July 6th, 2009
Miami-Dade Officials:
-dismiss the case/drop the charges (having now seen the affidavit which you sought to conceal and finding that you did not even have “probable cause” for the arrest; it’s the right thing to do)
-run the tests (forensic testing of the remains),
-if it is found that a “person” wasn’t even involved in these “killings,” announce the findings via “press conference.”
-restore Tyler’s name: clear these charges from his record. (seek to have vile websites dedicated to destroying his reputation, removed)
-pursue those who have threatened his life
-FIRE the County Commissioner who made the despicable comments about Tyler early on, which helped to fan the flames. To wit: “…[Tyler Weinman is] twisted and depraved, somehow really not right as a human being.” – Katy Sorenson, Miami-Dade County Commisioner (to her everlasting shame.)
Have the courage to set things right, THEN you will have restored some of the damage caused to your city’s image by what appears to have been a rush to judgment.”
Seems like someone doesn’t want him to have a trial after all.
Due Process, I am going to go easy on you here. Don’t take advantage of it, because I am not a nice person when I get annoyed.
I agree with much of what you have written. I am not sure that this kid is guilty, and I am almost certain that he will get off unless there is compelling physical evidence that he is guilty. I also agree with people being spoon-fed by a lazy media with an agenda. I don’t know about human vs. animal kills, but that’s not for me to decide. That’s why we have trials and juries and judges. If Max says that thought was considered though, it’s good enough for me until the trial.
But here is the problem. It’s YOU. Or rather, how you came onto this board posting with a HUGE chip on your shoulder and a nasty-ass attitude. You expected a fight, your prepped for it and you set it up. And anyone can see it by tracking your posts.
People here are willing to listen to a well thought-out argument. Trust me, I know – I am often the only voice of dissent in a story, and I have NEVER had anyone attack me for my opinion. I have been ignored, sure, but when I am ignored, I don’t come back screaming and insulting everyone and their brother. I just hope that I have given people another possibility to chew on.
You really need to think about what you are doing. If you are trying to impact people, quiet resolve is much more influential than swinging virtual fists.
And stop insulting Max. He is a damned good guy, who works his ass off for this site. You are guaranteed to piss off a whole bunch of people if you go after him.
One thing you need to learn is that just because you say something out loud doesn’t make it true. You ask us to judge you by you words. We prefer to look at your actions instead. Jason and I have trashed your entire argument, yet you persist in arguing the same tired points. I’ve told you I based my conclusions of facts that didn’t come from newspaper articles, but you insist “Too many have swallowed whole every ‘press release’ ”
Now you ask us to believe that you have some patriotic motivation. Honestly, if instead of insulting our intelligence with the weak evidence you brought to the table you made this the focus of your argument, I probably would have given you the benefit of the doubt and stayed out of this discussion. Believe it or not, I respect people who have opinions that are not the status quo. But I resent people who challenge my hard work with bogus theories and half truths, and that’s exactly what you did. And I’m the kind of guy who calls them like I see them – if that makes me a pompous ass, so be it. At least I can say I’ve never tried to convince people I was right in any of my stories – I present my evidence and let the reader draw his own conclusion. Do I get angry sometimes at some of the more heinous crimes I’ve written about, and editorialize more than I should – sure I do, but not in this case. I even stated in my original story on Weinman:
“I waited a few days to write this story, because I wanted to take my time and wade through all the bullshit that’s out there about this case. I also wanted to be comfortable in my conclusions, because if the cops are wrong about this kid, his life is ruined.”
So you see, I’m wasn’t out to hang Tyler Weinman, I was intent on finding out the truth. And I did the best I could, without relying on the media or police reports or others who have a vested interest in convicting SOMEONE. I take what I do here seriously – What bothers me about people like yourself with an agenda is you are only interested in proving your point. The truth always seems to take a back seat to that.
Claude – I stand by every word posted, which you have copy/pasted here. Read my “claims” carefully. (Based on the affidavit they sought to conceal… if the tests come back w/evidence that wild animals are to blame… etc.) If the tests are done and they prove human involvement, if ANY physical evidence is returned that provides proof of Tyler’s involvement in these deaths, you can check back to see what I have to say at that point. I’m not hiding anything I write.
(comments in response to Mazzi, and Max to follow)
Mazzi — I appreciate your thoughtful words of advice. I “cut my teeth” on the Topix thread and was floored by the venomous rage. I was told I should grow a thicker skin. I did. Perhaps, since this is a site that selects candidates for HELL, I might have assumed incorrectly that those posting hatred toward the accused in this case had, jumped the gun… I don’t think I was too far off. (cont.)
Mazzi cont. As for “attacking Max,” I have exercised my right to self-defense only. If someone disagrees, no problem, but at least have the courtesy to do so with some civility. I will reciprocate. (Jason’s post and my response is a fair example.) I will not spout off on anything I don’t know about, and am always interested in a fair hearing for all sides, but I have been attacked from the moment I first posted here, and initially, I had only posted two articles which I thought very relevant.
In any case Mazzi, point taken. I’m willing to call a truce and have some intelligent debate, but if people are going to come out teeth bared, insulting me personally, I’m going to respond. Is that unreasonable?
MAX:
When you came at me both barrels firing, after posting two articles I thought were important information to add to the discussion, how was I supposed to react? Shrink and cry? If you disagree, if you have “sources” that have inside information, then you are head and shoulders above the many others who have spewed hatred base soley on the crap we’ve seem on TV, read in the news, etc. IMO, it is inexcusable to vent such blind hatred WITHOUT any evidence. I stand by this. If you have info that no one else is privy to, then it will come out as the case progresses. Until then, all the rest of us can go on is eating the garbage “out there” or stepping back and digging a little deeper for ourselves. I chose the latter, not having an inside scoop.
Think beyond the chain gun response.
You fired out, what you felt was a polished argument that had weathered the storm of other websites and postings. The problem is that it came off as an arrogant ignorance of the audience you were posting to.
I don’t always think these people are guilty. I think Tyler is guilty for a very specific set of reasons, and I’ll post them so you can go over them, but my point is that you came here swinging a very big chip on your shoulder from a lot of other arguments. It came off like you were a relative. We’ve made jokes about the kind of posts we get from relatives. They follow a formula. If you’d opened up with the doggerel about Judge not, lest ye also be judged, I think you’d have never recovered from the flames. There is a way to penetrate the hardened hearts here, liberal, conservative, independent, angry or otherwise, and I’ve actually been swayed by it a few times, only to discover that the persuasive speech didn’t have all of the facts.
Step 1: Present your opinion (“I think he’s innocent because I think there actually is an animal causing all of these killings”)
Step 2: Declare your baggage(“I’ve been fighting about this on the Internet for over a week, and I’m a little shell shocked from the flames”
Step 3: Present your new evidence (“There are these articles I found from the ASPCA and this noted Veterinarian who wrote the main textbook for Animal Forensics that seems to suggest it’s too easy to confuse canine bites and natural predation with human attacks. Here’s the short snippet in quotes that I think says it best, notice sharp and surgical precision. You can read the rest of the article here.”)
Step 4: concede your reservations (“He might be guilty, but I think he’s being railroaded because of political pressure. I don’t think he’s getting a fair shake at this because there’s a greater impetus to prosecute him than to do good detective work”)
Step 5: Ask leading questions that help to establish a dialog. (“Does anyone here have any more information on this that might help me shed some light? Anyone have any pictures?”)
Step 6: Recognize that we’re mostly amateurs and real people and that some of us have sources that you could only dream of and maybe you have sources we could only dream of. (“My brother is a Vet and he saw… blah blah blah.”
You came on strong, dictated what we should all know and assumed it was unassailable. Nothing says come and climb all over your “shit” like a sign that says “don’t walk on the grass.” Nothing weakens an argument more than a lie or half-truth, but an arrogant argument is a close second.
I think there’s a case here, but probably not in the animal attack conversation you’re choosing. If it were me, I’d have focused on the 2 deaths AFTER he was in custody.
I think the article you cited was a good one in 2004, but is much weaker post 2007 and having read the portion of the intro to the book cited, and then perusing the index of that same text book. While I was at it I IM’d my friend who graduated from the Vet school at NCSU a few years ago and she said, “yeah, that’s one of my text books. You don’t really get past that one. We all read it or have used it for research,”
That was my ace in the hole. Step number 7. Is plan for your next post. I planned on using that and a few other tidbits in retaliation for whatever you might choose to say next.
Jason, thanks for the pointers and the time taken for advise.
Copying from your post:
”I think he’s innocent because I think there actually is an animal causing all of these killings”
”I’ve been fighting about this on the Internet for over a week, and I’m a little shell shocked from the flames” (Topix was a nightmare!)
”There are these articles I found from the ASPCA and this noted Veterinarian who wrote the main textbook for Animal Forensics that seems to suggest it’s too easy to confuse canine bites and natural predation with human attacks. Here’s the short snippet in quotes that I think says it best, notice sharp and surgical precision. You can read the rest of the article here.”
”He might be guilty, but I think he’s being railroaded because of political pressure. I don’t think he’s getting a fair shake at this because there’s a greater impetus to prosecute him than to do good detective work”
One thing about me, I learn fast. I’m not afraid to stand up for myself, and names don’t hurt me, but I can say that I definitely experience shell shock posting @ the only other open forum I’ve ventured on to. I didn’t especially intend to carry that defensiveness over here, but I think I was “fully prepared” for battle once the attacks started. In any case, in just the few exchanges this evening it’s be made evident that here I am dealing with intelligent people who can actually “debate” the issues.
Tomorrow’s a new day. Truce?
Next lesson I suppose.
Never hand someone a loaded gun.
These 19 attacks were specifically culled from the 63 original attacks because they were definitively proven to be human attacks not easily confused with animal attacks. While I’ll concede that with a number like 19, even some of those could have bad lab work or poor identification, I don’t think it’s reasonable to say, after they ruled less than a 1/3rd of the total attacks were valid that it’s reasonable to say that anything short of a 1/3rd of those remaining were anything short of full blown human attacks without discounting entirely that they know how to investigate crimes. This becomes a system of proof and disproof where you’d be arguing for total incompetence on the part of law enforcement, which while mildly amusing in the Dukes of Hazzard, is less than reasoned. They do catch criminals from time to time and they did have a budget on this case to at the very least discuss the cases with practicing Vets and they do have pathologists on lab staff. Assuming they didn’t us lab staff for this case is unreasonable.
These 19 attacks were connected with Tyler’s travel route through two means of tracking his location–cell phone locus tracking, a commonly used and admissible evidence trail and physical and electronic tailing of the suspect to the scenes of crimes. Tyler was homed in on because the police had the two prior arrests for marijuana. That was reasonable cause to put him under surveillance and the fact they busted him a third time in May makes an attack on that surveillance or the term “rail-roading” moot. You can argue that he’s not the cat killer, but he was in possession of an illegal substance and committing crimes–arguably smaller or less severe than cat killing.
The police had experience with Tyler so they pursued him. I think it’s reasonable to argue that an 18 year-old living part-time lives between his two parents aren’t able to grow their own marijuana–Tyler had one marijuana possession charge. Additionally, normally sociopaths are rarely able to group with other sociopaths at such a young age, but since the police stress their may be an accomplice, you might argue that Tyler knows who the cat killer actually is and is in fact the cat killer’s friend–and is hiding him.
If Tyler knew who the cat killer was, why the special conversation about the “sound of tearing skin” that cats make? That was something Tyler volunteered. That’s neither defensive or reasonable in the context of the investigation. Could it be that Tyler is emulating a specific Hollywood icon for the police and public? This toying conversation with the police is a tactic of several TV and Movie personalities, most in part based on the Silence of the Lamb supporting character, Hannibal Lecter. Hannibal Lecter is a literary pastiche of serial killers. He’s the Russian cannibal Andrei Chikatilo (arrested and tried shortly before the movie The Silence of the Lambs came out), he’s the smiling Ted Bundy, and the reasonable sounding Jeffrey Dahlmer, fencing with the court while fully admitting his acts and something much more larger than life–a sociopath who is smarter than everyone else. Why embrace those stereotypical icons unless Tyler wanted to be thought of as something Dexter like? Someone who was capable of these crimes?
But Sociopaths are noted for their weaknesses. There’s documented evidence that sociopaths have difficulty organizing their thoughts. There’s a medical and psychological evaluation whereby a sociopath can be modeled and that model is being applied to Tyler–even though I’m betting Tyler’s attorney is going to avoid the EEG/CT scan that might help confirm the diagnosis.. Tyler’s a young, impressionable kid who suddenly started verbally fencing with the police, adding an intensity and disturbing attitude before he finally shut up? Perhaps this is what Tyler “thinks” he should be doing in this case. Something he thinks he should be doing because he’s personally guilty or wants to brag to the other party when he gets out of jail.
If you think Tyler’s innocent, can you provide a reason for all of the fishy behavior? When it comes to court, they don’t need a pile of physical evidence to convict him. If they manage to bring forth enough circumstantial evidence (admissible in court) and pile on things like the actual interview tape, it’s going to be hard for a jury not to see Tyler as the culprit when he plays games with the arresting officers. That stereotype is going to live in at least 8 of those jurors. It’s why you have such an uphill battle here, because Tyler isn’t acting like an innocent when he does these things. He’s acting like a punk who thinks he knows what he’s doing.
Jason, yes, I would like to tackle the challenges you’ve thrown down, I too have consider each of these claims. Will post my response in parts 1(a-d) to 7, at the current bottom of this TW thread.
Jason, finally responding to your post (above). Think we’ve covered most of it so I’m just going to address the one point that you have stated is a big obstacle for you, the “tearing sound” comment. Not sure whether this is a re-post, but here’s a ‘hypothetical’ scenario re: that first interrogation:
Detective: I understand you took dissection classes in High School, is that right Tyler? and that you actually had to dissect a cat? Tell me what that was like… you’re right it does sound pretty gross! What was the worst part of the dissection, for you? (TW talks about several things that he didn’t like about the dissection class, mentions the awful sound, the det. pushes this point wanting more “detail” than Tyler has offered, …Tyler struggles for a better description, maybe offers “I don’t know, it’s just a gross sound…it made me feel sick to my stomach,” detective pushes more, several descriptions are dismissed, until Tyler says “tearing” and that’s that…) Must have been hard, especially since you said you like cats… Tell me more? Where do they get cats for dissection? (Tyler relates what his teacher told the class about Mexico, etc.)… your obviously an intelligent guy Tyler, any idea who might be killing these cats? (TW has no idea) Okay, but with your experience dissecting cats (TW interjects that he’s only dissected one cat, in biology class), detective: sure but at least you have some knowledge in this area so maybe you can help me figure this thing out? … how do you think someone would even go about mutilating these cats? what kind of tools would they need to make the kind of cuts we’ve found? (Tyler doesn’t know, offers a meaningless guess)
Perhaps TW’s eagerness was from his mistaken belief that the detective finally believed him, that he just wanted Tyler to help him somehow, maybe the detective made him feel like a buddy and the compliments were a little nice… Tyler even relates to his “new friend” that he love cats, that he’s been so concerned about all the ‘cat killer’ news that he joined a FB group to try to stay aware of what was going on, he even asked his mom if they could bring a stray that had been hanging around their house, inside – so it would be safe! He explains how the cat scratched his neck when he first picked it up (normal for a stray, possibly feral cat)… the detective oohs and aahs about how nasty the scratch is (sure hope you cleaned that up Tyler, looks bad…), and TW “getting animated” tells the detective; that’s nothing! look what it did to my back! when I put it on my shoulder to bring it inside, it freaked out and ran down my back to stay outside! here, look! (TW lifts his shirt “eager” that the detective would see he was telling the truth) the detective comments on how bad the scratches are! …. mind if we take some pictures? (said the spider to the fly…)
Jason, my husband hunts whitetail deer and so, I asked him what ’sound’ does removing the skin make? He described it as a “ripping, or a tearing sound, because you’re separating it from the connective tissue, if you’re using the knife you won’t hear it but sometimes we just get hold of part of it and pull down and then you do hear that sound.” Then I Googled “cat dissection,” and there it is: skin, connective tissue, and muscle. As long as the connective tissue is intact, there would be ’sound’ associated with its removal.
First off this is a new line, and I like it. I was getting a little frustrated by the continuation of the “are these animal killings.”
I’m not going into those too much more until we have more.
Yeah… That sound is made in freshly dead flesh, not in animals treated for dissection. Even if you freeze the animal, the skin doesn’t tear it. I know about it from slaughtering animals. Your husband knows about it from dressing a kill. How does Tyler know about it?
How does Tyler know about “the sound?”
Jason, am I wrong in this assumption? How could we find out?
re-posting:
Then I Googled “cat dissection,” and there it is: skin, connective tissue, and muscle. As long as the connective tissue is intact, there would be ’sound’ associated with its removal.
Jason, re: “sound” – two points:
1. researching “cat dissection” I came across this which, to me, implies that the skin will not simply peel away, but will instead require some measure of force in particular areas… force that would create a sound:
— CAREFULLY TEASE THE SKIN AWAY from the underlying muscle (or bone) with a blunt instrument (fingers and thumbs work well). The cottony material which ties the skin down to the body is called superficial fascia. Watch the skin so that you leave all tissue on the body. If you come to a difficult area, work around and behind it for a better approach. Here are the problem areas to which muscle may adhere to the skin: 1) the flanks, 2) the neck, 3) the shins, and especially 4) the head . Do not tear or remove underlying muscle, but note that force is occasionally needed.—
2. In further discussion w/my husband (hunting) , and to the point of ‘condition’ of animal (i.e. “frozen”) he related that he once downed a deer that was very difficult to track, when he did find it, the outer layer was frozen (had been laying out in sub-freezing temps)… when dressing it shortly afterward, it was so cold his hands were numb, and yes, it still made the “tearing sound.” (he also noted that the outer layer of meat was frozen)
I saw your photos in the unapproved posts (I can’t approve them, Max will eventually).
When dealing with a recently dead animal, my knife would cut into the skin, and then I would pull back with a significant amount of force to expose the meat. There was a loud tearing sound. When we cut into the treated cow, there was the sound of moisture escaping, but to call it tearing would miss the point. There was a distinct difference between the two sounds. One sounded very much like the rip of cloth, but still fluid and distinctive. The other was the sound a pot of boiling water makes when you remove the lid, like the exhaling of breath.
You cut and cure hams in temperatures close to or below freezing( 30 to 40 days at 40 degrees or less to cure ham, so you don’t want to take any chances that you’ll get a warm spot and spoil the hams), so the air is clear, the meat is often frozen by the time you get to butchering the next animal, and sound carries very well in the shed. You use a saw to cut through flesh and bone cleanly, so perhaps the sound of the saw hides the tearing, but if you’re still pulling away skin, the frozen connective tissue and the frozen meat are different consistencies. They come apart pretty easily from the fat you’re trying very hard to collect. This is a process and you deal with several animals.
Maybe a deer is different because the connective tissue doesn’t have as much fat it’s anchored to. Fat does tear away. Whether a cat’s flesh is more like a deer than a hog, I’m not certain, but the cow I saw butchered ( I was not helping, and I was paying more attention to the conversation from the butcher than the process which was novel, but I was a little disgusted by) was much more like the hog butchering than the deer butchering. The deer had already been field dressed. It was full of newspaper and was frozen solid. My Uncle worked near an outdoor fire to get the skin off and it peeled off the meat leaving a sheening protective sheath of what I assume was connective tissue beneath. He had to cut only a small amount here and there to pull the skin away. Other times it simply came free with a sharp jerk that didn’t make a tearing sound like that made when you cut into a chicken or hog.
Yeah, I think you’re missing my point
I’ve dissected animals in classes and I’ve helped to render animals for food.
One of these actions makes the sound, the other does not. Only recently dead animals have connective tissue that makes the sound because the connective tissue either dissolves or breaks down quickly. Preserved animals do not make that tearing sound.
Jason, and I’m certainly not trying to spar with you, but this is a vitally important point and I have felt compelled to find out more…
This (graphic photos) clearly shows the connective tissue remains intact:
http://bio.bd.psu.edu/cat/External_Anatomy/index.htm#skinning
(see also the description re: dissection; removal of skin, which I posted moments ago)
Max – just spotted WHY everything turned south after my first two posts here! I have been writing on this for so long maybe I hit burnout, but when I arrived here HUA and just threw the two articles out WITHOUT making the vital connections… well, duh! Here’s what I should have included w/initial posts:
Alleged cat mutilation cases were occurring in Salt Lake City and Denver, concurrently. In Denver, a 10 agency task force was formed, in both locales criminal profilers were called in, rewards were announced, communities were warned about a cat serial killer on the loose, anger and hysteria grew, pressure was on LE to catch the psychopath(s) they believed responsible, vets and animal control confirmed that the kills were human related because of how the remains appeared, news releases used terminology like, “cut with surgical precision,” “the remains were posed, as if to taunt the owner,” etc. all implying human involvement.
It was into these circumstance that Dr. Lockwood entered. Pathology testing determined that no human was involved, all cases were attributed to animal predation. Low key press release. End of story. Millions spent, absolute certainty driving the investigations, one area (either, one of these two areas or some other I’ve read of recently – there are many) was so certain, that LE had 4 suspects!)
Similar cases, same jargon, same certainty, same hysteria, across the country have proven likewise to be animals, not persons: WA, UT, CO, NY, KS, TX, and in South Florida (Lauderhill’s 17 cases, & at least 14 of M-D’s 33 cases)
Think it would have helped had I pulled this together to begin with? I’m an idiot. Note to self: never, ever, ever assume anything!
Investigator: Most cat killings are done by animals
By REBECCA JONES Scripps Howard News Service
Published: Friday, July 18, 2003 10:34 PM EDT
As the feline death toll mounted, the cat-owning public became more nervous, convinced that its pets were being abducted, killed and mutilated at the hands of sickos.
Eventually, 67 pets would fall victim before the spate of cat mutilations in Tustin, Calif., in the summer of 1989 came to an end.
The parallels to the cat mutilations being investigated in the Denver area and in Salt Lake City are apparent.
But the country’s leading investigator of reports of animal mutilations insists that while there no doubt are cruel humans walking the streets, bent on killing animals, the vast majority of the cats that died in Tustin were victimized by four-legged or winged predators. He believes the same is probably true now.
“Over two years, there were perhaps 10 cat killings that were due to human intervention in Tustin,” says Randall Lockwood, vice president of research and educational outreach of the Humane Society of the United States and co-author of a soon-to-be-released book that will guide police and veterinarians in investigating animal-cruelty cases.
“There are lots of things that kill cats: cars, eagles, owls, cougars … and malicious people. The world is a dangerous place for an outdoor cat. The key message is to keep your cat indoors – not just until this ends but forever.”
It’s the same message breeders and animal-shelter workers have been stressing for years to people who adopt cats. Most won’t place cats into adoptive homes unless the families agree to keep the animals indoors at all times, or else to take them outside only on leashes or to provide them with safely fenced and roofed outdoor play areas.
The statistics are hard to dismiss: The life expectancy of an indoor cat is 15 to 20 years, says Kathy Macklem, director of the Cat Care Society; cats allowed to roam outside live an average of just two to five years. Feral cats, who never come indoors, live even shorter lives.
Lockwood, whose book, Forensic Investigation of Animal Cruelty: A Guide for Veterinary and Law Enforcement Professionals, will be released next year, says wounds from wild predators often appear to be human-caused, even to trained eyes.
“The two phrases that always turn up are ‘cut with surgical precision’ and ‘drained of blood,’ ” Lockwood says. “These are very common with predator kills. The cuts look clean, and it bleeds out very quickly.
“People expect to find, if an animal has been killed by a predator, that it’s ripped apart, lying in a pool of blood. That’s not what you find. As wounds are cleaned by insects, natural bodily processes take over and the wounds tend to take on a slick, smooth appearance, looking as if they were done with a knife. People overlook the fact that the canine teeth of predators are, in essence, knives, and they leave a very clean cut.”
http://www.lakecityreporter.com/articles/2003/07/18/news/local/news02.txt
I guess Tylers mom has her house up for sale. I guess when your kid kills the neighbors pets, tea time is never the same after that.
What a vacuous, calloused statement.
I can see why you feel at home here; sending all the “bad people” to hell…. (*I don’t need proof to condemn anyone! I just know mwhahahaha* – is that it?)
Haven’t you harassed enough people here: http://www.topix.net/forum/city/fort-lauderdale-fl/TGVNK1V41S0N0OQRA/p22#lastPost
here: http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=92674092627
and here: http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=96929111953
Get a grip. What are you, his grandma?
I’m really disappointed with her argument claude – she basically admitted it’s all based on her assumption that the Miami-Dade police didn’t bother to hire the best experts available to make the final determination on whether or not animals were responsible for the 19 cat’s Weinman is charged with killing. In a high-profile case like this no less. That’s a pretty weak foundation to support the smug, superior attitude she carries around with her. She appears to be just one more of those pseudo-intellectual bullshit artists who invade this site on a regular basis.
Let’s see, I assume that something has not been done (the pathology testing needed to determine whether animal or human killed cats) BECAUSE there has been nothing reported on it and there is no reference to any testing in the affidavit; you assume testing has been done BECAUSE it’s a “high-profile case like this.”
Come on. Really, who do you think is making the more reasonable assumption; the one who bases the belief on known facts (no testing has been reported/no test results have been released), or the one who blindly trusts that they must have done it because, after all, *it’s a big case!* ??
Not in the affidavit, not in their official press releases (which is really surprising, because every other unsupported theory is), so I ask you: where did you find the evidence that the testing has been done/is complete, and please post a link.
I think she might be a relative. Tylers mom, Alba Weinman is actually Alba Alonso, from New Jersey. DP, usually shows up from Leesburg Georgia or Albany Georgia. There are a few Alonso’s in that area who formerly lived in new jersey as well. Leesburg GA has a population of about 2500 people. Just a hunch. I could be wrong.
You’re right claude, she’s posting from Albany GA. She certainly acts like a family member – unreasonable, illogical, and just a little bit nutty.
claude says: July 13, 2009 at 5:32 pm, “…I think she might be a relative.”
That’s it? Why is it that those who take the position *guilty, until PROVEN innocent” (the exact opposite of what the American system of justice is premised on), seem to have such difficulty sticking to the questions put to them? Could it be because they have nothing?
You assume the accused is guilty, you assume I’m a relative, etc. Wrong.
Oh, and hey, just so you don’t think I’m impolite; *thanks* for posting the links to the FB groups/Topix thread: a lot of great information, hopefully someone that stops by here will check it out ;)-
If you think for a minute that i believe you are about innocent vs. guilty, think again. No, you are about freeing tyler at all costs, to the point where you harass anyone over and over again who doesn’t see it your way. Yes i assume he is guilty. You bet i do. As for you being relative, i don’t know one way or the other. It’s not I who did the work. Its not your questions that are being ignored. Its you. You come off as nothing but a nutjob. And i’m more than happy to post those links, so people can see you’re a nutjob. Don’t you get it? No one wants to hear from you. It really is that simple. There is just simply something not quite right in your head. All you do over and over is continue to post links from cases not even related to this. I read them before you ever posted them. There are major differences in them, and no i’m going to debate the point with you. I think he’s guilty, period. Live with it.
claude says: (A LOT) @ July 13, 2009 at 6:49 pm
Wow Claude, thanks for straightening me out! Here I thought, if I tried really hard, stuck to the facts, posted links to verifiable sources, distinguished experts, etc. that you would all make nice and at least think about it. Gosh. You sure saved me a lot of time and trouble by chewing me up one side and down the other like that. Taking the time and spending the effort to explain all this to me… what can I say? Thanks, so much.
Now, thanks to Claude, I finally see the error of my thinking!
The State never errs.
Cops never err.
News never lies.
Hysteria and subjectivity are not “bad” things.
Most people are intelligent and able to ascertain the “truth” w/o the benefit of trials; due process, presumption of innocence, habeas corpus, and all that other silly stuff.
The government has my best interest at heart, and I can trust them.
Man, did I have it backwards! Thanks again Claude.
(As I’ve posted elsewhere: I don’t post for your benefit, I’m not looking to make friends with any of you, I could care less what you think of me. I post for ONE REASON ONLY: that others popping in might see that there really are some of us left who have the courage to stand in front of a lynch mob and yell: “Wait a minute! Could we be missing something here?!”)
DueProcess,
Do us all a favor and remove your head from your ass. This little bastard could confess to killing these cats, show you a video of him doing it, and throw a recently killed cat on your face and you’d still think that he was innocent.
Perhaps when he moves onto killing humans, because I’m sure he won’t be convicted you’ll wake the hell up and realize the error of your ways. That is doubtful of course, because you’ll more than likely defend him for that as well.
Oi vey…the brain damaged these days. What do we do with your kind ?
Great post. Right on the money. When she started this, he was only innocent unless convicted, but any of us who have watched her over the weeks pretty much come to the same conclusion. If Tyler takes a plea bargain she will claim he did so out of fear of the public and that he didn’t really do it. If he is convicted by a jury she will claim he was tried and convicted in the media and he really didn’t do it. Shes in so deep now, what else could she really say?
Thanks Claude, and welcome….you appear to be new. Correct me if I’m wrong.
If there’s one thing I’ve learned on this site, aside from there being a hell of a lot of incredibly bright, kind decent people…is that no matter the case, no matter how horrific the details, there is ALWAYS going to be some intellectually dishonest, morally bankrupt, spastic malcontent who will defend the guilty and dismiss evidence that is so glaringly obvious to the rest of us.
So far, all you’ve done is blown smoke. At least I post credible information, with links to verify their suppositions. What do you have? More assumptions, this time about what I *will/would do* based again, I presume, on your incredible instincts??
You’ve stated, emphatically, that Miami-Dade has conducted the scientific testing, that they “relied on the experts” in their determination of which cats were killed by animals and which by a person. Really?
Post the link to that news flash. Post anything that makes your case. Then, like in an actual debate, we’ll take our opposing views toe-to-toe. No, you’d rather just tell me how wrong I am… based on?? Surprise me.
(why do so many of you spend so much time denouncing anyone that brings a contrary point of view? is there some “conformity code,” to post here? lol)
Maelstrom says, “Do us all a favor and remove your head from your ass. This little bastard could confess to killing these cats, show you a video of him doing it, and throw a recently killed cat on your face and you’d still think that he was innocent.
Perhaps when he moves onto killing humans, because I’m sure he won’t be convicted you’ll wake the hell up and realize the error of your ways. That is doubtful of course, because you’ll more than likely defend him for that as well.”
As eloquently as you’ve stated your case (sarcasm) the fact remains he has NOT confessed, there is no physical evidence thus far, no eyewitnesses to a crime (including, apparently, the many cops that were watching him), he has NOT yet had a trial (& if this gets that far based on the NADA they have, I’ll be surprised), no one has ever seen him mistreat any animal ever nor has he given any indication that he disliked cats, in other words EXCEPT for what the “psychologist cop” THINKS might have happened – there’s nothing to convince me it did. On the other hand, animal forensic experts state unequivocally that these so-called “cat mutilation” cases, which have & continue to occur across the country, are attributable to wild animal predation, that pathology testing proves it, AND since the S Fl cases are described EXACTLY the same way… you might wonder if the cause is also the same…
Somehow you manage to twist all of this to mean that if he confessed, if the testing proved his involvement, if he is found guilty based on the evidence (VS the media) in a trial, by a jury, that I would still defend him… huh?? How are you people reaching your conclusions – crystal ball? I’m so jealous!!
DueProcess,
Awwww, there there. If I were you I’d be jealous of me as well. Iam fantastically good looking, have a clear complexion, beautiful red hair, wear a size 4 AFTER having one child, and have an impeccable fashion sense. But it looks as if your one moment of lucidity and rational thought has just passed you by.
Just what is it about these nutcases that turns you on anyways ?
Maelstrom, “Iam fantastically good looking, have a clear complexion, beautiful red hair, wear a size 4 AFTER having one child, and have an impeccable fashion sense.”
HUH??? lol You forgot to mention “incredibly good judge of character, instinctively search out the facts, objective beyond average..”
Or, maybe you didn’t forget.
Then why didn’t you bother to look at the book yourself instead of citing from that article? You know you can read the first few pages on Amazon for free. Go check, you characterized the author. Check again.
Words instead of deeds.
It would be hard to be a part of the neighborhood, when you bail out the man who killed so many of the neighbor’s pets.
Your articles seem to intend to portray these animal deaths as “not man made.” Do you have a vested interest in Tyler’s acquittal? Is your goal in this to start from the position, that Tyler is innocent and any way to look at the “crimes” from a different angle than reality is the better way to approach this?
Stop and consider this from another perspective. What was Tyler’s interest in the facebook to capture the cat killer? Why did so many killings fall on that one mile stretch?
How many killings would seem reasonable?
Trying to make a point with Georgia View, um, I mean DueProcess, is well…pointless. It’s like debating with a wall. Take a look at her Facebook posts and you’ll see what I mean. This lady has nothing better to do with her time than surf every Tyler Weinman site proclaiming his innocence. She posts links to articles about animal predation and what not to say to the police if you are arrested. Sounds like a former defendant if you ask me. The lady is absolutely certifiable.
(why do so many of you spend so much time denouncing anyone that brings a contrary point of view? is there some “conformity code,” to post here? lol)
Oh Dueprocess….If it ain’t the pot calling the kettle black…..How YOU, the same one that has banned everyone in your Facebook moderated groups who oppose your point of view could say this almost made me choke on my coffee this morning…
Thanks for the chuckle……
Lucky for you, they don’t delete or ban your wild hallucinations….Wonder why you can’t do the same….
“…the same one that has banned everyone in your Facebook moderated groups who oppose your point of view…”
This is not factual. Taking Jason and Mazzi’s advice, I’ll try not to overreact, and respond with just the facts:
The two young people that created the FB group, “Justice for Tyler” asked me if I would administer the group. Prior to this change in admin., there were several foul-mouthed posts based on admitted hatred for someone whom they assumed “guilty.” Much time was wasted posting information in response to these type of comments, several members carefully addressed each “point” raised, in return they were insulted, further silliness occurred and chaos was rearing its head.
The first thing I did was to institute “posting rules” – which, for fairness I allowed 2 hours for feedback/suggestions to amend, etc.
The reaction the new rules received was overwhelming positive, minor adjustments were made and the rules went up.
————————————
POSTING RULES:
Whatever our personal views as to guilt, innocence, or even withholding judgment (the wisest stance), we will all be held to the following “rule” in order that we might post our thoughts without being attacked by another member, and to avoid the chaos that NOT having this rule would cause:
ALL POSTS must be respectful of the FACT that Tyler Weinman remains INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY, in both the human rights AND the legal sense of the concept.
Accordingly, ALL POSTS will refrain from abusive comments directed at Tyler and/or any member of Tyler’s family, and/or any other member who posts respectful thoughts conducive to *discussion,* whether or not you agree with his/her conclusions.
Failure to abide by this *common decency* rule will result in the commenter being warned, ONE time, by a moderator with notification sent the administrator. —Such comments will be deleted.— Continued abuse will result in loss of membership. (the “court of public opinion” will not be considered a valid defense, and foul language is an automatic ban.)
———————————-
So far, only one person has been banned. There are still almost 700 members. Must not be too arbitrary.
Wow, DueProcess scares me. Like literally. If you were in a room with her, and disagreed, eventually she might snap and really try to hurt someone. Or maybe I’m getting the wrong picture here, but it sure sounds like it.
I’m sure I could take care of myself, but there’s something frightening about someone who seems like they are stretched so thin they’ll just suddenly leap at your throat like some sort of wild animal. I didn’t read 100 percent of the blather above, but I caught enough. Seriously? This person is emotionally involved, if not related. For whatever reason. In any case:
I think the fucker will get off, and not because he is innocent. I think he’ll get off because for some reason, even if they find a fingerprint in dried cat blood, cat blood on his implements of mutilation and a big tattoo on his lily white ass that says “i <3 killing cats," the big picture is that the cat lovers care… but the law could give a shit. Even if convicted, he'll get the minimum sentence possible because again, they were "just animals", and also because you can't convict the bastard on the likelihood that he will move on to people someday… which… he will.
I'm going to go ahead and move on to say that a forensic anthropologist who has studied animal bones would be able to tell if the kill was animal related or not. (I'm not sure how many knife wounds that a vet would generally see on a live pet?) I know that courses are offered at the BS level regarding animals for cases JUST LIKE THIS. I have not seen the master's level courses yet, so I'm not sure how far the specialization goes. I guess it's just a matter of finding the right scientist and having him be free to go down there and check out a load of mutilated cat bodies.
Alanna, “…a forensic anthropologist who has studied animal bones would be able to tell if the kill was animal related or not. (I’m not sure how many knife wounds that a vet would generally see on a live pet?)…”
That’s really the only point I’m trying to make, wherever I have posted on this case, that until a pathologist examines the remains and states, for fact, that these cats were NOT killed by animal predators, then we can’t assume that a human was even involved. Maybe he was, I don’t know, but to me this is an important point. (more below under “TO ALL”)
Jason-
1. every report I have seen has claimed 33 dead cats (not 63) – if you have a link to something that says otherwise I’d appreciate if you’d share it.
a) Based on the ‘33′ that means that 40% of all deaths were attributable to animals. M-D LE early on stated that these 14 other cases were caused -most likely- by “dogs.”
b) Concurrent with these events in M-D, approx 50mi away, (& much closer than the other cases of alleged “mutilation” I’d read about thus far) Lauderhill, FL was experiencing identical “finds.” Concerns ran exactly the same in both locales, descriptions of the finds were described in ways suggesting (strongly) human involvement, etc.
c) Lauderhill began autopsies of the remains (necropsies) and quickly discovered that these cases were all attributable to animals, despite the impression of how they “looked” which had caused everyone conclude “human cruelty.” ALL 17 cases: animal predation. Testing was done, results announced, the bleeding of money spent on investigations was stemmed.
d) Miami-Dade has not, to date, announced any such testing.
(if Max has confidential information this this HAS been done, it will come out at a later date to support LE’s theory, until then; we have what we have. Mazzi mentioned that LE is under no obligation to reveal these results as yet, that “convictions have been overturned due to info that was leaked to the public” in other cases… I would suggest that inflammatory info which is found inadmissible in court would fit this bill; strong foundational forensic evidence doesn’t seem likely to.)
The affidavit specifically references 19 cases that can be linked to the defendant.
The other we’ve hashed a bit already.
Agreed, and 19 have been charged – twice: one for the death, one for improper disposal,; along w/what – 4(?) burglary charges for entering yards?
My question is – until we see test results (completed by pathologists) we have no information that these tests have been done. IF they have not been done, how were they able to deduce that 14 of the 33 were caused by animals/dogs when experts state repeatedly that it is not possible to discern “cause” w/o the trained eye of a pathologist? (even vets and animal control have been proven incorrect based on later pathology results… certainly THEY are more highly trained in this area than LE, and yet they are often wrong)
I’ll concede this point, as long as you’ll leave the item open that the tests you’re asking for could have been performed, but could have been left out of the affidavit to prevent undue contamination of the experts (Private Vets may have been used in this case, in my opinion) by the media.
Agreed. Max mentioned that he had information that the tests have been done, nothing has been reported to support this, but I can concede that they may have held back the findings until such a time as a trial takes place.
Jason-
2) State officials have selectively leaked all sorts of inflammatory info, one wonders how much of this will stand the judge’s scrutiny. The affidavit reveals the grounds relied on for probable cause in issuing the arrest warrant, but when finally unsealed, due to actions brought by Miami Herald, on 7/06: Nothing. No physical evidence. No eyewitnesses to a crime. Only a Det.’s conjecture that Tyler *fit the profile of a sociopath* based on a conversation the Det. had w/a staff psychologist of whom he’d inquired about “sociopathic personality.” (when TW was actually examined by a psychiatrist he was found to pose no danger to himself or the community)
That’s not specifically true. Two witnesses detailed him to the location of one of the attacks (within 4 hours of the discovery) This is at the bottom of page 4 and the top of page 5 of the Affidavit.
I find this to be one of the weakest areas in the affidavit, here’s why…
An anonymous caller informs police that TW is using his cell phone – outside – at 3 a.m. Another cat is found at 6 a.m. “several feet from where TW had been spotted twice earlier.”
When did the person call this in? After this cat was discovered? While TW was using the phone? Did anyone witness him so much as “touch” a cat? When did the cat die? Where was it found, i.e. in a bush, partially hidden…? How long was it there before someone noticed it and police were contacted? Was the one who discovered it the same “anonymous caller?” Too many holes.
Jason-
3) Police are apparently all over the place in these two communities, looking for who is killing cats. Tyler has gained LE interest because he has already been busted for pot (once), and a couple of unknown infractions while still a minor (if serious crimes, status as “minor” won’t protect anyone). TW ’s out wandering (possibly headed home from friends -on foot- during the period dad restricted his use of vehicle-see affidavit), he’s spotted one night w/a “black pack,” he’s approached yet again by LEO who makes mention of someone killing cats (can we hear the manner in which this was stated? could it have been suggestive that Tyler might be that someone, to which “Tyler laughed” an uncomfortable “no way!” laugh?
The nature of the interview and the nature of the affidavit is to paint Tyler as carefully as possible to present that this is a case based upon a legitimate profile. I like this particular refutation, but not because it stresses intent, but because you come at it from a position of questioning the defendant’s reaction. That’s strong.
Copied portion of a post I made on FB, after reading through the affidavit, 7/06/09:
“…A laugh can be nervous, uncomfortable, embarrassed, gleeful, maniacal, mocking, and more.
Eagerness and animation can be nothing more than a willingness to cooperate and nervous agitation: not hard to imagine…
Describing dissection class with disturbing detail? Imagine THIS scenario:
The interrogation:
Detective: I understand you took dissection classes in High School, is that right Tyler? and that you actually had to dissect a cat? Tell me what that was like… you’re right it does sound pretty gross! What was the worst part of the dissection, for you? (TW talks about the “tearing sound”…) Must have been hard, especially since you said you like cats… Tell me more? Where do they get cats for dissection? (Tyler relates what his teacher told the class about Mexico, etc.)… your obviously an intelligent guy Tyler, any idea who might be killing these cats? (TW has no idea) Okay, but with your experience dissecting cats (TW interjects that he’s only dissected one cat, in biology class), detective: sure but at least you have some knowledge in this area so maybe you can help me figure this thing out? … how do you think someone would even go about mutilating these cats? what kind of tools would they need to make the kind of cuts we’ve found? (Tyler doesn’t know, offers a meaningless guess)
Perhaps TW’s eagerness was from his mistaken belief that the detective finally believed him, that he just wanted Tyler to help him somehow, maybe the detective made him feel like a buddy and the compliments were are little nice… Tyler even relates to his “new friend” that not only has he been concerned about this (joined a FB group w/many others to try to stay aware of what was going on), but he asked his mom is they could bring a stray that had been hanging around their house, inside – so it would be safe! He explains how the cat scratched his neck when he first picked it up (normal for a stray, possibly feral cat)… the detective oohs and aahs about how nasty the scratch is (sure hope you cleaned that up Tyler, looks bad…), and TW “getting animated” tells the detective; that’s nothing! look what it did to my back! when I put it on my shoulder to bring it inside, it freaked out and ran down my back to stay outside! here, look! (TW lifts his shirt “eager” that the detective would see he was telling the truth) the detective comments on how bad the scratches are! …. mind if we take some pictures?
You get the idea.
Until a videotaped record of the interrogation surfaces, there is no way to judge Tyler’s voice OR body language and it is HIGHLY prejudicial to accept the Detectives INTERPRETATION on its own. His interpretation, at this point, is no more feasible than the one I’ve just shared.”
The primary reaction expected in a police interview is a reasonable amount of apprehension, redolent indignation with reasonable respect for authority, and a skepticism tempered by a willingness to assist with authorities. The first two aren’t really mentioned in anything we have, but the third is present, uncomfortable and framed in an uncomfortable way.
I’m live in the Raleigh area and when the Duke Lacrosse players were accused, I believed it. In college I went to a few Duke parties and I felt dirty from the moment I fled from them, to several days later. There was no doubt in my mind because the DA in the case was completely out of control. He made up evidence. He used the media like a whip. The racial overtones were cast about and Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton showed up.
But this “seems” different, and maybe I am wrong, but the goal of the prosecutor wasn’t to stress the smiling face of the rapists in that case, it was to attack the power and privilege. To wear down the men involved and to tear them up in all matters. Press briefing after press briefing, release after release. This is very different.
10 pages, with only enough to start the proceedings. The only expert witnesses brought forward are psychological, but the specific items mentioned suggest an ambush. Notice the names smudged out? Do you suppose those are the witnesses?
I had seen two different instances of the State’s manipulation of the press prior to the Duke LaCross players’ cases, two separate cases where I knew the “accused” – and knew them to be innocent, knew the facts behind the accusations and witnessed the media carry the lies of the State directly into the public discourse: unfiltered, unchallenged, and I was disgusted. The naivete I had happily enjoyed up to that point was stripped forever. Now, I question everything they say. People are guilty, people do bad things, but I would no longer trust the carefully crafted press releases put out by those with the greatest bias in my desire to know the truth. When the Duke cases arose, I was fine tuned, listening for any of the obvious “broad brush strokes” that imply but do not prove, that get us angry but later are found to be nothing more than an elaborate theory. I’m no genius, but because of this skepticism, I believed that those boys were being railroaded too. (if someone’s caught in the act, there are witnesses, direct/verifiable evidence arises to place him at the scene, etc, I won’t defend the accused, but I will still fight for his absolute right to be heard under the law)
The “smeared names?” What page in affidavit?
I missed this one and looks like two others, so let me go through this.
On Page 2 of the Affidavit, the intersection name is missing below the second mention of the May 13th date. The first May 14th date has the street smeared out, and the name of the owner of the cat.
I question why those specific pieces of information were smeared out.
That is strange. Maybe the judge was able to see it and it was smeared out after? Again we’re left to speculate. Such a strange case.
I hope I’m replying in the right place, this thread is becoming a bit convoluted.
Anyway, here’s one explanation for the smeared out areas on the affidavit:
“The affidavit, which details evidence against Weinman, will not be redacted, except for the addresses of law enforcement officers.”
from:
http://www2.tbo.com/content/2009/jun/24/242036/affidavit-cat-mutilation-case-will-be-released/news-breaking/
Oh yes! That makes sense then, just remembered when you posted this that one of the cats belonged to a LEO. Would have to search every article to find it again, but I clearly recall that from an early report)
Didn’t take long to find it:
“One of the pets belonged to a police officer, according to according to television reports.” (now we have TV as a source?)
http://www.palmbeachpost.com/accent/content/state/epaper/2009/06/11/0611_catdeaths.html
But there’s something else of interest in this story, dated June 11 (two days before TW was taken in for questioning) —
“Detectives are awaiting the results of necropsies before deciding on other cases, said Miami-Dade Police Detective Roy Rutland, a department spokesman.” The plot thickens…
Are There Other Florida Cat Killers?
June 25th, 20009
Authorities say they’re trying to determine whether a South Florida teenager charged with killing 19 cats had accomplices.
“We have not confirmed he acted alone,” prosecutor Michael Von Zamft said Wednesday at a hearing on whether to unseal the affidavit for suspect Tyler Weinman’s arrest.
Weinman, 18, was arrested June 14 and charged with killing and mutilating the cats.
Wednesday, the Miami Herald and CBS asked Miami-Dade Circuit Judge John Thornton to unseal the affidavit, saying it’s a public record.
But prosecutors said releasing the affidavit could jeopardize efforts to investigate other possible suspects, the Herald reported.
Thornton refused to release the document, but prosecutors agreed to do so at Weinman’s July 6 arraignment because the investigation is expected to be complete by then, the Herald reported.
Authorities have begun a separate investigation into threats against Weinman, Von Zamft said at Wednesday’s hearing.
In Lauderhill, Fla., authorities have determined 17 cats found dead likely were not killed by humans, the South Florida Sun-Sentinel reported. That conclusion is based on necropsies done on the cats, the newspaper said. (c) UPI http://www.postchronicle.com/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi?archive=145&num=239885
So now I’m wondering, are they relying on TV as a source (as indicated above), and perhaps getting the necropsy info mixed up w/Lauderhill? Still looking but a search of “Miami-Dade necropsies” yields only stories about Lauderhill…
Article posted above (Are There Other Florida Cat Killers?
June 25th, 20009)
M-D implied to the judge re: Miami Herald’s attempt to have affidavit unsealed that doing so would harm their case because they were investigating possible accomplices, we were lead to believe that the affidavit contained other names, yet when it was finally unsealed: no one else is mentioned? Buying time to strengthen a weak case?
One more article from June 12th, referencing the LEO who’s cat was found dead:
Excerpt: “Psychiatrist Ewald Horwath says the culprit is most likely a disturbed young man, alienated from society.
“This is someone who’s willing to be violent,” said Horwath, head of psychiatry at the University of Miami Miller School of Medicine. “It involves a degree of cruelty and sadism that is quite disturbing.”
Noting that one of the owners of a slain cat was a police officer who had a marked patrol car in the driveway, Horwath said the killer is brazen and showing signs of escalation.
(further down this reference to necropsy) —
A day earlier, four dead cats were discovered in the same vicinity. Of those, police ruled out two cases and are waiting on necropsies to confirm whether the other two were the work of the same serial murderers.http://www.palmbeachpost.com/state/content/state/epaper/2009/06/12/0612catkillings.html
—————
A young man “alienated from society?” “…someone willing to be violent?” Neither of these descriptions would fit anything printed or said about who TW was PRIOR to these charges.
Jason-
4) What about the back pack? These guys didn’t look inside? I find that hard to believe, TW has cooperated with everything they’ve done so far, he’s going to deny access? No, more likely that LE did look inside, found nothing of import and yet let stand the implication in the affidavit by use of the term “black back pack,” leaving out any mention of contents.
They did find a gram of marijuana in his car and the cutting implement outside the driver’s side window after a traffic stop. When they mention these items, I agree, the question is begged, what was in or on the backpack.
I have so many questions – hope I’m not driving you crazy, but I wonder about so many things reported in this case, like –
How small IS a “gram” of pot? What type of “cutting instrument?” The implication is that when pulled over TW tossed it out the window (driver’s side, on ground by door) but the affidavit doesn’t state that, it just implies it… why? What qualifies as a “cutting instrument?” A shard of broken beer bottle on the road?, or something more ominous…
From Google:
An Ounce is roughly 28.38 grams
A Quarter Bag is roughly seven grams
A Dime bag is a gram
A Dime bag can make roughly 2 normal joints
Note: This is not something I’m familiar with. I’ve never been able to smoke even tobacco.
From a case I saw:
Rings, extra bags, a scale and/or more than a 1/4 ounce can lead to possession with intent to sell (whether Misdemeanor 2 or Felony Class 3)
Thanks for the info, Jason. Sounds like it could have been even 1 ‘joint’ or part of one, which was discovered… not a lot in any case.
I’m curious about this as well. I’ve had police dump the contents of my purse in the floorboard during a routine traffic stop, so I find it hard to believe they didn’t at least take a peek in that backpack.
Exactly Red.
We know from our own experiences what is reasonable and what is not. I know several cops who are decent men, but they are the “old guard,” prefer to be called “policemen” over “cop” – you know? These guys have all noted a marked change in the mentality of the younger breed; they call them “cowboys,” they observe a more militaristic stance, a stronger “us against them” mentality (and why do most of them shave their heads now?).
Things have changed and that’s an observable fact, and it effects judgments, it effects objectivity, it effects interpretation. That’s why I think it’s so important to carefully analyze every “press report” put out by the state: which is proven fact?, which is conjecture, hypothesis? (went longer than I intended – more on this later)
Jason-
5) A tracking device is placed on (both?) vehicles: who’s vehicles are they? Some reports have suggested that they belonged to his mom and dad. Vehicle(s) is tracked to within 1/2 mi. of where a dead cat is discovered. When was the cat killed? Was it hit by a car and dragged by a predator onto the yard of the nearby owner? TW lives in the vicinity, he travels between work, parents homes, friends homes, stores, etc. What is the likelihood that he would pass by locations where dead cats are later discovered? He, and everyone else in these adjacent communities? Setting aside the GPS, what of the visual surveillance? Reports have stated that they had him several times under surveillance but were unable to observe him “doing anything wrong.”
The Affidavit lists all of the cats that he’s currently being cited for. Most were found inside of fenced in lots. The likelihood they were “dragged” there by a vehicle is a little far fetched, don’t you think?
I think predator or someone else is a better argument here than the car reference.
On Page 2, look at the cat listed for May 14th, 9211 Ridgeland Drive. This is the cat specifically connected to Tyler. Notice “fenced in yard”
A woman posting on Facebook, shared about her personal painful experience with pit bulls she owned. I asked her about this “fenced yard” issue. She replied that her dogs eventually had to be put down because of their behavior in the neighborhood, specifically: her dogs would jump the fence (her yard) to enter other fenced yards and drag back their “trophies.” (usually cats that owners believed “safe” in their own yards). At first she thought the cats had wandered into her yard and been attacked, but then neighbors spotted them “climbing/jumping fences, and she eventually witnessed it for herself.
The description of what the remains looked like is also just as in these other “mutilation” cases – the “cuts” appear as if done with “surgical precision.” She stated that she wold not have believed it had she not witnessed with her own eyes.
I’ve had pets killed by Coyotes before. You don’t find much of them. Coyotes are food motivated, efficient and actually bury the evidence of their crimes, so I doubt Coyotes (I bring it up, because if I was looking for a culprit, I’d suspect one of the major wild animals of the area).
Pitbulls are different, but they’re still prey/food drive motivated here if they’re the culprits. Why weren’t the bodies removed by the dogs? My old dog Sadie would find a cow’s knee in the pasture and would dance with it for hours–pertinent because after the cat was dead, why wasn’t there anything else “done to it.” Why was there no sign of masking after the attack? Dogs roll over their dead prey after they abandon a carcass to mask their scent. It’s an instinctual habit that many, many dog owners can attest to. The masking would have disturbed the remains significantly.
I don’t know, like I said, I think predator or another human offender is the best argument for someone other than Tyler, but I don’t think it’s perfect.
This brings us full circle to the quotes I originally posted by Dr. Lockwood. The man is highly credible because of his work (pursuing cases of animal abuse/human cruelty)… when he states that the great majority of these “cat mutilation” cases – all over the country – are the work of wild/stray animals, it certainly makes you think. Again the pertinent quotes:
“..wounds from wild predators often appear to be human-caused, even to trained eyes.
“The two phrases that always turn up are ‘cut with surgical precision’ and ‘drained of blood,’ ” Lockwood says. “These are very common with predator kills. The cuts look clean, and it bleeds out very quickly.
“People expect to find, if an animal has been killed by a predator, that it’s ripped apart, lying in a pool of blood. That’s not what you find. As wounds are cleaned by insects, natural bodily processes take over and the wounds tend to take on a slick, smooth appearance, looking as if they were done with a knife. People overlook the fact that the canine teeth of predators are, in essence, knives, and they leave a very clean cut.”
Personally, I have to cede to Dr. Lockwood in this area. I turned to him because of his outstanding credentials.
I do honestly get that, but what I wanted to stress was that even though “sometimes” they aren’t. Sometimes they are. We found small patches of fur of one of our cats. With the goat we found killed by dogs, it was ripped to pieces. Coyotes will eat only the fat of sheep around the kidneys if there are plenty of sheep for them to kill. Rats will slaughter turkeys and actually drag their bodies together for a giant rotting nest in the turkey houses that get a large resident. My dogs would kill wildlife and would mask. It meant you’d find this flat, exsanguinated thing in the yard, that was difficult to identify.
You’ve done a good thing. You’ve presented that you think pitbulls did this, but I’m arguing that pitbulls might have done things differently(I had mutts, not pitbulls, so I am not an expert on this).
Is there something else that could have done this? Something in the area and more likely to handle things this way? I saw one post on this on another website that suggested of all things, Florida Panthers. If this is a wild animal or domestic animal attack, what fits this profile?
Personally, I have to cede to Dr. Lockwood in this area. I turned to him because of his outstanding credentials.
I still think you’re miss-characterizing hisattitudes in this case. He has a facebook if you want to cyber-stalk him(just joking), and ask him if he’s involved in the case. I think though, that you miss that his text has been absorbed as a major source for crimes of this nature, and that early on, his book would have shown up in the hands of the investigators.
Other possible predators?
Bobcats, “foreclosure dogs,” (that’s a heartbreaking situation in Florida, hard hit by the real estate market falling families just abandon their pet in a park and hope for the best), cars…and then some animal drags it into yard, raccoons, gators, vultures, owls, panthers. I really don’t know, just streaming a list of FL wildlife/strays.
Are you aware that these cats were all old? 10,13 yrs old… The literature on outdoor VS indoor life expectancy is grim, with outdoor cats living something like half as long as those kept indoors. Someone else made an excellent point related to “age” –
if a person was killing these cats, what are the odds that they would all be “old?” wouldn’t the ages vary some? On the other hand older cats are more likely to fall victim to car accidents and animal predators.
Justin-
6) LE has developed a theory about TW and now seeks to bring him in for questioning. According to the affidavit “several” of M-D’s finest stop TW for a traffic violation (what type of violation? location? not mentioned in affidavit, strange…): a sharp instrument is found “outside the driver’s door” on the ground. What is it? A knife!? A razor!? A piece of broken beer bottle? No mention in affidavit, just a sinister implication. Inside the vehicle “one gram” of pot is found. Voila! Grounds to take down for questioning. Convenient, or am I being too cynical? Apparently he is released after being questioned this time…. BUT they have their eyes on him… Pressure is building in the community, cops are working OT, staking out parks, neighborhoods, whatever. They want to catch “the guy.”
Failure to stop at a traffic control device. Second paragraph, page 5.
I too read every word of the affidavit and did note the “traffic control device” description. What type? Traffic lights? Stop sign? When we are ticketed for a traffic violation, the type of device, and the location (intersection) are routinely noted. Why not here, with “several” officers present? Why “several officers?”
My guess, and I’m going to mark this clearly as an opinion, is that the police were behind him and Tyler was distracted by their proximity.
To the “specifics” on the device, the ticket is very specific, but an affidavit is purposefully vague to prevent flaws in the affidavit from being used to hurt the investigation. A guess out of the dark, I’d say I’m 9 out of 10 sure the “traffic device” was a stop light, but it could have been a blinking light on a school bus, a railroad crossing light, a signal baton in the hands of an officer in front of the car, or something else I’m not familiar with in Florida. What I’m sure of though, is that the officer dotted their i’s on this one, even if there are no t’s. An officer of the law is considered an expert on traffic enforcement devices. To challenge that aspect of the case would be very, very hard.
Loved your wording; “…the officer dotted their i’s on this one, even if there are no t’s…” :)
Fair enough, the “traffic violation” is now set aside.
Jason-
7) 6/13/09 two events occur:
a.m. two stray pit bulls, which a LEO had alerted Animal Control to after spotting, are captured by animal control, one “very aggressive,” both having deep scratch wounds on their faces, animal control states that they hope the communities which have suffered these scary incidents might begin to relax *now that these 2 dogs have been taken off the street.*
No more killings…? (cont.)
Jason- (7 cont.)
p.m. Approached at a party, approx midnight hour, TW is again asked to submit himself for questioning. He apparently goes, voluntarily, without representation (he is questioned approx 8 hours). There is no “confession.” The affidavit contains one side of an exchange during interrogation which -without seeing/hearing for context- is meaningless. i.e.: tearing sound: had the Det. asked him to explain more about the dissection the biology class had done?, had TW insisted it was gross and when pressed (in custody) to explain in greater detail did he refer to a “tearing sound” that made him feel sick? We don’t know but we do know how the Detective has framed it. That’s all we can know until facial expression, tone of voice, form of the questions, etc. are seen./heard. Speculation of his “toying with detectives,” any conclusions of a his being a “sociopath” are groundless at this point as they must be based purely on the one-sided vantage point afforded by the affidavit; the detectives “interpretation.” (I have similar scenarios for each portion of the Detectives speculative assertions, including “scratches” which TW offered to show as proof that he was telling the truth about the stray he tried to bring in at his mom’s to “keep it from getting hurt” while all these cats were being killed… including the joining of the FB group, “Catch the Cat Killer” which many from both communities had joined to “catch the killer” and stay informed…) END
(just realized I should have posted all of this as “replies” to my first post – sorry, hope this isn’t too big a deal)
Jason – I’ve got to get out of here!
Thanks for the “exchange,” anything that makes us “think” is a good thing, and you really made me think! ;)
We don’t have to agree, and I don’t, I want to stress this, I’m about 77% sure Tyler did it right now and I will continue to research myself, but if your intention is to “influence” people, the best way is to present an argument the way you’d want one presented to you. I don’t know if Max and Mazzi would agree, but if you can keep the vitriol down, a reasoned response of questioned guilt, might be welcome here in very specific cases. I’m not saying post anything close to like this in the child murder and rape cases, but if you actually have something (and I still think what you have right now is a straw that while reasoned, is stretching it), present it, but don’t forget to lay out the baggage and prepare to respond about 30 times to the flaws in the original argument. Mazzi admitted on a thread she’d hate to argue against me. I have to give her and Max, and even claude in this case props. I don’t want to be on the wrong side of any argument, but even being on the right side, there are people you’d prefer not to face. There’s a broad bell curve of responses you can get here, and the 733t are 733t. I think your argument grew on me though. A few points here and there, but I think you might have something if you branch out and specifically address what “other” thing could have been involved.
If a smoking gun shows up, please do us all a favour and drop an apology for the severity of the comments. If Tyler is acquitted, Max can probably be bet on to present the who, what, where and why of it.
I want to stress, I think Max and Mazzi are high on my list of “scary opponents.”
Awwwwwww… you say the sweetest things Jason =)
DueProcess – You said that I came at you with both barrels with my first reply to you. I didn’t think so and certainly didn’t intend to, but I also know my habit of being direct with my comments and I can see how someone could misconstrue them as an attack. I suggest we start over again from the beginning – I’ve been watch you recent exchanges with Jason, and you seem reasonable. You wouldn’t be the first person I’ve agreed to disagree with.
Thanks, Max.
this guy is truely sick, i would feel sorry for him if he touched any of my cats
The two young people that created the FB group, “Justice for Tyler” asked me if I would administer the group. Prior to this change in admin., there were several foul-mouthed posts based on admitted hatred for someone whom they assumed “guilty.” Much time was wasted posting information in response to these type of comments, several members carefully addressed each “point” raised, in return they were insulted, further silliness occurred and chaos was rearing its head.
The first thing I did was to institute “posting rules” – which, for fairness I allowed 2 hours for feedback/suggestions to amend, etc.
The reaction the new rules received was overwhelming positive, minor adjustments were made and the rules went up.
————————————
POSTING RULES:
Whatever our personal views as to guilt, innocence, or even withholding judgment (the wisest stance), we will all be held to the following “rule” in order that we might post our thoughts without being attacked by another member, and to avoid the chaos that NOT having this rule would cause:
ALL POSTS must be respectful of the FACT that Tyler Weinman remains INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY, in both the human rights AND the legal sense of the concept.
Accordingly, ALL POSTS will refrain from abusive comments directed at Tyler and/or any member of Tyler’s family, and/or any other member who posts respectful thoughts conducive to *discussion,* whether or not you agree with his/her conclusions.
Failure to abide by this *common decency* rule will result in the commenter being warned, ONE time, by a moderator with notification sent the administrator. —Such comments will be deleted.— Continued abuse will result in loss of membership. (the “court of public opinion” will not be considered a valid defense, and foul language is an automatic ban.)
———————————-
So far, only one person has been banned. There are still almost 700 members. Must not be too arbitrary.
***** You allowed 2 hrs?? You think that is fair? Why not allow 24-48 hrs? Enough time for those with a life to check on the changes being made. Which by the way, would love to see when and where you made those changes. I don’t remember seeing a thing or being warned and honestly, unless I’m calling someone a fucking asshole, like some of Tyler’s great little friends do, I should never be banned, regardless of my opinion.
Still, if you want to try and snowball the people on this board into believing you’re this defender of truth and freedom of expression then go ahead. Give it a whirl. Personally I’ve read their posts and highly doubt they’ll give up the 2 cents they have to buy your BS.
**** Of course you had positive response. Look at the site. Everyone with an opposing view that actually made a statement has been banned. The entire group has become a public relations page for Tyler…..but I guess that must have been the goal
****** How is what I stated not factual??? Your rules are clear. If you don’t think Tyler is innocent then you can’t post here until after the trial is over and he is found guilty. …….Tell me how you can implement that rule then turn around and say you’re being fair and allowing an open discussion?
Wait a second!
Just so it is clear, Corymia is NOT talking about PYSIH when she says that all posters with opposing views have been banned. I started to freak out with righteous indignation till I realized that she was talking about a different board, LOL.
Despite my pushy attempts to get a certain drama-queen troll banned (not one involved with this thread), Max keeps refusing. Even after I offered to send him a bag of greasy tacos! For the record, the only posters I have seen banned are a couple of really disgusting perverts and a frootloop who sounded like he was about to go postal in real life.
….Just saying…. Please continue…
“a frootloop who sounded like he was about to go postal in real life.”
I find it best when i run into one of those to be a cheery as possible and just when they are about to bust, say “c’mon now, turn that frown upside down, no one likes a sad sack” and then run like hell.
Just read your, “I find it best when i run into one of those to be a cheery as possible and just when they are about to bust, say “c’mon now, turn that frown upside down, no one likes a sad sack” and then run like hell,” and… you obviously have a great sense of humor. I’d like to offer an apology for being combative with you.
LMAO…. oooo greasy tacos? maybe you should add an apple empanada YUM! and you are correct….I was talking about the facebook group called Justice for Tyler. Unlike that page, PYSIH is fantastic in allowing any and all points of view. Which can be dangerous because I do have to tell you that after reading all the comments in this thread I swear I had a mental orgasm and I wanted to marry Max, Jason, Maelstrom (til I read ‘he’ was a ’she’- lol) etc. ; )
Lol..common error Corymia…I often get confused for being a dude. Though I’m quite flattered. :)
lol…well it was nice while it lasted….sort of like being with a tranny in the dark…..Sorry, I have a weird sense of humor…very sarcastic and borderline sick = ]
“…unless I’m calling someone a fucking asshole, like some of Tyler’s great little friends do, I should never be banned, regardless of my opinion.”
A very small number of TW’s friends did posts such comments, and if you’ll check you’ll see that way back then I was suggesting they should tone down the rhetoric, that if they purported to support Tyler, trash talking wasn’t the way to go about it. They listened and no, to my knowledge, has talked like that since.
On the other hand, several have come to post what could only be termed “rage speech,” highly inflammatory, demeaning of other members, posting just to vent some anger, accusing the admin of unfairness etc… w/o justification (not an example offered to support the charge.) Others attempted to reason with these few and were ridiculed and further berated for trying. All this was before I took over admin. Now?
To paraphrase your words: …unless you’re calling someone a f$#…g asshole (or similarly preventing discussion/debate)… you would never be banned, regardless of my opinion. Name calling, violent suggestions for punishment of the accused, etc. are not tolerated. The board tries to support the “presumption of innocence,” as stated in the Basic Info.
I hope you’ll come and post your own arguments.
::claude says:
July 13, 2009 at 9:12 pm
And now to prove how full of it you really are…
“July 6th, 2009
Miami-Dade Officials:
-dismiss the case/drop the charges (having now seen the affidavit which you sought to conceal and finding that you did not even have “probable cause” for the arrest; it’s the right thing to do)::
Going one step further, here’s a post from that very same group, on the message board, in a thread titled “AFFIDAVIT:Analysis” –
“Georgia View wrote on July 6, 2009 at 1:11pm
Yes, the bar for probable cause was met.
No, I don’t think they fabricated anything.”
So, even though she admits in her message board post that “the bar for probable cause was met”, she still demands that Officials drop the charges because, in her own words, they “did not even have “probable cause” for the arrest”. So which is it? Was there probable cause or not?
Fair comment. Not being a lawyer, I initially believed that probable cause might have met, and I have never believed that officials “fabricated” anything, ‘misinterpreted’ things perhaps, but not fabricated.
Following that post I learned that, no, in fact the threshold had not been met; no eyewitnesses, no physical evidence, only theory.
That’s when I posted what you have quoted.
Okay…. here’s the issue. Probable cause falls under that whole: “fair and prudent” issue.
If I stopped you on the street and you knew nothing about the case, could the following conversation have occurred.
Officer: Hello there, I’m a police officer, can I talk to you a moment?
you: Sure
Officer: There’s this kid whose been busted for drugs three times who we think killed these cats (shows pics of cats). We think these 19 cats were killed and left for their owners to find at these locations (shows a map of only the red dots where the 19 were found and a green line runs through the center). See this green line? This is the route that the pot smoker walks. See this one red dot here? An officer on May 19th caught this young man outside of the house of the owner of this cat. It was 2 in the morning. Why do you think any young man would be out at 2:00 in the morning, just walking around?
you: I…
Officer: anyway, the next morning this cat (shows picture) was dead, as was this cat (shows picture), here (show the red dot on the map corresponding to the other cat.) On top of that, we put a tracker on him and he was within 1/2 a mile of these 4 other cat killings and said that tearing cat skin makes a weird sound.
you: What? He said that?
Officer: yes, he was really excited about dissecting cats when we picked him up.
you: you’re kidding!
Officer: so, yeah, do you think he did it?
That’s all that’s needed for probable cause. That and of course a judge’s sign off for search warrants, when it comes to search warrants, but probable cause isn’t hard to handle.
“Prominent criminal defense attorney Mark Seiden, who has no interest in the cat case… says he’s surprised a judge signed an arrest warrant…”
News4 video report, quoting Seiden, “there’s no probable cause here to arrest him… there’s no physical evidence whatsoever that ties him to the scene, there are no eyewitnesses that tie him to any of these crimes, and the rest of this (the affidavit) is just conjecture and conjecture has no place in an arrest warrant.”
See video inset @ http://cbs4.com/local/tyler.weinman.cat.2.1073153.html
What are the “issuing criteria” for arrest warrant VS search warrant? Is there a difference?
There is a different for criteria, but the “legal test” is the same.
It’s the reasonable person test. Additionally, it’s much easier to arrest someone who has plead guilty to a minor drug possession charge than it is to arrest someone with zero record. The affidavit’s only “strong” point is the part you mentioned and I’ll admit is kind of weak, but it does tie him to the scene of the crime from 2:00Am to 6:00 AM when the body of the cat was found.
The only way it could actually tie him to the scene of a crime (TW’s presence within hours of the next discovery) would be if ‘time of death’ could be ascertained. As far as I know, they don’t have that information… just the times/places where the cats were found.
Not time of death, but time of discovery is still valid here. There’s a framework of time that limits the window of opportunity for someone else to have done it. The goal would be to eventually link 3 or more cases to Tyler’s short 2.5 minute stops for example.
Circumstantial, but circumstantial is actually admissible in many cases, despite Perry Mason style objections.
I see your point, but then I wonder…
When did each cat “go missing?” How long after was it “discovered?” So, when did it actually get killed? How large a window was there? and How many more are yet to be found, dragged further away by ‘possible’ predators?
::DueProcess says:
July 14, 2009 at 9:51 am
Are you aware that these cats were all old? 10,13 yrs old… The literature on outdoor VS indoor life expectancy is grim, with outdoor cats living something like half as long as those kept indoors. Someone else made an excellent point related to “age” –
if a person was killing these cats, what are the odds that they would all be “old?” wouldn’t the ages vary some? On the other hand older cats are more likely to fall victim to car accidents and animal predators.::
By reasoning that older cats are slow and are more likely to be caught by predators, wouldn’t it be safe to say that they could also be more easily captured by a human?
Another fair point. So you won’t hear me bring up the “age” factor again.
No, DP. I think you have a good point there, and one I am sure the defense will be using.
There are two things that crossed my mind, one pro and one con.
- Humans are trickier than most animals and could lure a cat by offering food or maybe catnip.
-BUT-
- How easy would it be for a human to even FIND so many cats? Animals have a distinct advantage over us there. Seriously, I have walked through plenty of neighborhoods and I have rarely ever seen a cat just sitting there in someone’s yard. Normally they like to hide under bushes or whatever. Most of the cats I have seen have been in motion – dashing from one spot to another.
So, how likely is it that this guy would be so good at locating 19 different cats in a relatively short period of time, in people’s yards at night?
I’m not saying that he couldn’t, but that seems a bit weird to me.
For the record, my husband disagrees with me about finding the cats, but he thinks it would be harder to lure them so that they could be grabbed. He pointed out that “cats are notoriously paranoid” lol.
And, my smart husband just mentioned another point that I hadn’t thought of. He has issues with the cat scratches. He says that anyone who was going to kill a cat could easily subdue it without suffering a single scratch. Scratches would be more likely to come when the cat is scared, but the human is trying to not hurt the cat.
In other words, what Tyler said to explain his scratches.
I get where you’re headed, but it started out with one cat. This first cat only had to be captured. It may have walked right up to Tyler. When he started torturing the cat, there was probably a struggle.
Cat “n” probably had to be either poisoned or sedated. Sedation does not always work the same way on cats. I’ve had a cat jerk bolt upright after being out for only a few moments. Boy was it a surprise on the way to the airport! What were his early poisons and sedatives? Did he try to use Sominex? In cat biochemistry it’s about equivalent to Paxil. The cat would have been mellow, but start cutting into it and you’re in for the clawing of your life.
It lends more credence to the need to get pathology reports, so maybe the solution here is to change the chants from free Tyler, to share the beef.
I am going to be lazy and ask how long a period of time there was between the first murder and the last? And, have the killings stopped?
Thanks for not busting my chops for not looking it up – I am making dinner, lol.
I’m from the area and can tell you that in the beginning it was concluded that the cats were being tortured and skinned alive. When the case began to get an increase in media attention and the reward was increased, people were asked to look for signs of scratching. They said the predator had to have scratches from the struggle. Soon after they determined the cats were no longer being captured the same way. Instead they were being shot with something in order to strike them down and capture them.
As for the cats being semi feral or feral. The majority of these cats were older family pets. They were tame and used to human interaction. Add some catnip to the scene and you’ve got yourself a cat killer’s dream scene. Unfortunately the fantasy ended when he realized his scratches would give him away so he moved on to his wooden spear and his electronic device (which I believe is a taser gun) in order to subdue the poor creatures.
Mazzi, according to the affidavit, eight cats were reported missing between April 1st and April 28th. The first cat was discovered on April 28th, and the last on June 11th. In an earlier post, Jason said, “A better argument would be that because Tyler’s incarceration did not stop the attacks (there were two while he was in custody), there might be some suspicion that they have the wrong man, but the police argue Tyler has an accomplice or accomplices, as outlined in the addendum of the affidavit.”
I didn’t see anything mentioning an accomplice in the original affidavit, is there another version containing this addendum that I’m missing?
Corymia, “…when he realized his scratches would give him away so he moved on to his wooden spear and his electronic device (which I believe is a taser gun) in order to subdue…”
Did I miss something? You’ve stated this w/such certainty but I find nothing about a ‘wooden spear’ or ‘electronic device’ in the affidavit?
DP, the wooden spear gun and the electronic equipment were not mentioned in the affidavit, but were included in the list of items confiscated from Weinman’s father’s home.
Red – Yes, in the items listed in search warrants, had overlooked that. Thanks. (posted to Corymia on this, below)
Just a quick fact…
I used to do cat rescue for my local shelter…and cats are nearly IMPOSSIBLE to catch with your bare hands. You need traps for the majority of them, and even if you do get within 4 feet of them they will haul ass.
Just something I thought I’d add….
Also, cats ARE notoriously paranoid….if they don’t trust you, you will not be able to grab them. No way no day.
There were a couple of other thoughts I had but didn’t have time to post earlier, lol.
::if a person was killing these cats, what are the odds that they would all be “old?” wouldn’t the ages vary some?::
Well, as Corymia said, these were mostly family pets, used to humans. It could be argued that someone who spent a fair amount of time in the area would be somewhat familiar with the cats and be able to determine which ones would make good targets.
::On the other hand older cats are more likely to fall victim to car accidents and animal predators::
This may not necessarily be true, especially of healthy, well-cared for family pets. For example, I have a cat that would most definitely be considered elderly (18), and I’ve routinely seen her outrun the younger cats. So I would think that what it really boils down to is the health and condition of the cat, not necessarily the age. Of course, this is just an observation based on my personal experiences.
Oops, replied in the wrong place! Sorry!
Due Process is a troll from Topix!
He is guilty. Get over it!
Ummmm… DP came in with a mighty big chip on her shoulder, but I think she has shown that she is more than willing to discuss her points in a reasonable fashion. Assuming that she continues to debate civilly I would take exception to the troll comment.
According to her, her initial attitude was because of how she had been treated on other sites. All I know is that she is welcome here as long as she plays by the rules.
On the other hand, I am not too fond of people who stalk people around the internet condemning them on other sites. If she is a troll, we will deal with her. If she’s not, then you make yourself look really bad.
Merci, Mazzi. Appreciate the second chance.
The chip was VERY large, surprised any of you listened long enough to sort between the battle scarred and the reasonable. I’ve since read most of what everyone has posted here, and relaxed a lot more (lol) I’m impressed with the level of intelligence here, the respect for differing points of view; I did not expect that. I “assumed” and you know what they say about that ;)
I think due process calls herself georgia view on another forum. Stick it to this hard headed ignorant bitch. She gives me a fucking headache, I gave up on her. Her newest gem of an excuse is it was all ‘older cats’ that were hit by cars THEN
I think due process calls herself georgia view on another forum. Stick it to this hard headed ignorant bitch. She gives me a fucking headache, I gave up on her. Her newest gem of an excuse is it was all ‘older cats’ that were hit by cars THEN wild dogs attacked & mutilated their injured bodies. Assenine & desperate on so many levels, let’s see all the old cats in Palmetto & cutler Bay crossed the streets at the same time got attacked by dogs at the same time & the dogs left them in from their homes in unison, right?
I would like to beat the brains out of Tyler with his skateboard & take all his ‘tools’ out his bsckpack & stab him with his own icepick & then skin his face off with his knife as he did the 34+ felines.
Forgot to mention all the old cats must have quit crossong the street & getting injured so the dogs stopped mutilating their injured bodies at the exact time shit face Tyler was arrested, right DP, GV whoever the fuck you really are, Tyler’s granny perhaps, who cares you’re as deranged & worthless as he is.
Where’s my comment that I spent 10 minutes to write expressing my hatred for ‘due process’ aka georgia vue ass hole?
Give Due Process hell max the cat, she wears me out.
I can say I hate georgia view here & won’t get banned awesome. This bitch moderates FB groups ’supporting Tyler’ & anyone dare say he might be guilty is wiped off the group, banned & they don’t curdse or say anywhere near the things said here. What a stupid ass bitch, I don’t know what her motives are but I suspect she hates animals & could care less whether he commited these vile acts or not. she will defend him come hell or high water which makes me wonder if she’s daddy’s hired accomplice. If so she’s nopt earning her money it’s backfiring & she’s failing miserably at her job.
Anonymous, “I can say I hate georgia view here & won’t get banned awesome. This bitch moderates FB groups ’supporting Tyler’ & anyone dare say he might be guilty is wiped off the group, banned & they don’t curdse or say anywhere near the things said here. What a stupid ass bitch, I don’t know what her motives are but I suspect she hates animals & could care less whether he commited these vile acts or not. she will defend him come hell or high water which makes me wonder if she’s daddy’s hired accomplice. If so she’s nopt earning her money it’s backfiring & she’s failing miserably at her job.”
This is the type of breathless insanity that is moderated at the FB group I administer. This would earn an auto ban for language; w/o the language it would have earned a warning for attacking a member you disagree with. Unreasonable?
There’s a lot more I’d like to say, but “this bitch” is gonna keep her mouth shut. ;)
(should have be clearer: referencing ALL of anonymous’ posts directed at myself)
For the record, and for what it’s worth… I love animals. I’ve taken in stray cats, dogs, people… stayed safe by doing my best to avoid the rabid ones.
I don’t think anyone ever thought you were some evil cat hater, DueProcess…that thought never crossed my mind.
I just think you’re wrong about Tyler…however, thats my opinion only. No one has to share it. Some do of course, but that is moot.
Maelstrom, “…thats my opinion only. No one has to share it. Some do of course, but that is moot.”
That’s the biggest difference between this site and so many [too many!] others: disagreement is okay but people can still be respectful of someone’s right to their own opinion, hear their arguments, ask questions, etc. Thanks.
Thank you for saying that about this site DP. We’re pretty hard on people who unreasonably defend their position (as you had to experience, unfortunately), but when some one shows up with a contrary opinion and backs them with real facts, we try to treat them with the same kind of respect we would want to be treated with. It’s gratifying to hear that you feel the way you do, especially in light of some of the accusation our resident troll/thorn recently made about us.
I’m just glad I had the chance to discover it, Max.
It’s so refreshing especially after some of the awful experiences I’ve had posting anything on this case, elsewhere. Most don’t want to take the time, spend the effort to hear anyone else (you pose a question and they shout back something deeply intelligent like, “troll!” lol). How are we to ever get past the “media noise,” to dig dipper and discover anything resembling the truth, without discussion, without asking questions?
Anyhow, I’ll say it again: PYSIH is NOT what I assumed it was – the majority here are sharp, thinking, and reasonable – and you listen long enough to find out where someone is REALLY coming from ;) (folks who can’t do that, can’t be expected to be objective about any “news” story)
*deeper
DueProcess, I’m not excusing anything here, but you need to understand how angry you’ve made some people. Some of us are very passionate about our pets and animal rights, especially considering how laughable some of the animal cruelty laws really are, and I can see how your position could be mistaken for defending Tyler at all costs. Let me take out my crayon and draw you a picture: I think Tyler is guilty, but not because the media told me to think so. You think Tyler may not be guilty, and that’s fine. That’s your opinion. Neither of us knows ALL the facts, so neither of us can say with 100 percent certainty that he is or isn’t guilty, so I can agree to disagree with you. But – and here’s my point – if you present your arguments to me in a smug, condescending manner and try to shove them down my throat then guess what? I’ll either ignore you or you’ll piss me off. So, I think it’s not so much what you say, as the manner in which you say it. As my momma used to say, you can catch more flies with honey than vinegar.
I agree with your sentiment, and think she’s gotten a healthy dose of this over the last few days, I do honestly think she has been “somewhat” rehabilitated and has been reasonable in many of her concessions.
That said… This quote is false. Set out a teaspoon of honey and a teaspoon of vinegar and you’ll catch a much greater volume of flies, in the vinegar. I read it on xkcd and had to try it… and was thoroughly discouraged.
Wow, I had no idea!
It makes sense though…I know apple cider vinegar is great for trapping gnats.
More that “somewhat” rehabbed… have just finished bathing in both vinegar AND honey just to make sure!
Read my later posts Red, (I think you’ll notice a change in tone), and once more, I apologize for coming in “ready for battle;” when you walk among the undead too long, everyone starts to look like a zombie lol You are NOT zombies, and I am sorry for ever thinking you were. Mea culpa, mea culpa.
DueProcess says:
July 15, 2009 at 10:51 am
Corymia, “…when he realized his scratches would give him away so he moved on to his wooden spear and his electronic device (which I believe is a taser gun) in order to subdue…”
Did I miss something? You’ve stated this w/such certainty but I find nothing about a ‘wooden spear’ or ‘electronic device’ in the affidavit?
****This was part of the evidence file. Except for the scratches. That’s a theory that was discussed based on the evidence towards the end of his killing spree. All I will say is I live in Miami and I don’t just go by the media. But if you want it in black and white you can go here and read some of what they found….
http://www.bradenton.com/331/story/1565794.html
Thanks for the link Corymia, had just seen Red Scharron’s explanation re: the search warrants, had missed that.
As to the search warrants, isn’t it true that they took a lot of items that they *thought* might be related to a crime, but that were in fact irrelevant? (dad’s checkbook, etc.) Looking at the items listed, it’s easy to see where they were going with it but… catnip? Both homes have cats, is this item unusual then? I understand that the defense had asked the judge (last week?) that many of these items be returned to his mom and dad, that they are not “fruit of a crime,” mostly belonging to the parents?
NP DP, and yes, there were items that some may consider irrelevant, and they very well could be, but I think one of the reasons they may have been taken was to see if there’s a pattern of some sort…let’s take the checkbook for example….. say you own a paint store and your son was just arrested for defacing buildings using red paint. Interestingly enough, your replenishment for red paint needs to be increased the same time as the crimes occurred. Yes, it may be a coincidence but add that little coincidence to 20 others and you have probable cause.
I also believe they (PD) can’t really trust the parents. Therefore they took as much as they could to avoid any tampering on the parents part.
Guess we’ll have to wait and see which, if any, items yield what they’re looking for.
Hey Corymia, when I first read about the spear gun, I wasn’t sure what it was so I looked it up. When I saw exactly what it was, the first thing that popped into my head were the “puncture wounds” mentioned in the affidavit on page 9. Would being shot with a spear gun cause those types of wounds?
Red, I know there was something used in the attacks that took place later on. The cats weren’t captured and killed the same way. The media didn’t harp on this but I believe it was to prevent the tool from being discarded before the warrant was issued.
I just looked up wooden spearguns myself, and you can’t tell me that they honestly think that the speargun was used on a cat?
First of all, the thing is like twice as long as a bazooka. It would be kind of unsettling to see someone walking around with one of those in the neighborhood. I would call the cops in a heartbeat if I saw someone strolling along with one of them.
Second, they are designed for large fish and sea creatures. I am certainly no expert, but they seem to me like they are not really precise at targeting. The sites I have looked at suggest that they are really used for big-ass fish, and even then, they have to take care to land it in the right general area. (BTW – what a disgusting hobby – spearing fish… yuck)
Third of all, it seems like the power is so great that if someone were to actually manage to spear a cat by some stroke of luck, the cat would be dead and seriously messed up – broken and crushed bones and worse.
I am not saying that it’s impossible, but it sure sounds like an unlikely weapon.
I did a little more digging and found that the spear guns do come in different sizes, with some designed for small to medium sized fish. I actually did find one that was just 16.5″ (granted it wasn’t wooden), but most of the smaller wooden guns I found were around 26″ with a 24 – 28″ shaft. And I also saw some frickin’ HUGE ones, lol.
But yeah, if someone had one of the smaller guns, maybe the idea’s not too far-fetched.
Is he a noted marksman? I imagine it would be awfully hard to aim a spear gun at a fast moving cat, in the dark with any accuracy. Plus, the descriptions of the cat finds (remains) were: cut with surgical precision, head crushed, upper mouth bone broken/missing, genitalia missing, partially skinned: all consistent with what they find in wild/stray animal predation.
Was there an article re: puncture wounds?, repeated stab wounds? or was it simply the description of how they looked to the naked eye, i.e.: as if cut with surgical “precision?” This implies human involvement, but is also consistent with reports I’ve mention, all across the country (including NY currently, some 67 cats last I read.)
Why are you guys being nice to DP, she’s trying to come off as the new improved GV but don’t let this bitch fool or sway you. If she does then she’ll have accomplished her agenda. Man, I thought you all had her number, she’s gonna do anything & everything to plant a seed of doubt in your minds. Unfortunately by showing DP the tiniest bit of respect & listening to her pure propaganda she’s succeeding.
Noooo, she hasn’t changed my mind one bit, I’m just trying to keep a cool head about it. ;)
I think I’m being civil…but that’s because she’s conducting herself the same way. She has not planted ANY seed of doubt in my mind. I know TW killed those cats. My only wish is that the other guilty people go down in flames with him.
As for my civility towards DP I figure, “Why stress?”…. at the end of the day it’s much more likely that I’ll be on the jury and she won’t ; )
“…at the end of the day it’s much more likely that I’ll be on the jury and she won’t ; ) ”
Which underscores my valid concerns about the way these types of high profile cases are handled by the media. What happened to due process?, a fair trial?
Which underscores my valid concerns about the way these types of high profile cases are handled by the media. What happened to due process?, a fair trial?
Again with the media. I’ve already said I live in the area and I don’t need the media to tell me everything I know.
And no, there won’t be a fair trial. A fair trial would be he gets put away for a VERY long time which we all know is highly unlikely
Perhaps I’m misstating my concern. When I make reference to media, I’m including all the typical sources of “news,” where people generally get information about the ‘crime,’ the investigation, the arrest, the accused, etc. This wouldn’t include people who are an eyewitness to the event, those who have reliable contacts within the case (either defense or state), those who have a direct relationship with the accused and have reliable information as regards his/her character, etc. Such people do not turn to news, except with revulsion; they have “inside information” and see through the charade of innuendo, speculation, etc. So perhaps, living in the area, you are one of these people who have no need to rely on the “news?”
Even when we do have every confidence in our ‘more reliable’ sources, isn’t it still a good thing to allow the facts, the supporting evidence, to be produced and “tried” before we announce the verdict?
You lack confidence in the system because you say ‘if it worked he’d go away for a very long time, but he won’t…’
I lack confidence in the system because I believe that what most people know about this, or any other case, is terribly influenced by the biased press releases (handed out to members of the media by the arresting body with every interest in directing the public discourse) and then presented as news. I worry that this game taints future jurors. I worry that ‘the presumption’ becomes meaningless. I worry that the inherent protections in the system are bypassed by all this media attention.
Who can say who has or hasn’t be influenced? We like to believe we are not easily swayed (myself included), but what’s the reality? People living far from where you are have concluded he’s guilty. What do they base this on? Maybe you know something we’re not privy to yet? That would give you an advantage over all of us, even if you actually have such an advantage, isn’t it wise to ensure the accused is treated fairly, according to the law, so that if there is a conviction, it isn’t thrown out due to an excess of prejudicial “news?”
Me, I don’t know whether he is or isn’t guilty, but because I don’t know, I must lean on the presumption of innocence… “Better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer” was the way Sir Wm. Blackstone put it. Try the evidence. Allow the defense to respond, strongly! The State must prove their case, the burden must stay on them or eventually we’re all in danger (i.e. – China, the former Soviet Union)
As a footnote to this particular case: I can’t speak to a 100% certainty, of course, but I am comfortable at 99%, not because I have psychic powers, not because I know Tyler (I don’t), but because of everything I have since learned about the frequent occurrences of alleged “cat mutilations.” No, I won’t go into all that again but I will say that what convinced me that the S. FL cases are no different is the language, the descriptions, the community reactions, everything to the finest detail is identical in these cases. There is a pattern, an unavoidable pattern.
I withhold 1% of my certainty because the tests have not been released yet. Perhaps that sounds arrogant, I don’t mean it too, but based on what I’ve learned about these incidents, coupled with the tremendous support Tyler has (still standing by him, proclaiming his innocence), and the many friends, family members, and other adults in his life, who have conveyed their absolute faith that he couldn’t harm an animal based on their own observation of him w/animals over the years… Usually people who harm animals exhibit the tendency fairly young yet, Tyler has people proclaiming he loves animals, proof they emphatically claim to have seen with their own eyes. Just doesn’t make sense. Doesn’t feel right, something just doesn’t fit.
You know – it’s kind of rude to come to a message board and carry on a battle that you have in other forums. Seriously – we don’t care who said what on another board.
If you insist on continuing this crap, could you please take it to whatever board you came from? But really, it would be better if you just let bygones be bygones and talk about the case.
Thanks
Mazzi. Just because DP is trying to be civil now and open to discussions doesn’t mean she was like that from the beginning. No matter what board she’s been on she’s carried on the same rant that wild animals did the killings, but when she made a comment about people ganging up on her here because she supported TW and she accused the other members of this board of making her feel as if she couldn’t speak her mind that’s when I called her out. I found it ironic that on her moderated group she actually bans members with an opposing view and here she is crying foul for the same thing. I had to make the comment because BS and lies bug the hell out of me. Just like when she just stated that she’s never argued with me before. Again not true
She has, but it is what it is. I’m not losing sleep over it. It could be that she’s trying to keep her new image untarnished or she really doesn’t remember. Again it is what it is.
It’s not impossible to catch a cat, it depends on their personality. Of course if they don’t want you near them an elusive cat is impossible to go near. But with bait like catnip, (Like Tyler carried in his arsenil of’bait’ or food some will warm up to you right away. How do I know, I have rescued many feral cats in the country. And they don’t get anymore wild, fast or independant then colonies of cats in the woods. But some are just naturally friendly & can be coaxed to warm up to a human with food.
Also since most had homes with loving owners they had no real fear of people which made it easier for Tyler to ‘catch’ & the strays were lured by catnip & food. Also the strays most likely were used to seeing people come & go in those two subdivisions of Cutler & Palmetto Bays & may not have feared people as much as other stray or ferals living in isolation.
This is a good point and related to one I was trying to make earlier. It wouldn’t be difficult at all for a person who lived in this area to observe the cats at their leisure and pick out the ones that seemed friendly or trusting.
Jason’s advice to DueProcess, “…but don’t forget to lay out the baggage and prepare to respond about 30 times to the flaws in the original argument.”
So, here’s “the baggage” – hope it isn’t too long.
TO ALL:
All of the hatred heaped on this guy, before any one of us knows whether the accused is in fact guilty is what has made me so passionate about this particular case. Call it a “tipping point” maybe… we see more and more of this emotional manipulation in the media, someone is accused, the news screams, *case solved! bad guy caught!* and because it’s a heinous crime people start screaming for blood, all long before a trial date is set. It scares me deeply. Have we been reduced to non-rational animals, so easily turned into a lynch mob? What happened to the presumption of innocence? I came here thinking you were all doing likewise, I was wrong… several here ARE asking questions and I’m impressed w/the self restraint. It welcomes reasonable debate.
This was not what I had experienced elsewhere though. See “anonymous” below? I’m guessing this is someone from a Topix thread I was posting on. Started off there pretty much like I am now, but quickly got beat up for daring to suggest TW wasn’t guilty, for sharing what I had learned re: animal predation (and there’s a lot). The irrationality of their reaction, the venom turned on me, frightened me, it actually made me shake, sounds silly but that’s the truth. I could have just disappeared like the only other 2 thinking people posting had when they bullied them, but I wanted to get these possibilities out for anyone else who might just be reading.. I came back with the same force, didn’t used the same language, didn’t call them trolls, morons, accuse them of being paid, etc. but I can be sarcastic, and I was.
A guy posting as TruthDetector dropped in and the others seemed to really respect him… we exchanged a little and he was reasonable (we didn’t agree but we could talk)… others started telling him what a troll I was blah, blah so I asked him, “do I sound like a troll to you?”… He said no. He told me, “Topix isn’t a very nice place, you’ll need to grow a thicker skin,…” We continued to exchange thoughts and I ignored the haters, then one day he copy/pasted what I had posted when I first got there (a good post, before the viciousness began) and he said he’d miss me, he wasn’t coming there anymore, was starting a blog, said I’d kept things interesting… and he was gone. Over the next few days, the others started up again and I (stupidly!) posted responses to each one of them. Oh well, too late. They kept posting links to this site, I assumed (there’s that undo-you-in-a-minute word) that these same people were all posting over here… came to check it out. Made my first post and the rest you know.
I’ve apologized to individuals whom I’ve offended, I’ve commended the standards here (except for the language, but I’m older so…), and now I’ve given an explanation for my initial behavior. I hope that you will allow this to be put behind now. What you saw was the thick skin I grew, the outside. What you see now, this is me. I’ve seen crazy and you can’t fake sane.
correction: I believe “anonymous” might be Gina Anne, New Orleans… the only person I’ve banned at Facebook group Justice for Tyler.
anonymous posts, “I would like to beat the brains out of Tyler with his skateboard & take all his ‘tools’ out his bsckpack & stab him with his own icepick & then skin his face off with his knife as he did the 34+ felines.”
Sounds very familiar.
Ummmm….no…. you banned me too..lol…. In fact you and your predecessor banned quite a few people that believe Tyler is guilty.
I will add that yesterday you invited me back. However, why would I want to go back when the only person posting is some juvenile pseudo intellectual named Karl?
I have no idea what happened prior to my becoming admin., but it is a moderated forum w/rules. We do our best to be as fair as possible.
Uh there were a few people who said the same thing in reference to beating Tyler’s brains out with his skateboard. I read at least 3 different posters say it on FB. No I’m not gina anne but don’t disagree with the few comments I read. Also no one deleted me, I just noticed a lot of people got deleted & you took credit for it. Yet the gang from ‘peabody high school’ who told everyone Tyler was ‘a laegend’ and to go fuck yourself if we didn’t agree he was ‘the man’ and ‘a hero’ for mutilating & murdering animals didn’t get deleted, their comments are still their which means you don’t mind foul language & attacks long as it’s pro cat serial killer Tyler.
Are you referring to another Tyler group? What you’ve posted sounds like something I’ve read on … Tyler…Innocent Until Proven Guilty? I don’t think that group even has anyone administering it. I agree that that kind of talk is disrespectful, unnecessary, and doesn’t help further any debate whatsoever. If it’s on our group, I will definitely look for it and take it down, I’ll look this evening.
I did go through all posts, from the beginning and deleted several from early on – like what you’ve described (both for and against TW), if these comments are there, it’s an innocent oversight which I will correct.
Just checked and the “Peabody High School” kid posting the remarks you referred to is posting at another group (or was). That group has no admin. Checked our membership and he is not a member.
We do not have anything like that on our group.
Mazzi, certainly understand your point about not carrying some argument from wherever to this forum (in my defense, I’ve never argued with either Corymia or anonymous anywhere before), and maybe I shouldn’t be posting any response to the accusations…
Unfortunately, I did hurt my own reputation here (as has already been rehashed several times), and since they have come here to call my credibility into question, I felt I should respond. I have. Can I stop now, or do I need to continue explaining/defending myself?
Well, in my opinion there are a couple who are trolling you. Not Corymia or Red – they both seem willing to agree to disagree – but the ones who come on here to alert us about you.
I don’t think you need to defend yourself. I think that most people can see that you are reasonable and intelligent and just passionate in your beliefs. I respect that. But I don’t blame you if you can’t ignore them. That’s got to be sort of hard.
Anyway, I really wasn’t addressing that comment to you. I was trying to explain to Anonymous that she(?) looks like a vindictive stalker, and that we will make our own opinion of posters =P
I don’t quite understand why she is so worried that you “might plant a seed of doubt” in people’s heads. Isn’t that what being openminded is about? Or is it more important that everyone stay on the bandwagon, no matter what evidence or doubts come up? Weird.
Thanks for that and yes, ’tis a tad “weird.” lol
btw: I have something sort of lengthy I’d like to post…, some of my thoughts on media influence, the importance of trying the evidence, etc… any rules? (8 paragraphs, started as a response to Corymia re: the system/jury and it grew lol) I think it’s worth posting, but I’m biased.
Mazzi – Just realized how stupid my question re: lengthy post is! I’ve already posted several “lengthy” ones! Assuming if it were a problem someone would have informed me of it, so I’m going to go ahead and post it.
Anyone who excuses, condones or apologizes for Tyler is as bad as the cat killer IMO. They know believe me, I don’t know whether it’s pride that makes them so stubborn to the truth, they’re in to denying his guilt too deep now, but something is wrong with them. As an animal lover and advocate for ending abuse they are my enemy the same as someone like tyler is. With their mind set nothing can be done to improve treatment of animals, I wish they’d die along with the real abusers. None of them care & the tyler’s are sadists who don’t feel alive unless hurting an innocent defenseless victim who can’t fight back, what a shit eating reject coward.
Well Due Process, you can go back to your ‘high standards’ you suddenly deem important. I just wanted to say I see through you & hope others do as well. You are the definition of a wolf in sheeps clothing. Your new persona doesn’t fool me even a little bit. But hey good luck if you sway even one person to doubt Tyler’s guilt you did your job.
I don’t know what your problem is with me, except that I disagree with your premise. I have never used the kind of language, nor accused anyone, the way you have me. If you can’t abide fair and reasonable rules, if you can’t state your case without threatening to do God-awful things to someone who has so far only been accused then maybe your problem isn’t with me, per se.
Anyone can check every word I’ve posted, anywhere, and they’ll find someone consistently standing for the accused’ right to due process, and information which – I believe – seriously suggests – that “crimes” have not even occurred.
Let me add that IF it turns out that this young man did do these things, which I am 99.9% sure he did not (based on my own research and sources), but IF the tests come back evidencing his guilt: come to the group and see what I have to say then.
Please don’t assume that I advocate cruelty to animals because I defend someone’s right to be heard.
I’m curious. You base your belief that this kid is innocent because of other cases that were thought to be done by humans and instead were done by animals. My question is, in those other cases did they have a suspect that had the same type of evidence piled up against him/her? Did they find cutting instruments, duct tape, needles, etc? Were they able to place the person at numerous scenes of the crime?
In at least one case I read of they had four suspects. Prior to arrests being made, pathology testing was performed.
and let’s add that in the Weinman case, we don’t what the evidence is yet… we know what they collected, what they will test to see IF it is evidence, but there was no physical evidence named in the affidavit, and not one witness that he so much as ‘touched’ a cat. I find that strange with the highly alert communities, the police surveillance, etc.
sorry …we don’t *know* what…
I’ll say this, it’s not impossible for an animal to have attacked some of the cats. In fact that’s why out of so many they only charged him with 19. Had this been a case of, say, 10-15 cats altogether or even 20 (which I think is very high), I would be much more open to the idea of another animal being the attacker. This wasn’t the case. Plus there are certain things that have ruled out another animal in those 19 cases.
LE and several people have placed him at or near the area where some of the cats were caught or dumped. I don’t think they saw him actually kill a cat because this was always done in the wee hours of the morning and he only captured or dumped the cats in the area. That can just take a few minutes at most.
As for the highly alerted communities you’d be surprised. It literally took weeks for this story to really make headlines and still there were plenty of people that weren’t aware. Not only that, LE were working a tough battle. Just look at the comments made by some locals. “Glad he did it”, “I hate cats”, “Cats are annoying they shouldn’t be roaming around to begin with”, etc. – Do you think these people would waste their time coming forward?
I think that attitude along with the threat of TW getting a stiff sentence has hurt the witness list. At the end of the day, this is a middle class family with a screwed up kid. How many of us can relate? lol- Although I think his behavior is psychotic and frightening, many would again say these are just cats and the kid needs help, not a stiff sentence.
I have asked this before, and I don’t think I have heard an answer – have the cat deaths stopped? If no more animals have turned up dead since Tyler was arrested, that would be a pertinent piece of information, and would certainly reduce the likelihood of them being animal attacks. If they have continued, that would lead one to believe that either Tyler is the wrong suspect, or that animal attacks are a real possibility.
Oops – I see I missed some posts. Red said that Jason alluded to the idea that there were two more cats attacked while Tyler was in custody.
That is relevant, in my opinion. I hope that those cats have been autopsied and compared to the other cats.
I appreciate the detailed response, Corymia, and I’d like to address each point you’ve raised.
33 cats’ remains discovered altogether. Numbers of cats credited to “dogs” by Miami-Dade LE, stated in initial releases: 14; number of deaths TW charged with: 19. Concurrently, Lauderhill (50mi. away?) was experiencing the exact same “finds,” 17 cases total. Pathology testing determined all were due to animals, most likely dogs. To see the pattern presented in these other “mutilation” cases I’ve referenced repeated in a nearby town, (not to mention within M-D by M-D PD’s own early admission), lends credence to the possibility that ALL these type of cases will be found to be attributable to the same “cause.” M-D may have had pathologist examine remains, however, no press release thus far to indicate it’s been done.
TW seen in the area, not witnessed making contact w/any cat, wee hours: Being seen outside using cellphone past midnight doesn’t seem suspicious when we consider he’s 18, it’s Florida, and it’s summertime; even walking around could easily be explained if he had been at a friend’s house, was he carrying video games in his back pack? The GPS that puts him “near” (not at, mind you, but “near”): He lives in these areas, is it not normal to be tracked in these areas? (friends, parents, work, girlfriend, stores, etc.) Even the car mentioned in the affidavit (black car down the street from where police are investigating yet another find; this cat near the mailbox, by the road…), including it in the affidavit implies it was Tyler’s car and yet they don’t say that…? Cats being discovered nearby a location he was seen at? How long was the cat there for? Was it already dead prior to TW being seen? How long had it been missing for? If other areas were searched today with great care, how many more might be found?
As I’m writing this, I started thinking of the increased risk if a person was doing this: first, remove the cat from its area to some other place, then kill it, then bring it back to where you found it, or even climb a fence to place it in a backyard? Sounds ludicrous, doesn’t it? (and picture this person carrying a speargun to boot?)
Again, not to be a broken record, but isn’t it far more feasible that either the cat was struck by a car and dragged by a predatory animal, or just killed by the animal (although I tend to lean toward the first scenario because an injured cat is far easier for a dog to catch)? Dogs climb fences. What if the cat was injured and managed to find its way back into it’s own yard and was pursued by an animal that smelled blood? Why was no blood found? Cat’s have only 1/2 pint in their bodies, upon death the heart stops, blood flow ceases, the body is drained through injuries in a relatively short time span.
Lastly to the comments you referenced from down your way, about these outdoor pets being a nuisance and people celebrating their deaths? Sick, just plain sick. Where’s the empathy for the owner’s loss, especially if they believe a person did these things, they should be appalled not jubilant. They scare me as much as the one’s who go into terrifying detail of what they’d do to the young man who’s been charged here.
Mazzi, “…If no more animals have turned up dead since Tyler was arrested, that would be a pertinent piece of information…”
Another really interesting point, imo, where LE has a problem.
TW was taken in for questioning approx midnight 6/13/09 (at a party Sat. night). Earlier that same day (6/13/09 a.m.) Miami-Dade Animal control captures to stray pit bulls. They are on the news. The dogs have visibly deep facial scratch wounds. Animal Control states that “one is very aggressive,” that the 2 dogs had killed at least 9 cats, 3 Friday morning alone (just these 2 dogs!?), they further state that they hope the communities will be able to start relaxing now that they have these 2 dogs off the street…
When did the killings cease? After the dogs were captured, or after TW was taken in? Problem.
Just came across this site someone has posted on Tyler Weinman. Some interesting thoughts (doubting the charges), but the photos are what got my attention. If you have animals it’s hard to ignore, there’s an unmistakable attachment (affinity) to the animals in his life.
http://www.tylerlovescats.com/
I don’t know if he is a noted marksman, however, since the gun was confiscated from his home I would deduce that he would at the very least be familiar with how to use it. As for the cats being fast-moving, remember, most of these were family pets and used to humans, so it’s not necessarily true that they were running away, especially if they had been lured with food, etc.
The affidavit states, on page 9, “The cat had also suffered two puncture wounds, one in the chest and the other at the rear hind portion of the body.” These were found during an on-scene preliminary examination by the M-D Animal Services Dept. investigator.
I’d like to point out that I am not saying that this particular cat WAS shot with a spear gun; I’m just bringing up the possibility.
Dammit, replied in the wrong place again!
Not to be combative, just playing Devil’s Advocate for a minute…
“Dad” is a dentist, can probably afford deep sea fishing trips, probably is the owner of the spear gun… how are we able to deduce that his son was familiar with its use? (my husband hunts, my son has never used dad’s bow).
“The affidavit states, on page 9, “The cat had also suffered two puncture wounds, one in the chest and the other at the rear hind portion of the body.”” Does the affidavit note “cause” or once more simply imply it? Are the puncture wounds inconsistent with the canine teeth of say, a stray pit bull?
Separately, the problem I have with the testing question is this: if M-D has had pathology exams done, to what benefit is keeping the results secret? Doesn’t it seem that if these types of detailed tests have been completed, and IF they prove human involvement, that they would – at the very least – stand tall and say, “we have the forensic evidence necessary to prove these cats were killed by a person?” To me, at least, it seems more likely that a) they haven’t done the scientific tests, or b) they did them AFTER the arrest and the results do NOT support their theory…
Once again, I’m stating that I’m only bringing this up as a possibility.
“how are we able to deduce that his son was familiar with its use? (my husband hunts, my son has never used dad’s bow).”
By that same token, I have family members who hunt, I’ve seen them use bows, and though I’ve never used one myself, I am familiar with how they are used and would most likely be able to use one myself if I ever chose to. What are the odds, if the spear gun truly did belong to dad, that Tyler had NEVER seen him use it? I guess that’s possible, though a bit unlikely.
“Does the affidavit note “cause” or once more simply imply it? Are the puncture wounds inconsistent with the canine teeth of say, a stray pit bull?”
Again, what you see is what you get. The affidavit simply states that the puncture wounds are there; there is no further description of the nature of the wounds, other than their location.
“Separately, the problem I have with the testing question is this: if M-D has had pathology exams done, to what benefit is keeping the results secret? Doesn’t it seem that if these types of detailed tests have been completed, and IF they prove human involvement, that they would – at the very least – stand tall and say, “we have the forensic evidence necessary to prove these cats were killed by a person?” To me, at least, it seems more likely that a) they haven’t done the scientific tests, or b) they did them AFTER the arrest and the results do NOT support their theory…”
I don’t have all the answers, and at this point, no one does. I believe that SOME testing has been done, for the simple reason that these particular 19 cases have been culled from a much larger number. There must be something there that differentiates these 19 from the others. What that is, I don’t know, and why they don’t release the results, I can only assume that they have their reasons. From what I understand, they are not required to release anything else until the trial. If, as you propose, the tests were done and the results didn’t support their theory, wouldn’t it make sense to release Tyler? What would be the point of keeping him if the tests showed no human involvement?
Red Scharron, “If, as you propose, the tests were done and the results didn’t support their theory, wouldn’t it make sense to release Tyler? What would be the point of keeping him if the tests showed no human involvement?”
One cynical answer: reputations and costs incurred.
At this point, IF the results are in and IF they are not conducive to the theory (which we can’t know but let’s hypothesize)… Miami-Dade officials have to contend with the statements they have issued, the accusations they have leveled, the certainty w/which they asserted them, the arrest itself, the BIG $$ invested in the case, etc. I would guess that to save face they would be pressuring the accused to take a deal (ANY deal!) and fast. “Marathon interrogation sessions” with local teens have been conducted, no further arrests mentioned, so much for the “accomplices” theory.
The accused will likely be advised that he can take the deal or face a jury: a jury strongly influenced by the statements they’ve put out thus far, likely quite hostile to any defense, and TW (w/his parents, attorney) will have to decide whether to face people that truly hate him, to try to prove his innocence, risking the penalty if he fails to clear his name… or take the deal, leaving an appearance of some involvement in order to reduce the possible penalty/risk.
I wouldn’t want to be in such a position. Now, if they can get the physical proof that TW was not involved, that in fact ‘no person’ did these things, they would have enough to bury the prosecution and it might be worth the risk of a jury. Might not even go to trial at that point but then TW has the problem of people who will believe (because their was no trying of the facts) he simply got off on some technicality. His reputation is ruined, he is forever pegged as a “sociopath who mutilated cats.” They would have to sue, to clear his name, which opens a whole other can of worms.
Whatever happens, should be interesting.
I can agree that situations like the one you outlined can and probably do happen, but, as you said yourself, there’s no way we can know at this point.
Guess we’ll just have to wait and see, and agree to disagree in the meantime.
I am pretty confident that his lawyer would not take a jury trial in this case. Juries are much more likely to be emotional rather than looking at the absolute evidence and the letter of the law. A judge trial would be the way to go here.
You want a jury trial when your client has a chance of striking a sympathetic chord with them, not when they are all ready to lynch him up front. Also, jury trials are better when you want certain evidence to be excluded.
It all boils down to exactly what evidence the authorities have that they have not yet made public.
Knowing that we can’t know more at present then, hypothetically:
If it turns out that no person was involved in these “killings,” i.e. there is no ‘crime,’ and supposing that the DA drops the charges (can’t imagine any DA having that kind of courage after they’ve put themselves way out there), how would he clear his name without a trial? What happens? Is a lawsuit then the only option? These cities are protected w/limits to what they can be sued for, but how hard is to get a suit heard in order to restore someone’s name, get the truth out?
Can anyone tell me: what’s the easiest way to keep up with newly posted comments? (do you have to search up/down and just look?)
There are two tricks that I use depending on whether I am looking for responses to my posts, or just looking to see what’s new.
For new posts, I use the “find” feature on my browser. I use Firefox and it is under the “edit” tab. The search box pops up at the bottom of my screen, and I put in today’s date (or whatever date I am looking for), and then just scroll through. It’s not great, but it works. I am sure Internet Explorer and probably all web browsers have a similar feature.
To quickly find responses to my posts, I made an account with Gravatar, so I have an icon next to my name. I can just scroll down the page looking for my icon, and then see if anything is under it.
It’s not the best format ever, but on a scale of 1-10, I would give PYSIH a 7-8. It’s worth it =)
Thank you.
I’m on Firefox too and have been using “find” but never thought of putting the date in! (been searching my posts and looking for responses… slow and tedious) As for rating the site’s ease of use – high marks, the replies in connecting columns are nice and clean.
Just had to test this Gravatar out – see if it works ;)
(DueProcess wasn’t available, had to make a minor change)
I wonder how much mommy and daddy paid to have this website cut and pasted…
http://www.tylerlovescats.com
DP – please don’t insult our intelligence with idiotic comments like “oh tyler loves cats you can’t fake that”. He’s a fuckin sociopath. You are faking having a brain.
I don’t know who put the site up and I don’t care.
To me, as someone ‘owned by cats and a dog,’ having watched my own son grow up around our animals, I look at the pictures of Tyler “growing up w/cats,” I look at his body language in the pics, his facial expressions, and conclude, with a good deal of confidence that, no, you can not fake that. There’s no mischievous ‘wait until no ones looking’ expression, he is seen lovingly sleeping w/a cat that is obviously content around him.
If you see something different and disagree, point it out.
Can anyone explain away the large scratches on the serial cat killer’s back? I’ve had cats all my life & not once has any of them feral, tame whatever, wscratched me in such a severa way. My only conclusion is the cat was fighting Tyler for it’s life.
We did discuss this earlier.
It is possible that the scratches came when (if?) the POSSIBLE cat serial killer brought a stray cat into his house to protect it from the real cat killer, as he has stated he did.
Jason pointed out that it’s most likely that if he is the serial cat killer that the first cat would have been the most likely to have scratched him. Any future cat killings would have been more likely that he would have prevented the possibility due to experience. Even sociopaths can learn to refine their techniques.
So, really, it comes down to information that we do not have currently. How old were the scratches when they were found? Were they old and almost healed, or were they fresh? Is there corroboration that he actually brought a stray cat into his house? If so, when was that, and how does that match against the freshness of his wounds? Are there witnesses who saw him get scratched, or soon after it happened, and what excuse did he give them at that time?
This is all vital information that must be answered before anyone can come to a conclusion about the scratches. No matter what you feel “in your gut”, it’s not the same as real evidence.
OK, this is an excerpt from the affidavit, I shortened a couple words. How in god’s name could this be blamed on any animal? So animals have opposible thumbs & the capability to get inside a fenced back yard to dispose of the cat’s dead bodies, really? No fu**ing way.
Tyler Weinman Arrest Affivadit:
“On May 10, 2009 2 dead cats were found at 19741 Whispering Pines Rd.. Both cats were killed, one appeared to be posed with a slit down the middle of it’s stomach. Both cats were cut with a sharp object. The cats bodies were left in a fenced yard belonging to Marie QAkers. Ms. Akers did not give anyone permission to enetr her fenced yard to dospose of animals.”
Copied from an earlier post:
“Again, not to be a broken record, but isn’t it far more feasible that either the cat was struck by a car and dragged by a predatory animal, or just killed by the animal (although I tend to lean toward the first scenario because an injured cat is far easier for a dog to catch)? Dogs climb fences. What if the cat was injured and managed to find its way back into it’s own yard and was pursued by an animal that smelled blood? Why was no blood found? Cat’s have only 1/2 pint in their bodies, upon death the heart stops, blood flow ceases, the body is drained through injuries in a relatively short time span.”
———————
Also, there is no need for “opposable thumbs.” The terminology used has strongly suggested human involvement, “posed as if to taunt the owners,” seemingly “cut w/surgical precision,” belly cut open, insides spilled out, genitalia missing, no blood, etc. You don’t like my explanation but it’s still fact that in all these other cases (many different communities, across the country – and NY currently has 67 cases) everyone believed it had to be the work of “persons” precisely for the reasons you state. In every case, once the pathologists looked closer: animal predation.
I’m not making this up ‘to help Tyler,’ I’m relaying facts, noticeable patterns. Now in the Weinman case, we do not yet know whether M-D has done the tests, or what the results are BUT we do know that this exact same hysteria has struck many other communities and they ALL ended up being attributed to wild/stray animal predation once the remains were examined by pathologists. (even vets were fooled)
If M-D has testing that PROVES a human was involved then it will be the first time that I know of where there was absolutely no evidence of a human’s presence any where in the immediate area: no physical evidence whatsoever is listed in the affidavit, and where the terminology is identical to all these many other cases. Where human cruelty is to blame there is always some indication (shallow grave, chain, duct tape, evidence of fire, animal is pinned down by arrow, knife, etc) – something.
Your affiant immediately noticed a prominent red-colored scratch across the right side of Weinman’s neck. “I got them from a stray cat I feed at my mom’s house.”
Um how in the hell did Tyler go about feeding a stray? As someone who rescues domesticated & feral cats I swear to God this does not happen. What did he do hold the cat & shove it’s face it the food? Feed the cat lying on his face with the dish on his stomach? I mean honestly it might be possible but highly, highly unlikely.’
See what you do is leave a dish out with food in your garage, on the sidewalk then you leave the area especially if you know a cat is skittish. The cat will return to eat the food, it doesn’t really want you there trying to feed it. It knows how to feed itself. The stray cat story is a total lie. Can I prove it no, but am I 100% he’s a fuc*** liar who was killing the cats & was scratched because they were trying to defend themselves from a killer, YES.
A lifetime of having cats, rescuing cats & dogs I know animals a lot better then little Tyler Weinman. The only thing he knows how to do & I don’t is dissect & mutilate them.
“I got them from a stray cat I feed at my mom’s house.”
Why attach greater significance to this statement than just take it for a statement of fact, the same way as if I was putting food out for a stray I would tell my friend “I feed it at my house.”
Scratches: when asked about the scratch on his neck he told the det. that he got it from a stray he had tried to bring in his mom’s house so that it wouldn’t get hurt like so many others that were turning up dead. He was concerned and joined the FB group to keep up, just like everyone else… he’d been feeding (putting food out for) this stray, twice cops had approached him at night to warn him about the “cat killer” (possibly stated in some manner as to suggest ‘he’ might be that killer to which he would laugh, if innocent, as in “huh – no way!”)… so he asks mom if they can bring it inside overnight. He tells the detective about this and then goes further (getting “excited”) to prove he’s telling the truth, he tells the det. “just look what it did to my back when I tried to bring it in the house!” lifts his shirt to show proof and tells how the cat ran down his back to run back out.
We don’t know at this point but what I’m suggesting is that there is a reasonable explanation for everything that has been revealed so far, all of which has been the one-sided ‘interpretation’ of the detective who believed him to be guilty.
Mazzi with all due respect the theory doesn’t wash, cats don’t scratch in such a way that Tyler was scratched by ‘bringing them in’ or ‘trying to feed them’ no fuc*** way…no how. Unless he got hold of some particularly deranged animals or ones with rabies it doesn’t wash.
A more reasonable, believable & logical explanation is he was targeting, preying upon & in a viscous manner killing the cats & they were fighting back. Which is more believable to you??
I rescue cats, don’t tell me he got all those scratches trying to ‘bring strays in’ or ‘feed strays’ it ain’t gonna happen.
What is he retarded, how tf was he trying to feed the cats? You set down a fuc**** bowl of food for them. They either show up to eat or don’t. Was he forcing them to eat shoving their face in the food? How in the hell was he bringing ’strays in the house’ when I save ferals I take my time & they get to know me. If it’s an emergency & they are hurt I have a soft carrier I put them in.
I take a towel to gently pick them up with & put them in the carrier. If they are elusive & don’t want you near them they will not attack like they did Tyler, you just will not be able to get near them. He lured them with catnip, food, then sprung an attack on them catching the cats off guard which is why they fought like hell & scratched him. Many had good homes & were not afraid of people. theyt would never have scratched him unless their life was threatened. The strays he probably poisoned or somehow rendered unable to run away.
Man you all, really think about this before you just buy any bull shit you’re fed. I know cats & what Tyler is saying his excuses just don’t happen & make no sense. If you know cats at all you will have to agree with me. Have I been scratched yes, my hands, arms once with an injured cat but very, very seldom. After 20 yrs of working in animal rights & rescue. I know cats & they bond with me because I understand them & I’m telling you Tyler killed those cats, mutilated, tortured & he loved it. A sadist & sociopath Tyler needs to be kept off the street away from everyone’s pets, he’s a monster.
I’m done here until after the trial. I love a good debate as much as the next girl but reading the nonsense out of someone like GV mouth when I know she’s got an agenda & people actually considering it to be possible is more than I can stand. You’re giving “Due Process” a platform to spew her filth, good luck with that!!
It’s really tough to believe that you have a gentle enough spirit to bond w/feral cats. Maybe you’re not like this around them,,, who knows.
Anyhow, you stated, “Have I been scratched yes, my hands, arms once with an injured cat but very, very seldom. After 20 yrs of working in animal rights & rescue.”
So try to imagine someone w/o 20 years experience like you, someone who is afraid that someone or something is going to hurt the cat he’s been putting food out for, let’s say it’s been hanging around long enough that it doesn’t dart away the moment he is near anymore, remains wary but might let hm stand there and watch if he doesn’t move – let’s say he manages to get it on his shoulder and attempts to carry it inside… What exactly do you think it will do? It will claw his neck and race down his back toward the still open door.
Totally irrelevant but out of curiosity – why are you so full of hatred? Do you think that you’re the only person who has ever rescued animals? Do you have any idea whether I have? You continually spew hatred at me because I dare to suggest less complicated explanations for what might have occurred in S. Fl, most of which is carefullt thought out and written as carefully as possible. You assume I have an “agenda?” Maybe you’re right. Want to know what it is? To stay rational and objective as long as I’m sucking air.
Why not take some of that energy and direct it toward considering other points of view. Neither you nor I have any evidence yet. Why not breathe until we do.
Thanks for letting me participate here Max, Mazzi, Justin. I appreciate the chance to be among others who reason, who wonder and question and don’t wish to condemn someone before the evidence is even in. Your fairness to me personally speaks highly of your standards.
I have posted a tremendous amount here, and elsewhere. I have felt driven in this case, and I can’t even tell you what about this case in particular has compelled me to find out more and more, to speak out as I have. I just felt I had to. (ever get that way about something?)
Anyhow, I’m really feeling drained and very burned out and I’m going to pull back for awhile – no more posting (can she do it? lol) — I’ll pop in from time to time just to follow the conversation but I don’t intend to post anymore until we get the results of the necropsies, or whatever comes ‘next.’
Okay, well thanks and keep doing what you do. :)
JASON! (NOT justin)
Burn out, what’d I tell ya ;)
You’re not even the first person on this site to call me Justin for some reason.
You did well, you’re smarter than your first posts suggested (a compliment, if a playfully back handed one) and that 23% of me that’s unsure of Tyler’s guilt, actually hopes you’re right, so I can congratulate you for your convictions, and apologize for the earlier snipes.
That said, if you’re wrong, I hope it won’t crush you. I hope you’ll still come back, burn Tyler in effigy for betraying your trust, however little he owed you, and then move on to something else. There’s a need for a “reasonable” public defender here. We have a good mob that shows up, a few hecklers in the peanut gallery and a good set of wits and groundling prosecutors, but the defenders we usually see show up with retreaded arguments based off of bad puns, religious misunderstandings and familial attachment. It was a breath of fresh air to see someone who was honestly connected to the case from a position of growth, and who personally adapted to the format some of us wanted to hear in order to “convince” not merely shout the opposition down.
You navigated the bullies well and hats off to you, even if I fear (in that competitive way of mine) that you’re in for a bit of disappointment.
Thanks for the high praise, Jason :)
Don’t worry about me being crushed if it turns out that I’m wrong; would rather defend someone’s rights and find out he’s guilty than to assume guilt and discover he is innocent.
“There’s a need for a “reasonable” public defender here.”
I will take that as an invitation to play the role if another case is to strike me as strongly. Thank you.
That’s kind of my attitude too. I would rather see a guilty person go free than to railroad an innocent one.
I almost never take a side on a circumstantial case. If there is strong proof, and/or a confession, I will vote hell in a heartbeat. But when it’s a statistical kind of case (the husband must be guilty, because the husbands are ALWAYS guilty) I get really cantankerous. Sure, 90% of the time the husband DID do it… but we have to understand that there is still always that 10%.
That’s why we have judges, juries, rules of court and all that. And we don’t convict people based on the Nancy Grace “shriek louder to prove your point” theatrics.
Once the court has spoken… that’s good enough for me. Till then, it’s all just speculation.
Thank you, Mazzi :)
Your ‘credo,’ as summed up here and expressed elsewhere, is exactly why I came to respect you guys! (once I stopped long enough to discover it lol)
I’m not ‘leaving’ (DEEP BREATHS, Evangeline), just pulling back to refresh and regroup after total immersion. I think my posts can stand on their own without feeling like I need to respond to each one of Nancy dis-Grace’s latest ‘victims.’ (what hold does she have on people?, she’s had enough ethics violations to choke the entire legal system, besides, I’ve never trusted anyone who throws the word “friend” around so casually…. “step into my parlor, said the spider to the fly…” lol). No need for me to post any more ‘case specific’ until there’s some news.
You guys are posting on several cases (some, the ‘headlines’ alone are more than I can bear… the evil man is capable of, it’s too much), which creates its own kind of ‘balance,’ but for me it’s just been this one and I need a break. Like I told Jason, I’ll drop in just to stay up on the “conversation,” but until things heat up again, I’m going to go find where I left my life at. lol
BTW: thanks for teaching me how to “rise above” without the 50lbs of armor ;)
Don’t leave DP! Like Justin (Jason’s evil twin) said – we kinda like you here. LOL
BY DAVID OVALLE
dovalle@MiamiHerald.com
Scalpels, knives, nylon rope with duct tape attached, computers, cameras and clothing were among items seized by detectives investigating alleged cat serial killer Tyler Weinman, according to court documents released Friday.
From his father’s car, which detectives believe Weinman drove during the killings, investigators took everything from floor mats to gloves.
Detectives are also examining Weinman’s boxer briefs and other articles of clothing found in a black plastic bag in the trunk of his mother’s green Volkswagen Passat. Police believe she was removing the items from the house when detectives arrived.
__________________________________
All the evidence hasn’t been released because forensics aren’t finished testing. I agree he might get away with it because so far it’s circumstantial. He’s guilty & all they need is blood, dna tying him to the killings, I hope they find it.
Cat-Carving Teenager a Sociopath: Detectives
Posted Jul 7, 09 5:02 AM CDT in Crime & Courts, US | Share Newser
(Newser Summary) – A Florida teen charged with killing 19 cats in his Miami community became so excited talking about feline dissection that detectives were convinced he was a sociopath. Tyler Weinman, 18, eagerly spoke of the appealing “tearing sound” of cat dissection. Police discovered cutting tools in his home and a long cat scratch on his back.
______________________________________________
According to the school officials where Tyler dissected the cats a deads animals flesh does not make a tearing sound. So was Tyler reminiscing about the LIVE CATS
Cat-Carving Teenager a Sociopath: Detectives
Posted Jul 7, 09 5:02 AM CDT in Crime & Courts, US | Share Newser
(Newser Summary) – A Florida teen charged with killing 19 cats in his Miami community became so excited talking about feline dissection that detectives were convinced he was a sociopath. Tyler Weinman, 18, eagerly spoke of the appealing “tearing sound” of cat dissection. Police discovered cutting tools in his home and a long cat scratch on his back.
______________________________________________
According to the school officials where Tyler dissected the cats a deads animals flesh does not make a tearing sound. So was Tyler reminiscing about the LIVE CATS he tore limb from limb before posing them in the front & back yards of their owners? Becoming so excited he was going to orgasm?
That sounds much more believable to me. I spoke with someone in their 60’s who dissected cats back in the day & he said a dead cat’s body will not make a tearing sound but possibly killing one will if you mutilate it as Tyler did.
Dissecting animals is disgusting & primitive when there are computer programs that teach & simulate the same thing without the blood & gore.
Good bye ‘due process’ I think they are being kind. You took this site over basically & whenever that happens it becomes all about you not the subject of the group. So imo so long & don’t let the door hit your ass on the way out. Just my opinion from what I’ve read Tyler’s Mama is writing a novel here. You guys were more fun & in tune with each other before she crashed your scene. Maybe like I’m doing but now I’m outta here awhile.
ROFL. You know she isnt going anywhere. She doesnt have that ability.
Mazzi I read on another thread about Tyler here that you think Peta’s ridiculous & Tyler somehow gets a free pass because of other many abuses going on against animals everyday.
So Mazzi you think just because there are other ills in this world, factory farms which I loath & I don’t eat meat all the other abuses in the world this somehow excuses a little fuck running around in the dead of night dressed in black with an arsenal of ‘tools’ knives, ice picks torturing & mutilating his neighbors cats & posing them on their lawns?
Why don’t you make a run with Tyler next time he does it? And if he gets by with this he will repeat. Then come back here & compare it to eating meat & feeding your cat friskies ok.
I’m a vegetarian & detest all animal abuse, I hate zoos too. Do I want to rid the world of all evil humans inflict on animals yes. But I’ll take what I can get one cruelty at a time we are working to change laws arrest dog fighters abuse in the meat industry. But these abuses don’t make & Tyler’s criminal actions less deplorable or against the law, it is what it is. Factory farming, vivisection is not against the law but I’m fighting with Peta, the HSUS Sea Shepards for the day we look upon all cruelty & unnecessary human inflicted death on animals as murder.
That’s a sorrowful damn excuse for you compare Tyler’s sick crimes to other cruelties as if that somehow makes his sadistic actions less serious. Do you have a pet? Let someone come over & skin your damn pet alive & see if you still want to play it down or compare it to the steak you shove down your fat gluttonous face.
______________________________________________________
“All living things love their life, desire pleasure and do not like pain; they dislike any injury to themselves; everybody is desirous of life and to every being, his life is very dear.” Yogashastra (Jain Scripture)
“All the arguments to prove man’s superiority can not shatter this hard fact: In suffering, the animals are our equals.” Singer, Peter activist author Animal Liberation
___________________________________________________
I’ve never liked like PETA’s militaristic stance, their hatred of humankind, etc., but your post has really nailed it for me. You, as representing PETA, have just moved me from dislike to; how can we get rid of this vengeful organization?!
The venom you’ve thrown at Mazzi in your post makes my skin CRAWL. I’ve spent quite a while reading through her (and others’) posts, on several of the threads here, and I can honestly say she strikes me as compassionate, empathetic, objective, and reasonable. Haven’t read anything that she has said to warrant the type of garbage you have spewed.
You end your post w/lovely quotes about how every living thing “loves life, dislikes pain…” following THIS rant: “Let someone come over & skin your damn pet alive & see if you still want to play it down or compare it to the steak you shove down your fat gluttonous face.” Wow, what a disconnect.
“Do I want to rid the world of all evil humans inflict on animals yes.”
To wish any human dead can in no way be considered a superior position to those who inflict harm on animals. To inflict harm is to inflict harm. Period. You’ve said frighteningly hateful things about the young man accused w/these crimes, never once have you prefaced your vitriol with the words, “if he did this.” That scares the hell out of me.
You hate people so much that you would revel in doing to him what you only THINK he has done to these cats — BEFORE THE FIRST PIECE OF EVIDENCE IS PRODUCED based purely on your twisted, preexisting hatred of man. With that same hatred you lash out like a wild animal at anyone who questions any single aspect of this case.
I don’t know what Mazzi posted to set you off but I am certain whatever it was was turned inside-out by a mind poisoned with hate.
Let me leave YOU with a quote:
“A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.” ~Jesus (John 13:34-35)
“Do I want to rid the world of all evil humans inflict on animals yes.”
Rid the world of the evil humans do… rid the world of evil humans…
I may have misinterpreted this one line of yours but I think it’s fair to assume, based on the vicious hostility of your posts, that the conclusions I’ve come to are not off base. (and quite possibly you WOULD be happy to rid the world of humans you don’t like – I’m sure your next post will clear the matter up)
Wait. WHAT? (Jesus… stay away for a few days and look what happens…)
What the FUCK are you talking about? I went back and read what I wrote on the other board and you are twisting and warping what I wrote. Deliberately or just sheer stupidity? And not even twisting and warping well. You are not just a frootloop, you are a failure at frootlooping. Shall we begin debunking your stupid post? Ok..
I did suggest that PETA was ridiculous for criticizing Obama for swatting a fucking FLY. (I do think they are also ridiculous and morally dishonest for some of the other things they do also – but I didn’t SAY that in my post.) I NEVER said a fucking word about Tyler getting a free pass. In fact, I SAID – as I have said consistently – that if he is guilty, he needs to be punished hard.
Again WHAT? Where the fuck did you get that? Pulled it out of your fucking ass? I not only never said any of that, I don’t believe it. Each crime stands on it’s own, no matter what other people have done that is worse. Period.
I was referring to a specific smug and stupid HYPOCRITE who said that killing ALL animals was wrong, because she is a vegetarian and she loves her kittys. I pointed out that she feeds her beloved kitties meat. Even a five year old should be able to understand the context there.
BULLSHIT! I never said, implied or suggested that anywhere or any time. EVER! Go look again, and this time wear your glasses and take off your tinfoil hat!
Kiss my ass you LYING loser! At least if you are going to be a bald-faced liar, you should TRY to do it with style, lol.
I suggest anyone who cares go read my comments on the other Tyler board, and see what a lunatic Evangeline is. I mean really. She needs serious help. Honestly anyone who knows me even a little bit probably doesn’t need to look it up to know that I not only never said (and WOULD never say) any of that garbage, but that I don’t believe it.
What’s really sad is that this is completely verifiable. At least if you are going to lie you should try to do it in a way that can’t be disproved in 2 seconds. LOL. Moron.
Mazzi – Not only did you swat a bigger fly than Obama ever dared, you have also made an outstanding case for the appropriate use of “foul language!” LMAO
And, thank you. I’m glad to be welcome here. Having found a place to call ‘home’ online; a place where discussion is possible among (generally) honest and intelligent advocates of justice, has given me new hope! Being exposed to the “Evangelines” for far too long, I was almost convinced the world had gone completely mad! Not here though! TY TY TY ;)
Due Process so they were right you can’t stay away from where nobody wants you. I won’t answer you because I wasn’t fucking addressing you.
No particular order:
1. You just answered me, three times w/7 more speculative rants following. (‘how many websites [I've] crashed? – have posted on two open forums about this – you?)
2. As to no one wanting me here, Jason and Mazzi have each indicated that I was welcome, and Max earlier allowed a fresh start and hasn’t said I was not welcome.
3. This is an open forum, people respond to posts.
4. I have (at least twice) posted that I would be checking out the conversation here – pulling back, not leaving. Compared to the numbers of posts I was making, I think it’s obvious I have done so.
5. Your posts are so provocative, your assumptions so broad, your accusations so venomous — it’s like a freaking magnet, a bad accident that I can’t look away from. What you post demands a response.
YOUR so-called EVIDENCE:
- the sharp instruments you’ve listed as proof of Tyler’s guilt are nothing more than items taken from his parents home, the majority of which sound like dental instruments: his dad is a dentist. (whether they prove to be ‘evidence’ is YET TO BE discovered)
- it was someone else who stated that two more deaths had been reported since Tyler’s arrest; I was the one who said that it was possible that the 2 pit bulls captured the same day as TW was (later) taken in for questioning that were most likely the ’cause’ of there being no further deaths. (I lean heavily on the belief that animals were the cause & therefore it is highly likely that deaths continue to occur, since the high alert is over they are just not being found at the same rate)
- the sharp/cutting instrument found on the ground, outside TW’s car night of “stop” — Any word on what that was? Any report of cops witnessing him toss it out of his window? NO. They were looking to bring him in for further questioning; a shard of glass on the road and a 1/2 joint would suffice.
- relying on one kid who is CLEARLY speculating about all the news about Tyler to condemn him? Are you kidding me?? What relationship does he have to the accused? Has he been close to him for years? Is he basing his speculation on news reports?
-TW was the best man @ dad’s wedding, so they had a disagreement about some music – so what? TW would have been 16 at the time, doesn’t sound too unusual. The affidavit: according to the det., TW said he, “depises” his dad. Until we see/hear the videotaped interrogation we do not know WHAT happened, i.e. TW could have said, “I despise what my dad has done to my mom…” You are basing far too much on this one-sided interpretation.
-Many who HAVE KNOWN him for years have stated emphatically that TW was very gentle, very good with animals… By 18, wouldn’t someone that’s cruel to animals have dropped a sign or two?
- Tyler Weinman is NOT Michael Vick.
- descriptions of how the remains’ appearance gave the impression of having been done by a human and why in cases of alleged “cat mutilations” this has proven an inaccurate assessment, time and time again, has been addressed repeatedly above.
EVANGELINE: save some of your hatred for the trial.
(signing off until tonight, as in “pulling back” from the constant posting)
A footnote: Miami-Dade Animal Control stats: 50-60 cats are killed each month by cars and/or animal predators. This was posted on Mayor Flinn’s “Cat Killings” webpage (updating the community) BEFORE Tyler was arrested. The entire page has since disappeared. I have a screen shot of it that someone (not me) with good instincts thought to grab.
I would imagine that cat killings would continue after TW’s arrest based on this statement alone.