UPDATE: Tyler Hayes Weinman
COPS: SUSPECT IN MIAMI-DADE CAT KILLINGS A ‘SOCIOPATH’
by David Ovalle, The Miami Herald
In an interview with police, accused cat killer Tyler Weinman eagerly detailed how to dissect cats, even describing the ”tearing sound” made when cutting open a feline’s flesh, according to an arrest affidavit released Monday.
Miami-Dade police detectives concluded Weinman fits the bill of a “sociopath.”
The arrest affidavit, released one month after Weinman’s arrest, details a circumstantial case based on the teen’s suspicious late-night forays, cat claw scratches on his body and cryptic, disturbing comments about feline dissection.
The document reveals for the first time evidence used to arrest Weinman in a case that terrorized pet owners and generated national headlines. The warrant ”speaks for itself,” said Miami-Dade prosecutor Elijah Levitt.
Weinman, however, in initial talks with police did not acknowledge killing any of the dozens of cats found mutilated across South Miami-Dade between April and June, according to the warrant. And no eyewitnesses to the killings were cited in the document. (Click Here to view arrest affidavit)
”It’s really important to note that there is not one single witness in there that says that Tyler Weinman touched a cat — not one witness,” said David Macey, Weinman’s attorney.
Weinman, accused of slaying 19 cats in South Miami-Dade, was formally charged Monday during arraignment in Miami-Dade Circuit Court. He has pleaded not guilty.
Prosecutors made public the 10-page arrest warrant affidavit, which had been sealed because investigators were looking at other possible suspects. No further arrests have been announced.
Weinman is charged with 19 counts of felony animal cruelty, 19 counts of improperly disposing of an animal body and four counts of burglary for allegedly returning to homes to dump the cats.
Weinman is on house arrest, free on $249,500 bond. His lawyers will return to court Friday to ask a judge to return property seized by police after his arrest.
The case against Weinman could strengthen considerably; investigators are awaiting lab results on cutting tools found in searches of Weinman’s parents’ houses.
Police psychological profilers concluded the killer ”would be referred to as a sociopath” — and detectives agreed Weinman fit the description.
”I’m not exactly sure where they came up with their conclusion or their junk science but all that’s going to be proven faulty,” Macey responded.
Prosecutors charged Hayes in connection with the mutilations of 19 cats, the first found on April 28 near Weinman’s home on the 19400 block of Ridgeland Drive in Cutler Bay.
One cat was posed with a slit down the its stomach. Another was missing the top of its mouth. Another was missing genitalia. The scenes were bloodless, meaning the cats were killed elsewhere and dumped at the scenes.
Among evidence cited by prosecutors:
• On May 14 about 2 a.m., officers found him walking along Whispering Pines Road. A witness told police he saw Weinman walking and using his cell phone on the same street about an hour later — then three hours after that, another cat was found nearby.
The next night, a Miami-Dade sergeant found Weinman — clad in black, wearing a backpack — skateboarding in Cutler Bay. Weinman laughed when the sergeant suggested he keep his cats indoors.
• On May 15, officers stopped Weinman when he ran a red light in Cutler Bay. They found a ”cutting tool” he apparently threw outside his driver’s side window. The tool was impounded. Weinman was arrested for marijuana possession.
• During that arrest, officers noticed a ”prominent red-colored scratch across the right side of Weinman’s neck.” He claimed it came from feeding a stray cat at his mother’s house — he then eagerly showed detectives another scratch on his back.
”The cat climbed down my back,” Weinman told Miami-Dade Detective Dominick Columbro.
• Police attached an electronic tracking device to his car that pinpointed him in the immediate area of one killing reported June 6. A witness also told police that a suspicious black car — similar to Weinman’s — was seen casing the street as detectives pored over the crime scene. The car sped off.
• Weinman, at length, described dissecting cats, which he learned during an anatomy class at Palmetto Senior High. To police, he noted ”with excitement” that cats for dissection could only be received from Mexico, the warrant said.
During his interview, he seemed almost to be toying with investigators.
Detective Columbro asked what tools someone would use to kill cats.
”I don’t know but I’m sure they are very well-hidden,” he said.
How do you think the cats are captured, he asked.
”They either have to be tranquilized or poisoned,” Weinman replied.
While he did not admit to any cat killings, he did disclose to investigators that he ”despises” his father. In media interviews, his father and stepmother have said they own several cats.
877 Comments »
What a sick little fucker! This story makes my skin crawl!
I love these little wannabe Dahmer high school children that think they are so edgy and badass. Too bad when all the attention wears off they are still sitting jail and everyone else has moved on to the next shocker of the month.
I wonder how “edgy” and “badass” he’d feel if I whipped his ass with an equalizer of some sort?
I’m thinking baseball bat personally.
Grrrrrrrrrrr. They better find something on the “cutting tools” they found. The cops/prosecutors should know better than this. They will be hard-pressed to get a conviction based on psychological profiling and circumstantial evidence. Maybe if they had a jury trial, they could get a “gut-reaction jury”, but they will take a judge trial, and win in a heartbeat. If they find something on the tools, there is a better chance.
I am guessing that this kid did it (I assume the cat killings have stopped?), but they totally jumped the gun on this one. If the kid had a court-appointed attorney he might lose, but there is no fucking way that he will be convicted with a private lawyer. I could get him off, and I only had 2 semesters of law school, lol.
I agree. It seems like he did it, but I don’t know that I’d send him to prison for being creepy. For all anyone knows he’s lying to the police to make himself seem creepier than he really is.
As much as I’d like to see him sentenced, our country should not sentence him just because it feels right. I am sure many Innocent people would be behind bars……
The state hospitals, the asylums, need to be reopened for some of these people who fall into the gray areas….
Of course, once found guilty, our country needs to stop pussy footing and send these people to heir maker for proper judgement.
And then he’ll be back in if they don’t cure his blood-lust. He just might escalate, but that is purely speculation on my part.
Just disgusting. I’m not much of a cat lover, but all the same, they are defenseless creatures and I could never imagine hurting one!! In fact, I have 2 strays who like my garage for some reason so I put out some water and leftovers for them (which is apparently why they like my garage).
To me, this man is no different than a child abuser; hurting those who can not defend themselves. He will most certainly go back to the same sociopathic behavior when released (if he ever makes it to jail).
Look at the smug little shithead. He looks like an evil clone of Jonathon Taylor Thomas, which normally would be enough for me to not like him. His taunting of the police disgusts me, but it will be all the more satisfying when he is convicted.
He looks so calm, doesn’t he.. An innocent adult person would have some kind of pain in their eyes in his situation, let alone a kid.. being accused of something you didn’t do does that to someone who is “normal”.. There’s nothing about that face that says “I feel bad about whats gone/going on” .. No hurt, no trouble, no worry.. that look isn’t smug.. it’s blank..
If they let this kid off scott free, we’ve all got something to worry about..
maybe he just watched too much Dexter?
Here is an excerpt from Chapter 828 from the Florida Statutes
Title XLVI
CRIMES Chapter 828
ANIMALS: CRUELTY; SALES; ANIMAL ENTERPRISE PROTECTION
828.12 Cruelty to animals.–
“(1) A person who unnecessarily overloads, overdrives, torments, deprives of necessary sustenance or shelter, or unnecessarily mutilates, or kills any animal, or causes the same to be done, or carries in or upon any vehicle, or otherwise, any animal in a cruel or inhumane manner, is guilty of a misdemeanor of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or by a fine of not more than $5,000, or both.
(2) A person who intentionally commits an act to any animal which results in the cruel death, or excessive or repeated infliction of unnecessary pain or suffering, or causes the same to be done, is guilty of a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or by a fine of not more than $10,000, or both.
(a) A person convicted of a violation of this subsection, where the finder of fact determines that the violation includes the knowing and intentional torture or torment of an animal that injures, mutilates, or kills the animal, shall be ordered to pay a minimum mandatory fine of $2,500 and undergo psychological counseling or complete an anger management treatment program.”
And according to Chapter 775.082, if Tyler is convicted of a felony, he can serve a life sentence. Heck, if the jury decides that the crime fits the conditions required for a capital felony, they can suggest the death sentence. Good old Florida.
You know, instead of facts, I am going to stick to my biased opinions :)
What a weirdo. How embarassing for his parents, to have raised a total little freak who’s now famous for killing people’s pets.
My kids might have turned out fucked up in some ways, but not THAT fucked up. Thank you, God.
I hate this kid. I hardly ever say that cuz hate is such a strong word, but i HATE this kid. he should be beaten within an inch of his life, then thrown in a hungry lions cage. paybacks a bitch lil boy… you liked picking on cats, have fun being on the recieving end in jail… this kid isn’t gonna last an hour in state prison, and for that, i can smile… i just hope hes convicted.
Omg keep this kid locked up now, before he goes on to killing people….Unless he has already and we just dont know about it.
This is ridiculous, I don’t understand why he didnt automatically get a life sentence…I wish I was president.
Wow I’m surprised the little bastard got away with house arrest! For now at least. He took the lives of 19 living and breathing beings. I hope this little brat gets set to jail…let the inmates do a little dissecting of their own…( I made a funny)
Three different, fascinatingly creative concepts of opening and closing quotes in the first four paragraphs, and only one of them accurate. Who’s an article got to fuck to get some editing around here?
Well, an articles got to fuck *you* apparently, but it doesn’t want to.
So complain to the Miami Herald. I couldn’t have made it any clearer that this is a cut & paste of their article. Not that I’m above the more than occasional lapse in grammar, but it ain’t my fault this time.
Please humor us with the “true story”, Epilepsy Jones.
Oh, his parents must be *so* proud of their little sociopathic monstrosity.
You know, even if for whatever reason he is not convicted, this will follow him & haunt him for the rest of his life. Can you imagine what future girlfriends/boyfriends/friends/employers/landlords etc will think of him if they ever google his name?
Information on the internet NEVER goes away. He’s screwed, one way or another. I really hope all his torturing & senseless killing was worth it for him, because payback is coming & its gonna last a bitter lifetime.
OK, for the Max haters out there:
“Information on the internet NEVER goes away. He’s screwed, one way or another. I really hope all his torturing & senseless killing was worth it for him, because payback is coming & its gonna last a bitter lifetime.”
Naw, it won’t haunt him. The thing about sociopaths is that they don’t care, don’t feel remorse and don’t give a damn what your opinion is unless it can be used as a means of manipulation.
Sociopaths don’t have friends or girlfriends. Or if they do, they don’t really care about them anyway.
It’s the fact that he won’t actually care about any of this that makes him kinda scary.
I totally agree .. They don’t care about anything.. they’re not afraid of anything or anyone.. and given the chance, this kid WILL move on to people.. It always starts this way..
I also agree that the numbness makes him scary, but what’s even scarier than that is that somehow, these people slip by the law.. No one catches them until multiple people suffer..
If he’s not haunted by the fact that many people in the world know who he is and what he did, and what he’s capable of, at least we can be comforted by the fact that people DO know.. and at least in some way he can be watched.. THATS whats important.. If he never gets punished for what he’s done now, at least people can watch out for him.. and there’s a definate, and undeniable public record of what he’s done.. that way if anything else does go down, there are priors to reference.. The best thing about this is that he can’t hide..
Hey, this really good info & I found it quite interesting & you are absolutely correct. I guess I need to do some reading on the sociopathic personality.
I do believe though, that this publicity *will* haunt him for the rest of his life. He may not care, I never said he would, BUT, he will will certainly be inconvenienced, hassled, ridiculed, & hopefully painfully beaten to a bloody pulp at some point because of it.
True. and at least now we can make a mental bookmark of his face and name and stay away!
Sadly, I’ve known more than my fair share of sociopaths (probably bad karma), so I’ve read a lot about this personality disorder. There’s a German word that describes them very well: scheusslichkeit. The rough translation is ABOMINATION. Think of them as komodo dragons dressed up as human beings – usually very charming, attractive and intelligent (on the surface at least).
They can’t feel guilt, pain, remorse, or love. So the best way to hurt or punish them is to discern what they value most (social standing, money, attention, etc.) and then take it away from them. Mr. Weinman really enjoys attention, so it’s too bad we can’t permanently lock him in solitary at a Supermax facility.
Of course, coating him in honey & hanging him upside down by the balls in the Everglades would be quite entertaining.
I can’t believe his parents put up the bail money…HA HA HA, I wish he were my kid, he’d rot with no bail put up & a 2nd class public defender. In fact, I probably wouldn’t even go to court, except maybe to tell the judge to put him away for a very, very long time.
How blind can parents be?
Teenager!!! He is a sick adult. why call him a teenager when he is legally a man. Being called a teenager makes one think he’s some cute 14-15 yr old-NOT!! He’s a psycho in the making. wonder if he had used a gun and shot at people and say lived some where else would he still be called a teenager and not what he is, a man who did what he did and he should be punished as such.
Also the word “sick” – NOT
EVIL – Yes
“Vile” is a good description. “Twisted”, “Depraved”, and “Demented” are also good terms…
I agree. I was just not as ambitious as you.
Fred, I’m flattered… You think I’m ambitious! Most of the time I get “not as arrogant as you” or “not as pompous as you” but ambitious? I like that… I will add it to my self-description “arrogant, narrow-minded, sadistic, ambitious prick.” Has a nice ring to it.
I was saying that you are ambitious because you had come up with so many other words for evil……
No I do not think this POS is ambitious….. ambition is usually associated with something constructive and he is clearly not that.
I was accepting the compliment with satyre and sarcasm. :) It’s what I do.
Wow, I’d like to smack that cocky look right off of his face. I hope he gets corn-holed on a daily basis by Bubba…
Ha when I worked in a prison one thing I learned is almost all of the inmates loved the animals that found their way into the grounds and would punish any inmate that attempted to hurt the stray cats, the ground squirrels, and such so I hope Jr goes to a real prison and finds out he ain’t so touch when surrounded with bad boys who like animals-my clerk was a gang banger with about 4 drug murders to his name but he loved the stray cats that wandered in-love to see this kid meet up with him……..
Yeah, I found this quote interesting: “In an interview with police, accused cat killer Tyler Weinman eagerly detailed how to dissect cats, even describing the ”tearing sound” made when cutting open a feline’s flesh”.
I’m curious what sound little Tyler would make if we did the same to him?
This kid reminds me of the middle son from Home Improvement, but a sick twisted psycho version. I know that a lot of this case hinges on circumstances, but I find it hard to believe he didn’t do because of the interview he gave to police. If he didn’t do these horrific killings, then he damn sure didn’t convince people he didn’t do when “In an interview with police, accused cat killer Tyler Weinman eagerly detailed how to dissect cats, even describing the ”tearing sound” made when cutting open a feline’s flesh, according to an arrest affidavit released Monday.” As I sit here holding my little black kitty that my husband found in Texas and drove home to me all the way in Florida, I am thankful that my husband found him so we could give him a safe & loving home. He still likes to nip/bite at you and scratch up my leather high back reading chairs, but he’ll grow out of the niping/biting and the chairs need to be recovered anyway. He damn sure doesn’t deserve to be killed for stupid little things like this. It just breaks my heart to think about what those 19 poor defenseless cats endured. One thing that just kills me to think about is the fact that these cats were probably coaxed to go with him lovingly, so they trusted him not to hurt them. Cats and dogs are the most loving creatures in the world once you win their trust and the fact that someone can be that demented just makes me want to personally string them up!
“…way in Florida, I am thankful that my husband found him so we could give him a safe & loving home. He still likes to nip/bite at you and scratch up my leather high back reading chairs”
You are far more saintly a person then I ever could be. I hope he turns into an awesome cat. =)
Ironically, I was just watching that MSNBC reality program that goes into the prisons and makes me scream with lauphter every minute I watch, so it is impossible for me to watch a single episode to the end…
Anyway the last time I watched they were at a prison where they give the convicts, even the ones on death row, therapy cats. It realy sucks for the cats- they have to wear a leash in the prisoners cell- so life sucks for the cats too.
My suspicion is that the cats behind bars are just another piece of rape meat like everyone else once the lights go out anyway.
I only let loose when I’ve had a few, well, alot too many down the hatch… If you know what I mean. ;)
I think the last time I got really plastered was the night before I deployed. I had twelve shots of tequila (takillya as I say) blacked out and woke up in Kuwait with my face plastered to my buddy’s shirt. I guess I fell asleep on his shoulder and drooled all over him. Poor guy.
NavyCop…hope this shows where it should.
Yes, unfortunately, I’m also Irish, which kicks my swearing up to a whole new level. :)
Thanks for serving as well..you have my utmost respect and gratitude for your sacrifice to this fine country.
Aw, now I’m blushing. I do what I can. I prefer to work hard sending the boys home, you know? I did the Customs Mission in Kuwait with NAVELSG Battalion Hotel. It was hot as balls in the customs tent, but it was worth it. I also did convoys to the airport with my best-buddy, Chewy (hairy like chewbacca, I swear, ugly s.o.b., too.) We had ICP blaring just to piss off the Muslims >:)
Well, you have done well, and again I appreciate anyone who serves and serves well. I will refrain from getting political on this site, and am neither a democrat or a republican…however, I absolutely adore our boys who serve and support them 100%.
Insane Clown Posse…lmao. Oh man, I grew up in Michigan, and they used to be pretty huge in Detroit. Not sure if they’re actually from there.
Hey Max! Why are comments posting wherever they want? That’s two I’ve had post in the wrong spot…
Some comments were deleted so the parent child relationship of some comments was also “orphaned”. Those orphaned comments aren’t placing well. It’s a reported bug in the WordPress architecture.
Oh, because I was trying to reply to Maelstrom… But thanks for the explaination, Jason. One of the best and brightest, you are.
Dream on…as much as he deserves a long jail sentence he’s never going to see one…until he kills a person. As horrible and cruel as it is you’re going to be surprised when you see just how lightly the courts are going to slap this sick little boy on the wrist, especially considering the fact that he obviously comes from a wealthy family who can affor the 250 grand bail to keep his little disgusting ass free. Nobody with any authority to punish this creep is going to do so…bet on it. Judges are by and large corrupt evil people who keep the escort services and BDSM parlours in business and are probably secretly titillated by what this kid did….and cops are little more than hardened bullies with a badge who beat their own wives and kids so don’t they care about a cat either…No I’m afraid compassionate people are set to endure yet ANOTHER injustice at the hands of a jaded, callous and perverted US “justice” system.
Forensic Investigation of Animal Cruelty: A Guide for Veterinary and Law Enforcement Professionals by Leslie Sinclair, D.V.M., Melinda Merck, D.V.M., and Randall Lockwood, Ph.D. Two of the book’s three authors are with the ASPCA®(The American Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals®).
The authors, two veterinarians and a psychologist with years of clinical experience in veterinary forensics are acknowledged experts in their fields. Leslie Sinclair, D.V.M., is a forensics investigations and veterinary services consultant in Columbia, Md. Melinda Merck, D.V.M., and Randall Lockwood, Ph.D., are both with the ASPCA; Dr. Merck as a veterinary forensics consultant, and Dr. Lockwood as senior vice president for Anti-Cruelty Initiatives and Legislative Services.
The book is a comprehensive introduction to the emerging field of veterinary forensic investigation. Forensic science has gained popularity over the years due to evidential success in high profile criminal trials as well as in the public’s mind through television shows such as CSI: Crime Scene Investigation. Much like their counterparts in the human medical and science fields, veterinarians have a key role to play in recognizing and addressing animal abuse cases.
For example, in 2003, Dr. Lockwood assisted Salt Lake City and Denver area law enforcement officials in investigating the deaths of dozens of cats found dead over several months that summer. Forensics work helped lead officials to conclude the cats had likely been killed by animal predators and not a human killer. This year, Drs. Lockwood and Merck conducted a similar investigation for officials in Spokane, Washington, again proving that cat deaths there were also the work of predators.
http://www.aspca.org/pressroom/press-releases...
Can it get any clearer??
Can what get any clearer? The cases you mentioned in your next post, and all the lovely facts you’ve posted in this one, have very little to do with this case. There were, in fact, many more cat mutilations during that May-June period, but police ruled out almost all of them as dog attacks. The 19 they were left with were unquestionable NOT animal mutilations. It was because of the cases you mentioned that Miami cops were so careful. So, please, don’t try and muddy the water with a whole lot of facts that have no relation to Tyler Weinman’s case. It’s an old trick that lawyers use all the time, and it isn’t going to work in here – not today anyways.
Excellent post, Max. “DueProcess” has been posting all over the internet and making a fool of herself. She posts on facebook as “georgia view” and on topix and others as “fedupmedia”, etc… She spends the majority of her time posting 5-10 comments for every comment anyone else posts that doesnt see it her way. Shes been harassing people for weeks now. Of course the 19 cats were killed by a human. Tyler Weinman is that human. There are many more that could be Tyler but if they werent 100% sure it was a human kill, they left it off the charges. The 19 left are indeed human kills. Ignore the wingnut. Shes a 75 yr old crazy lady who needs a hobby.
Thanks claude, I appreciate that. We have a lot of experience with people like DueProcess here. I wish I had a dollar for every friend/family member of some of the people we’ve done stories on who tried to defend them with arguments that make defy logic and “facts” that are really just gossip and rumor. What DueProcess didn’t realize when she made her comments was that when I wrote this story, an important part of my research was centered on whether there was any chance the dead cats that Weinman got pinched for could be the result of animal attacks. Obviously, this was probably the worst place she could have picked to post this nonsense, and she’ll find that if she continues to annoy us, there are a lot of very intelligent people – all of them much smarted than me – who will have a great time handing her ass to her on a silver platter. You seem pretty sharp yourself, so feel free to join in the festivities if you want – the more the merrier.
BTW, thanks for the background information. She sounds like someone we just went back and forth with in the Tiffany Toribio thread. 1776_Observer also posted his drivel all over the Internet – in fact, I found one case where he just cut and pasted an old comment from another website and re-used it here. He was a special guy alright – LOL. Maybe we can hook him up with DueProcess. They both seem to have a lot of time on their hands and could probably use the companionship of another warm body.
While Eugenics has been discredited, can we please avoid tempting fate? If what they have is heritable, I wouldn’t wish it on my worst enemy.
Thanks for the welcome. I’ve been here b4 reading other stories and this one. The other was some gal names Jody who killed her boyfriend. I cant think of her last name at the moment but they are both mormon and were hawking some prepaid legal aid business or something along those lines. Have never posted b4. You guys seem to have things well in hand. Good job, btw.
You’re right, wouldn’t want to muddy the waters with scientific fact, actual articles, or anything crazy like that. Tell me MTC – where can I get one of those crystals balls you’re relying on to determine guilt before there has been any EVIDENCE/PROOF?? Maybe you’ve posted links to articles by respectable experts, grounded in objectivity and I just haven’t waded deep enough into the muck to find them? (nothing scarier than folks who, having their minds made up, refuse to expose themselves to reasonable explanations based on reality.)
Can you handle a little challenge to your preconceived ideas? Read the quotes again, if you dare:
“Lockwood, whose book, Forensic Investigation of Animal Cruelty: A Guide for Veterinary and Law Enforcement Professionals, will be released next year [pub. 2004, co-authored w/Melinda Merck], says wounds from wild predators often appear to be human-caused, even to trained eyes.
“The two phrases that always turn up are ‘cut with surgical precision’ and ‘drained of blood,’ ” Lockwood says. “These are very common with predator kills. The cuts look clean, and it bleeds out very quickly.
“People expect to find, if an animal has been killed by a predator, that it’s ripped apart, lying in a pool of blood. That’s not what you find. As wounds are cleaned by insects, natural bodily processes take over and the wounds tend to take on a slick, smooth appearance, looking as if they were done with a knife. People overlook the fact that the canine teeth of predators are, in essence, knives, and they leave a very clean cut.”
http://www.lakecityreporter.com/articles/2003/07/18/news/local/news02.txt
Randall Lockwood, vice president of research and educational outreach of the Humane Society of the United States and co-author of a soon-to-be-released book (2004 Animal Forensics book, co-authored w/ Melinda Merck!) that will guide police and veterinarians in investigating animal-cruelty cases.
————
Law enforcement in Miami-Dade really screwed this one up, but I can’t blame them totally – the ignorant elected officials pushed them to “do something!” Even they must be starting to realize — oops — everyone else who has done testing (pathology) in these cases of “cat mutilation” found out that animals did it… OMG! what do we do now??? Do the tests M-D, then do the mea culpa.
PS: hi Ricky ;)
To DueProcess:
I think you’re miss-characterizing Lockwood’s conclusions and briefs. He’s much more prolific in his admission of animal cruelty and the attacks on animals than he is on the false positive examples you’ve presented. As a statement of intent, he praises the sort of investigation that is pursuing cases like the one the defendant is engaged in.
“…The research reinforces what most police officers and the general public already believe—that those who intentionally hurt animals are not [otherwise] good, law-abiding citizens. Today we have a public that is more willing to report animal cruelty, police who are more willing to respond and prosecutors who are responsive to the strong public interest in seeing these cases taken seriously. In the case of young offenders, there is also the recognition that responding to such acts may provide the best opportunity for intervention in the life of an offender at a time when such action is most likely to be effective.”
–Interview With Randal Lockwood March 2007
http://advocacy.britannica.com/blog/advocacy/2007/03/randall-lockwood/
Randall Lockwood isn’t an advocate of ignoring cases of animal attacks, he’s an advocate of clear identification. Luckily he wrote the veritable bible on the topic, a book studied at Veterinary schools the world over. Given that the police possess both trained forensic teams and specifically employed Veterinarians in this case, it should be reasonable to even you that your argument is specious and far fetched.
Your argument seems to stress that 2 neighborhoods where Tyler lived were suffering animal attacks that were specifically targeting cats that were confused with attacks with humans. You seem to be stressing that what is at best “difficult” to believe is easier to believe than similar attacks with a common element aren’t related when added to the legal tracking of the suspect. A better argument would be that because Tyler’s incarceration did not stop the attacks (there were two while he was in custody), there might be some suspicion that they have the wrong man, but the police argue Tyler has an accomplice or accomplices, as outlined in the addendum of the affidavit.
Your presentation of Randall Lockwood’s book is spotty, disingenuous and less than complete. A thorough reading of the first few pages of that book would suggest that “dismissal” of an investigation on conjecture is not the pursuit of someone who is fascinated with the forensic process of research. Your expert is not as firmly(or even approaching) in your court as you claim.
Hehe – I waiting to see how long it takes DueProcess to respond to this comment Jason. I don’t think she has it in her myself. You basically smashed the entirety of her argument. Since I trashed her theory about the about the police not bothering to hire real experts, where DOES she go from here?
Oh ye of little faith Maxwell Kitty.
She will be back. People like this have such a burning need for attention and drama that they can’t stay away no matter how stupid they sound. You know it as well as I.
Her next reply will probably be an insulting attack on anyone but Jason. Unlike a certain paper-fastener troll who shall remain nameless (can we PLEASE ban him, please please, please????) this one is probably not stupid enough to take on Jason. Jason is the guy I would LEAST like to see posting under my name (unless it was to tell me how great I am, lol).
It was for the particular points he made, quoted in the article I cited:
“The two phrases that always turn up are ‘cut with surgical precision’ and ‘drained of blood,’ ” Lockwood says. “These are very common with predator kills. The cuts look clean, and it bleeds out very quickly.
“People expect to find, if an animal has been killed by a predator, that it’s ripped apart, lying in a pool of blood. That’s not what you find. As wounds are cleaned by insects, natural bodily processes take over and the wounds tend to take on a slick, smooth appearance, looking as if they were done with a knife. People overlook the fact that the canine teeth of predators are, in essence, knives, and they leave a very clean cut.”
This is the identical terminology used in S. Fl, (CO, UT, KS, TX, NY, Lauderhill. FL, even Miami-Dade.)
What I am positing is that while the majority has assumed human involvement based on the “appearance” of the remains, it is precisely the fact that they are described as such (“cut with ‘surgical precision,” “drained of blood,” etc) that lends credence to the “animal predation” possibility.
By Dr. Lockwood’s own words, these cases give the strong *impression* of human involvement however, when the pathologists look closer, no such evidence exists, rather they find (in case after case) evidence of the razor sharp canine teeth of one animal predator or another.
I have maintained, consistently, wherever I have posted on this story, that all Miami-Dade has to do is run the tests, and that if they have done so, they should release the results immediately.
Question: if the tests have been completed, and if they support LE’s theory, then why haven’t they been released as yet? That’s a fair question, don’t you think?
“Question: if the tests have been completed, and if they support LE’s theory, then why haven’t they been released as yet? That’s a fair question, don’t you think”
Ummmm DP? You are new at this, aren’t you? Why wouldn’t LE release the information? Because that’s what a TRIAL is for. Because convictions have been overturned when information was released and was later determined to have impacted the jury. Because they don’t NEED to release that information.
I would flip your question around and say that the fact that charges have not been dropped would reinforce the idea that they have pretty good evidence based on the tests.
You, for all your complaining about the media, apparently have forgotten that trials are not held in the court of public opinion. We have no right to discovery, that is a benefit afforded exclusively to the participants in the case – the state and the defendant.
MtC — “…The 19 they were left with were unquestionable NOT animal mutilations. It was because of the cases you mentioned that Miami cops were so careful….”
Really? I’m impressed! Cops in Miami-Dade are more qualified in animal forensics than vets, animal control specialists, (all of whom have later been proved wrong in these cases)? Wow, I didn’t realize.
Unless they have farmed the work out to pathologists – the ONLY ONES QUALIFIED – and released scientific results which support the “human cruelty” charges and I somehow missed it? Because, apparently, even a majority of vets make the same mistake, assuming human involvement BEFORE the pathology reports and then, uh oh…. ANIMAL PREDATION.
Look! Up in the air! Miami-Dade SUPER COPS: able to leap to conclusions in a single bound, able to discern *cause* where lesser humans have failed — pathology tests? HA! Who needs ‘em? We have SUPER VISION! (& don’t go talking about animal forensic experts like Merck and Lockwood — what do they know? I laugh in the face of their expertise and experience! HA HA!)
Lady, the Miami police got those exact same experts that you take so much relish in quoting to make the determinations of whether or not the cats were killed by animals or not. I’m sorry that they forgot to inform you of that, but I think it’s safe to assume that a city as big as Miami can afford to hire the kind of experts you have based your entire ridiculous argument on. But no, let’s go with YOUR idea – that the Miami PD has no experience with forensics and didn’t get the best people available for a high-profile case like this one.
And acting like a raving lunatic only makes you look foolish, and completely undermines your arguement. How can you expect anyone to take you seriously if you behave like the village idiot?
You’re going to have to do a lot better than this if you think you’re going to make me look bad – Like I told claude, I REALLY did my homework before I wrote this article. Your first effort has been very dissapointing.
Actually, this response was meant for the Max, but Claude can respond to it, too if he likes ;)
MtC, “…the Miami police got those exact same experts that you take so much relish in quoting to make the determinations of whether or not the cats were killed by animals or not.”
So far, all you’ve done is blown smoke. At least I post credible information, with links to verify their suppositions. What do you have? More assumptions, this time about what I *will/would do* based again, I presume, on your incredible instincts??
You’ve stated, emphatically, that Miami-Dade has conducted the scientific testing, that they “relied on the experts” in their determination of which cats were killed by animals and which by a person. Really?
Post the link to that news flash. Post anything that makes your case. Then, like in an actual debate, we’ll take our opposing views toe-to-toe. No, you’d rather just tell me how wrong I am… based on?? Surprise me.
(why do so many of you spend so much time denouncing anyone that brings a contrary point of view? is there some “conformity code,” to post here? lol)
Show me the proof that they didn’t. All you have are assumptions, while I’m going by sources that I’ve promised to keep anonymous. I’m sure YOU won’t believe it, but everyone else here knows my reputation for going to just about any lengths to get the information I need. Take a look at the Elyse Mamino threads and you might get an idea about what I’m talking about. I’ve used the phone to my advantage many times, and you’d be surprised what people will tell you if you have a reputation for keeping your word and promise to keep them anonymous. While I don’t know the specifics, I can guarantee you that Miami PD did exactly as I said. Yes, I’m an amateur, but I’m a VERY GOOD amateur.
You, on the other hand, are an arrogant, self righteous fool with delusions of grandeur, and I’m making it my mission to expose you for the fraud that you are. You’re an embarrassment to people like me, people who believe things like truth and honor actually mean something. To us, the truth trumps everything, even if it means we sometimes discover things that compel us to admit we’re wrong – To you, the truth is a minor inconvenience that often interferes with your goal of proving to everyone that you were right all along.
So far, despite the grandiose claims of “reputation,” all you’ve impressed me w/is what a pompous a$$ you are.
You know nothing about me, yet you make all these pronouncements regarding my motivations, dismissing the possibility that I actually seek truth for noble reasons. Is it really so hard to understand that I might be disgusted with the mentality that eats up the garbage spewed out by the media? That I might be sick of how media carries water for the state with no concern for truth… guilt or innocence mean nothing to these lackeys who ask NOT THE FIRST question to discover inherent biases in the “reports” they are given… no, profit is all, who gives a damn if anyone gets hurt in the process!
The leaps, the accusations, the grand assumptions you’ve made about me all underscore your inability to remain objective. You have everyone, and everything all “figured out.,” or at least you have portrayed yourself in this way.
Ever think that your “sources” have their own self interest guiding them, ever doubt their veracity? See, I’m ASKING, not assuming… perhaps you have wondered, but like the “members of the media” you might think it’s worth the risk? Maybe you have such tremendous confidence in your ability to discern truth that you doubt you could be deceived…?
Here’s why I post on this story: Too many have swallowed whole every “press release” from the very people w/a vested interest in portraying a particular theory. That makes me suspicious. The hatred and venom directed at one young man BEFORE anything has been provided even resembling verifiable evidence, makes me ill. It causes me to fear for America… What have we become?
If we rely on “news” for information, we will get a select version, that’s why I dig deeper, that’s why I research what the real experts have to say and give little credence to the *entertainment news experts.” All paid, all self-interested. Where are the investigative journalists? Why isn’t anyone asking any questions?
I also am fully aware that we can’t know anyone’s guilt or innocence before a trying of the facts… and that’s why it’s so damn important to totally lean on the protections of the presumption of innocence, etc. If we don’t fight for these all important rights now, we might not be able to later.
So, you don’t like Tyler. So what. I will fight for his rights to a fair trial because I desire to preserve those rights for myself, for my family if we ever have need of them. Just so happens that in doing so I have learned a great deal about what pathologists have discovered about these so-called “mutilation” cases. It’s happened all over the country, the lingo describing the remains is IDENTICAL, the absolute only difference I’ve found? Miami-Dade is the only community that failed to do the testing before moving on an arrest. I happen to believe that once they have done it, they too will see what every other one of these communities have seen. Am I not entitled to this well-researched opinion?
And now to prove how full of it you really are…
“July 6th, 2009
Miami-Dade Officials:
-dismiss the case/drop the charges (having now seen the affidavit which you sought to conceal and finding that you did not even have “probable cause” for the arrest; it’s the right thing to do)
-run the tests (forensic testing of the remains),
-if it is found that a “person” wasn’t even involved in these “killings,” announce the findings via “press conference.”
-restore Tyler’s name: clear these charges from his record. (seek to have vile websites dedicated to destroying his reputation, removed)
-pursue those who have threatened his life
-FIRE the County Commissioner who made the despicable comments about Tyler early on, which helped to fan the flames. To wit: “…[Tyler Weinman is] twisted and depraved, somehow really not right as a human being.” – Katy Sorenson, Miami-Dade County Commisioner (to her everlasting shame.)
Have the courage to set things right, THEN you will have restored some of the damage caused to your city’s image by what appears to have been a rush to judgment.”
Seems like someone doesn’t want him to have a trial after all.
Due Process, I am going to go easy on you here. Don’t take advantage of it, because I am not a nice person when I get annoyed.
I agree with much of what you have written. I am not sure that this kid is guilty, and I am almost certain that he will get off unless there is compelling physical evidence that he is guilty. I also agree with people being spoon-fed by a lazy media with an agenda. I don’t know about human vs. animal kills, but that’s not for me to decide. That’s why we have trials and juries and judges. If Max says that thought was considered though, it’s good enough for me until the trial.
But here is the problem. It’s YOU. Or rather, how you came onto this board posting with a HUGE chip on your shoulder and a nasty-ass attitude. You expected a fight, your prepped for it and you set it up. And anyone can see it by tracking your posts.
People here are willing to listen to a well thought-out argument. Trust me, I know – I am often the only voice of dissent in a story, and I have NEVER had anyone attack me for my opinion. I have been ignored, sure, but when I am ignored, I don’t come back screaming and insulting everyone and their brother. I just hope that I have given people another possibility to chew on.
You really need to think about what you are doing. If you are trying to impact people, quiet resolve is much more influential than swinging virtual fists.
And stop insulting Max. He is a damned good guy, who works his ass off for this site. You are guaranteed to piss off a whole bunch of people if you go after him.
One thing you need to learn is that just because you say something out loud doesn’t make it true. You ask us to judge you by you words. We prefer to look at your actions instead. Jason and I have trashed your entire argument, yet you persist in arguing the same tired points. I’ve told you I based my conclusions of facts that didn’t come from newspaper articles, but you insist “Too many have swallowed whole every ‘press release’ ”
Now you ask us to believe that you have some patriotic motivation. Honestly, if instead of insulting our intelligence with the weak evidence you brought to the table you made this the focus of your argument, I probably would have given you the benefit of the doubt and stayed out of this discussion. Believe it or not, I respect people who have opinions that are not the status quo. But I resent people who challenge my hard work with bogus theories and half truths, and that’s exactly what you did. And I’m the kind of guy who calls them like I see them – if that makes me a pompous ass, so be it. At least I can say I’ve never tried to convince people I was right in any of my stories – I present my evidence and let the reader draw his own conclusion. Do I get angry sometimes at some of the more heinous crimes I’ve written about, and editorialize more than I should – sure I do, but not in this case. I even stated in my original story on Weinman:
“I waited a few days to write this story, because I wanted to take my time and wade through all the bullshit that’s out there about this case. I also wanted to be comfortable in my conclusions, because if the cops are wrong about this kid, his life is ruined.”
So you see, I’m wasn’t out to hang Tyler Weinman, I was intent on finding out the truth. And I did the best I could, without relying on the media or police reports or others who have a vested interest in convicting SOMEONE. I take what I do here seriously – What bothers me about people like yourself with an agenda is you are only interested in proving your point. The truth always seems to take a back seat to that.
Claude – I stand by every word posted, which you have copy/pasted here. Read my “claims” carefully. (Based on the affidavit they sought to conceal… if the tests come back w/evidence that wild animals are to blame… etc.) If the tests are done and they prove human involvement, if ANY physical evidence is returned that provides proof of Tyler’s involvement in these deaths, you can check back to see what I have to say at that point. I’m not hiding anything I write.
(comments in response to Mazzi, and Max to follow)
Mazzi — I appreciate your thoughtful words of advice. I “cut my teeth” on the Topix thread and was floored by the venomous rage. I was told I should grow a thicker skin. I did. Perhaps, since this is a site that selects candidates for HELL, I might have assumed incorrectly that those posting hatred toward the accused in this case had, jumped the gun… I don’t think I was too far off. (cont.)
Mazzi cont. As for “attacking Max,” I have exercised my right to self-defense only. If someone disagrees, no problem, but at least have the courtesy to do so with some civility. I will reciprocate. (Jason’s post and my response is a fair example.) I will not spout off on anything I don’t know about, and am always interested in a fair hearing for all sides, but I have been attacked from the moment I first posted here, and initially, I had only posted two articles which I thought very relevant.
In any case Mazzi, point taken. I’m willing to call a truce and have some intelligent debate, but if people are going to come out teeth bared, insulting me personally, I’m going to respond. Is that unreasonable?
MAX:
When you came at me both barrels firing, after posting two articles I thought were important information to add to the discussion, how was I supposed to react? Shrink and cry? If you disagree, if you have “sources” that have inside information, then you are head and shoulders above the many others who have spewed hatred base soley on the crap we’ve seem on TV, read in the news, etc. IMO, it is inexcusable to vent such blind hatred WITHOUT any evidence. I stand by this. If you have info that no one else is privy to, then it will come out as the case progresses. Until then, all the rest of us can go on is eating the garbage “out there” or stepping back and digging a little deeper for ourselves. I chose the latter, not having an inside scoop.
Think beyond the chain gun response.
You fired out, what you felt was a polished argument that had weathered the storm of other websites and postings. The problem is that it came off as an arrogant ignorance of the audience you were posting to.
I don’t always think these people are guilty. I think Tyler is guilty for a very specific set of reasons, and I’ll post them so you can go over them, but my point is that you came here swinging a very big chip on your shoulder from a lot of other arguments. It came off like you were a relative. We’ve made jokes about the kind of posts we get from relatives. They follow a formula. If you’d opened up with the doggerel about Judge not, lest ye also be judged, I think you’d have never recovered from the flames. There is a way to penetrate the hardened hearts here, liberal, conservative, independent, angry or otherwise, and I’ve actually been swayed by it a few times, only to discover that the persuasive speech didn’t have all of the facts.
Step 1: Present your opinion (“I think he’s innocent because I think there actually is an animal causing all of these killings”)
Step 2: Declare your baggage(“I’ve been fighting about this on the Internet for over a week, and I’m a little shell shocked from the flames”
Step 3: Present your new evidence (“There are these articles I found from the ASPCA and this noted Veterinarian who wrote the main textbook for Animal Forensics that seems to suggest it’s too easy to confuse canine bites and natural predation with human attacks. Here’s the short snippet in quotes that I think says it best, notice sharp and surgical precision. You can read the rest of the article here.”)
Step 4: concede your reservations (“He might be guilty, but I think he’s being railroaded because of political pressure. I don’t think he’s getting a fair shake at this because there’s a greater impetus to prosecute him than to do good detective work”)
Step 5: Ask leading questions that help to establish a dialog. (“Does anyone here have any more information on this that might help me shed some light? Anyone have any pictures?”)
Step 6: Recognize that we’re mostly amateurs and real people and that some of us have sources that you could only dream of and maybe you have sources we could only dream of. (“My brother is a Vet and he saw… blah blah blah.”
You came on strong, dictated what we should all know and assumed it was unassailable. Nothing says come and climb all over your “shit” like a sign that says “don’t walk on the grass.” Nothing weakens an argument more than a lie or half-truth, but an arrogant argument is a close second.
I think there’s a case here, but probably not in the animal attack conversation you’re choosing. If it were me, I’d have focused on the 2 deaths AFTER he was in custody.
I think the article you cited was a good one in 2004, but is much weaker post 2007 and having read the portion of the intro to the book cited, and then perusing the index of that same text book. While I was at it I IM’d my friend who graduated from the Vet school at NCSU a few years ago and she said, “yeah, that’s one of my text books. You don’t really get past that one. We all read it or have used it for research,”
That was my ace in the hole. Step number 7. Is plan for your next post. I planned on using that and a few other tidbits in retaliation for whatever you might choose to say next.
Jason, thanks for the pointers and the time taken for advise.
Copying from your post:
”I think he’s innocent because I think there actually is an animal causing all of these killings”
”I’ve been fighting about this on the Internet for over a week, and I’m a little shell shocked from the flames” (Topix was a nightmare!)
”There are these articles I found from the ASPCA and this noted Veterinarian who wrote the main textbook for Animal Forensics that seems to suggest it’s too easy to confuse canine bites and natural predation with human attacks. Here’s the short snippet in quotes that I think says it best, notice sharp and surgical precision. You can read the rest of the article here.”
”He might be guilty, but I think he’s being railroaded because of political pressure. I don’t think he’s getting a fair shake at this because there’s a greater impetus to prosecute him than to do good detective work”
One thing about me, I learn fast. I’m not afraid to stand up for myself, and names don’t hurt me, but I can say that I definitely experience shell shock posting @ the only other open forum I’ve ventured on to. I didn’t especially intend to carry that defensiveness over here, but I think I was “fully prepared” for battle once the attacks started. In any case, in just the few exchanges this evening it’s be made evident that here I am dealing with intelligent people who can actually “debate” the issues.
Tomorrow’s a new day. Truce?
Next lesson I suppose.
Never hand someone a loaded gun.
These 19 attacks were specifically culled from the 63 original attacks because they were definitively proven to be human attacks not easily confused with animal attacks. While I’ll concede that with a number like 19, even some of those could have bad lab work or poor identification, I don’t think it’s reasonable to say, after they ruled less than a 1/3rd of the total attacks were valid that it’s reasonable to say that anything short of a 1/3rd of those remaining were anything short of full blown human attacks without discounting entirely that they know how to investigate crimes. This becomes a system of proof and disproof where you’d be arguing for total incompetence on the part of law enforcement, which while mildly amusing in the Dukes of Hazzard, is less than reasoned. They do catch criminals from time to time and they did have a budget on this case to at the very least discuss the cases with practicing Vets and they do have pathologists on lab staff. Assuming they didn’t us lab staff for this case is unreasonable.
These 19 attacks were connected with Tyler’s travel route through two means of tracking his location–cell phone locus tracking, a commonly used and admissible evidence trail and physical and electronic tailing of the suspect to the scenes of crimes. Tyler was homed in on because the police had the two prior arrests for marijuana. That was reasonable cause to put him under surveillance and the fact they busted him a third time in May makes an attack on that surveillance or the term “rail-roading” moot. You can argue that he’s not the cat killer, but he was in possession of an illegal substance and committing crimes–arguably smaller or less severe than cat killing.
The police had experience with Tyler so they pursued him. I think it’s reasonable to argue that an 18 year-old living part-time lives between his two parents aren’t able to grow their own marijuana–Tyler had one marijuana possession charge. Additionally, normally sociopaths are rarely able to group with other sociopaths at such a young age, but since the police stress their may be an accomplice, you might argue that Tyler knows who the cat killer actually is and is in fact the cat killer’s friend–and is hiding him.
If Tyler knew who the cat killer was, why the special conversation about the “sound of tearing skin” that cats make? That was something Tyler volunteered. That’s neither defensive or reasonable in the context of the investigation. Could it be that Tyler is emulating a specific Hollywood icon for the police and public? This toying conversation with the police is a tactic of several TV and Movie personalities, most in part based on the Silence of the Lamb supporting character, Hannibal Lecter. Hannibal Lecter is a literary pastiche of serial killers. He’s the Russian cannibal Andrei Chikatilo (arrested and tried shortly before the movie The Silence of the Lambs came out), he’s the smiling Ted Bundy, and the reasonable sounding Jeffrey Dahlmer, fencing with the court while fully admitting his acts and something much more larger than life–a sociopath who is smarter than everyone else. Why embrace those stereotypical icons unless Tyler wanted to be thought of as something Dexter like? Someone who was capable of these crimes?
But Sociopaths are noted for their weaknesses. There’s documented evidence that sociopaths have difficulty organizing their thoughts. There’s a medical and psychological evaluation whereby a sociopath can be modeled and that model is being applied to Tyler–even though I’m betting Tyler’s attorney is going to avoid the EEG/CT scan that might help confirm the diagnosis.. Tyler’s a young, impressionable kid who suddenly started verbally fencing with the police, adding an intensity and disturbing attitude before he finally shut up? Perhaps this is what Tyler “thinks” he should be doing in this case. Something he thinks he should be doing because he’s personally guilty or wants to brag to the other party when he gets out of jail.
If you think Tyler’s innocent, can you provide a reason for all of the fishy behavior? When it comes to court, they don’t need a pile of physical evidence to convict him. If they manage to bring forth enough circumstantial evidence (admissible in court) and pile on things like the actual interview tape, it’s going to be hard for a jury not to see Tyler as the culprit when he plays games with the arresting officers. That stereotype is going to live in at least 8 of those jurors. It’s why you have such an uphill battle here, because Tyler isn’t acting like an innocent when he does these things. He’s acting like a punk who thinks he knows what he’s doing.
Jason, yes, I would like to tackle the challenges you’ve thrown down, I too have consider each of these claims. Will post my response in parts 1(a-d) to 7, at the current bottom of this TW thread.
Jason, finally responding to your post (above). Think we’ve covered most of it so I’m just going to address the one point that you have stated is a big obstacle for you, the “tearing sound” comment. Not sure whether this is a re-post, but here’s a ‘hypothetical’ scenario re: that first interrogation:
Detective: I understand you took dissection classes in High School, is that right Tyler? and that you actually had to dissect a cat? Tell me what that was like… you’re right it does sound pretty gross! What was the worst part of the dissection, for you? (TW talks about several things that he didn’t like about the dissection class, mentions the awful sound, the det. pushes this point wanting more “detail” than Tyler has offered, …Tyler struggles for a better description, maybe offers “I don’t know, it’s just a gross sound…it made me feel sick to my stomach,” detective pushes more, several descriptions are dismissed, until Tyler says “tearing” and that’s that…) Must have been hard, especially since you said you like cats… Tell me more? Where do they get cats for dissection? (Tyler relates what his teacher told the class about Mexico, etc.)… your obviously an intelligent guy Tyler, any idea who might be killing these cats? (TW has no idea) Okay, but with your experience dissecting cats (TW interjects that he’s only dissected one cat, in biology class), detective: sure but at least you have some knowledge in this area so maybe you can help me figure this thing out? … how do you think someone would even go about mutilating these cats? what kind of tools would they need to make the kind of cuts we’ve found? (Tyler doesn’t know, offers a meaningless guess)
Perhaps TW’s eagerness was from his mistaken belief that the detective finally believed him, that he just wanted Tyler to help him somehow, maybe the detective made him feel like a buddy and the compliments were a little nice… Tyler even relates to his “new friend” that he love cats, that he’s been so concerned about all the ‘cat killer’ news that he joined a FB group to try to stay aware of what was going on, he even asked his mom if they could bring a stray that had been hanging around their house, inside – so it would be safe! He explains how the cat scratched his neck when he first picked it up (normal for a stray, possibly feral cat)… the detective oohs and aahs about how nasty the scratch is (sure hope you cleaned that up Tyler, looks bad…), and TW “getting animated” tells the detective; that’s nothing! look what it did to my back! when I put it on my shoulder to bring it inside, it freaked out and ran down my back to stay outside! here, look! (TW lifts his shirt “eager” that the detective would see he was telling the truth) the detective comments on how bad the scratches are! …. mind if we take some pictures? (said the spider to the fly…)
Jason, my husband hunts whitetail deer and so, I asked him what ‘sound’ does removing the skin make? He described it as a “ripping, or a tearing sound, because you’re separating it from the connective tissue, if you’re using the knife you won’t hear it but sometimes we just get hold of part of it and pull down and then you do hear that sound.” Then I Googled “cat dissection,” and there it is: skin, connective tissue, and muscle. As long as the connective tissue is intact, there would be ‘sound’ associated with its removal.
First off this is a new line, and I like it. I was getting a little frustrated by the continuation of the “are these animal killings.”
I’m not going into those too much more until we have more.
Yeah… That sound is made in freshly dead flesh, not in animals treated for dissection. Even if you freeze the animal, the skin doesn’t tear it. I know about it from slaughtering animals. Your husband knows about it from dressing a kill. How does Tyler know about it?
How does Tyler know about “the sound?”
Jason, am I wrong in this assumption? How could we find out?
re-posting:
Then I Googled “cat dissection,” and there it is: skin, connective tissue, and muscle. As long as the connective tissue is intact, there would be ’sound’ associated with its removal.
Jason, re: “sound” – two points:
1. researching “cat dissection” I came across this which, to me, implies that the skin will not simply peel away, but will instead require some measure of force in particular areas… force that would create a sound:
— CAREFULLY TEASE THE SKIN AWAY from the underlying muscle (or bone) with a blunt instrument (fingers and thumbs work well). The cottony material which ties the skin down to the body is called superficial fascia. Watch the skin so that you leave all tissue on the body. If you come to a difficult area, work around and behind it for a better approach. Here are the problem areas to which muscle may adhere to the skin: 1) the flanks, 2) the neck, 3) the shins, and especially 4) the head . Do not tear or remove underlying muscle, but note that force is occasionally needed.—
2. In further discussion w/my husband (hunting) , and to the point of ‘condition’ of animal (i.e. “frozen”) he related that he once downed a deer that was very difficult to track, when he did find it, the outer layer was frozen (had been laying out in sub-freezing temps)… when dressing it shortly afterward, it was so cold his hands were numb, and yes, it still made the “tearing sound.” (he also noted that the outer layer of meat was frozen)
I saw your photos in the unapproved posts (I can’t approve them, Max will eventually).
When dealing with a recently dead animal, my knife would cut into the skin, and then I would pull back with a significant amount of force to expose the meat. There was a loud tearing sound. When we cut into the treated cow, there was the sound of moisture escaping, but to call it tearing would miss the point. There was a distinct difference between the two sounds. One sounded very much like the rip of cloth, but still fluid and distinctive. The other was the sound a pot of boiling water makes when you remove the lid, like the exhaling of breath.
You cut and cure hams in temperatures close to or below freezing( 30 to 40 days at 40 degrees or less to cure ham, so you don’t want to take any chances that you’ll get a warm spot and spoil the hams), so the air is clear, the meat is often frozen by the time you get to butchering the next animal, and sound carries very well in the shed. You use a saw to cut through flesh and bone cleanly, so perhaps the sound of the saw hides the tearing, but if you’re still pulling away skin, the frozen connective tissue and the frozen meat are different consistencies. They come apart pretty easily from the fat you’re trying very hard to collect. This is a process and you deal with several animals.
Maybe a deer is different because the connective tissue doesn’t have as much fat it’s anchored to. Fat does tear away. Whether a cat’s flesh is more like a deer than a hog, I’m not certain, but the cow I saw butchered ( I was not helping, and I was paying more attention to the conversation from the butcher than the process which was novel, but I was a little disgusted by) was much more like the hog butchering than the deer butchering. The deer had already been field dressed. It was full of newspaper and was frozen solid. My Uncle worked near an outdoor fire to get the skin off and it peeled off the meat leaving a sheening protective sheath of what I assume was connective tissue beneath. He had to cut only a small amount here and there to pull the skin away. Other times it simply came free with a sharp jerk that didn’t make a tearing sound like that made when you cut into a chicken or hog.
Yeah, I think you’re missing my point
I’ve dissected animals in classes and I’ve helped to render animals for food.
One of these actions makes the sound, the other does not. Only recently dead animals have connective tissue that makes the sound because the connective tissue either dissolves or breaks down quickly. Preserved animals do not make that tearing sound.
Jason, and I’m certainly not trying to spar with you, but this is a vitally important point and I have felt compelled to find out more…
This (graphic photos) clearly shows the connective tissue remains intact:
http://bio.bd.psu.edu/cat/External_Anatomy/index.htm#skinning
(see also the description re: dissection; removal of skin, which I posted moments ago)
Max – just spotted WHY everything turned south after my first two posts here! I have been writing on this for so long maybe I hit burnout, but when I arrived here HUA and just threw the two articles out WITHOUT making the vital connections… well, duh! Here’s what I should have included w/initial posts:
Alleged cat mutilation cases were occurring in Salt Lake City and Denver, concurrently. In Denver, a 10 agency task force was formed, in both locales criminal profilers were called in, rewards were announced, communities were warned about a cat serial killer on the loose, anger and hysteria grew, pressure was on LE to catch the psychopath(s) they believed responsible, vets and animal control confirmed that the kills were human related because of how the remains appeared, news releases used terminology like, “cut with surgical precision,” “the remains were posed, as if to taunt the owner,” etc. all implying human involvement.
It was into these circumstance that Dr. Lockwood entered. Pathology testing determined that no human was involved, all cases were attributed to animal predation. Low key press release. End of story. Millions spent, absolute certainty driving the investigations, one area (either, one of these two areas or some other I’ve read of recently – there are many) was so certain, that LE had 4 suspects!)
Similar cases, same jargon, same certainty, same hysteria, across the country have proven likewise to be animals, not persons: WA, UT, CO, NY, KS, TX, and in South Florida (Lauderhill’s 17 cases, & at least 14 of M-D’s 33 cases)
Think it would have helped had I pulled this together to begin with? I’m an idiot. Note to self: never, ever, ever assume anything!
Investigator: Most cat killings are done by animals
By REBECCA JONES Scripps Howard News Service
Published: Friday, July 18, 2003 10:34 PM EDT
As the feline death toll mounted, the cat-owning public became more nervous, convinced that its pets were being abducted, killed and mutilated at the hands of sickos.
Eventually, 67 pets would fall victim before the spate of cat mutilations in Tustin, Calif., in the summer of 1989 came to an end.
The parallels to the cat mutilations being investigated in the Denver area and in Salt Lake City are apparent.
But the country’s leading investigator of reports of animal mutilations insists that while there no doubt are cruel humans walking the streets, bent on killing animals, the vast majority of the cats that died in Tustin were victimized by four-legged or winged predators. He believes the same is probably true now.
“Over two years, there were perhaps 10 cat killings that were due to human intervention in Tustin,” says Randall Lockwood, vice president of research and educational outreach of the Humane Society of the United States and co-author of a soon-to-be-released book that will guide police and veterinarians in investigating animal-cruelty cases.
“There are lots of things that kill cats: cars, eagles, owls, cougars … and malicious people. The world is a dangerous place for an outdoor cat. The key message is to keep your cat indoors – not just until this ends but forever.”
It’s the same message breeders and animal-shelter workers have been stressing for years to people who adopt cats. Most won’t place cats into adoptive homes unless the families agree to keep the animals indoors at all times, or else to take them outside only on leashes or to provide them with safely fenced and roofed outdoor play areas.
The statistics are hard to dismiss: The life expectancy of an indoor cat is 15 to 20 years, says Kathy Macklem, director of the Cat Care Society; cats allowed to roam outside live an average of just two to five years. Feral cats, who never come indoors, live even shorter lives.
Lockwood, whose book, Forensic Investigation of Animal Cruelty: A Guide for Veterinary and Law Enforcement Professionals, will be released next year, says wounds from wild predators often appear to be human-caused, even to trained eyes.
“The two phrases that always turn up are ‘cut with surgical precision’ and ‘drained of blood,’ ” Lockwood says. “These are very common with predator kills. The cuts look clean, and it bleeds out very quickly.
“People expect to find, if an animal has been killed by a predator, that it’s ripped apart, lying in a pool of blood. That’s not what you find. As wounds are cleaned by insects, natural bodily processes take over and the wounds tend to take on a slick, smooth appearance, looking as if they were done with a knife. People overlook the fact that the canine teeth of predators are, in essence, knives, and they leave a very clean cut.”
http://www.lakecityreporter.com/articles/2003/07/18/news/local/news02.txt
I guess Tylers mom has her house up for sale. I guess when your kid kills the neighbors pets, tea time is never the same after that.
What a vacuous, calloused statement.
I can see why you feel at home here; sending all the “bad people” to hell…. (*I don’t need proof to condemn anyone! I just know mwhahahaha* – is that it?)
Haven’t you harassed enough people here: http://www.topix.net/forum/city/fort-lauderdale-fl/TGVNK1V41S0N0OQRA/p22#lastPost
here: http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=92674092627
and here: http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=96929111953
Get a grip. What are you, his grandma?
I’m really disappointed with her argument claude – she basically admitted it’s all based on her assumption that the Miami-Dade police didn’t bother to hire the best experts available to make the final determination on whether or not animals were responsible for the 19 cat’s Weinman is charged with killing. In a high-profile case like this no less. That’s a pretty weak foundation to support the smug, superior attitude she carries around with her. She appears to be just one more of those pseudo-intellectual bullshit artists who invade this site on a regular basis.
Let’s see, I assume that something has not been done (the pathology testing needed to determine whether animal or human killed cats) BECAUSE there has been nothing reported on it and there is no reference to any testing in the affidavit; you assume testing has been done BECAUSE it’s a “high-profile case like this.”
Come on. Really, who do you think is making the more reasonable assumption; the one who bases the belief on known facts (no testing has been reported/no test results have been released), or the one who blindly trusts that they must have done it because, after all, *it’s a big case!* ??
Not in the affidavit, not in their official press releases (which is really surprising, because every other unsupported theory is), so I ask you: where did you find the evidence that the testing has been done/is complete, and please post a link.
I think she might be a relative. Tylers mom, Alba Weinman is actually Alba Alonso, from New Jersey. DP, usually shows up from Leesburg Georgia or Albany Georgia. There are a few Alonso’s in that area who formerly lived in new jersey as well. Leesburg GA has a population of about 2500 people. Just a hunch. I could be wrong.
You’re right claude, she’s posting from Albany GA. She certainly acts like a family member – unreasonable, illogical, and just a little bit nutty.
claude says: July 13, 2009 at 5:32 pm, “…I think she might be a relative.”
That’s it? Why is it that those who take the position *guilty, until PROVEN innocent” (the exact opposite of what the American system of justice is premised on), seem to have such difficulty sticking to the questions put to them? Could it be because they have nothing?
You assume the accused is guilty, you assume I’m a relative, etc. Wrong.
Oh, and hey, just so you don’t think I’m impolite; *thanks* for posting the links to the FB groups/Topix thread: a lot of great information, hopefully someone that stops by here will check it out ;)-
If you think for a minute that i believe you are about innocent vs. guilty, think again. No, you are about freeing tyler at all costs, to the point where you harass anyone over and over again who doesn’t see it your way. Yes i assume he is guilty. You bet i do. As for you being relative, i don’t know one way or the other. It’s not I who did the work. Its not your questions that are being ignored. Its you. You come off as nothing but a nutjob. And i’m more than happy to post those links, so people can see you’re a nutjob. Don’t you get it? No one wants to hear from you. It really is that simple. There is just simply something not quite right in your head. All you do over and over is continue to post links from cases not even related to this. I read them before you ever posted them. There are major differences in them, and no i’m going to debate the point with you. I think he’s guilty, period. Live with it.
claude says: (A LOT) @ July 13, 2009 at 6:49 pm
Wow Claude, thanks for straightening me out! Here I thought, if I tried really hard, stuck to the facts, posted links to verifiable sources, distinguished experts, etc. that you would all make nice and at least think about it. Gosh. You sure saved me a lot of time and trouble by chewing me up one side and down the other like that. Taking the time and spending the effort to explain all this to me… what can I say? Thanks, so much.
Now, thanks to Claude, I finally see the error of my thinking!
The State never errs.
Cops never err.
News never lies.
Hysteria and subjectivity are not “bad” things.
Most people are intelligent and able to ascertain the “truth” w/o the benefit of trials; due process, presumption of innocence, habeas corpus, and all that other silly stuff.
The government has my best interest at heart, and I can trust them.
Man, did I have it backwards! Thanks again Claude.
(As I’ve posted elsewhere: I don’t post for your benefit, I’m not looking to make friends with any of you, I could care less what you think of me. I post for ONE REASON ONLY: that others popping in might see that there really are some of us left who have the courage to stand in front of a lynch mob and yell: “Wait a minute! Could we be missing something here?!”)
DueProcess,
Do us all a favor and remove your head from your ass. This little bastard could confess to killing these cats, show you a video of him doing it, and throw a recently killed cat on your face and you’d still think that he was innocent.
Perhaps when he moves onto killing humans, because I’m sure he won’t be convicted you’ll wake the hell up and realize the error of your ways. That is doubtful of course, because you’ll more than likely defend him for that as well.
Oi vey…the brain damaged these days. What do we do with your kind ?
Great post. Right on the money. When she started this, he was only innocent unless convicted, but any of us who have watched her over the weeks pretty much come to the same conclusion. If Tyler takes a plea bargain she will claim he did so out of fear of the public and that he didn’t really do it. If he is convicted by a jury she will claim he was tried and convicted in the media and he really didn’t do it. Shes in so deep now, what else could she really say?
Thanks Claude, and welcome….you appear to be new. Correct me if I’m wrong.
If there’s one thing I’ve learned on this site, aside from there being a hell of a lot of incredibly bright, kind decent people…is that no matter the case, no matter how horrific the details, there is ALWAYS going to be some intellectually dishonest, morally bankrupt, spastic malcontent who will defend the guilty and dismiss evidence that is so glaringly obvious to the rest of us.
So far, all you’ve done is blown smoke. At least I post credible information, with links to verify their suppositions. What do you have? More assumptions, this time about what I *will/would do* based again, I presume, on your incredible instincts??
You’ve stated, emphatically, that Miami-Dade has conducted the scientific testing, that they “relied on the experts” in their determination of which cats were killed by animals and which by a person. Really?
Post the link to that news flash. Post anything that makes your case. Then, like in an actual debate, we’ll take our opposing views toe-to-toe. No, you’d rather just tell me how wrong I am… based on?? Surprise me.
(why do so many of you spend so much time denouncing anyone that brings a contrary point of view? is there some “conformity code,” to post here? lol)
Maelstrom says, “Do us all a favor and remove your head from your ass. This little bastard could confess to killing these cats, show you a video of him doing it, and throw a recently killed cat on your face and you’d still think that he was innocent.
Perhaps when he moves onto killing humans, because I’m sure he won’t be convicted you’ll wake the hell up and realize the error of your ways. That is doubtful of course, because you’ll more than likely defend him for that as well.”
As eloquently as you’ve stated your case (sarcasm) the fact remains he has NOT confessed, there is no physical evidence thus far, no eyewitnesses to a crime (including, apparently, the many cops that were watching him), he has NOT yet had a trial (& if this gets that far based on the NADA they have, I’ll be surprised), no one has ever seen him mistreat any animal ever nor has he given any indication that he disliked cats, in other words EXCEPT for what the “psychologist cop” THINKS might have happened – there’s nothing to convince me it did. On the other hand, animal forensic experts state unequivocally that these so-called “cat mutilation” cases, which have & continue to occur across the country, are attributable to wild animal predation, that pathology testing proves it, AND since the S Fl cases are described EXACTLY the same way… you might wonder if the cause is also the same…
Somehow you manage to twist all of this to mean that if he confessed, if the testing proved his involvement, if he is found guilty based on the evidence (VS the media) in a trial, by a jury, that I would still defend him… huh?? How are you people reaching your conclusions – crystal ball? I’m so jealous!!
DueProcess,
Awwww, there there. If I were you I’d be jealous of me as well. Iam fantastically good looking, have a clear complexion, beautiful red hair, wear a size 4 AFTER having one child, and have an impeccable fashion sense. But it looks as if your one moment of lucidity and rational thought has just passed you by.
Just what is it about these nutcases that turns you on anyways ?
Maelstrom, “Iam fantastically good looking, have a clear complexion, beautiful red hair, wear a size 4 AFTER having one child, and have an impeccable fashion sense.”
HUH??? lol You forgot to mention “incredibly good judge of character, instinctively search out the facts, objective beyond average..”
Or, maybe you didn’t forget.
Then why didn’t you bother to look at the book yourself instead of citing from that article? You know you can read the first few pages on Amazon for free. Go check, you characterized the author. Check again.
Words instead of deeds.
It would be hard to be a part of the neighborhood, when you bail out the man who killed so many of the neighbor’s pets.
Your articles seem to intend to portray these animal deaths as “not man made.” Do you have a vested interest in Tyler’s acquittal? Is your goal in this to start from the position, that Tyler is innocent and any way to look at the “crimes” from a different angle than reality is the better way to approach this?
Stop and consider this from another perspective. What was Tyler’s interest in the facebook to capture the cat killer? Why did so many killings fall on that one mile stretch?
How many killings would seem reasonable?
Trying to make a point with Georgia View, um, I mean DueProcess, is well…pointless. It’s like debating with a wall. Take a look at her Facebook posts and you’ll see what I mean. This lady has nothing better to do with her time than surf every Tyler Weinman site proclaiming his innocence. She posts links to articles about animal predation and what not to say to the police if you are arrested. Sounds like a former defendant if you ask me. The lady is absolutely certifiable.
(why do so many of you spend so much time denouncing anyone that brings a contrary point of view? is there some “conformity code,” to post here? lol)
Oh Dueprocess….If it ain’t the pot calling the kettle black…..How YOU, the same one that has banned everyone in your Facebook moderated groups who oppose your point of view could say this almost made me choke on my coffee this morning…
Thanks for the chuckle……
Lucky for you, they don’t delete or ban your wild hallucinations….Wonder why you can’t do the same….
“…the same one that has banned everyone in your Facebook moderated groups who oppose your point of view…”
This is not factual. Taking Jason and Mazzi’s advice, I’ll try not to overreact, and respond with just the facts:
The two young people that created the FB group, “Justice for Tyler” asked me if I would administer the group. Prior to this change in admin., there were several foul-mouthed posts based on admitted hatred for someone whom they assumed “guilty.” Much time was wasted posting information in response to these type of comments, several members carefully addressed each “point” raised, in return they were insulted, further silliness occurred and chaos was rearing its head.
The first thing I did was to institute “posting rules” – which, for fairness I allowed 2 hours for feedback/suggestions to amend, etc.
The reaction the new rules received was overwhelming positive, minor adjustments were made and the rules went up.
————————————
POSTING RULES:
Whatever our personal views as to guilt, innocence, or even withholding judgment (the wisest stance), we will all be held to the following “rule” in order that we might post our thoughts without being attacked by another member, and to avoid the chaos that NOT having this rule would cause:
ALL POSTS must be respectful of the FACT that Tyler Weinman remains INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY, in both the human rights AND the legal sense of the concept.
Accordingly, ALL POSTS will refrain from abusive comments directed at Tyler and/or any member of Tyler’s family, and/or any other member who posts respectful thoughts conducive to *discussion,* whether or not you agree with his/her conclusions.
Failure to abide by this *common decency* rule will result in the commenter being warned, ONE time, by a moderator with notification sent the administrator. —Such comments will be deleted.— Continued abuse will result in loss of membership. (the “court of public opinion” will not be considered a valid defense, and foul language is an automatic ban.)
———————————-
So far, only one person has been banned. There are still almost 700 members. Must not be too arbitrary.
Wow, DueProcess scares me. Like literally. If you were in a room with her, and disagreed, eventually she might snap and really try to hurt someone. Or maybe I’m getting the wrong picture here, but it sure sounds like it.
I’m sure I could take care of myself, but there’s something frightening about someone who seems like they are stretched so thin they’ll just suddenly leap at your throat like some sort of wild animal. I didn’t read 100 percent of the blather above, but I caught enough. Seriously? This person is emotionally involved, if not related. For whatever reason. In any case:
I think the fucker will get off, and not because he is innocent. I think he’ll get off because for some reason, even if they find a fingerprint in dried cat blood, cat blood on his implements of mutilation and a big tattoo on his lily white ass that says “i <3 killing cats," the big picture is that the cat lovers care… but the law could give a shit. Even if convicted, he'll get the minimum sentence possible because again, they were "just animals", and also because you can't convict the bastard on the likelihood that he will move on to people someday… which… he will.
I'm going to go ahead and move on to say that a forensic anthropologist who has studied animal bones would be able to tell if the kill was animal related or not. (I'm not sure how many knife wounds that a vet would generally see on a live pet?) I know that courses are offered at the BS level regarding animals for cases JUST LIKE THIS. I have not seen the master's level courses yet, so I'm not sure how far the specialization goes. I guess it's just a matter of finding the right scientist and having him be free to go down there and check out a load of mutilated cat bodies.
Alanna, “…a forensic anthropologist who has studied animal bones would be able to tell if the kill was animal related or not. (I’m not sure how many knife wounds that a vet would generally see on a live pet?)…”
That’s really the only point I’m trying to make, wherever I have posted on this case, that until a pathologist examines the remains and states, for fact, that these cats were NOT killed by animal predators, then we can’t assume that a human was even involved. Maybe he was, I don’t know, but to me this is an important point. (more below under “TO ALL”)
Jason-
1. every report I have seen has claimed 33 dead cats (not 63) – if you have a link to something that says otherwise I’d appreciate if you’d share it.
a) Based on the ’33′ that means that 40% of all deaths were attributable to animals. M-D LE early on stated that these 14 other cases were caused -most likely- by “dogs.”
b) Concurrent with these events in M-D, approx 50mi away, (& much closer than the other cases of alleged “mutilation” I’d read about thus far) Lauderhill, FL was experiencing identical “finds.” Concerns ran exactly the same in both locales, descriptions of the finds were described in ways suggesting (strongly) human involvement, etc.
c) Lauderhill began autopsies of the remains (necropsies) and quickly discovered that these cases were all attributable to animals, despite the impression of how they “looked” which had caused everyone conclude “human cruelty.” ALL 17 cases: animal predation. Testing was done, results announced, the bleeding of money spent on investigations was stemmed.
d) Miami-Dade has not, to date, announced any such testing.
(if Max has confidential information this this HAS been done, it will come out at a later date to support LE’s theory, until then; we have what we have. Mazzi mentioned that LE is under no obligation to reveal these results as yet, that “convictions have been overturned due to info that was leaked to the public” in other cases… I would suggest that inflammatory info which is found inadmissible in court would fit this bill; strong foundational forensic evidence doesn’t seem likely to.)
The affidavit specifically references 19 cases that can be linked to the defendant.
The other we’ve hashed a bit already.
Agreed, and 19 have been charged – twice: one for the death, one for improper disposal,; along w/what – 4(?) burglary charges for entering yards?
My question is – until we see test results (completed by pathologists) we have no information that these tests have been done. IF they have not been done, how were they able to deduce that 14 of the 33 were caused by animals/dogs when experts state repeatedly that it is not possible to discern “cause” w/o the trained eye of a pathologist? (even vets and animal control have been proven incorrect based on later pathology results… certainly THEY are more highly trained in this area than LE, and yet they are often wrong)
I’ll concede this point, as long as you’ll leave the item open that the tests you’re asking for could have been performed, but could have been left out of the affidavit to prevent undue contamination of the experts (Private Vets may have been used in this case, in my opinion) by the media.
Agreed. Max mentioned that he had information that the tests have been done, nothing has been reported to support this, but I can concede that they may have held back the findings until such a time as a trial takes place.
Jason-
2) State officials have selectively leaked all sorts of inflammatory info, one wonders how much of this will stand the judge’s scrutiny. The affidavit reveals the grounds relied on for probable cause in issuing the arrest warrant, but when finally unsealed, due to actions brought by Miami Herald, on 7/06: Nothing. No physical evidence. No eyewitnesses to a crime. Only a Det.’s conjecture that Tyler *fit the profile of a sociopath* based on a conversation the Det. had w/a staff psychologist of whom he’d inquired about “sociopathic personality.” (when TW was actually examined by a psychiatrist he was found to pose no danger to himself or the community)
That’s not specifically true. Two witnesses detailed him to the location of one of the attacks (within 4 hours of the discovery) This is at the bottom of page 4 and the top of page 5 of the Affidavit.
I find this to be one of the weakest areas in the affidavit, here’s why…
An anonymous caller informs police that TW is using his cell phone – outside – at 3 a.m. Another cat is found at 6 a.m. “several feet from where TW had been spotted twice earlier.”
When did the person call this in? After this cat was discovered? While TW was using the phone? Did anyone witness him so much as “touch” a cat? When did the cat die? Where was it found, i.e. in a bush, partially hidden…? How long was it there before someone noticed it and police were contacted? Was the one who discovered it the same “anonymous caller?” Too many holes.
Jason-
3) Police are apparently all over the place in these two communities, looking for who is killing cats. Tyler has gained LE interest because he has already been busted for pot (once), and a couple of unknown infractions while still a minor (if serious crimes, status as “minor” won’t protect anyone). TW ‘s out wandering (possibly headed home from friends -on foot- during the period dad restricted his use of vehicle-see affidavit), he’s spotted one night w/a “black pack,” he’s approached yet again by LEO who makes mention of someone killing cats (can we hear the manner in which this was stated? could it have been suggestive that Tyler might be that someone, to which “Tyler laughed” an uncomfortable “no way!” laugh?
The nature of the interview and the nature of the affidavit is to paint Tyler as carefully as possible to present that this is a case based upon a legitimate profile. I like this particular refutation, but not because it stresses intent, but because you come at it from a position of questioning the defendant’s reaction. That’s strong.
Copied portion of a post I made on FB, after reading through the affidavit, 7/06/09:
“…A laugh can be nervous, uncomfortable, embarrassed, gleeful, maniacal, mocking, and more.
Eagerness and animation can be nothing more than a willingness to cooperate and nervous agitation: not hard to imagine…
Describing dissection class with disturbing detail? Imagine THIS scenario:
The interrogation:
Detective: I understand you took dissection classes in High School, is that right Tyler? and that you actually had to dissect a cat? Tell me what that was like… you’re right it does sound pretty gross! What was the worst part of the dissection, for you? (TW talks about the “tearing sound”…) Must have been hard, especially since you said you like cats… Tell me more? Where do they get cats for dissection? (Tyler relates what his teacher told the class about Mexico, etc.)… your obviously an intelligent guy Tyler, any idea who might be killing these cats? (TW has no idea) Okay, but with your experience dissecting cats (TW interjects that he’s only dissected one cat, in biology class), detective: sure but at least you have some knowledge in this area so maybe you can help me figure this thing out? … how do you think someone would even go about mutilating these cats? what kind of tools would they need to make the kind of cuts we’ve found? (Tyler doesn’t know, offers a meaningless guess)
Perhaps TW’s eagerness was from his mistaken belief that the detective finally believed him, that he just wanted Tyler to help him somehow, maybe the detective made him feel like a buddy and the compliments were are little nice… Tyler even relates to his “new friend” that not only has he been concerned about this (joined a FB group w/many others to try to stay aware of what was going on), but he asked his mom is they could bring a stray that had been hanging around their house, inside – so it would be safe! He explains how the cat scratched his neck when he first picked it up (normal for a stray, possibly feral cat)… the detective oohs and aahs about how nasty the scratch is (sure hope you cleaned that up Tyler, looks bad…), and TW “getting animated” tells the detective; that’s nothing! look what it did to my back! when I put it on my shoulder to bring it inside, it freaked out and ran down my back to stay outside! here, look! (TW lifts his shirt “eager” that the detective would see he was telling the truth) the detective comments on how bad the scratches are! …. mind if we take some pictures?
You get the idea.
Until a videotaped record of the interrogation surfaces, there is no way to judge Tyler’s voice OR body language and it is HIGHLY prejudicial to accept the Detectives INTERPRETATION on its own. His interpretation, at this point, is no more feasible than the one I’ve just shared.”
The primary reaction expected in a police interview is a reasonable amount of apprehension, redolent indignation with reasonable respect for authority, and a skepticism tempered by a willingness to assist with authorities. The first two aren’t really mentioned in anything we have, but the third is present, uncomfortable and framed in an uncomfortable way.
I’m live in the Raleigh area and when the Duke Lacrosse players were accused, I believed it. In college I went to a few Duke parties and I felt dirty from the moment I fled from them, to several days later. There was no doubt in my mind because the DA in the case was completely out of control. He made up evidence. He used the media like a whip. The racial overtones were cast about and Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton showed up.
But this “seems” different, and maybe I am wrong, but the goal of the prosecutor wasn’t to stress the smiling face of the rapists in that case, it was to attack the power and privilege. To wear down the men involved and to tear them up in all matters. Press briefing after press briefing, release after release. This is very different.
10 pages, with only enough to start the proceedings. The only expert witnesses brought forward are psychological, but the specific items mentioned suggest an ambush. Notice the names smudged out? Do you suppose those are the witnesses?
I had seen two different instances of the State’s manipulation of the press prior to the Duke LaCross players’ cases, two separate cases where I knew the “accused” – and knew them to be innocent, knew the facts behind the accusations and witnessed the media carry the lies of the State directly into the public discourse: unfiltered, unchallenged, and I was disgusted. The naivete I had happily enjoyed up to that point was stripped forever. Now, I question everything they say. People are guilty, people do bad things, but I would no longer trust the carefully crafted press releases put out by those with the greatest bias in my desire to know the truth. When the Duke cases arose, I was fine tuned, listening for any of the obvious “broad brush strokes” that imply but do not prove, that get us angry but later are found to be nothing more than an elaborate theory. I’m no genius, but because of this skepticism, I believed that those boys were being railroaded too. (if someone’s caught in the act, there are witnesses, direct/verifiable evidence arises to place him at the scene, etc, I won’t defend the accused, but I will still fight for his absolute right to be heard under the law)
The “smeared names?” What page in affidavit?
I missed this one and looks like two others, so let me go through this.
On Page 2 of the Affidavit, the intersection name is missing below the second mention of the May 13th date. The first May 14th date has the street smeared out, and the name of the owner of the cat.
I question why those specific pieces of information were smeared out.
That is strange. Maybe the judge was able to see it and it was smeared out after? Again we’re left to speculate. Such a strange case.
I hope I’m replying in the right place, this thread is becoming a bit convoluted.
Anyway, here’s one explanation for the smeared out areas on the affidavit:
“The affidavit, which details evidence against Weinman, will not be redacted, except for the addresses of law enforcement officers.”
from:
http://www2.tbo.com/content/2009/jun/24/242036/affidavit-cat-mutilation-case-will-be-released/news-breaking/
Oh yes! That makes sense then, just remembered when you posted this that one of the cats belonged to a LEO. Would have to search every article to find it again, but I clearly recall that from an early report)
Didn’t take long to find it:
“One of the pets belonged to a police officer, according to according to television reports.” (now we have TV as a source?)
http://www.palmbeachpost.com/accent/content/state/epaper/2009/06/11/0611_catdeaths.html
But there’s something else of interest in this story, dated June 11 (two days before TW was taken in for questioning) —
“Detectives are awaiting the results of necropsies before deciding on other cases, said Miami-Dade Police Detective Roy Rutland, a department spokesman.” The plot thickens…
Are There Other Florida Cat Killers?
June 25th, 20009
Authorities say they’re trying to determine whether a South Florida teenager charged with killing 19 cats had accomplices.
“We have not confirmed he acted alone,” prosecutor Michael Von Zamft said Wednesday at a hearing on whether to unseal the affidavit for suspect Tyler Weinman’s arrest.
Weinman, 18, was arrested June 14 and charged with killing and mutilating the cats.
Wednesday, the Miami Herald and CBS asked Miami-Dade Circuit Judge John Thornton to unseal the affidavit, saying it’s a public record.
But prosecutors said releasing the affidavit could jeopardize efforts to investigate other possible suspects, the Herald reported.
Thornton refused to release the document, but prosecutors agreed to do so at Weinman’s July 6 arraignment because the investigation is expected to be complete by then, the Herald reported.
Authorities have begun a separate investigation into threats against Weinman, Von Zamft said at Wednesday’s hearing.
In Lauderhill, Fla., authorities have determined 17 cats found dead likely were not killed by humans, the South Florida Sun-Sentinel reported. That conclusion is based on necropsies done on the cats, the newspaper said. (c) UPI http://www.postchronicle.com/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi?archive=145&num=239885
So now I’m wondering, are they relying on TV as a source (as indicated above), and perhaps getting the necropsy info mixed up w/Lauderhill? Still looking but a search of “Miami-Dade necropsies” yields only stories about Lauderhill…
Article posted above (Are There Other Florida Cat Killers?
June 25th, 20009)
M-D implied to the judge re: Miami Herald’s attempt to have affidavit unsealed that doing so would harm their case because they were investigating possible accomplices, we were lead to believe that the affidavit contained other names, yet when it was finally unsealed: no one else is mentioned? Buying time to strengthen a weak case?
One more article from June 12th, referencing the LEO who’s cat was found dead:
Excerpt: “Psychiatrist Ewald Horwath says the culprit is most likely a disturbed young man, alienated from society.
“This is someone who’s willing to be violent,” said Horwath, head of psychiatry at the University of Miami Miller School of Medicine. “It involves a degree of cruelty and sadism that is quite disturbing.”
Noting that one of the owners of a slain cat was a police officer who had a marked patrol car in the driveway, Horwath said the killer is brazen and showing signs of escalation.
(further down this reference to necropsy) —
A day earlier, four dead cats were discovered in the same vicinity. Of those, police ruled out two cases and are waiting on necropsies to confirm whether the other two were the work of the same serial murderers.http://www.palmbeachpost.com/state/content/state/epaper/2009/06/12/0612catkillings.html
—————
A young man “alienated from society?” “…someone willing to be violent?” Neither of these descriptions would fit anything printed or said about who TW was PRIOR to these charges.
Jason-
4) What about the back pack? These guys didn’t look inside? I find that hard to believe, TW has cooperated with everything they’ve done so far, he’s going to deny access? No, more likely that LE did look inside, found nothing of import and yet let stand the implication in the affidavit by use of the term “black back pack,” leaving out any mention of contents.
They did find a gram of marijuana in his car and the cutting implement outside the driver’s side window after a traffic stop. When they mention these items, I agree, the question is begged, what was in or on the backpack.
I have so many questions – hope I’m not driving you crazy, but I wonder about so many things reported in this case, like –
How small IS a “gram” of pot? What type of “cutting instrument?” The implication is that when pulled over TW tossed it out the window (driver’s side, on ground by door) but the affidavit doesn’t state that, it just implies it… why? What qualifies as a “cutting instrument?” A shard of broken beer bottle on the road?, or something more ominous…
From Google:
An Ounce is roughly 28.38 grams
A Quarter Bag is roughly seven grams
A Dime bag is a gram
A Dime bag can make roughly 2 normal joints
Note: This is not something I’m familiar with. I’ve never been able to smoke even tobacco.
From a case I saw:
Rings, extra bags, a scale and/or more than a 1/4 ounce can lead to possession with intent to sell (whether Misdemeanor 2 or Felony Class 3)
Thanks for the info, Jason. Sounds like it could have been even 1 ‘joint’ or part of one, which was discovered… not a lot in any case.
I’m curious about this as well. I’ve had police dump the contents of my purse in the floorboard during a routine traffic stop, so I find it hard to believe they didn’t at least take a peek in that backpack.
Exactly Red.
We know from our own experiences what is reasonable and what is not. I know several cops who are decent men, but they are the “old guard,” prefer to be called “policemen” over “cop” – you know? These guys have all noted a marked change in the mentality of the younger breed; they call them “cowboys,” they observe a more militaristic stance, a stronger “us against them” mentality (and why do most of them shave their heads now?).
Things have changed and that’s an observable fact, and it effects judgments, it effects objectivity, it effects interpretation. That’s why I think it’s so important to carefully analyze every “press report” put out by the state: which is proven fact?, which is conjecture, hypothesis? (went longer than I intended – more on this later)
Jason-
5) A tracking device is placed on (both?) vehicles: who’s vehicles are they? Some reports have suggested that they belonged to his mom and dad. Vehicle(s) is tracked to within 1/2 mi. of where a dead cat is discovered. When was the cat killed? Was it hit by a car and dragged by a predator onto the yard of the nearby owner? TW lives in the vicinity, he travels between work, parents homes, friends homes, stores, etc. What is the likelihood that he would pass by locations where dead cats are later discovered? He, and everyone else in these adjacent communities? Setting aside the GPS, what of the visual surveillance? Reports have stated that they had him several times under surveillance but were unable to observe him “doing anything wrong.”
The Affidavit lists all of the cats that he’s currently being cited for. Most were found inside of fenced in lots. The likelihood they were “dragged” there by a vehicle is a little far fetched, don’t you think?
I think predator or someone else is a better argument here than the car reference.
On Page 2, look at the cat listed for May 14th, 9211 Ridgeland Drive. This is the cat specifically connected to Tyler. Notice “fenced in yard”
A woman posting on Facebook, shared about her personal painful experience with pit bulls she owned. I asked her about this “fenced yard” issue. She replied that her dogs eventually had to be put down because of their behavior in the neighborhood, specifically: her dogs would jump the fence (her yard) to enter other fenced yards and drag back their “trophies.” (usually cats that owners believed “safe” in their own yards). At first she thought the cats had wandered into her yard and been attacked, but then neighbors spotted them “climbing/jumping fences, and she eventually witnessed it for herself.
The description of what the remains looked like is also just as in these other “mutilation” cases – the “cuts” appear as if done with “surgical precision.” She stated that she wold not have believed it had she not witnessed with her own eyes.
I’ve had pets killed by Coyotes before. You don’t find much of them. Coyotes are food motivated, efficient and actually bury the evidence of their crimes, so I doubt Coyotes (I bring it up, because if I was looking for a culprit, I’d suspect one of the major wild animals of the area).
Pitbulls are different, but they’re still prey/food drive motivated here if they’re the culprits. Why weren’t the bodies removed by the dogs? My old dog Sadie would find a cow’s knee in the pasture and would dance with it for hours–pertinent because after the cat was dead, why wasn’t there anything else “done to it.” Why was there no sign of masking after the attack? Dogs roll over their dead prey after they abandon a carcass to mask their scent. It’s an instinctual habit that many, many dog owners can attest to. The masking would have disturbed the remains significantly.
I don’t know, like I said, I think predator or another human offender is the best argument for someone other than Tyler, but I don’t think it’s perfect.
This brings us full circle to the quotes I originally posted by Dr. Lockwood. The man is highly credible because of his work (pursuing cases of animal abuse/human cruelty)… when he states that the great majority of these “cat mutilation” cases – all over the country – are the work of wild/stray animals, it certainly makes you think. Again the pertinent quotes:
“..wounds from wild predators often appear to be human-caused, even to trained eyes.
“The two phrases that always turn up are ‘cut with surgical precision’ and ‘drained of blood,’ ” Lockwood says. “These are very common with predator kills. The cuts look clean, and it bleeds out very quickly.
“People expect to find, if an animal has been killed by a predator, that it’s ripped apart, lying in a pool of blood. That’s not what you find. As wounds are cleaned by insects, natural bodily processes take over and the wounds tend to take on a slick, smooth appearance, looking as if they were done with a knife. People overlook the fact that the canine teeth of predators are, in essence, knives, and they leave a very clean cut.”
Personally, I have to cede to Dr. Lockwood in this area. I turned to him because of his outstanding credentials.
I do honestly get that, but what I wanted to stress was that even though “sometimes” they aren’t. Sometimes they are. We found small patches of fur of one of our cats. With the goat we found killed by dogs, it was ripped to pieces. Coyotes will eat only the fat of sheep around the kidneys if there are plenty of sheep for them to kill. Rats will slaughter turkeys and actually drag their bodies together for a giant rotting nest in the turkey houses that get a large resident. My dogs would kill wildlife and would mask. It meant you’d find this flat, exsanguinated thing in the yard, that was difficult to identify.
You’ve done a good thing. You’ve presented that you think pitbulls did this, but I’m arguing that pitbulls might have done things differently(I had mutts, not pitbulls, so I am not an expert on this).
Is there something else that could have done this? Something in the area and more likely to handle things this way? I saw one post on this on another website that suggested of all things, Florida Panthers. If this is a wild animal or domestic animal attack, what fits this profile?
Personally, I have to cede to Dr. Lockwood in this area. I turned to him because of his outstanding credentials.
I still think you’re miss-characterizing hisattitudes in this case. He has a facebook if you want to cyber-stalk him(just joking), and ask him if he’s involved in the case. I think though, that you miss that his text has been absorbed as a major source for crimes of this nature, and that early on, his book would have shown up in the hands of the investigators.
Other possible predators?
Bobcats, “foreclosure dogs,” (that’s a heartbreaking situation in Florida, hard hit by the real estate market falling families just abandon their pet in a park and hope for the best), cars…and then some animal drags it into yard, raccoons, gators, vultures, owls, panthers. I really don’t know, just streaming a list of FL wildlife/strays.
Are you aware that these cats were all old? 10,13 yrs old… The literature on outdoor VS indoor life expectancy is grim, with outdoor cats living something like half as long as those kept indoors. Someone else made an excellent point related to “age” –
if a person was killing these cats, what are the odds that they would all be “old?” wouldn’t the ages vary some? On the other hand older cats are more likely to fall victim to car accidents and animal predators.
Justin-
6) LE has developed a theory about TW and now seeks to bring him in for questioning. According to the affidavit “several” of M-D’s finest stop TW for a traffic violation (what type of violation? location? not mentioned in affidavit, strange…): a sharp instrument is found “outside the driver’s door” on the ground. What is it? A knife!? A razor!? A piece of broken beer bottle? No mention in affidavit, just a sinister implication. Inside the vehicle “one gram” of pot is found. Voila! Grounds to take down for questioning. Convenient, or am I being too cynical? Apparently he is released after being questioned this time…. BUT they have their eyes on him… Pressure is building in the community, cops are working OT, staking out parks, neighborhoods, whatever. They want to catch “the guy.”
Failure to stop at a traffic control device. Second paragraph, page 5.
I too read every word of the affidavit and did note the “traffic control device” description. What type? Traffic lights? Stop sign? When we are ticketed for a traffic violation, the type of device, and the location (intersection) are routinely noted. Why not here, with “several” officers present? Why “several officers?”
My guess, and I’m going to mark this clearly as an opinion, is that the police were behind him and Tyler was distracted by their proximity.
To the “specifics” on the device, the ticket is very specific, but an affidavit is purposefully vague to prevent flaws in the affidavit from being used to hurt the investigation. A guess out of the dark, I’d say I’m 9 out of 10 sure the “traffic device” was a stop light, but it could have been a blinking light on a school bus, a railroad crossing light, a signal baton in the hands of an officer in front of the car, or something else I’m not familiar with in Florida. What I’m sure of though, is that the officer dotted their i’s on this one, even if there are no t’s. An officer of the law is considered an expert on traffic enforcement devices. To challenge that aspect of the case would be very, very hard.
Loved your wording; “…the officer dotted their i’s on this one, even if there are no t’s…” :)
Fair enough, the “traffic violation” is now set aside.
Jason-
7) 6/13/09 two events occur:
a.m. two stray pit bulls, which a LEO had alerted Animal Control to after spotting, are captured by animal control, one “very aggressive,” both having deep scratch wounds on their faces, animal control states that they hope the communities which have suffered these scary incidents might begin to relax *now that these 2 dogs have been taken off the street.*
No more killings…? (cont.)
Jason- (7 cont.)
p.m. Approached at a party, approx midnight hour, TW is again asked to submit himself for questioning. He apparently goes, voluntarily, without representation (he is questioned approx 8 hours). There is no “confession.” The affidavit contains one side of an exchange during interrogation which -without seeing/hearing for context- is meaningless. i.e.: tearing sound: had the Det. asked him to explain more about the dissection the biology class had done?, had TW insisted it was gross and when pressed (in custody) to explain in greater detail did he refer to a “tearing sound” that made him feel sick? We don’t know but we do know how the Detective has framed it. That’s all we can know until facial expression, tone of voice, form of the questions, etc. are seen./heard. Speculation of his “toying with detectives,” any conclusions of a his being a “sociopath” are groundless at this point as they must be based purely on the one-sided vantage point afforded by the affidavit; the detectives “interpretation.” (I have similar scenarios for each portion of the Detectives speculative assertions, including “scratches” which TW offered to show as proof that he was telling the truth about the stray he tried to bring in at his mom’s to “keep it from getting hurt” while all these cats were being killed… including the joining of the FB group, “Catch the Cat Killer” which many from both communities had joined to “catch the killer” and stay informed…) END
(just realized I should have posted all of this as “replies” to my first post – sorry, hope this isn’t too big a deal)
Jason – I’ve got to get out of here!
Thanks for the “exchange,” anything that makes us “think” is a good thing, and you really made me think! ;)
We don’t have to agree, and I don’t, I want to stress this, I’m about 77% sure Tyler did it right now and I will continue to research myself, but if your intention is to “influence” people, the best way is to present an argument the way you’d want one presented to you. I don’t know if Max and Mazzi would agree, but if you can keep the vitriol down, a reasoned response of questioned guilt, might be welcome here in very specific cases. I’m not saying post anything close to like this in the child murder and rape cases, but if you actually have something (and I still think what you have right now is a straw that while reasoned, is stretching it), present it, but don’t forget to lay out the baggage and prepare to respond about 30 times to the flaws in the original argument. Mazzi admitted on a thread she’d hate to argue against me. I have to give her and Max, and even claude in this case props. I don’t want to be on the wrong side of any argument, but even being on the right side, there are people you’d prefer not to face. There’s a broad bell curve of responses you can get here, and the 733t are 733t. I think your argument grew on me though. A few points here and there, but I think you might have something if you branch out and specifically address what “other” thing could have been involved.
If a smoking gun shows up, please do us all a favour and drop an apology for the severity of the comments. If Tyler is acquitted, Max can probably be bet on to present the who, what, where and why of it.
I want to stress, I think Max and Mazzi are high on my list of “scary opponents.”
Awwwwwww… you say the sweetest things Jason =)
DueProcess – You said that I came at you with both barrels with my first reply to you. I didn’t think so and certainly didn’t intend to, but I also know my habit of being direct with my comments and I can see how someone could misconstrue them as an attack. I suggest we start over again from the beginning – I’ve been watch you recent exchanges with Jason, and you seem reasonable. You wouldn’t be the first person I’ve agreed to disagree with.
Thanks, Max.
this guy is truely sick, i would feel sorry for him if he touched any of my cats
The two young people that created the FB group, “Justice for Tyler” asked me if I would administer the group. Prior to this change in admin., there were several foul-mouthed posts based on admitted hatred for someone whom they assumed “guilty.” Much time was wasted posting information in response to these type of comments, several members carefully addressed each “point” raised, in return they were insulted, further silliness occurred and chaos was rearing its head.
The first thing I did was to institute “posting rules” – which, for fairness I allowed 2 hours for feedback/suggestions to amend, etc.
The reaction the new rules received was overwhelming positive, minor adjustments were made and the rules went up.
————————————
POSTING RULES:
Whatever our personal views as to guilt, innocence, or even withholding judgment (the wisest stance), we will all be held to the following “rule” in order that we might post our thoughts without being attacked by another member, and to avoid the chaos that NOT having this rule would cause:
ALL POSTS must be respectful of the FACT that Tyler Weinman remains INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY, in both the human rights AND the legal sense of the concept.
Accordingly, ALL POSTS will refrain from abusive comments directed at Tyler and/or any member of Tyler’s family, and/or any other member who posts respectful thoughts conducive to *discussion,* whether or not you agree with his/her conclusions.
Failure to abide by this *common decency* rule will result in the commenter being warned, ONE time, by a moderator with notification sent the administrator. —Such comments will be deleted.— Continued abuse will result in loss of membership. (the “court of public opinion” will not be considered a valid defense, and foul language is an automatic ban.)
———————————-
So far, only one person has been banned. There are still almost 700 members. Must not be too arbitrary.
***** You allowed 2 hrs?? You think that is fair? Why not allow 24-48 hrs? Enough time for those with a life to check on the changes being made. Which by the way, would love to see when and where you made those changes. I don’t remember seeing a thing or being warned and honestly, unless I’m calling someone a fucking asshole, like some of Tyler’s great little friends do, I should never be banned, regardless of my opinion.
Still, if you want to try and snowball the people on this board into believing you’re this defender of truth and freedom of expression then go ahead. Give it a whirl. Personally I’ve read their posts and highly doubt they’ll give up the 2 cents they have to buy your BS.
**** Of course you had positive response. Look at the site. Everyone with an opposing view that actually made a statement has been banned. The entire group has become a public relations page for Tyler…..but I guess that must have been the goal
****** How is what I stated not factual??? Your rules are clear. If you don’t think Tyler is innocent then you can’t post here until after the trial is over and he is found guilty. …….Tell me how you can implement that rule then turn around and say you’re being fair and allowing an open discussion?
Wait a second!
Just so it is clear, Corymia is NOT talking about PYSIH when she says that all posters with opposing views have been banned. I started to freak out with righteous indignation till I realized that she was talking about a different board, LOL.
Despite my pushy attempts to get a certain drama-queen troll banned (not one involved with this thread), Max keeps refusing. Even after I offered to send him a bag of greasy tacos! For the record, the only posters I have seen banned are a couple of really disgusting perverts and a frootloop who sounded like he was about to go postal in real life.
….Just saying…. Please continue…
“a frootloop who sounded like he was about to go postal in real life.”
I find it best when i run into one of those to be a cheery as possible and just when they are about to bust, say “c’mon now, turn that frown upside down, no one likes a sad sack” and then run like hell.
Just read your, “I find it best when i run into one of those to be a cheery as possible and just when they are about to bust, say “c’mon now, turn that frown upside down, no one likes a sad sack” and then run like hell,” and… you obviously have a great sense of humor. I’d like to offer an apology for being combative with you.
LMAO…. oooo greasy tacos? maybe you should add an apple empanada YUM! and you are correct….I was talking about the facebook group called Justice for Tyler. Unlike that page, PYSIH is fantastic in allowing any and all points of view. Which can be dangerous because I do have to tell you that after reading all the comments in this thread I swear I had a mental orgasm and I wanted to marry Max, Jason, Maelstrom (til I read ‘he’ was a ‘she’- lol) etc. ; )
Lol..common error Corymia…I often get confused for being a dude. Though I’m quite flattered. :)
lol…well it was nice while it lasted….sort of like being with a tranny in the dark…..Sorry, I have a weird sense of humor…very sarcastic and borderline sick = ]
“…unless I’m calling someone a fucking asshole, like some of Tyler’s great little friends do, I should never be banned, regardless of my opinion.”
A very small number of TW’s friends did posts such comments, and if you’ll check you’ll see that way back then I was suggesting they should tone down the rhetoric, that if they purported to support Tyler, trash talking wasn’t the way to go about it. They listened and no, to my knowledge, has talked like that since.
On the other hand, several have come to post what could only be termed “rage speech,” highly inflammatory, demeaning of other members, posting just to vent some anger, accusing the admin of unfairness etc… w/o justification (not an example offered to support the charge.) Others attempted to reason with these few and were ridiculed and further berated for trying. All this was before I took over admin. Now?
To paraphrase your words: …unless you’re calling someone a f$#…g asshole (or similarly preventing discussion/debate)… you would never be banned, regardless of my opinion. Name calling, violent suggestions for punishment of the accused, etc. are not tolerated. The board tries to support the “presumption of innocence,” as stated in the Basic Info.
I hope you’ll come and post your own arguments.
::claude says:
July 13, 2009 at 9:12 pm
And now to prove how full of it you really are…
“July 6th, 2009
Miami-Dade Officials:
-dismiss the case/drop the charges (having now seen the affidavit which you sought to conceal and finding that you did not even have “probable cause” for the arrest; it’s the right thing to do)::
Going one step further, here’s a post from that very same group, on the message board, in a thread titled “AFFIDAVIT:Analysis” –
“Georgia View wrote on July 6, 2009 at 1:11pm
Yes, the bar for probable cause was met.
No, I don’t think they fabricated anything.”
So, even though she admits in her message board post that “the bar for probable cause was met”, she still demands that Officials drop the charges because, in her own words, they “did not even have “probable cause” for the arrest”. So which is it? Was there probable cause or not?
Fair comment. Not being a lawyer, I initially believed that probable cause might have met, and I have never believed that officials “fabricated” anything, ‘misinterpreted’ things perhaps, but not fabricated.
Following that post I learned that, no, in fact the threshold had not been met; no eyewitnesses, no physical evidence, only theory.
That’s when I posted what you have quoted.
Okay…. here’s the issue. Probable cause falls under that whole: “fair and prudent” issue.
If I stopped you on the street and you knew nothing about the case, could the following conversation have occurred.
Officer: Hello there, I’m a police officer, can I talk to you a moment?
you: Sure
Officer: There’s this kid whose been busted for drugs three times who we think killed these cats (shows pics of cats). We think these 19 cats were killed and left for their owners to find at these locations (shows a map of only the red dots where the 19 were found and a green line runs through the center). See this green line? This is the route that the pot smoker walks. See this one red dot here? An officer on May 19th caught this young man outside of the house of the owner of this cat. It was 2 in the morning. Why do you think any young man would be out at 2:00 in the morning, just walking around?
you: I…
Officer: anyway, the next morning this cat (shows picture) was dead, as was this cat (shows picture), here (show the red dot on the map corresponding to the other cat.) On top of that, we put a tracker on him and he was within 1/2 a mile of these 4 other cat killings and said that tearing cat skin makes a weird sound.
you: What? He said that?
Officer: yes, he was really excited about dissecting cats when we picked him up.
you: you’re kidding!
Officer: so, yeah, do you think he did it?
That’s all that’s needed for probable cause. That and of course a judge’s sign off for search warrants, when it comes to search warrants, but probable cause isn’t hard to handle.
“Prominent criminal defense attorney Mark Seiden, who has no interest in the cat case… says he’s surprised a judge signed an arrest warrant…”
News4 video report, quoting Seiden, “there’s no probable cause here to arrest him… there’s no physical evidence whatsoever that ties him to the scene, there are no eyewitnesses that tie him to any of these crimes, and the rest of this (the affidavit) is just conjecture and conjecture has no place in an arrest warrant.”
See video inset @ http://cbs4.com/local/tyler.weinman.cat.2.1073153.html
What are the “issuing criteria” for arrest warrant VS search warrant? Is there a difference?
There is a different for criteria, but the “legal test” is the same.
It’s the reasonable person test. Additionally, it’s much easier to arrest someone who has plead guilty to a minor drug possession charge than it is to arrest someone with zero record. The affidavit’s only “strong” point is the part you mentioned and I’ll admit is kind of weak, but it does tie him to the scene of the crime from 2:00Am to 6:00 AM when the body of the cat was found.
The only way it could actually tie him to the scene of a crime (TW’s presence within hours of the next discovery) would be if ‘time of death’ could be ascertained. As far as I know, they don’t have that information… just the times/places where the cats were found.
Not time of death, but time of discovery is still valid here. There’s a framework of time that limits the window of opportunity for someone else to have done it. The goal would be to eventually link 3 or more cases to Tyler’s short 2.5 minute stops for example.
Circumstantial, but circumstantial is actually admissible in many cases, despite Perry Mason style objections.
I see your point, but then I wonder…
When did each cat “go missing?” How long after was it “discovered?” So, when did it actually get killed? How large a window was there? and How many more are yet to be found, dragged further away by ‘possible’ predators?
::DueProcess says:
July 14, 2009 at 9:51 am
Are you aware that these cats were all old? 10,13 yrs old… The literature on outdoor VS indoor life expectancy is grim, with outdoor cats living something like half as long as those kept indoors. Someone else made an excellent point related to “age” –
if a person was killing these cats, what are the odds that they would all be “old?” wouldn’t the ages vary some? On the other hand older cats are more likely to fall victim to car accidents and animal predators.::
By reasoning that older cats are slow and are more likely to be caught by predators, wouldn’t it be safe to say that they could also be more easily captured by a human?
Another fair point. So you won’t hear me bring up the “age” factor again.
No, DP. I think you have a good point there, and one I am sure the defense will be using.
There are two things that crossed my mind, one pro and one con.
- Humans are trickier than most animals and could lure a cat by offering food or maybe catnip.
-BUT-
- How easy would it be for a human to even FIND so many cats? Animals have a distinct advantage over us there. Seriously, I have walked through plenty of neighborhoods and I have rarely ever seen a cat just sitting there in someone’s yard. Normally they like to hide under bushes or whatever. Most of the cats I have seen have been in motion – dashing from one spot to another.
So, how likely is it that this guy would be so good at locating 19 different cats in a relatively short period of time, in people’s yards at night?
I’m not saying that he couldn’t, but that seems a bit weird to me.
For the record, my husband disagrees with me about finding the cats, but he thinks it would be harder to lure them so that they could be grabbed. He pointed out that “cats are notoriously paranoid” lol.
And, my smart husband just mentioned another point that I hadn’t thought of. He has issues with the cat scratches. He says that anyone who was going to kill a cat could easily subdue it without suffering a single scratch. Scratches would be more likely to come when the cat is scared, but the human is trying to not hurt the cat.
In other words, what Tyler said to explain his scratches.
I get where you’re headed, but it started out with one cat. This first cat only had to be captured. It may have walked right up to Tyler. When he started torturing the cat, there was probably a struggle.
Cat “n” probably had to be either poisoned or sedated. Sedation does not always work the same way on cats. I’ve had a cat jerk bolt upright after being out for only a few moments. Boy was it a surprise on the way to the airport! What were his early poisons and sedatives? Did he try to use Sominex? In cat biochemistry it’s about equivalent to Paxil. The cat would have been mellow, but start cutting into it and you’re in for the clawing of your life.
It lends more credence to the need to get pathology reports, so maybe the solution here is to change the chants from free Tyler, to share the beef.
I am going to be lazy and ask how long a period of time there was between the first murder and the last? And, have the killings stopped?
Thanks for not busting my chops for not looking it up – I am making dinner, lol.
I’m from the area and can tell you that in the beginning it was concluded that the cats were being tortured and skinned alive. When the case began to get an increase in media attention and the reward was increased, people were asked to look for signs of scratching. They said the predator had to have scratches from the struggle. Soon after they determined the cats were no longer being captured the same way. Instead they were being shot with something in order to strike them down and capture them.
As for the cats being semi feral or feral. The majority of these cats were older family pets. They were tame and used to human interaction. Add some catnip to the scene and you’ve got yourself a cat killer’s dream scene. Unfortunately the fantasy ended when he realized his scratches would give him away so he moved on to his wooden spear and his electronic device (which I believe is a taser gun) in order to subdue the poor creatures.
Mazzi, according to the affidavit, eight cats were reported missing between April 1st and April 28th. The first cat was discovered on April 28th, and the last on June 11th. In an earlier post, Jason said, “A better argument would be that because Tyler’s incarceration did not stop the attacks (there were two while he was in custody), there might be some suspicion that they have the wrong man, but the police argue Tyler has an accomplice or accomplices, as outlined in the addendum of the affidavit.”
I didn’t see anything mentioning an accomplice in the original affidavit, is there another version containing this addendum that I’m missing?
Corymia, “…when he realized his scratches would give him away so he moved on to his wooden spear and his electronic device (which I believe is a taser gun) in order to subdue…”
Did I miss something? You’ve stated this w/such certainty but I find nothing about a ‘wooden spear’ or ‘electronic device’ in the affidavit?
DP, the wooden spear gun and the electronic equipment were not mentioned in the affidavit, but were included in the list of items confiscated from Weinman’s father’s home.
Red – Yes, in the items listed in search warrants, had overlooked that. Thanks. (posted to Corymia on this, below)
Just a quick fact…
I used to do cat rescue for my local shelter…and cats are nearly IMPOSSIBLE to catch with your bare hands. You need traps for the majority of them, and even if you do get within 4 feet of them they will haul ass.
Just something I thought I’d add….
Also, cats ARE notoriously paranoid….if they don’t trust you, you will not be able to grab them. No way no day.
There were a couple of other thoughts I had but didn’t have time to post earlier, lol.
::if a person was killing these cats, what are the odds that they would all be “old?” wouldn’t the ages vary some?::
Well, as Corymia said, these were mostly family pets, used to humans. It could be argued that someone who spent a fair amount of time in the area would be somewhat familiar with the cats and be able to determine which ones would make good targets.
::On the other hand older cats are more likely to fall victim to car accidents and animal predators::
This may not necessarily be true, especially of healthy, well-cared for family pets. For example, I have a cat that would most definitely be considered elderly (18), and I’ve routinely seen her outrun the younger cats. So I would think that what it really boils down to is the health and condition of the cat, not necessarily the age. Of course, this is just an observation based on my personal experiences.
Oops, replied in the wrong place! Sorry!
Due Process is a troll from Topix!
He is guilty. Get over it!
Ummmm… DP came in with a mighty big chip on her shoulder, but I think she has shown that she is more than willing to discuss her points in a reasonable fashion. Assuming that she continues to debate civilly I would take exception to the troll comment.
According to her, her initial attitude was because of how she had been treated on other sites. All I know is that she is welcome here as long as she plays by the rules.
On the other hand, I am not too fond of people who stalk people around the internet condemning them on other sites. If she is a troll, we will deal with her. If she’s not, then you make yourself look really bad.
Merci, Mazzi. Appreciate the second chance.
The chip was VERY large, surprised any of you listened long enough to sort between the battle scarred and the reasonable. I’ve since read most of what everyone has posted here, and relaxed a lot more (lol) I’m impressed with the level of intelligence here, the respect for differing points of view; I did not expect that. I “assumed” and you know what they say about that ;)
I think due process calls herself georgia view on another forum. Stick it to this hard headed ignorant bitch. She gives me a fucking headache, I gave up on her. Her newest gem of an excuse is it was all ‘older cats’ that were hit by cars THEN
I think due process calls herself georgia view on another forum. Stick it to this hard headed ignorant bitch. She gives me a fucking headache, I gave up on her. Her newest gem of an excuse is it was all ‘older cats’ that were hit by cars THEN wild dogs attacked & mutilated their injured bodies. Assenine & desperate on so many levels, let’s see all the old cats in Palmetto & cutler Bay crossed the streets at the same time got attacked by dogs at the same time & the dogs left them in from their homes in unison, right?
I would like to beat the brains out of Tyler with his skateboard & take all his ‘tools’ out his bsckpack & stab him with his own icepick & then skin his face off with his knife as he did the 34+ felines.
Forgot to mention all the old cats must have quit crossong the street & getting injured so the dogs stopped mutilating their injured bodies at the exact time shit face Tyler was arrested, right DP, GV whoever the fuck you really are, Tyler’s granny perhaps, who cares you’re as deranged & worthless as he is.
Where’s my comment that I spent 10 minutes to write expressing my hatred for ‘due process’ aka georgia vue ass hole?
Give Due Process hell max the cat, she wears me out.
I can say I hate georgia view here & won’t get banned awesome. This bitch moderates FB groups ‘supporting Tyler’ & anyone dare say he might be guilty is wiped off the group, banned & they don’t curdse or say anywhere near the things said here. What a stupid ass bitch, I don’t know what her motives are but I suspect she hates animals & could care less whether he commited these vile acts or not. she will defend him come hell or high water which makes me wonder if she’s daddy’s hired accomplice. If so she’s nopt earning her money it’s backfiring & she’s failing miserably at her job.
Anonymous, “I can say I hate georgia view here & won’t get banned awesome. This bitch moderates FB groups ’supporting Tyler’ & anyone dare say he might be guilty is wiped off the group, banned & they don’t curdse or say anywhere near the things said here. What a stupid ass bitch, I don’t know what her motives are but I suspect she hates animals & could care less whether he commited these vile acts or not. she will defend him come hell or high water which makes me wonder if she’s daddy’s hired accomplice. If so she’s nopt earning her money it’s backfiring & she’s failing miserably at her job.”
This is the type of breathless insanity that is moderated at the FB group I administer. This would earn an auto ban for language; w/o the language it would have earned a warning for attacking a member you disagree with. Unreasonable?
There’s a lot more I’d like to say, but “this bitch” is gonna keep her mouth shut. ;)
(should have be clearer: referencing ALL of anonymous’ posts directed at myself)
For the record, and for what it’s worth… I love animals. I’ve taken in stray cats, dogs, people… stayed safe by doing my best to avoid the rabid ones.
I don’t think anyone ever thought you were some evil cat hater, DueProcess…that thought never crossed my mind.
I just think you’re wrong about Tyler…however, thats my opinion only. No one has to share it. Some do of course, but that is moot.
Maelstrom, “…thats my opinion only. No one has to share it. Some do of course, but that is moot.”
That’s the biggest difference between this site and so many [too many!] others: disagreement is okay but people can still be respectful of someone’s right to their own opinion, hear their arguments, ask questions, etc. Thanks.
Thank you for saying that about this site DP. We’re pretty hard on people who unreasonably defend their position (as you had to experience, unfortunately), but when some one shows up with a contrary opinion and backs them with real facts, we try to treat them with the same kind of respect we would want to be treated with. It’s gratifying to hear that you feel the way you do, especially in light of some of the accusation our resident troll/thorn recently made about us.
I’m just glad I had the chance to discover it, Max.
It’s so refreshing especially after some of the awful experiences I’ve had posting anything on this case, elsewhere. Most don’t want to take the time, spend the effort to hear anyone else (you pose a question and they shout back something deeply intelligent like, “troll!” lol). How are we to ever get past the “media noise,” to dig dipper and discover anything resembling the truth, without discussion, without asking questions?
Anyhow, I’ll say it again: PYSIH is NOT what I assumed it was – the majority here are sharp, thinking, and reasonable – and you listen long enough to find out where someone is REALLY coming from ;) (folks who can’t do that, can’t be expected to be objective about any “news” story)
*deeper
DueProcess, I’m not excusing anything here, but you need to understand how angry you’ve made some people. Some of us are very passionate about our pets and animal rights, especially considering how laughable some of the animal cruelty laws really are, and I can see how your position could be mistaken for defending Tyler at all costs. Let me take out my crayon and draw you a picture: I think Tyler is guilty, but not because the media told me to think so. You think Tyler may not be guilty, and that’s fine. That’s your opinion. Neither of us knows ALL the facts, so neither of us can say with 100 percent certainty that he is or isn’t guilty, so I can agree to disagree with you. But – and here’s my point – if you present your arguments to me in a smug, condescending manner and try to shove them down my throat then guess what? I’ll either ignore you or you’ll piss me off. So, I think it’s not so much what you say, as the manner in which you say it. As my momma used to say, you can catch more flies with honey than vinegar.
I agree with your sentiment, and think she’s gotten a healthy dose of this over the last few days, I do honestly think she has been “somewhat” rehabilitated and has been reasonable in many of her concessions.
That said… This quote is false. Set out a teaspoon of honey and a teaspoon of vinegar and you’ll catch a much greater volume of flies, in the vinegar. I read it on xkcd and had to try it… and was thoroughly discouraged.
Wow, I had no idea!
It makes sense though…I know apple cider vinegar is great for trapping gnats.
More that “somewhat” rehabbed… have just finished bathing in both vinegar AND honey just to make sure!
Read my later posts Red, (I think you’ll notice a change in tone), and once more, I apologize for coming in “ready for battle;” when you walk among the undead too long, everyone starts to look like a zombie lol You are NOT zombies, and I am sorry for ever thinking you were. Mea culpa, mea culpa.
DueProcess says:
July 15, 2009 at 10:51 am
Corymia, “…when he realized his scratches would give him away so he moved on to his wooden spear and his electronic device (which I believe is a taser gun) in order to subdue…”
Did I miss something? You’ve stated this w/such certainty but I find nothing about a ‘wooden spear’ or ‘electronic device’ in the affidavit?
****This was part of the evidence file. Except for the scratches. That’s a theory that was discussed based on the evidence towards the end of his killing spree. All I will say is I live in Miami and I don’t just go by the media. But if you want it in black and white you can go here and read some of what they found….
http://www.bradenton.com/331/story/1565794.html
Thanks for the link Corymia, had just seen Red Scharron’s explanation re: the search warrants, had missed that.
As to the search warrants, isn’t it true that they took a lot of items that they *thought* might be related to a crime, but that were in fact irrelevant? (dad’s checkbook, etc.) Looking at the items listed, it’s easy to see where they were going with it but… catnip? Both homes have cats, is this item unusual then? I understand that the defense had asked the judge (last week?) that many of these items be returned to his mom and dad, that they are not “fruit of a crime,” mostly belonging to the parents?
NP DP, and yes, there were items that some may consider irrelevant, and they very well could be, but I think one of the reasons they may have been taken was to see if there’s a pattern of some sort…let’s take the checkbook for example….. say you own a paint store and your son was just arrested for defacing buildings using red paint. Interestingly enough, your replenishment for red paint needs to be increased the same time as the crimes occurred. Yes, it may be a coincidence but add that little coincidence to 20 others and you have probable cause.
I also believe they (PD) can’t really trust the parents. Therefore they took as much as they could to avoid any tampering on the parents part.
Guess we’ll have to wait and see which, if any, items yield what they’re looking for.
Hey Corymia, when I first read about the spear gun, I wasn’t sure what it was so I looked it up. When I saw exactly what it was, the first thing that popped into my head were the “puncture wounds” mentioned in the affidavit on page 9. Would being shot with a spear gun cause those types of wounds?
Red, I know there was something used in the attacks that took place later on. The cats weren’t captured and killed the same way. The media didn’t harp on this but I believe it was to prevent the tool from being discarded before the warrant was issued.
I just looked up wooden spearguns myself, and you can’t tell me that they honestly think that the speargun was used on a cat?
First of all, the thing is like twice as long as a bazooka. It would be kind of unsettling to see someone walking around with one of those in the neighborhood. I would call the cops in a heartbeat if I saw someone strolling along with one of them.
Second, they are designed for large fish and sea creatures. I am certainly no expert, but they seem to me like they are not really precise at targeting. The sites I have looked at suggest that they are really used for big-ass fish, and even then, they have to take care to land it in the right general area. (BTW – what a disgusting hobby – spearing fish… yuck)
Third of all, it seems like the power is so great that if someone were to actually manage to spear a cat by some stroke of luck, the cat would be dead and seriously messed up – broken and crushed bones and worse.
I am not saying that it’s impossible, but it sure sounds like an unlikely weapon.
I did a little more digging and found that the spear guns do come in different sizes, with some designed for small to medium sized fish. I actually did find one that was just 16.5″ (granted it wasn’t wooden), but most of the smaller wooden guns I found were around 26″ with a 24 – 28″ shaft. And I also saw some frickin’ HUGE ones, lol.
But yeah, if someone had one of the smaller guns, maybe the idea’s not too far-fetched.
Is he a noted marksman? I imagine it would be awfully hard to aim a spear gun at a fast moving cat, in the dark with any accuracy. Plus, the descriptions of the cat finds (remains) were: cut with surgical precision, head crushed, upper mouth bone broken/missing, genitalia missing, partially skinned: all consistent with what they find in wild/stray animal predation.
Was there an article re: puncture wounds?, repeated stab wounds? or was it simply the description of how they looked to the naked eye, i.e.: as if cut with surgical “precision?” This implies human involvement, but is also consistent with reports I’ve mention, all across the country (including NY currently, some 67 cats last I read.)
Why are you guys being nice to DP, she’s trying to come off as the new improved GV but don’t let this bitch fool or sway you. If she does then she’ll have accomplished her agenda. Man, I thought you all had her number, she’s gonna do anything & everything to plant a seed of doubt in your minds. Unfortunately by showing DP the tiniest bit of respect & listening to her pure propaganda she’s succeeding.
Noooo, she hasn’t changed my mind one bit, I’m just trying to keep a cool head about it. ;)
I think I’m being civil…but that’s because she’s conducting herself the same way. She has not planted ANY seed of doubt in my mind. I know TW killed those cats. My only wish is that the other guilty people go down in flames with him.
As for my civility towards DP I figure, “Why stress?”…. at the end of the day it’s much more likely that I’ll be on the jury and she won’t ; )
“…at the end of the day it’s much more likely that I’ll be on the jury and she won’t ; ) ”
Which underscores my valid concerns about the way these types of high profile cases are handled by the media. What happened to due process?, a fair trial?
Which underscores my valid concerns about the way these types of high profile cases are handled by the media. What happened to due process?, a fair trial?
Again with the media. I’ve already said I live in the area and I don’t need the media to tell me everything I know.
And no, there won’t be a fair trial. A fair trial would be he gets put away for a VERY long time which we all know is highly unlikely
Perhaps I’m misstating my concern. When I make reference to media, I’m including all the typical sources of “news,” where people generally get information about the ‘crime,’ the investigation, the arrest, the accused, etc. This wouldn’t include people who are an eyewitness to the event, those who have reliable contacts within the case (either defense or state), those who have a direct relationship with the accused and have reliable information as regards his/her character, etc. Such people do not turn to news, except with revulsion; they have “inside information” and see through the charade of innuendo, speculation, etc. So perhaps, living in the area, you are one of these people who have no need to rely on the “news?”
Even when we do have every confidence in our ‘more reliable’ sources, isn’t it still a good thing to allow the facts, the supporting evidence, to be produced and “tried” before we announce the verdict?
You lack confidence in the system because you say ‘if it worked he’d go away for a very long time, but he won’t…’
I lack confidence in the system because I believe that what most people know about this, or any other case, is terribly influenced by the biased press releases (handed out to members of the media by the arresting body with every interest in directing the public discourse) and then presented as news. I worry that this game taints future jurors. I worry that ‘the presumption’ becomes meaningless. I worry that the inherent protections in the system are bypassed by all this media attention.
Who can say who has or hasn’t be influenced? We like to believe we are not easily swayed (myself included), but what’s the reality? People living far from where you are have concluded he’s guilty. What do they base this on? Maybe you know something we’re not privy to yet? That would give you an advantage over all of us, even if you actually have such an advantage, isn’t it wise to ensure the accused is treated fairly, according to the law, so that if there is a conviction, it isn’t thrown out due to an excess of prejudicial “news?”
Me, I don’t know whether he is or isn’t guilty, but because I don’t know, I must lean on the presumption of innocence… “Better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer” was the way Sir Wm. Blackstone put it. Try the evidence. Allow the defense to respond, strongly! The State must prove their case, the burden must stay on them or eventually we’re all in danger (i.e. – China, the former Soviet Union)
As a footnote to this particular case: I can’t speak to a 100% certainty, of course, but I am comfortable at 99%, not because I have psychic powers, not because I know Tyler (I don’t), but because of everything I have since learned about the frequent occurrences of alleged “cat mutilations.” No, I won’t go into all that again but I will say that what convinced me that the S. FL cases are no different is the language, the descriptions, the community reactions, everything to the finest detail is identical in these cases. There is a pattern, an unavoidable pattern.
I withhold 1% of my certainty because the tests have not been released yet. Perhaps that sounds arrogant, I don’t mean it too, but based on what I’ve learned about these incidents, coupled with the tremendous support Tyler has (still standing by him, proclaiming his innocence), and the many friends, family members, and other adults in his life, who have conveyed their absolute faith that he couldn’t harm an animal based on their own observation of him w/animals over the years… Usually people who harm animals exhibit the tendency fairly young yet, Tyler has people proclaiming he loves animals, proof they emphatically claim to have seen with their own eyes. Just doesn’t make sense. Doesn’t feel right, something just doesn’t fit.
You know – it’s kind of rude to come to a message board and carry on a battle that you have in other forums. Seriously – we don’t care who said what on another board.
If you insist on continuing this crap, could you please take it to whatever board you came from? But really, it would be better if you just let bygones be bygones and talk about the case.
Thanks
Mazzi. Just because DP is trying to be civil now and open to discussions doesn’t mean she was like that from the beginning. No matter what board she’s been on she’s carried on the same rant that wild animals did the killings, but when she made a comment about people ganging up on her here because she supported TW and she accused the other members of this board of making her feel as if she couldn’t speak her mind that’s when I called her out. I found it ironic that on her moderated group she actually bans members with an opposing view and here she is crying foul for the same thing. I had to make the comment because BS and lies bug the hell out of me. Just like when she just stated that she’s never argued with me before. Again not true
She has, but it is what it is. I’m not losing sleep over it. It could be that she’s trying to keep her new image untarnished or she really doesn’t remember. Again it is what it is.
It’s not impossible to catch a cat, it depends on their personality. Of course if they don’t want you near them an elusive cat is impossible to go near. But with bait like catnip, (Like Tyler carried in his arsenil of’bait’ or food some will warm up to you right away. How do I know, I have rescued many feral cats in the country. And they don’t get anymore wild, fast or independant then colonies of cats in the woods. But some are just naturally friendly & can be coaxed to warm up to a human with food.
Also since most had homes with loving owners they had no real fear of people which made it easier for Tyler to ‘catch’ & the strays were lured by catnip & food. Also the strays most likely were used to seeing people come & go in those two subdivisions of Cutler & Palmetto Bays & may not have feared people as much as other stray or ferals living in isolation.
This is a good point and related to one I was trying to make earlier. It wouldn’t be difficult at all for a person who lived in this area to observe the cats at their leisure and pick out the ones that seemed friendly or trusting.
Jason’s advice to DueProcess, “…but don’t forget to lay out the baggage and prepare to respond about 30 times to the flaws in the original argument.”
So, here’s “the baggage” – hope it isn’t too long.
TO ALL:
All of the hatred heaped on this guy, before any one of us knows whether the accused is in fact guilty is what has made me so passionate about this particular case. Call it a “tipping point” maybe… we see more and more of this emotional manipulation in the media, someone is accused, the news screams, *case solved! bad guy caught!* and because it’s a heinous crime people start screaming for blood, all long before a trial date is set. It scares me deeply. Have we been reduced to non-rational animals, so easily turned into a lynch mob? What happened to the presumption of innocence? I came here thinking you were all doing likewise, I was wrong… several here ARE asking questions and I’m impressed w/the self restraint. It welcomes reasonable debate.
This was not what I had experienced elsewhere though. See “anonymous” below? I’m guessing this is someone from a Topix thread I was posting on. Started off there pretty much like I am now, but quickly got beat up for daring to suggest TW wasn’t guilty, for sharing what I had learned re: animal predation (and there’s a lot). The irrationality of their reaction, the venom turned on me, frightened me, it actually made me shake, sounds silly but that’s the truth. I could have just disappeared like the only other 2 thinking people posting had when they bullied them, but I wanted to get these possibilities out for anyone else who might just be reading.. I came back with the same force, didn’t used the same language, didn’t call them trolls, morons, accuse them of being paid, etc. but I can be sarcastic, and I was.
A guy posting as TruthDetector dropped in and the others seemed to really respect him… we exchanged a little and he was reasonable (we didn’t agree but we could talk)… others started telling him what a troll I was blah, blah so I asked him, “do I sound like a troll to you?”… He said no. He told me, “Topix isn’t a very nice place, you’ll need to grow a thicker skin,…” We continued to exchange thoughts and I ignored the haters, then one day he copy/pasted what I had posted when I first got there (a good post, before the viciousness began) and he said he’d miss me, he wasn’t coming there anymore, was starting a blog, said I’d kept things interesting… and he was gone. Over the next few days, the others started up again and I (stupidly!) posted responses to each one of them. Oh well, too late. They kept posting links to this site, I assumed (there’s that undo-you-in-a-minute word) that these same people were all posting over here… came to check it out. Made my first post and the rest you know.
I’ve apologized to individuals whom I’ve offended, I’ve commended the standards here (except for the language, but I’m older so…), and now I’ve given an explanation for my initial behavior. I hope that you will allow this to be put behind now. What you saw was the thick skin I grew, the outside. What you see now, this is me. I’ve seen crazy and you can’t fake sane.
correction: I believe “anonymous” might be Gina Anne, New Orleans… the only person I’ve banned at Facebook group Justice for Tyler.
anonymous posts, “I would like to beat the brains out of Tyler with his skateboard & take all his ‘tools’ out his bsckpack & stab him with his own icepick & then skin his face off with his knife as he did the 34+ felines.”
Sounds very familiar.
Ummmm….no…. you banned me too..lol…. In fact you and your predecessor banned quite a few people that believe Tyler is guilty.
I will add that yesterday you invited me back. However, why would I want to go back when the only person posting is some juvenile pseudo intellectual named Karl?
I have no idea what happened prior to my becoming admin., but it is a moderated forum w/rules. We do our best to be as fair as possible.
Uh there were a few people who said the same thing in reference to beating Tyler’s brains out with his skateboard. I read at least 3 different posters say it on FB. No I’m not gina anne but don’t disagree with the few comments I read. Also no one deleted me, I just noticed a lot of people got deleted & you took credit for it. Yet the gang from ‘peabody high school’ who told everyone Tyler was ‘a laegend’ and to go fuck yourself if we didn’t agree he was ‘the man’ and ‘a hero’ for mutilating & murdering animals didn’t get deleted, their comments are still their which means you don’t mind foul language & attacks long as it’s pro cat serial killer Tyler.
Are you referring to another Tyler group? What you’ve posted sounds like something I’ve read on … Tyler…Innocent Until Proven Guilty? I don’t think that group even has anyone administering it. I agree that that kind of talk is disrespectful, unnecessary, and doesn’t help further any debate whatsoever. If it’s on our group, I will definitely look for it and take it down, I’ll look this evening.
I did go through all posts, from the beginning and deleted several from early on – like what you’ve described (both for and against TW), if these comments are there, it’s an innocent oversight which I will correct.
Just checked and the “Peabody High School” kid posting the remarks you referred to is posting at another group (or was). That group has no admin. Checked our membership and he is not a member.
We do not have anything like that on our group.
Mazzi, certainly understand your point about not carrying some argument from wherever to this forum (in my defense, I’ve never argued with either Corymia or anonymous anywhere before), and maybe I shouldn’t be posting any response to the accusations…
Unfortunately, I did hurt my own reputation here (as has already been rehashed several times), and since they have come here to call my credibility into question, I felt I should respond. I have. Can I stop now, or do I need to continue explaining/defending myself?
Well, in my opinion there are a couple who are trolling you. Not Corymia or Red – they both seem willing to agree to disagree – but the ones who come on here to alert us about you.
I don’t think you need to defend yourself. I think that most people can see that you are reasonable and intelligent and just passionate in your beliefs. I respect that. But I don’t blame you if you can’t ignore them. That’s got to be sort of hard.
Anyway, I really wasn’t addressing that comment to you. I was trying to explain to Anonymous that she(?) looks like a vindictive stalker, and that we will make our own opinion of posters =P
I don’t quite understand why she is so worried that you “might plant a seed of doubt” in people’s heads. Isn’t that what being openminded is about? Or is it more important that everyone stay on the bandwagon, no matter what evidence or doubts come up? Weird.
Thanks for that and yes, ’tis a tad “weird.” lol
btw: I have something sort of lengthy I’d like to post…, some of my thoughts on media influence, the importance of trying the evidence, etc… any rules? (8 paragraphs, started as a response to Corymia re: the system/jury and it grew lol) I think it’s worth posting, but I’m biased.
Mazzi – Just realized how stupid my question re: lengthy post is! I’ve already posted several “lengthy” ones! Assuming if it were a problem someone would have informed me of it, so I’m going to go ahead and post it.
Anyone who excuses, condones or apologizes for Tyler is as bad as the cat killer IMO. They know believe me, I don’t know whether it’s pride that makes them so stubborn to the truth, they’re in to denying his guilt too deep now, but something is wrong with them. As an animal lover and advocate for ending abuse they are my enemy the same as someone like tyler is. With their mind set nothing can be done to improve treatment of animals, I wish they’d die along with the real abusers. None of them care & the tyler’s are sadists who don’t feel alive unless hurting an innocent defenseless victim who can’t fight back, what a shit eating reject coward.
Well Due Process, you can go back to your ‘high standards’ you suddenly deem important. I just wanted to say I see through you & hope others do as well. You are the definition of a wolf in sheeps clothing. Your new persona doesn’t fool me even a little bit. But hey good luck if you sway even one person to doubt Tyler’s guilt you did your job.
I don’t know what your problem is with me, except that I disagree with your premise. I have never used the kind of language, nor accused anyone, the way you have me. If you can’t abide fair and reasonable rules, if you can’t state your case without threatening to do God-awful things to someone who has so far only been accused then maybe your problem isn’t with me, per se.
Anyone can check every word I’ve posted, anywhere, and they’ll find someone consistently standing for the accused’ right to due process, and information which – I believe – seriously suggests – that “crimes” have not even occurred.
Let me add that IF it turns out that this young man did do these things, which I am 99.9% sure he did not (based on my own research and sources), but IF the tests come back evidencing his guilt: come to the group and see what I have to say then.
Please don’t assume that I advocate cruelty to animals because I defend someone’s right to be heard.
I’m curious. You base your belief that this kid is innocent because of other cases that were thought to be done by humans and instead were done by animals. My question is, in those other cases did they have a suspect that had the same type of evidence piled up against him/her? Did they find cutting instruments, duct tape, needles, etc? Were they able to place the person at numerous scenes of the crime?
In at least one case I read of they had four suspects. Prior to arrests being made, pathology testing was performed.
and let’s add that in the Weinman case, we don’t what the evidence is yet… we know what they collected, what they will test to see IF it is evidence, but there was no physical evidence named in the affidavit, and not one witness that he so much as ‘touched’ a cat. I find that strange with the highly alert communities, the police surveillance, etc.
sorry …we don’t *know* what…
I’ll say this, it’s not impossible for an animal to have attacked some of the cats. In fact that’s why out of so many they only charged him with 19. Had this been a case of, say, 10-15 cats altogether or even 20 (which I think is very high), I would be much more open to the idea of another animal being the attacker. This wasn’t the case. Plus there are certain things that have ruled out another animal in those 19 cases.
LE and several people have placed him at or near the area where some of the cats were caught or dumped. I don’t think they saw him actually kill a cat because this was always done in the wee hours of the morning and he only captured or dumped the cats in the area. That can just take a few minutes at most.
As for the highly alerted communities you’d be surprised. It literally took weeks for this story to really make headlines and still there were plenty of people that weren’t aware. Not only that, LE were working a tough battle. Just look at the comments made by some locals. “Glad he did it”, “I hate cats”, “Cats are annoying they shouldn’t be roaming around to begin with”, etc. – Do you think these people would waste their time coming forward?
I think that attitude along with the threat of TW getting a stiff sentence has hurt the witness list. At the end of the day, this is a middle class family with a screwed up kid. How many of us can relate? lol- Although I think his behavior is psychotic and frightening, many would again say these are just cats and the kid needs help, not a stiff sentence.
I have asked this before, and I don’t think I have heard an answer – have the cat deaths stopped? If no more animals have turned up dead since Tyler was arrested, that would be a pertinent piece of information, and would certainly reduce the likelihood of them being animal attacks. If they have continued, that would lead one to believe that either Tyler is the wrong suspect, or that animal attacks are a real possibility.
Oops – I see I missed some posts. Red said that Jason alluded to the idea that there were two more cats attacked while Tyler was in custody.
That is relevant, in my opinion. I hope that those cats have been autopsied and compared to the other cats.
I appreciate the detailed response, Corymia, and I’d like to address each point you’ve raised.
33 cats’ remains discovered altogether. Numbers of cats credited to “dogs” by Miami-Dade LE, stated in initial releases: 14; number of deaths TW charged with: 19. Concurrently, Lauderhill (50mi. away?) was experiencing the exact same “finds,” 17 cases total. Pathology testing determined all were due to animals, most likely dogs. To see the pattern presented in these other “mutilation” cases I’ve referenced repeated in a nearby town, (not to mention within M-D by M-D PD’s own early admission), lends credence to the possibility that ALL these type of cases will be found to be attributable to the same “cause.” M-D may have had pathologist examine remains, however, no press release thus far to indicate it’s been done.
TW seen in the area, not witnessed making contact w/any cat, wee hours: Being seen outside using cellphone past midnight doesn’t seem suspicious when we consider he’s 18, it’s Florida, and it’s summertime; even walking around could easily be explained if he had been at a friend’s house, was he carrying video games in his back pack? The GPS that puts him “near” (not at, mind you, but “near”): He lives in these areas, is it not normal to be tracked in these areas? (friends, parents, work, girlfriend, stores, etc.) Even the car mentioned in the affidavit (black car down the street from where police are investigating yet another find; this cat near the mailbox, by the road…), including it in the affidavit implies it was Tyler’s car and yet they don’t say that…? Cats being discovered nearby a location he was seen at? How long was the cat there for? Was it already dead prior to TW being seen? How long had it been missing for? If other areas were searched today with great care, how many more might be found?
As I’m writing this, I started thinking of the increased risk if a person was doing this: first, remove the cat from its area to some other place, then kill it, then bring it back to where you found it, or even climb a fence to place it in a backyard? Sounds ludicrous, doesn’t it? (and picture this person carrying a speargun to boot?)
Again, not to be a broken record, but isn’t it far more feasible that either the cat was struck by a car and dragged by a predatory animal, or just killed by the animal (although I tend to lean toward the first scenario because an injured cat is far easier for a dog to catch)? Dogs climb fences. What if the cat was injured and managed to find its way back into it’s own yard and was pursued by an animal that smelled blood? Why was no blood found? Cat’s have only 1/2 pint in their bodies, upon death the heart stops, blood flow ceases, the body is drained through injuries in a relatively short time span.
Lastly to the comments you referenced from down your way, about these outdoor pets being a nuisance and people celebrating their deaths? Sick, just plain sick. Where’s the empathy for the owner’s loss, especially if they believe a person did these things, they should be appalled not jubilant. They scare me as much as the one’s who go into terrifying detail of what they’d do to the young man who’s been charged here.
Mazzi, “…If no more animals have turned up dead since Tyler was arrested, that would be a pertinent piece of information…”
Another really interesting point, imo, where LE has a problem.
TW was taken in for questioning approx midnight 6/13/09 (at a party Sat. night). Earlier that same day (6/13/09 a.m.) Miami-Dade Animal control captures to stray pit bulls. They are on the news. The dogs have visibly deep facial scratch wounds. Animal Control states that “one is very aggressive,” that the 2 dogs had killed at least 9 cats, 3 Friday morning alone (just these 2 dogs!?), they further state that they hope the communities will be able to start relaxing now that they have these 2 dogs off the street…
When did the killings cease? After the dogs were captured, or after TW was taken in? Problem.
Just came across this site someone has posted on Tyler Weinman. Some interesting thoughts (doubting the charges), but the photos are what got my attention. If you have animals it’s hard to ignore, there’s an unmistakable attachment (affinity) to the animals in his life.
http://www.tylerlovescats.com/
I don’t know if he is a noted marksman, however, since the gun was confiscated from his home I would deduce that he would at the very least be familiar with how to use it. As for the cats being fast-moving, remember, most of these were family pets and used to humans, so it’s not necessarily true that they were running away, especially if they had been lured with food, etc.
The affidavit states, on page 9, “The cat had also suffered two puncture wounds, one in the chest and the other at the rear hind portion of the body.” These were found during an on-scene preliminary examination by the M-D Animal Services Dept. investigator.
I’d like to point out that I am not saying that this particular cat WAS shot with a spear gun; I’m just bringing up the possibility.
Dammit, replied in the wrong place again!
Not to be combative, just playing Devil’s Advocate for a minute…
“Dad” is a dentist, can probably afford deep sea fishing trips, probably is the owner of the spear gun… how are we able to deduce that his son was familiar with its use? (my husband hunts, my son has never used dad’s bow).
“The affidavit states, on page 9, “The cat had also suffered two puncture wounds, one in the chest and the other at the rear hind portion of the body.”” Does the affidavit note “cause” or once more simply imply it? Are the puncture wounds inconsistent with the canine teeth of say, a stray pit bull?
Separately, the problem I have with the testing question is this: if M-D has had pathology exams done, to what benefit is keeping the results secret? Doesn’t it seem that if these types of detailed tests have been completed, and IF they prove human involvement, that they would – at the very least – stand tall and say, “we have the forensic evidence necessary to prove these cats were killed by a person?” To me, at least, it seems more likely that a) they haven’t done the scientific tests, or b) they did them AFTER the arrest and the results do NOT support their theory…
Once again, I’m stating that I’m only bringing this up as a possibility.
“how are we able to deduce that his son was familiar with its use? (my husband hunts, my son has never used dad’s bow).”
By that same token, I have family members who hunt, I’ve seen them use bows, and though I’ve never used one myself, I am familiar with how they are used and would most likely be able to use one myself if I ever chose to. What are the odds, if the spear gun truly did belong to dad, that Tyler had NEVER seen him use it? I guess that’s possible, though a bit unlikely.
“Does the affidavit note “cause” or once more simply imply it? Are the puncture wounds inconsistent with the canine teeth of say, a stray pit bull?”
Again, what you see is what you get. The affidavit simply states that the puncture wounds are there; there is no further description of the nature of the wounds, other than their location.
“Separately, the problem I have with the testing question is this: if M-D has had pathology exams done, to what benefit is keeping the results secret? Doesn’t it seem that if these types of detailed tests have been completed, and IF they prove human involvement, that they would – at the very least – stand tall and say, “we have the forensic evidence necessary to prove these cats were killed by a person?” To me, at least, it seems more likely that a) they haven’t done the scientific tests, or b) they did them AFTER the arrest and the results do NOT support their theory…”
I don’t have all the answers, and at this point, no one does. I believe that SOME testing has been done, for the simple reason that these particular 19 cases have been culled from a much larger number. There must be something there that differentiates these 19 from the others. What that is, I don’t know, and why they don’t release the results, I can only assume that they have their reasons. From what I understand, they are not required to release anything else until the trial. If, as you propose, the tests were done and the results didn’t support their theory, wouldn’t it make sense to release Tyler? What would be the point of keeping him if the tests showed no human involvement?
Red Scharron, “If, as you propose, the tests were done and the results didn’t support their theory, wouldn’t it make sense to release Tyler? What would be the point of keeping him if the tests showed no human involvement?”
One cynical answer: reputations and costs incurred.
At this point, IF the results are in and IF they are not conducive to the theory (which we can’t know but let’s hypothesize)… Miami-Dade officials have to contend with the statements they have issued, the accusations they have leveled, the certainty w/which they asserted them, the arrest itself, the BIG $$ invested in the case, etc. I would guess that to save face they would be pressuring the accused to take a deal (ANY deal!) and fast. “Marathon interrogation sessions” with local teens have been conducted, no further arrests mentioned, so much for the “accomplices” theory.
The accused will likely be advised that he can take the deal or face a jury: a jury strongly influenced by the statements they’ve put out thus far, likely quite hostile to any defense, and TW (w/his parents, attorney) will have to decide whether to face people that truly hate him, to try to prove his innocence, risking the penalty if he fails to clear his name… or take the deal, leaving an appearance of some involvement in order to reduce the possible penalty/risk.
I wouldn’t want to be in such a position. Now, if they can get the physical proof that TW was not involved, that in fact ‘no person’ did these things, they would have enough to bury the prosecution and it might be worth the risk of a jury. Might not even go to trial at that point but then TW has the problem of people who will believe (because their was no trying of the facts) he simply got off on some technicality. His reputation is ruined, he is forever pegged as a “sociopath who mutilated cats.” They would have to sue, to clear his name, which opens a whole other can of worms.
Whatever happens, should be interesting.
I can agree that situations like the one you outlined can and probably do happen, but, as you said yourself, there’s no way we can know at this point.
Guess we’ll just have to wait and see, and agree to disagree in the meantime.
I am pretty confident that his lawyer would not take a jury trial in this case. Juries are much more likely to be emotional rather than looking at the absolute evidence and the letter of the law. A judge trial would be the way to go here.
You want a jury trial when your client has a chance of striking a sympathetic chord with them, not when they are all ready to lynch him up front. Also, jury trials are better when you want certain evidence to be excluded.
It all boils down to exactly what evidence the authorities have that they have not yet made public.
Knowing that we can’t know more at present then, hypothetically:
If it turns out that no person was involved in these “killings,” i.e. there is no ‘crime,’ and supposing that the DA drops the charges (can’t imagine any DA having that kind of courage after they’ve put themselves way out there), how would he clear his name without a trial? What happens? Is a lawsuit then the only option? These cities are protected w/limits to what they can be sued for, but how hard is to get a suit heard in order to restore someone’s name, get the truth out?
Can anyone tell me: what’s the easiest way to keep up with newly posted comments? (do you have to search up/down and just look?)
There are two tricks that I use depending on whether I am looking for responses to my posts, or just looking to see what’s new.
For new posts, I use the “find” feature on my browser. I use Firefox and it is under the “edit” tab. The search box pops up at the bottom of my screen, and I put in today’s date (or whatever date I am looking for), and then just scroll through. It’s not great, but it works. I am sure Internet Explorer and probably all web browsers have a similar feature.
To quickly find responses to my posts, I made an account with Gravatar, so I have an icon next to my name. I can just scroll down the page looking for my icon, and then see if anything is under it.
It’s not the best format ever, but on a scale of 1-10, I would give PYSIH a 7-8. It’s worth it =)
Thank you.
I’m on Firefox too and have been using “find” but never thought of putting the date in! (been searching my posts and looking for responses… slow and tedious) As for rating the site’s ease of use – high marks, the replies in connecting columns are nice and clean.
Just had to test this Gravatar out – see if it works ;)
(DueProcess wasn’t available, had to make a minor change)
I wonder how much mommy and daddy paid to have this website cut and pasted…
http://www.tylerlovescats.com
DP – please don’t insult our intelligence with idiotic comments like “oh tyler loves cats you can’t fake that”. He’s a fuckin sociopath. You are faking having a brain.
I don’t know who put the site up and I don’t care.
To me, as someone ‘owned by cats and a dog,’ having watched my own son grow up around our animals, I look at the pictures of Tyler “growing up w/cats,” I look at his body language in the pics, his facial expressions, and conclude, with a good deal of confidence that, no, you can not fake that. There’s no mischievous ‘wait until no ones looking’ expression, he is seen lovingly sleeping w/a cat that is obviously content around him.
If you see something different and disagree, point it out.
Can anyone explain away the large scratches on the serial cat killer’s back? I’ve had cats all my life & not once has any of them feral, tame whatever, wscratched me in such a severa way. My only conclusion is the cat was fighting Tyler for it’s life.
We did discuss this earlier.
It is possible that the scratches came when (if?) the POSSIBLE cat serial killer brought a stray cat into his house to protect it from the real cat killer, as he has stated he did.
Jason pointed out that it’s most likely that if he is the serial cat killer that the first cat would have been the most likely to have scratched him. Any future cat killings would have been more likely that he would have prevented the possibility due to experience. Even sociopaths can learn to refine their techniques.
So, really, it comes down to information that we do not have currently. How old were the scratches when they were found? Were they old and almost healed, or were they fresh? Is there corroboration that he actually brought a stray cat into his house? If so, when was that, and how does that match against the freshness of his wounds? Are there witnesses who saw him get scratched, or soon after it happened, and what excuse did he give them at that time?
This is all vital information that must be answered before anyone can come to a conclusion about the scratches. No matter what you feel “in your gut”, it’s not the same as real evidence.
OK, this is an excerpt from the affidavit, I shortened a couple words. How in god’s name could this be blamed on any animal? So animals have opposible thumbs & the capability to get inside a fenced back yard to dispose of the cat’s dead bodies, really? No fu**ing way.
Tyler Weinman Arrest Affivadit:
“On May 10, 2009 2 dead cats were found at 19741 Whispering Pines Rd.. Both cats were killed, one appeared to be posed with a slit down the middle of it’s stomach. Both cats were cut with a sharp object. The cats bodies were left in a fenced yard belonging to Marie QAkers. Ms. Akers did not give anyone permission to enetr her fenced yard to dospose of animals.”
Copied from an earlier post:
“Again, not to be a broken record, but isn’t it far more feasible that either the cat was struck by a car and dragged by a predatory animal, or just killed by the animal (although I tend to lean toward the first scenario because an injured cat is far easier for a dog to catch)? Dogs climb fences. What if the cat was injured and managed to find its way back into it’s own yard and was pursued by an animal that smelled blood? Why was no blood found? Cat’s have only 1/2 pint in their bodies, upon death the heart stops, blood flow ceases, the body is drained through injuries in a relatively short time span.”
———————
Also, there is no need for “opposable thumbs.” The terminology used has strongly suggested human involvement, “posed as if to taunt the owners,” seemingly “cut w/surgical precision,” belly cut open, insides spilled out, genitalia missing, no blood, etc. You don’t like my explanation but it’s still fact that in all these other cases (many different communities, across the country – and NY currently has 67 cases) everyone believed it had to be the work of “persons” precisely for the reasons you state. In every case, once the pathologists looked closer: animal predation.
I’m not making this up ‘to help Tyler,’ I’m relaying facts, noticeable patterns. Now in the Weinman case, we do not yet know whether M-D has done the tests, or what the results are BUT we do know that this exact same hysteria has struck many other communities and they ALL ended up being attributed to wild/stray animal predation once the remains were examined by pathologists. (even vets were fooled)
If M-D has testing that PROVES a human was involved then it will be the first time that I know of where there was absolutely no evidence of a human’s presence any where in the immediate area: no physical evidence whatsoever is listed in the affidavit, and where the terminology is identical to all these many other cases. Where human cruelty is to blame there is always some indication (shallow grave, chain, duct tape, evidence of fire, animal is pinned down by arrow, knife, etc) – something.
Your affiant immediately noticed a prominent red-colored scratch across the right side of Weinman’s neck. “I got them from a stray cat I feed at my mom’s house.”
Um how in the hell did Tyler go about feeding a stray? As someone who rescues domesticated & feral cats I swear to God this does not happen. What did he do hold the cat & shove it’s face it the food? Feed the cat lying on his face with the dish on his stomach? I mean honestly it might be possible but highly, highly unlikely.’
See what you do is leave a dish out with food in your garage, on the sidewalk then you leave the area especially if you know a cat is skittish. The cat will return to eat the food, it doesn’t really want you there trying to feed it. It knows how to feed itself. The stray cat story is a total lie. Can I prove it no, but am I 100% he’s a fuc*** liar who was killing the cats & was scratched because they were trying to defend themselves from a killer, YES.
A lifetime of having cats, rescuing cats & dogs I know animals a lot better then little Tyler Weinman. The only thing he knows how to do & I don’t is dissect & mutilate them.
“I got them from a stray cat I feed at my mom’s house.”
Why attach greater significance to this statement than just take it for a statement of fact, the same way as if I was putting food out for a stray I would tell my friend “I feed it at my house.”
Scratches: when asked about the scratch on his neck he told the det. that he got it from a stray he had tried to bring in his mom’s house so that it wouldn’t get hurt like so many others that were turning up dead. He was concerned and joined the FB group to keep up, just like everyone else… he’d been feeding (putting food out for) this stray, twice cops had approached him at night to warn him about the “cat killer” (possibly stated in some manner as to suggest ‘he’ might be that killer to which he would laugh, if innocent, as in “huh – no way!”)… so he asks mom if they can bring it inside overnight. He tells the detective about this and then goes further (getting “excited”) to prove he’s telling the truth, he tells the det. “just look what it did to my back when I tried to bring it in the house!” lifts his shirt to show proof and tells how the cat ran down his back to run back out.
We don’t know at this point but what I’m suggesting is that there is a reasonable explanation for everything that has been revealed so far, all of which has been the one-sided ‘interpretation’ of the detective who believed him to be guilty.
Mazzi with all due respect the theory doesn’t wash, cats don’t scratch in such a way that Tyler was scratched by ‘bringing them in’ or ‘trying to feed them’ no fuc*** way…no how. Unless he got hold of some particularly deranged animals or ones with rabies it doesn’t wash.
A more reasonable, believable & logical explanation is he was targeting, preying upon & in a viscous manner killing the cats & they were fighting back. Which is more believable to you??
I rescue cats, don’t tell me he got all those scratches trying to ‘bring strays in’ or ‘feed strays’ it ain’t gonna happen.
What is he retarded, how tf was he trying to feed the cats? You set down a fuc**** bowl of food for them. They either show up to eat or don’t. Was he forcing them to eat shoving their face in the food? How in the hell was he bringing ‘strays in the house’ when I save ferals I take my time & they get to know me. If it’s an emergency & they are hurt I have a soft carrier I put them in.
I take a towel to gently pick them up with & put them in the carrier. If they are elusive & don’t want you near them they will not attack like they did Tyler, you just will not be able to get near them. He lured them with catnip, food, then sprung an attack on them catching the cats off guard which is why they fought like hell & scratched him. Many had good homes & were not afraid of people. theyt would never have scratched him unless their life was threatened. The strays he probably poisoned or somehow rendered unable to run away.
Man you all, really think about this before you just buy any bull shit you’re fed. I know cats & what Tyler is saying his excuses just don’t happen & make no sense. If you know cats at all you will have to agree with me. Have I been scratched yes, my hands, arms once with an injured cat but very, very seldom. After 20 yrs of working in animal rights & rescue. I know cats & they bond with me because I understand them & I’m telling you Tyler killed those cats, mutilated, tortured & he loved it. A sadist & sociopath Tyler needs to be kept off the street away from everyone’s pets, he’s a monster.
I’m done here until after the trial. I love a good debate as much as the next girl but reading the nonsense out of someone like GV mouth when I know she’s got an agenda & people actually considering it to be possible is more than I can stand. You’re giving “Due Process” a platform to spew her filth, good luck with that!!
It’s really tough to believe that you have a gentle enough spirit to bond w/feral cats. Maybe you’re not like this around them,,, who knows.
Anyhow, you stated, “Have I been scratched yes, my hands, arms once with an injured cat but very, very seldom. After 20 yrs of working in animal rights & rescue.”
So try to imagine someone w/o 20 years experience like you, someone who is afraid that someone or something is going to hurt the cat he’s been putting food out for, let’s say it’s been hanging around long enough that it doesn’t dart away the moment he is near anymore, remains wary but might let hm stand there and watch if he doesn’t move – let’s say he manages to get it on his shoulder and attempts to carry it inside… What exactly do you think it will do? It will claw his neck and race down his back toward the still open door.
Totally irrelevant but out of curiosity – why are you so full of hatred? Do you think that you’re the only person who has ever rescued animals? Do you have any idea whether I have? You continually spew hatred at me because I dare to suggest less complicated explanations for what might have occurred in S. Fl, most of which is carefullt thought out and written as carefully as possible. You assume I have an “agenda?” Maybe you’re right. Want to know what it is? To stay rational and objective as long as I’m sucking air.
Why not take some of that energy and direct it toward considering other points of view. Neither you nor I have any evidence yet. Why not breathe until we do.
Thanks for letting me participate here Max, Mazzi, Justin. I appreciate the chance to be among others who reason, who wonder and question and don’t wish to condemn someone before the evidence is even in. Your fairness to me personally speaks highly of your standards.
I have posted a tremendous amount here, and elsewhere. I have felt driven in this case, and I can’t even tell you what about this case in particular has compelled me to find out more and more, to speak out as I have. I just felt I had to. (ever get that way about something?)
Anyhow, I’m really feeling drained and very burned out and I’m going to pull back for awhile – no more posting (can she do it? lol) — I’ll pop in from time to time just to follow the conversation but I don’t intend to post anymore until we get the results of the necropsies, or whatever comes ‘next.’
Okay, well thanks and keep doing what you do. :)
JASON! (NOT justin)
Burn out, what’d I tell ya ;)
You’re not even the first person on this site to call me Justin for some reason.
You did well, you’re smarter than your first posts suggested (a compliment, if a playfully back handed one) and that 23% of me that’s unsure of Tyler’s guilt, actually hopes you’re right, so I can congratulate you for your convictions, and apologize for the earlier snipes.
That said, if you’re wrong, I hope it won’t crush you. I hope you’ll still come back, burn Tyler in effigy for betraying your trust, however little he owed you, and then move on to something else. There’s a need for a “reasonable” public defender here. We have a good mob that shows up, a few hecklers in the peanut gallery and a good set of wits and groundling prosecutors, but the defenders we usually see show up with retreaded arguments based off of bad puns, religious misunderstandings and familial attachment. It was a breath of fresh air to see someone who was honestly connected to the case from a position of growth, and who personally adapted to the format some of us wanted to hear in order to “convince” not merely shout the opposition down.
You navigated the bullies well and hats off to you, even if I fear (in that competitive way of mine) that you’re in for a bit of disappointment.
Thanks for the high praise, Jason :)
Don’t worry about me being crushed if it turns out that I’m wrong; would rather defend someone’s rights and find out he’s guilty than to assume guilt and discover he is innocent.
“There’s a need for a “reasonable” public defender here.”
I will take that as an invitation to play the role if another case is to strike me as strongly. Thank you.
That’s kind of my attitude too. I would rather see a guilty person go free than to railroad an innocent one.
I almost never take a side on a circumstantial case. If there is strong proof, and/or a confession, I will vote hell in a heartbeat. But when it’s a statistical kind of case (the husband must be guilty, because the husbands are ALWAYS guilty) I get really cantankerous. Sure, 90% of the time the husband DID do it… but we have to understand that there is still always that 10%.
That’s why we have judges, juries, rules of court and all that. And we don’t convict people based on the Nancy Grace “shriek louder to prove your point” theatrics.
Once the court has spoken… that’s good enough for me. Till then, it’s all just speculation.
Thank you, Mazzi :)
Your ‘credo,’ as summed up here and expressed elsewhere, is exactly why I came to respect you guys! (once I stopped long enough to discover it lol)
I’m not ‘leaving’ (DEEP BREATHS, Evangeline), just pulling back to refresh and regroup after total immersion. I think my posts can stand on their own without feeling like I need to respond to each one of Nancy dis-Grace’s latest ‘victims.’ (what hold does she have on people?, she’s had enough ethics violations to choke the entire legal system, besides, I’ve never trusted anyone who throws the word “friend” around so casually…. “step into my parlor, said the spider to the fly…” lol). No need for me to post any more ‘case specific’ until there’s some news.
You guys are posting on several cases (some, the ‘headlines’ alone are more than I can bear… the evil man is capable of, it’s too much), which creates its own kind of ‘balance,’ but for me it’s just been this one and I need a break. Like I told Jason, I’ll drop in just to stay up on the “conversation,” but until things heat up again, I’m going to go find where I left my life at. lol
BTW: thanks for teaching me how to “rise above” without the 50lbs of armor ;)
Don’t leave DP! Like Justin (Jason’s evil twin) said – we kinda like you here. LOL
BY DAVID OVALLE
dovalle@MiamiHerald.com
Scalpels, knives, nylon rope with duct tape attached, computers, cameras and clothing were among items seized by detectives investigating alleged cat serial killer Tyler Weinman, according to court documents released Friday.
From his father’s car, which detectives believe Weinman drove during the killings, investigators took everything from floor mats to gloves.
Detectives are also examining Weinman’s boxer briefs and other articles of clothing found in a black plastic bag in the trunk of his mother’s green Volkswagen Passat. Police believe she was removing the items from the house when detectives arrived.
__________________________________
All the evidence hasn’t been released because forensics aren’t finished testing. I agree he might get away with it because so far it’s circumstantial. He’s guilty & all they need is blood, dna tying him to the killings, I hope they find it.
Cat-Carving Teenager a Sociopath: Detectives
Posted Jul 7, 09 5:02 AM CDT in Crime & Courts, US | Share Newser
(Newser Summary) – A Florida teen charged with killing 19 cats in his Miami community became so excited talking about feline dissection that detectives were convinced he was a sociopath. Tyler Weinman, 18, eagerly spoke of the appealing “tearing sound” of cat dissection. Police discovered cutting tools in his home and a long cat scratch on his back.
______________________________________________
According to the school officials where Tyler dissected the cats a deads animals flesh does not make a tearing sound. So was Tyler reminiscing about the LIVE CATS
Cat-Carving Teenager a Sociopath: Detectives
Posted Jul 7, 09 5:02 AM CDT in Crime & Courts, US | Share Newser
(Newser Summary) – A Florida teen charged with killing 19 cats in his Miami community became so excited talking about feline dissection that detectives were convinced he was a sociopath. Tyler Weinman, 18, eagerly spoke of the appealing “tearing sound” of cat dissection. Police discovered cutting tools in his home and a long cat scratch on his back.
______________________________________________
According to the school officials where Tyler dissected the cats a deads animals flesh does not make a tearing sound. So was Tyler reminiscing about the LIVE CATS he tore limb from limb before posing them in the front & back yards of their owners? Becoming so excited he was going to orgasm?
That sounds much more believable to me. I spoke with someone in their 60′s who dissected cats back in the day & he said a dead cat’s body will not make a tearing sound but possibly killing one will if you mutilate it as Tyler did.
Dissecting animals is disgusting & primitive when there are computer programs that teach & simulate the same thing without the blood & gore.
Good bye ‘due process’ I think they are being kind. You took this site over basically & whenever that happens it becomes all about you not the subject of the group. So imo so long & don’t let the door hit your ass on the way out. Just my opinion from what I’ve read Tyler’s Mama is writing a novel here. You guys were more fun & in tune with each other before she crashed your scene. Maybe like I’m doing but now I’m outta here awhile.
ROFL. You know she isnt going anywhere. She doesnt have that ability.
Mazzi I read on another thread about Tyler here that you think Peta’s ridiculous & Tyler somehow gets a free pass because of other many abuses going on against animals everyday.
So Mazzi you think just because there are other ills in this world, factory farms which I loath & I don’t eat meat all the other abuses in the world this somehow excuses a little fuck running around in the dead of night dressed in black with an arsenal of ‘tools’ knives, ice picks torturing & mutilating his neighbors cats & posing them on their lawns?
Why don’t you make a run with Tyler next time he does it? And if he gets by with this he will repeat. Then come back here & compare it to eating meat & feeding your cat friskies ok.
I’m a vegetarian & detest all animal abuse, I hate zoos too. Do I want to rid the world of all evil humans inflict on animals yes. But I’ll take what I can get one cruelty at a time we are working to change laws arrest dog fighters abuse in the meat industry. But these abuses don’t make & Tyler’s criminal actions less deplorable or against the law, it is what it is. Factory farming, vivisection is not against the law but I’m fighting with Peta, the HSUS Sea Shepards for the day we look upon all cruelty & unnecessary human inflicted death on animals as murder.
That’s a sorrowful damn excuse for you compare Tyler’s sick crimes to other cruelties as if that somehow makes his sadistic actions less serious. Do you have a pet? Let someone come over & skin your damn pet alive & see if you still want to play it down or compare it to the steak you shove down your fat gluttonous face.
______________________________________________________
“All living things love their life, desire pleasure and do not like pain; they dislike any injury to themselves; everybody is desirous of life and to every being, his life is very dear.” Yogashastra (Jain Scripture)
“All the arguments to prove man’s superiority can not shatter this hard fact: In suffering, the animals are our equals.” Singer, Peter activist author Animal Liberation
___________________________________________________
I’ve never liked like PETA’s militaristic stance, their hatred of humankind, etc., but your post has really nailed it for me. You, as representing PETA, have just moved me from dislike to; how can we get rid of this vengeful organization?!
The venom you’ve thrown at Mazzi in your post makes my skin CRAWL. I’ve spent quite a while reading through her (and others’) posts, on several of the threads here, and I can honestly say she strikes me as compassionate, empathetic, objective, and reasonable. Haven’t read anything that she has said to warrant the type of garbage you have spewed.
You end your post w/lovely quotes about how every living thing “loves life, dislikes pain…” following THIS rant: “Let someone come over & skin your damn pet alive & see if you still want to play it down or compare it to the steak you shove down your fat gluttonous face.” Wow, what a disconnect.
“Do I want to rid the world of all evil humans inflict on animals yes.”
To wish any human dead can in no way be considered a superior position to those who inflict harm on animals. To inflict harm is to inflict harm. Period. You’ve said frighteningly hateful things about the young man accused w/these crimes, never once have you prefaced your vitriol with the words, “if he did this.” That scares the hell out of me.
You hate people so much that you would revel in doing to him what you only THINK he has done to these cats — BEFORE THE FIRST PIECE OF EVIDENCE IS PRODUCED based purely on your twisted, preexisting hatred of man. With that same hatred you lash out like a wild animal at anyone who questions any single aspect of this case.
I don’t know what Mazzi posted to set you off but I am certain whatever it was was turned inside-out by a mind poisoned with hate.
Let me leave YOU with a quote:
“A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.” ~Jesus (John 13:34-35)
“Do I want to rid the world of all evil humans inflict on animals yes.”
Rid the world of the evil humans do… rid the world of evil humans…
I may have misinterpreted this one line of yours but I think it’s fair to assume, based on the vicious hostility of your posts, that the conclusions I’ve come to are not off base. (and quite possibly you WOULD be happy to rid the world of humans you don’t like – I’m sure your next post will clear the matter up)
Wait. WHAT? (Jesus… stay away for a few days and look what happens…)
What the FUCK are you talking about? I went back and read what I wrote on the other board and you are twisting and warping what I wrote. Deliberately or just sheer stupidity? And not even twisting and warping well. You are not just a frootloop, you are a failure at frootlooping. Shall we begin debunking your stupid post? Ok..
I did suggest that PETA was ridiculous for criticizing Obama for swatting a fucking FLY. (I do think they are also ridiculous and morally dishonest for some of the other things they do also – but I didn’t SAY that in my post.) I NEVER said a fucking word about Tyler getting a free pass. In fact, I SAID – as I have said consistently – that if he is guilty, he needs to be punished hard.
Again WHAT? Where the fuck did you get that? Pulled it out of your fucking ass? I not only never said any of that, I don’t believe it. Each crime stands on it’s own, no matter what other people have done that is worse. Period.
I was referring to a specific smug and stupid HYPOCRITE who said that killing ALL animals was wrong, because she is a vegetarian and she loves her kittys. I pointed out that she feeds her beloved kitties meat. Even a five year old should be able to understand the context there.
BULLSHIT! I never said, implied or suggested that anywhere or any time. EVER! Go look again, and this time wear your glasses and take off your tinfoil hat!
Kiss my ass you LYING loser! At least if you are going to be a bald-faced liar, you should TRY to do it with style, lol.
I suggest anyone who cares go read my comments on the other Tyler board, and see what a lunatic Evangeline is. I mean really. She needs serious help. Honestly anyone who knows me even a little bit probably doesn’t need to look it up to know that I not only never said (and WOULD never say) any of that garbage, but that I don’t believe it.
What’s really sad is that this is completely verifiable. At least if you are going to lie you should try to do it in a way that can’t be disproved in 2 seconds. LOL. Moron.
Mazzi – Not only did you swat a bigger fly than Obama ever dared, you have also made an outstanding case for the appropriate use of “foul language!” LMAO
And, thank you. I’m glad to be welcome here. Having found a place to call ‘home’ online; a place where discussion is possible among (generally) honest and intelligent advocates of justice, has given me new hope! Being exposed to the “Evangelines” for far too long, I was almost convinced the world had gone completely mad! Not here though! TY TY TY ;)
Due Process so they were right you can’t stay away from where nobody wants you. I won’t answer you because I wasn’t fucking addressing you.
No particular order:
1. You just answered me, three times w/7 more speculative rants following. (‘how many websites [I've] crashed? – have posted on two open forums about this – you?)
2. As to no one wanting me here, Jason and Mazzi have each indicated that I was welcome, and Max earlier allowed a fresh start and hasn’t said I was not welcome.
3. This is an open forum, people respond to posts.
4. I have (at least twice) posted that I would be checking out the conversation here – pulling back, not leaving. Compared to the numbers of posts I was making, I think it’s obvious I have done so.
5. Your posts are so provocative, your assumptions so broad, your accusations so venomous — it’s like a freaking magnet, a bad accident that I can’t look away from. What you post demands a response.
YOUR so-called EVIDENCE:
- the sharp instruments you’ve listed as proof of Tyler’s guilt are nothing more than items taken from his parents home, the majority of which sound like dental instruments: his dad is a dentist. (whether they prove to be ‘evidence’ is YET TO BE discovered)
- it was someone else who stated that two more deaths had been reported since Tyler’s arrest; I was the one who said that it was possible that the 2 pit bulls captured the same day as TW was (later) taken in for questioning that were most likely the ’cause’ of there being no further deaths. (I lean heavily on the belief that animals were the cause & therefore it is highly likely that deaths continue to occur, since the high alert is over they are just not being found at the same rate)
- the sharp/cutting instrument found on the ground, outside TW’s car night of “stop” — Any word on what that was? Any report of cops witnessing him toss it out of his window? NO. They were looking to bring him in for further questioning; a shard of glass on the road and a 1/2 joint would suffice.
- relying on one kid who is CLEARLY speculating about all the news about Tyler to condemn him? Are you kidding me?? What relationship does he have to the accused? Has he been close to him for years? Is he basing his speculation on news reports?
-TW was the best man @ dad’s wedding, so they had a disagreement about some music – so what? TW would have been 16 at the time, doesn’t sound too unusual. The affidavit: according to the det., TW said he, “depises” his dad. Until we see/hear the videotaped interrogation we do not know WHAT happened, i.e. TW could have said, “I despise what my dad has done to my mom…” You are basing far too much on this one-sided interpretation.
-Many who HAVE KNOWN him for years have stated emphatically that TW was very gentle, very good with animals… By 18, wouldn’t someone that’s cruel to animals have dropped a sign or two?
- Tyler Weinman is NOT Michael Vick.
- descriptions of how the remains’ appearance gave the impression of having been done by a human and why in cases of alleged “cat mutilations” this has proven an inaccurate assessment, time and time again, has been addressed repeatedly above.
EVANGELINE: save some of your hatred for the trial.
(signing off until tonight, as in “pulling back” from the constant posting)
A footnote: Miami-Dade Animal Control stats: 50-60 cats are killed each month by cars and/or animal predators. This was posted on Mayor Flinn’s “Cat Killings” webpage (updating the community) BEFORE Tyler was arrested. The entire page has since disappeared. I have a screen shot of it that someone (not me) with good instincts thought to grab.
I would imagine that cat killings would continue after TW’s arrest based on this statement alone.
DueProcess101,
Considering how you seem to be a rather passionate individual concerned about the “rights” of others, why don’t you google the WM3 case, where an inncoent man is sitting on death row as we speak and try to make some sense of that case.
I gave up on it years ago.
Maelstrom, haven’t heard of “WM3,” but I’ll take a look.
The problem is that I can’t take a cursory look at anything, (a lack of self-control?), when I have questions (about anything) I can’t stop until I hit a brick wall, or “crash.” lol Hoping WM3 doesn’t turn into one of those. If it does, at least now I have a safe place to express my thoughts among, generally, objective people. ;)
DueProcess,
Y’know that is exactly the answer I was hoping for actually. Because in all honesty I would hate for you to take a look at the WM3 case, shrug..perhaps even shake your head, and dismiss it. Now I know that you won’t have that reaction I am quite pleased.
The WM3 case is one that has literally almost driven me insane. I have researched this case for years, and it has pulled me into various directions. Fortunately, it has caught the attention of many people around the globe. Unfortunately, still no resolution has come.
By the time you read this post you’ll have probably already read about it….but I give you fair warning, once you go in and really start looking, you won’t come out the same. – Yes, that seems rather comical I realize….but trust me, this case WILL drive you crazy, and make you incredibly angry.
Let me know your thoughts…
Maelstrom’s: “By the time you read this post you’ll have probably already read about it [wm3]….but I give you fair warning, once you go in and really start looking, you won’t come out the same. – Yes, that seems rather comical I realize….but trust me, this case WILL drive you crazy, and make you incredibly angry.”
OMG!! How many others are there like this, here?? lol No wonder I feel “at home!”
It doesn’t sound comical at all, as a matter of fact that’s exactly what I tried explaining earlier… I am “owned” by the questions. Eating, sleeping, no matter – they roll around, some submerge, others force their way up, and I can’t let go until I find the answers! (the exhausting part is when the questions start raising questions of their own! lol) Your post tells me that you know just what I mean ;)
I can tell there are several here who know full well the hard work involved in remaining focused on FACTS, in refusing to take part in the insanity of the mob, demanding answers & digging as deep as you have to to find them, being willing to set aside the simpler emotional response long enough to deduce what’s really ‘what.’ (being right or wrong has zero to do with this process, wanting to know what is *real* is everything). The willingness to hear opposing views keeps it all working, keeps it balanced, (keeps us from losing our minds lol), helps us reach more reliable conclusions. Healthy DEBATE is what’s missing most anywhere else these cases are commented on.
Bottom line? I can’t tell you HOW happy I am to have found a group of similarly driven “OCD”ers! lol
WM3: You were right, I have taken a look… yet another case that appears to have been polluted by excessive pretrial publicity (which in turn is fueled by talking points/press releases controlled by the state)… was able to grasp that several people are actively involved and that gives me some peace; it’s the pretrial “manipulations” that gives me fits, the desire to prevent what appears to have happened to these young people… I will look deeper, later, after the Weinman case is no longer pumping through my veins LOL
DueProcess,
Thanks for the quick reply and your promise to take a deeper look when time permits you to do so. Honestly, there is NO fucking way that you can handle both these cases if you want to even try to remotely stay sane and lucid. Lol…it just isn’t possible.
There are so many blatant, just absolutely insane amounts of WRONG in the WM3 case, and failure so epic it makes the OJ Simpson case appear “fair” and “impartial”. The magnitude of the errors and calculated framing of the three innocent men in West Memphis will keep you awake at night, and cause you to literally lose any amount of faith you might have had in the justice system…such as it is.
Anyways, so yeah, when you have a little down time, or whenever…please jump into the WM3 case feet first, and keep me up to date when and if you can. Even if it’s a year from now.
Guess what Evangeline. DP is not only “wanted” here, she is proving to be an objective, intelligent addition. YOU on the other hand are an irritating, LYING hypocrite. I wasn’t sure what to make of her contention that she was being abused on other boards, but now? I have no doubt. Nice job. It must suck to be such a hate-filled person, eh?
Mazzi…Totally dead on.
While at first I dismissed DP as an odd duck, grasping onto straws trying to defend a cat killer, she has proven to be much more.
And while I am not swayed by her arguments concerning Tyler, she raises some valid questions, and seems to be driven by something much bigger here. She is bright and sharp as a tack, and one hell of a debater.
That is all.
Aaaaw! Thank you Maelstrom!
And now, with that nice smile you just put on my face, I have to go to work! Later. :)
Let Mazzi speak for his/her self Due Process you stupid bitch. I wish people like you were dead, the bad ones not Mazzi you fucking asshole. I was simply asking Mazzi not fucking you to address some issues I had with his/her comments.
Go suck Tylers ass, it’s what you do best, it’s apparently the only thing you do judging by how many websites you crash.
Mazzi has spoken. And ripped you down to the lying slug troll that you are. Nothing you say from here on will be anything except fodder for me to rip apart, if I feel like it.
You are liar. Plain and simple. And, once a liar, always a liar.
Oh by the way you are a fucking liar DP I searched & there was not 2 more suspicious cat deaths since the arrest of Tyler. No such bullshit, no link no nothing. If there were deaths it’s because of either a real accident or a real animal attack, those things will continue to happen with or without Tyler’s arrest.
One thing that hasn’t happened are cats being sliced, diced tortured & mutilated then posed in front of their owner’s houses by humans. Know why that has stopped? Because Tyler the sadistic asshole is sitting in his home with a monitor anklet on 24/7 & he has no opportunity to attack & kill cats anymore.
HAHAHA!!! YOU dare to call anyone else a liar? That’s rich. Really rich.
DP has not been caught in any lies, you hypocrite. YOU HAVE! Thus, common sense tells us anything DP posts is probably more likely to be true than anything you post.
Plus, you ignorant asshole, that information was first addressed here by Jason. Are you calling him a liar too? I would suggest that you not do that. He will eat you alive. LOL.
Thanks Mazzi, the following is not a slam on either you or DueProcess, but to fix some of the overarching problems with this argument.
There were two more cat deaths “reported” after Tyler’s arrest–they are not currently related and I have no hard documentation on them. They were mentioned early on, in televised briefs. They are not currently attributed to human beings. There was some initial speculation on an accomplice or accomplices to Tyler’s actions by both the police and the public spokespeople.
If I caused any difficulties with my phrasing, I apologize.
I still maintain that Tyler is in fact guilty of this crime, that there is more evidence forthcoming, and that the evidence presented so far is circumstantial, but I think anyone can agree that you can actually convict someone on circumstantial evidence, if there’s physical evidence that proves a crime was committed, and there’s no other way any other human being could have been present for all of the crimes.
Forensics evidence, is by definition, circumstantial(this includes blood work, pathology, fingerprints, expert opinion, and a host of the things that typically prove cases these days). It’s when several pieces of circumstantial evidence are grouped “successfully” together (one piece validating the other in a strong model of observation), that they become corroborating evidence. Corroborating evidence is going to be the burden of proof, outside of some magical witness or a confession. They’re going to have to build a model that says:
1. Only one person could have done this given the time line(an analysis of circumstantial evidence).
2. There was a psychological motive and precedent for this activity (circumstantial evidence built by a team of expert witnesses in psychology as well as character witnesses of Tyler himself).
3. Some damning piece of physical evidence that is circumstantially linked to Tyler. An implement that has traces of feline blood on it that happens to match one of the bodies, that was also found in Tyler’s possession. These will all be circumstantial, but they will prove to corroborate the State’s claims.
Jason: “An implement [of Tyler's] that has traces of feline blood on it that happens to match one of the bodies” — this would be direct evidence, wouldn’t it? DNA proof…
Also, to your point 2, “There was a psychological motive and precedent for this activity (circumstantial evidence built by a team of expert witnesses in psychology as well as character witnesses of Tyler himself),”
Some thoughts I’d like to put out there:
1) the psychiatric assessment required by the court before release (home detention) which concluded that Tyler was “not a threat to himself OR THE COMMUNITY,” and
2) the assessment of Tyler’s being a “sociopath” is not credible as it was derived form the detective’s *belief* that he might be one BASED on a conversation which the detective had had w/a staff psychologist who had described the sociopathic persona but had NOT EXAMINED not met with, Tyler Weinman, and
3) speculative assumptions on the use of the term “despises” during interrogation (Tyler said he “depises” his dad) are inappropriate until videotape of the 8 hours of interrogation surfaces, i.e. context… what was the question?, what was TW’s full response?, in what manner did he state it?, etc. This one word lead immediately to further speculation in the press, some of which defied logic:
“While he did not admit to any cat killings, he did disclose to investigators that he ”despises” his father. In media interviews, his father and stepmother have said they own several cats.” WHAT?! Seriously? (Miami Herald article, top of page)
4) further speculation based on his parents’ divorced status, and an “argument TW had w/his dad” at dad’s wedding… Too much stretching in all of this, don’t you think?
At 16, TW was best man @ dad’s wedding, @ some point there was a disagreement over the music… Doesn’t sound too “out there” to me. (side note: talk of his having trouble at school, leading to his being expelled [we don't have the facts, but for now...] — don’t most young people have a difficult time when parents are getting divorced? … schoolwork loses any meaning during this traumatic time in any kids life… )
Not even if they found Tyler’s semen, blood or saliva on a victim.
1. find the material on the body, have a report of the custody of that evidence
2. Match the material to Tyler (two chains of custody, one for the evidence and one for the sample from Tyler)
3. Expert opinion to prove the methods used were unassailable.
At no time was there a witness who specifically saw Tyler perform the deed–direct evidence. The direct evidence in this case would require either a witness or video tape or something similar, and even videotape would require some proof to make sure it was solid.
DNA evidence is fantastically accurate, but it still requires multiple passes of a test called variable number tandem repeats (VNTR). They sequence DNA across the genome to match things that would be likely to be unique to a population, then a community, then to an individual. Hundreds of false positives occur in this process, most of them are excluded through filters.
On the psychological evaluation, I think you have all good points. The Affidavit, however has a collection of psychologists who made the profile fit Tyler. They picked up a guidance counselor and a former instructor to tie Tyler to it(corroborate) and are going to add the interview comments he made that “seem disturbing” to make this stick. I don’t think the Affidavit convicts him, but I think it’s part of the blue print. I have not moved from my 77% stance, however, there’s nothing “new” on this front. I’m more listing what I think they’re going to use.
My primary point in that argument was to take the words “circumstantial evidence” from both sides of this particular debate. They were getting out of hand. Until there’s more evidence that corroborates the circumstantial evidence we all have been hashing over, I think there’s a good case for dismissal with the evidence on hand. I think, however, if this is like any other affidavit I’ve seen, then the prosecution’s gun is very, very loaded.
For example: Michael Gagnon’s affidavit didn’t mention he was on marijuana according to his blood tests enough to be considered driving under the influence for marijuana alone, let alone the alcohol. They had him at a bar, they had him with a BAC 3 times the legal limit, and they had direct evidence from the witnesses that saw him behind the wheel of the truck and belligerent at the scene.
So far, they have Tyler as:
1. Having tools that could have done it
2. A psychological profile that matches him because they modeled it after him (weak, I get it)
3. A long observational track that ties him to the scene of 2 of the 19
4. A pattern of cat deaths they say can be linked.
5. A convicted drug offender
6. A time line that doesn’t exclude Tyler
The defense is going to try to discredit 1 if there is no physical evidence on the tools.
2. will be challenged by Tyler’s defense’s own experts who will have direct access to Tyler for a significant amount of time.
3. They will challenge the legality of the tail and observation on a variety of vectors, but that hurts them in a judge trial and if it fails, screws them in a Jury trial.
4. You’ve presented a very good argument against 4. If there were no cat deaths caused by humans, Tyler wasn’t responsible.
5. This one is a hard one in our society. Over 40% of the population uses drugs, but its estimated a large percentage of those don’t serve as judges or show up for jury duty. (I think Mazzi is right, I think this will be a judge trial.)
6. To poke holes here, there has to be at least two events that Tyler needs an alibi for to show a pattern of weakness in the time line.
No worries Jason. I was not addressing whether or not the 2 cat deaths were related or not. Only that they were reported. According to Liar McLiepants here:
Oh by the way you are a fucking liar DP I searched & there was not 2 more suspicious cat deaths since the arrest of Tyler. No such bullshit, no link no nothing.
As Evangeline posted it, it sounded as if DP pulled the idea out of thin air, which clearly she didn’t.
Whether or not the additional deaths are related can be debated just as much as any other part of the case. And honestly, we don’t know enough about the case for me to debate anything, except to examine how he COULD be innocent. That to me is the crucial thing here. If there are reasonable explanations which would allow him to be innocent, then I think a miscarriage of justice has occurred. But, as I have said over and over – we are not working with all the facts, so everything is really moot at this point.
I’ll take a stand once all the evidence is available.
Like I said to DueProcess, nothing changed about my stance. No new info showed up. I’m at 77% and holding until the next slice of info. I just felt circumstantial evidence was getting to the old Perry Mason levels…
PM: Objection your honor, circumstantial.
Prosecutor Berger: Uh, your honor, circumstantial evidence makes up 90%+ of most cases, if the attorney would like to be more specific, I’d be happy to oblige him.
Judge: Perry, can you offer any specific reason I should not over rule your objection?
PM: My surprise witness is scheduled for tomorrow, they should melt on the stand in the last 8 minutes of the program.
Judge: Oh, in that case, Overruled until I dismiss tomorrow, when the actual murderer starts blubbering in front of Mr. Mason here.
Berger: Objection your honor! The Defense is leading the Judge!
Judge: Sustained.
Hope it’s ok to re-post this here, not that Evil-gene will read it this time either, but:
————————————————
Miami-Dade Animal Control stats: 50-60 cats are killed each month by cars and/or animal predators. This was posted on Mayor Flinn’s “Cat Killings” webpage (updating the community) BEFORE Tyler was arrested. The entire page has since disappeared. I have a screen shot of it that someone (not me) with good instincts thought to grab.
I would imagine that cat killings would continue after TW’s arrest based on this statement alone.
———————————————–
Police removed box cutters, several knives, ((hypodermic needles))??? and a metal dental tool, according to court documents.
So?
If my house was searched, they would find boxcutters, knives, a metal dental pick and a meat marinating tool (while not a hypodermic needle exactly – it looks like a huge one). They would also find guns, a pair of LOTR axes, a few fantasy swords, bottles of medicine, a pair of (trick) handcuffs, a few exacto knives, tire irons, 2 tazers, rope, hammers, screwdrivers, 2 police-type mag lights… shall I go on? I suspect that every single person on this board would have a pretty long list of things that COULD be used to commit a crime.
I have never killed anyone or anything. But if I was suspected of some foul play, and my home was searched, I would expect that many or all of those things would be removed.
Now, if they removed a “bloody boxcutter with attached suspected cat hair” or something, THAT would be relevant.
Once again, you are using NOTHING to support your knee-jerk gut reaction opinion. It’s even LESS reliable than your determination that he is guilty because he smirks a certain way.
This made me chuckle Mazzi…
I’ve got Make magazines, parts to a RepRap machine and personal CNC cutter that could let me print out any part I wanted–from something I could make melt into nothing recognizable thanks to that article from Make. A full dissection kit from my brief stint in pre-med, a first aid kit for humans and cats that looks like it came from Dexter’s lab, half full economy size packages of trash bags, duct tape, quick lime, fertilizer, fuel(solid and otherwise), electronics kits with timers, accelerometers and enough cleaning supplies to poison half of Raleigh. It would take months to go through the hard drives I have piled up and my drives are all secure encrypted and I’d rather forget one of those than write it down.
If I ever get accused of a crime, I have plenty of stuff to make the papers happy. Like you, I have the geek stuff hanging on my walls as well and my wife is an artist, sewer, computer geeky person as well, and her collection of tools and supplies staggers me a bit. If they go into the kitchen, we have electric everything and knives galore… Did I mention the half full bug out bags?
All that aside, it’s the cutting tool Tyler is suspected of tossing out of the car, that’s the most damning.
Okay, I’m already to go to work for a few hours and I have 10 minutes to spare, so here I am – reading again! LOL
Loved this “lists” you and Mazzi posted, won’t list my own, but especially love the “half full bug out bags.” (we’re all getting ready for whatever it is that’s coming, won’t be pretty but we’re prepared ;)
—
“All that aside, it’s the cutting tool Tyler is suspected of tossing out of the car, that’s the most damning.”
How is this “damning?” The only mention of it (that I saw) was that it was spotted on the ground, outside of his car, by the driver’s side window. No mention of what it is. No mention of cops witnessing him throwing it out of the driver’s window, or opening the door and tossing it onto the ground. Since there are no such statements in the affidavit I’m left to speculate that whatever they “found” was already there and probably nothing more than a piece of broken glass on the road. (technically a “cutting instrument,” right?) I think the purpose of the stop was to “find” reason to take in for questioning. I don’t attach any significance to what they used to accomplish that.
Got to go! (will check back later)
* all ready lol
If an officer finds a bag of marijuana outside of the driver’s side window, when he walks up. It’s as bad as if you had it in the car with you. If the cutting tool has cat blood, even blood that can’t be matched to any victims, it presupposes guilt and an attempt to conceal guilt. If there’s blood on that cutting implement, it will be one of the most critically damning pieces of evidence found.
If it doesn’t have blood on it, but one of the other tools does, it will still be critically damning.
If they can’t find blood on something he has… then he’s safe, but the tool out of the window is a very, very targeted element.
OK Jason – here’s a question for you.
Why do you suppose they called it a “cutting tool” rather than a “knife” or a “scalpel” or a “box cutter”? I have read enough hinky cases to know that verbiage can be very misleading. I am positive you have too.
Think about some of the things that COULD be considered a “cutting tool”: a pocket knife, a nail clipper, nail scissors, a piece of broken glass, one of those soda can pully things that used to be on our cans when we were kids (do they still even make those? lol)… you get my idea here. There is no such implement as a “cutting tool”, it is a generic term.
It certainly could be that the authorities are only giving out as much information as they must – and so they are vague about what they found, but on the other hand why WOULD they be so vague? There doesn’t seem to be any reason – UNLESS whatever they found was simply too damning (ie: a bloody steak knife), or too innocuous (a rusty butter knife).
I don’t want to start any bad blood about the case I am going to mention, but it is an example that many people are familiar with, so I am going to mention it. Remember during the Michael Jackson trial, when the prosecution “leaked” that “gay child porn” was found in MJ’s house? People freaked out over that. It turned out to be a collectible photographic “art” book from the 1960′s or something which included a few pics of nude boys. By today’s standards it was a bit too close for comfort, but in the 1960′s it was perfectly acceptable. If I remember correctly, the book was signed by someone, clearly indicating that the book was given to MJ as a gift. And, that book was among tens of thousands in his personal library. It amounted to squat. Actually though, it probably helped the defense win the case. There were enough of those “tabloid moments” that it was hard to take the prosecutors seriously.
It’s stuff like that that drives me nuts. Until we know what something is, it should not be used against someone. A cutting tool? Tell us what the “cutting tool” is, and then we can decide if it’s relevant or not. Till then, it’s nothing but a potentially interesting fact.
It’s the cat and mouse game. The Defense attorney asks his client careful questions that never, ever ask, “Are you guilty?”
He asks questions like, “What was the cutting implement they found outside of your car window?”
Tyler answers his attorney(maybe even says, “I have no idea”), and his attorney now has to walk this razor thin line as he prepares to fight the item. Was it a razor blade? Was it a pocket knife? Was it an illegal weapon? Was it a dental tool?
It wasn’t a piece of glass. It wasn’t a pull tab. If Tyler doesn’t admit to his attorney what it was, he learns about it during pre-trial discovery, and has to wrestle with it when there are far too many variables at large. When he gets the entire story, he then has to wrestle his defendant into the plea deal he can get, maybe not the one he’s been preparing him for under lesser information. That’s assuming the implement isn’t, like you said, something like the glass or pull tab.
If it was the glass shard or pull tab, the prosecution’s case is torpedoed. I don’t imagine a DA would allow that affidavit to be released with that piece of information on a case that will be tried in the press first. It would mean his job, and he’d take the detective with him.
Jason, “..I don’t imagine a DA would allow that affidavit to be released with that piece of information on a case that will be tried in the press first. It would mean his job, and he’d take the detective with him.”
As in, a real Nifong moment?
Some of these guys are seduced by the attention, they seem to stop thinking clearly, forget to double check something, that is, assuming they are ethical to start with. I know of a case, someone I know personally … very frightening how cops assume then work to make everything “fit” … by the time the DA gets it the press has already printed everything anonymous sources in LE have given them, people are going crazy, emails are flooded the the DA’s inboxes – lots of support for the state… must be a bit intoxicating to someone facing re-election. In this particular case, first court appearance, 2 capital felony charges… judge looks it all over then looks at the prosecutor and asks THIS amazing question: is that all you have? UNSUBSTANTIATED capital felonies?! (DA’s sweating, flipping through pages… he’s relied on underlings and hasn’t even familiarized himself SO confident is he based on the hoopla!). Of course, I don’t know the details here but it happens…
In the case I’m referencing they next tried to get an “admission” of sorts, terrified of facing a jury (who wouldn’t be?!) by taking some come of a deal that involved psychiatric BS… I KNOW him, I KNEW (as did everyone else that knows him) that there was NO WAY ON GOD’S GREEN EARTH… I told him that he had to decide but that if he could find the courage he should refuse the “deal” and call their bluff. Can you imagine the paralyzing fear?? He found the courage. He called their bluff 4 days before trial. The case was DISMISSED. All charges were dropped (course it took another 3 years to clear his good name!)
BTW: thank you for the detailed information re: direct evidence, earlier, I appreciate it.
You’ve got me there. If this is a Michael Nifong moment, I’ll owe you and Tyler an apology, but I just hope in my soul the DA is at least aware of what it will cost basic justice. If this case goes down because of prosecutorial error, every case they’ve ever tried will probably get another trial if not a terribly wasteful hearing….
Perhaps the worst case scenario for you, is Tyler being railroaded. My worst case scenario, is that he’s being railroaded and this isn’t the first time. My second worst case scenario is that some or all of the cats were alive, aware, and awake when Tyler killed them.
(I’ve GOT TO slow down! sorry)
corrections:
1st para — Of course, I don’t know the details here but it happens… (*here* referencing the Weinman case)
last para — some *sort of a deal, …
Jason, “My second worst case scenario is that some or all of the cats were alive, aware, and awake when Tyler killed them.”
You have a good heart, not only for animals but for people as well (noting your goodhearted response to Evil-gene re gluten-free, etc.).
To imagine something as horrific as a person dissecting an alert/alive anything should cause nightmares, if it didn’t we would be no better than someone who could do such a thing.
I love my animals, have rescued every one of them… had animals all of my life, even rescued (ok, stole) them from the middle school science lab upon discovering their empty cages when I went to feed them, then discovering them in the lab next to a big bottle of ether. Yes, ran all the way home with them, and no, even under threat I would not/did not return them, they would have had to put me in the ether with them back then lol).
Why then, am I not passionately screaming for Tyler’s blood like all the other “animal lovers?” What have I seen that made me think twice? What has consumed me about this case to the point that I can’t stop examining these other cases, cases that seem unrelated to so many others?
All I can tell you is there is a pattern, an unmistakable pattern. The terminology used as these events unfolded, the descriptions of how the cats reamins were found (what they “looked like”), the description of the wounds, to the finest detail… the complete certainty that a person or person MUST be involved, that ‘said person’ was a sociopath that would soon graduate to humans, rewards were offered, task force teams were formed, FBI profilers were called in, community leaders, vets, psychologists, LE all believed a person was responsible, etc., etc., etc. Suspects were targeted. It just goes on and on.
The only thing different in this case, the absolute only thing (if you cut out all the “noise”) is that in M-D they moved on an arrest PRIOR to testing being completed.
So, most will say, it’s possible that the testing proves Tyler is the culprit… Okay, but then there’s this:
In every case of human cruelty toward animals (every one of them) there is evidence of human presence either on scene or very nearby: evidence of burning, rope, duct tape, stuck to the ground with something sharp (still in the animal or discarded nearby), chain, etc… all equally sickening…heartbreaking.
In these cases of so-called “cat mutilation” all that is found is the animal, appearing to have been “cut with ‘surgical precision,” “posed on a doorstep as if to taunt the owner,” “drained of blood,” and every other description we’ve read of in the Weinman case.
In the Weinman case: all that was discovered was the animal, appearing to have been mutilated by a person. —-
If it was one or two things maybe I would have to step back and say, well maybe… but there are too many IDENTICAL examples: it matches perfectly.
Then add the obvious support this young man continues to have. Surely if someone in his large circle had ever seen him even look at a cat the wrong way, they’d be all over the news “confirming” TW was cruel to animals, starting in Kindergarten! But nothing.
In fact, the opposite. They continue to assert that he was ALWAYS kind to animals, that he “loves” animals. These descriptions don’t fit someone who does such things to animals as Tyler’s been accused of.
On one hand, everything fits, on the other.. nothing does, no matter how I might try and force it.
Anyhow, just take a look. I’m honestly not trying to change your mind, I just hate to see anyone hurting over something that might not even have happened. Please think positive until we know for sure, and if it turns out he was involved… think on something else.
During a May 15 traffic stop that led to an arrest for marijuana possession and driving with a suspended license, police also found a ((cutting instrument))?? outside the teenager’s driver’s side window.
_____________________________________
Oh sure most people throw cutting instruments out the window when being stopped & arrested by cops for drugs also suspected of being a cat killer. Highly coincidental, they’re picking on the innocent tyke.
Pet owners and police began discovering disfigured cats May 13. One pet owner, Donna Gleason, said her family cat, Tommy, was “partially skinned” and left dead in her yard. … Weinman, who works odd jobs but spends most of his time at home and unemployed, had been a person of interest for several weeks, Miller said. He was arrested Saturday.(CNN)
National Institutes of Health states, “Fire-setting and cruelty to animals during childhood are linked to the development of antisocial personality.” At 18, Weinman is long past childhood and if he committed this crime, this is probably not the first time he’s done something like this, but this is the time he got caught.
Yep, DP insists on calling him a kid as if that excuses his actions. His childhood ended years ago, he’s a man who’ll be tried as an adult. & hopefully punished like one.
And, once again, your tunnel vision twisted logic is staggeringly warped, and wrong. LOL.
Adolescence is defined as the period between childhood and adulthood, and the thought now, among psychologists, is that the brain is not fully developed until around age 24. So, full mental maturity does not exist until somewhere in the early to mid 20′s.
Legally, of course, Tyler became an “almost” adult when he turned 18, which was at MOST less than a year before he was arrested. (Almost – as in he is not permitted to drink, of course).
So, claiming that he became a “man” many years ago, is wrong on any count.
Since you will try to spin this comment, I will clarify – IF Tyler is guilty, then he should be held culpable. Being a man is not the qualifier as to whether he knew right from wrong. Even a 12 year old would know that killing animals is wrong.
So, now that we got the legal and medical definitions out of the way – consider this. Many 70 year old’s will refer to a 40 year old as a “kid”. It’s all relative to a frame of reference. So, we can add the social definition to the list.
Got anything else to slam DP about? Preferably something with some meat, and not just your irrational hair-splitting rants. Oh, my bad – that’s all you got! LOL
Mazzi – You’re my hero! lol Thank you.
Another excellent, reasonable, RATIONAL argument. :)
Tyler friends with a convicted killer of humans!
We are also learning more aboutTyler Weinman, dating back to middle school. Sources said he was classmates and friends at Southwood Middle School with Michael Hernandez, the convicted murderer who sliced classmate Jaime Gough’s throat in the school’s bathroom six years ago.
It remains unclear at this point how close the two were, but investigators said they were buddies.
http://www.wsvn.com/news/articles/local/MI124099/
Law enforcement call him a teenager boiling with anger directed at his family, but taken out on innocent cats. In 2006, Tyler’s father & mother divorced after 17 years of marriage. His mother moved a mile away from her ex.
(Most of the cat killings occurred in the stretch of area between the two homes.)
His father would re-marry. Weinman & his father had an argument at the wedding over the music being played. Sources believe this is when the teenager’s anger started surfacing.
When Weinman’s stepmother moved into the father’s Palmetto Bay home, she brought her *9 cats with her. “We have 9 cats in this house,” said the father outside the jail that held his son. He’s now home wearing a monitor pending trial.
What always amazes me is the attorneys who fight or represent these guys: animal abusers, pedophiles, rapists, serial killers. I mean come on, evidence is evidence and the lawyers know it so ‘want it hidden,’ ‘want it returned,’ want it ‘stricken or removed from the records’ etc. etc. I would love for the attorneys who represent these sickos to get their arse’s kicked and to be tortured themselves.
Michael Vick had an attorney…can you imagine? And the parents who beat and raped their newborn baby had an attorney. And this twisted man has a guy advocating for him to get him out. There is no cure or treatment for sociopaths or pedophiles or those who delight in cruelty. Nobody knows how to ‘cure’ them. There is no rehab. There is no rehab for Vick. There is no rehab for Wienman. Scientifically proven: prognosis is poor to nonexistent for pedophiles, animal abusers/sadists and rapists.
Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/us_world/2009/07/07/2009-07-07_police_tyler_weinman_accused_miami_cat_killer_a_sociopath.html#ixzz0LaspFRW6
According to Katy Sorenson, Miami-Dade County Commissioner:
“I understand that pet owners feel very strongly about their little family members. Animals bring happiness and comfort to our lives. So, to see them so violated and mutilated just defies all common sense and it’s painful for everyone involved. Thankfully, for this community, the terror has come to an end.”
Can I vote Katy Sorenson to HeII for her comment:
“…[Tyler Weinman] is twisted and depraved, somehow really not right as a human being.” – Katy Sorenson, Miami-Dade County Commissioner
Hard to even imagine an elected official, versed in the law, aware of due process etc… making a statement like this to the press the DAY this guy is arrested, before psychiatric examination, before evidence.
I think this type of self-promoting filth at the expense of a young man who could very well be innocent, is inexcusable.
Friend says Tyler killed cats because of his stepmother.
Weinman’s friend, Alex Falgons said “If he didn’t do it, somebody really framed him really good.” Falgons said he has known Weinman since middle school and suspects the killing spree had to do with his new stepmother, who recently moved into Weinman’s father’s home in Palmetto Bay with at least a dozen of her cats.
http://shadmia.com/2009/06/16/cat-killer-in-court/
From: http://michellesaysso.blogspot.com/2009/06/tyler-hayes-weinman-future-serial.html
(Quote)
“Serial Killers such as Jeffrey Dahmer, Ted Bundy, David Berkowitz, and Albert DiSalvo (The Boston Strangler) are known to have killed and tortured animals as children before moving on to their human victims. Obviously, there are many factors that lead someone to murder or serial killing, but that constant link is animal abuse.
It has been researched and noted by the FBI that there is a correlation between serial killers and animal abuse/torture. They have linked animal cruelty to domestic violence, child abuse and serial killings.
A study done by North Eastern University and the Massachusetts SPCA found that people who abuse animals are five times more likely to abuse humans than people who do not.” (End Quote)
Tyler Weinman, Florida teenager charged with string of cat killings, released on bond.
————————–
6/24/2009:
“We have not confirmed he acted alone,” prosecutor Michael Von Zamft said Wednesday during a hearing on whether to unseal Weinman’s arrest affidavit…” (quote from the Miami Herald)
************************************************
Possible explanation for cat killings after his arrest, which I have yet to find links for.
The details released in the affidavit include:
- One cat’s head was smashed on a sidewalk
- A few cats were slashed open and disposed of at a different location
- Some cats were decapitated
- Some cats had their groins mutilated
- When detectives told Weinman that cats in his neighborhood were being killed, he laughed.
What police knew and when:
- Weinman was first suspected by police around May 14. Just prior to the first suspicions six cats were found mutilated and dead. He was spotted walking through the Whispering Pines neighborhood of Cutler Bay around 2a.m., according to detective Dominick Columbro, who made the initial contact. At the time he was about a half mile from his home.
On May 15, police received an anonymous call saying Weinman had been seen in the neighborhood around 3a.m. At around 6a.m., the same morning, another mutilated cat was found where Weinman had been seen using his cell phone three hours earlier.
What police knew and when:
On May 19th, Detective Columbro received permission to tap Weinman’s cell phone and put a tracking device on his black Honda Civic.
On June 6, another dead cat was found lying next to its owner’s mailbox. The cat’s owner said she had last seen her cat alive around 8:30 in the evening. Neighbors had observed a car matching Weinman’s black Honda Civic parked facing the woman’s house around the same time. The tracking device put on Weinman’s car by police shows that Weinman’s car returned to the neighborhood on June 6th at 1:57 a.m. and stopped for nearly two minutes.
Later, on the same day, the device shows Weinman’s car returned to the neighborhood and stopped for nearly nine minutes within a third of a mile from where the cat’s body would be discovered.
Evangeline: The name Evangeline comes from the Latin word “evangelium” meaning “gospel”. The Latin word itself is derived from the Greek words “eu” – “good” and “angelma” – “news” (Wiki, I’m sure you already know this, just thought it was interesting…)
Everything you have brought up in these last 5 posts has been addressed earlier. Perhaps because you decided to hate me you haven’t read what I’ve posted. It’s all here if you care to look.
Here is a list of other case-related information:
- Police pulled Weinman over for running a stop sign on May 15. At the traffic stop police found a cutting instruments and marijuana on the ground next to the driver’s door. He had scratches on his back and neck consistent with those of a cat. He also volunteered to show officers other scratches he had received from, what he said was a stray cat he had been feeding.
- told police he despises his father and after being expelled from high school due to marijuana, said he didn’t need to go to school because his “grades were off the chart.”
- Weinman became excited when discussing cat dissection at high school and told detectives that when skin is torn from a cat, it “makes a certain sound.” He communicated to the detective that Palmetto Senior High was the only high school in the district that dissected cats. He went on to inform police the procedures he had learned in the dissection process, as, well, as the “tearing sound” made when a cutting open a cat’s body. He said cats were brought in from Mexico for the school dissection project.
What law enforcement know about Tyler Weinman:
- Weinman’s teachers said he was extremely troubled, frequently late and had a bad attitude. Refused to wear uniform, disruptive, didn’t show interest, on drugs.
- Expelled from 2 high schools, told detectives it was no big deal because his ‘grades are off the charts’??
The Link Between Animal Abuse and Serial Killers
October 29, 2007 by Problem Child Problem Child Published Ted Bundy | Jeffrey Dahmer | Killers | Animal Abuse | Serial Murder
Ted Bundy, David Berkowitz and Jeffrey Dahmer have more in common than just being serial killers. These three murderers are also connected by the fact that each of them tortured and/or killed animals during their childhoods. “Researchers as well as FBI
The Link Between Animal Abuse and Serial Killers and other law enforcement agencies nationwide have linked animal cruelty to domestic violence, child abuse, serial killings and to the recent rash of killings by school age children”, says Dr. Randall Lockwood (vice president of training and initiatives for the HSUS.
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/425882/the_link_between_animal_abuse_and_serial.html?cat=17
The SMIRKS in all Tyler Weinman’s photos including court appearances mug shots, comments around the internet:
–Look at the smirk in the picture, he shows no remorse, not even for being arrested.
–My true wish is for his legs to be shaved with a sharp instrument, cut open and then a devastating blow to his smirk-face head.
–There’s something so creepy looking about him. Who smiles when getting their mugshot? It’s like it’s a big joke to him.
–Like the old saying goes, a picture is worth a thousand words, and THE SMIRK SAYS IT ALL. Wake up, folks, this is NOT A CHILD! He is an 18 year old full grown man, and a cold-blooded monster at that!
–Retired Judge: 19 cats sliced, diced by this monster, SMILING during his mug shot indicate pride in his crimes, total & utter lack of empathy. Mark my words. Mr. Weinman is a ticking time bomb waiting to happen.
–Smirking in the courtroom says he is guilty. Who does that? If I were wrongfully being accused of this crime, I would not be smirking… I’d be scared & crying!
–The notion that a defendant is innocent unless and until proven guilty is a concern for the jury if Weinman goes to trial. It’s not for us. The rest of us are free to judge or not, whenever we want, on as little or as much evidence as we require. Smirking is abnormal when faced with 158 years in prison.
–This dude is scum, look at the smirk. Gets off on the suffering of another (animal or human, getting off on something suffering is SICK), violated 19 families, taunted them, and stole from them.
–He’ll be someone’s favorite ‘butt boy’ in prison. Maybe that’s what it’ll take to wipe that disgusting smirk off his ugly face.
***************************************************
Evangeline, I’m not a professional but, I’m thinking maybe you’re spending too much time w/feral cats… Is it just me?
–Tyler Weinman says: Look at how I’m grinning in my mug shot. I’m having a great time getting all this attention and I’m counting on you, the public, to drop the ball on this one and give me probation. That way I can go off to college in another state (my parents can’t WAIT to get rid of me) and start this all over again where no one knows me!
Random blogs about Tyler:
SAM23:
Skin the evil son of a bitch then kill him slowly. What a sick fucking bastard. I pray he rots in prison for the rest of his sorry life. What a waste of breathing space.
I’m sure his father’s business is suffering so daddy won’t be able to afford an expensive lawyer.
The world would have been better off had he not been born.
Rot in hell, shit face.
Random blogs on Tyler Weinman:
Anonymous says:
This little fuck needs to be blinded.
Give him a seeing eye dog to navigate through the world with.
Justice should always be poetic
Posted On: Monday, Jun. 29 2009 @ 1:15AM Anonymous says:
Everyones concern is him moving on to humans
Its irrelevant, hes guilty of murder
I love my animals more than anything.
It would be my pleasure to personally execute that little turd.
Random blogs on Tyler Weinman:
Cat Lover says:
To all of you who continue to criticize those who leave comments because “they do not know this boy personally” and their “opinions do not count or matter” I have this to say…why the hell would yours matter so much then??? You (Al) wrote practically a short story on your “opinion” and are the same as every other poster on here with an opinion. It is your opinion and in America it is called FREEDOM OF SPEECH! If you dislike everyone else’s opinion so much then DON’T READ IT and GET A LIFE! The rest of us will continue to opinionate as we choose and laugh at your stupidity for the rest of the day. Thanks for the laugh! As far as my “opinion” goes, no we do not know the full details until they are disclosed to us but until then I agree with the people who think this kid is an extremely sick individual and am thankful that he has been taken off the streets before anymore animals were killed and even more before he escalated to killing innocent people.
steve-o says:
BTW, to those few of you who think animals and pets have no value, a recent AP poll showed 50% consider pets to be a full member of the family and another 36% consider them at least partial members of the family.
That’s 86% placing quite high value in their pets. So, it doesn’t matter what you think, to them — 19 of them (actually more, several I’m sure were multi-family households) — they were loved members of the family. Members tortured and returned to them dismembered.
This dude is scum. Gets off on the suffering of another (animal or human, getting off on something suffering is SICK), violated 19 families, taunted them, and stole from them. Even if you aren’t a pet person, that’s THEFT. Anyone who steals from 19 people deserves to be locked up for a long time. Then add the cruelty aspect.
You few who think he should get off easy are subhumans, I’m not always with the moral majority, but this is a slam-dunk case — he’s scum.
Posted On: Tuesday, Jun. 23 2009 @ 3:25PM
I think even if someone isn’t a animal lover like myself, I am sure it’s plain to see that this guy is well on his way to killing humans. He gets waAay to much enjoyment from torturing Innocent defenseless creatures. So since he’s such a huge wimp he’ll probably move on to our kids.
If they let this piece of shit waltz out of there jail cells I will help play for a new home for him right next to the mayors house. I bet if this sicko was anywhere near a elected official he would magically ‘disappear’.
To bad someone won’t take him for a ‘walk’.
endchildabusenow:
What country are you from, where “elected officials” make people “disappear?”
Do you honestly wish THAT on America??
in this instance, yes I do wish for that. this guy should disappear for the good of our country.
endchildabusenow – And that’s all I need to hear.
Clearly, no hope for rational discussion here.
nope. I was being sarcastic in the post in question so I really can’t debate that I would like for this future serial killer to disappear. that just how I feel about it, no big deal.
You are completely misstating the case here. Unless I have missed a post in the past day or two, no one is saying to go easy on him because they were “just animals”. If he killed the animals than he deserves a stiffer sentence than he is likely to get.
What people are saying is that there isn’t enough proof that Tyler committed the crimes. Or rather – that the evidence so far released to the public is not enough. If the authorities have MORE evidence that proves he did it, then great. If not, then Tyler is being treated unfairly.
You see, we don’t convict people of crimes that we can’t prove, in this country. No matter how the suspect twitches or laughs or smiles at the camera. That is not evidence. It is only interesting from a psychological perspective. And, frankly people who use those signs as their *proof* of guilt, are not only shallow and ignorant, they are also dangerous to society.
Lets play a game of empathy. Suppose it was you who was somehow caught up in an incident that you were innocent of. And suppose that no one was willing to listen to your protests and to your reasons why you aren’t guilty. But instead people analyzed a video of you. Maybe you are the kind of person who laughs at absurdity, and to you – the situation was absurd. So, using that reaction, observers decided that you didn’t respond the way that THEY would have, and leap to a conclusion of guilt.
Would that be fair and right? I hope to God that you say no. And if you can say no – it wouldn’t be right for someone to do that to you, then you would be a hypocrite to say it’s OK to do to Tyler.
That’s all anyone is saying. IF there is compelling evidence against him, then by all means punish him hard. But if it’s all about speculation, body language and coincidental factors, then lets get more hard evidence before we lynch him. And if there is no more hard evidence, then we were wrong to accuse him.
evangeline you really hate this guys guts don’t you?
I hate him too. He’s a huge turd in the bowl of life…the one that won’t flush away.
I do hate Tyler “endchildabuse” & you’re right the turd won’t flush away. I can sense what will happen- he’ll get away with it. Why, because it’s circumstantial evidence though if you read the affidavit plus his history, behavior, other evidence it adds up to guilt. And there’s that smirk, the lies, body language, etc.
I hope I’m wrong but unless an accomplice takes a deal & testifies against him he may walk. The cats can’t speak since they are mutilated & dead & the other witnesses are also cats who can’t talk. But unless someone testifies they either joined him or that he bragged to someone he’ll go free & we’ll forget about little cat killer Tyler.
Then in a few years the future Ted Bundy will re-offend on more animals, maybe people & everyone will be asking why we let this ass-hole get by with being the cat serial killer of 2 counties in Florida in 2009? Like we always do when murderers, pedophiles, psychos & animal killers repeat the same crimes, why did they not go to jail we’ll ask?
Because not enough people take animal abuse serious & his daddy has enough money to post bail & get him off are a couple of reasons. But I hope I’m wrong & am glad when I read others like you can see through the bull shit of those defending the worthless coward.
MAX, am I allowed to post a link to the blog I’m working on?
(basically: a critique of media’s influencing role in our lives in all areas; criminal cases, national security, economy, etc… some posts re Weinman and Markoff cases….)
Sure DueProcess101, I’ll let it go in this case. I’ve certainly let evangeline have her say. It’s only fair I let you present your evidence. I’ll approve whatever you put up.
Thank you, sincerely, Max.
http://news-or-noise.blogspot.com/
To anyone who takes a look: Your comments are most welcome but remember; this is evolving, I’m still learning, and this is my first blog… Hopefully no one will beat me up too badly. lol
If you put this in your WP profile under ‘web address’ (I think)anytime someone clicks your name they will be sent your website.
I’ll check it out.
Okay, thanks.
Testing.
Mazzi I’ll adress your utter stupidity then reserve anymore opinions until after the trial. It’s my last posting here. I have my own stuff to care for. Mazzi it’s not being a fucking hypocrite to feed my cats friskies you dumb ass hole. We made this world what it is for animals. I rescue cats that others have abandoned or because they don’t spay & neuter have created colonies of feral cats. I live in the country & some make their way to my house looking for food. Do you suggest I let them die because I’m a vegan you asshole?
I have to deal with this fucked up world humans have made & make the best of it. The cats can’t survive on lettuce you idiot. If they could I’d have them on a vegan diet. I deal with animal cruelty & minimize it to the best of my ability in my personal eating, rescuing animals, donating to animal rights. I do what I can & make the best of it.
If the cats don’t eat what I give them they starve or go in the fields & eat dirty infested rodents, so either way something dies. I didn’t make the over population of cats an epidemic. People like you with your narrow mindset do moron.
Whoever you were addressing in that diatribe was not being a hypocrite it’s dealing with a fucked up world helping & making the best of it.
One thing is none of my cats or dogs gets beef, & all the food is free range & organic. Can you say you make the same efforts to help animals, people, anyone. Fuck You.
You did compare Tyler torturing & mutilating cats to feeding a cat a can of god damn friskies that makes you a clueless stupid son of a bitch.
Watch the name calling there evangeline. I don’t recall Mazzi saying anything that justifies the vitriol you just laid on her. If you can’t handle someone who can disagree with you, and do it as well as she does, then maybe you should find something else to do with your free time. Or try Xanax – I hear that it can work wonders for excitable folks like yourself.
You are not just a liar, you are obviously unable to comprehend what you read, lol. I NEVER made such a comparison, you moron. As a matter of fact, HERE is the entire post you are referring to:
So.. evangeline, are you ready to eat your words (or your Friskies)? Where is the comparison of “Tyler torturing & mutilating cats to feeding a cat a can of god damn friskies” that you claim I said? HUH? Only in your warped, twisted mind! IT DOESN’T EXIST!
Feel free to apologize now. ***tap,tap*** I’m waaaaaaiting.
Mazzi says-Lets play a game of empathy. Suppose it was you who was somehow caught up in an incident that you were innocent of. And suppose that no one was willing to listen to your protests and to your reasons why you aren’t guilty. But instead people analyzed a video of you. Maybe you are the kind of person who laughs at absurdity, and to you – the situation was absurd. So, using that reaction, observers decided that you didn’t respond the way that THEY would have, and leap to a conclusion of guilt.
*****************************
MAZZI YOU CLUELESS TWIT #1– is I wouldn’t be smiling/smirking in my mugshots/arrest photos. I wouldn’t be volunteering gleefully to show off my scratches TO COPS on neck my back-pulling up my shirt saying a ‘stray did it’ while feeding. That so far is the most unbelievable heaping pile of stink I heard from his ugly lying mouth. Just doesn’t happen trying to ‘feed a cat’ unless he had the food on his back & was shoving the cat under his shirt trying to force it. No way no, no, no!!
These cats were being attacked, fighting for their lives. As a rescuer it just doesn’t happen trying to feed any kind of fucking cat. Even your average cat owner knows better than this, it’s laughable. Wake up have you ever had a cat? Anyone who has know that’s bullshit & he’s the one who tortured & killed them.
Don’t get BIG ASS SCRATCHES ‘feeding fucking cats” PERIOD!!! ONE THING I DON’T KNOW IS HOW HE KILLED THEM SINCE IN THAT AREA HE’S THE EXPERT NOT ME SO THE SCRATCHES WERE FROM HOWEVER HE WAS HOLDING THEN TO MUTILATE/KILL!!
Cat owners- name times you’ve gotten HUGE SCRATCHES on your body ‘feeding a cat’ be it stray or not? They just RUN THE FUCK AWAY if they don’t want to be around you or the food. There might be a time an odd thing happened but come on, say this happens in the normal feeding of any cat & I’ll call you a god damn fucking shit faced liar, don’t give a fuck who you are.
NOW I’M DONE YOU ARE NOTHING BUT INFECTIOUS HUMAN WASTE, PATHETIC EXCUSES FOR THIS MONSTER, WHY? WHO CARES YOU’RE A DICK HEAD THAT’S ALL I NEED TO KNOW.
You really are dense aren’t you? I mean, of the solid block of concrete inside your cranium variety. Nothing anyone says will get through to you will it?
I will say it slowly, so even you can understand. Tyler said that he was trying to bring the stray cat that he feeds into his house, to protect it from the “cat murderer”. NOT that he was trying to feed a cat. Those few little words make a big bunch of difference.
Is it the truth? Who knows. But you can’t discredit the story when you aren’t even TELLING the right story, lol.
Oooooh, she’s yelling now. She must really really mean it. Or she is simply hysterical. Whatever. I hope she’s not lying about leaving, like she has lied about everything else. /waves bye bye
Mazzi – Evil-gene finally messed up lol It was the “infectious human waste” spiel that exposed her identity! This IS the one (and only) person I’ve had to ban on the Facebook group, Justice for Tyler. Out of almost 700 members she was the only one that could not understand responses or respect the clearly posted “member” rules.
I give you “Gina Anne, New Orleans,” the macabre people hater:
http://www.facebook.com/georgia.view?ref=profile#/gina.anne3?ref=sgm&__a=1
Personally I feel a whole let better knowing that there aren’t TWO of her lol ;)
HE STARTED MAX I WON’T BE BACK SO RELAX!
That’s MS. Mazzi to you, loser.
If you must delete me max can you just edit out the curses, I want mazzi to see what I wrote?? I like you Max thanks & sorry when I come bavck I’ll be good in Oct. after the trial.
I don’t delete comments unless they’re racist, homophobic, or harassing in nature. But you may not like the response you get when Mazzi does see them. :>)
I seriously feel bad for Due Process now. No wonder she had such a big chip ion her should when she came here – having to deal with this crazy-ass nutjob!
This evangeline bitch is on my shit list. I don’t care what names she wants to CALL me, but she lied about, and twisted my words, and that is an unforgivable sin.
As easy as I am to get along with (heh – unless you are a troll), when people fuck with the words I write, I just lose my patience.
I’m on Paxil, my husband says it’s the only thing that calms me down & allows me to deal with people especially ones I don’t like. Allergic to Xanax but thanks for the advice.
LOL – At least you can take a joke. You definitely get points for that.
I seriously don’t think she meant it as a joke, Max. But whatever – it doesn’t seem to help. She probably needs Librium, or some electro-shock therapy.
Mazzi/Max – from my own personal experience with Gina Anne/Evil-gene, I’d have to agree with Mazzi that this was NOT said in “humor,” but was more likely a statement of fact. lol
We all say things online being anonymous. Would I insult someone like this to their face? No except Tyler himself. I’m an in control young woman. Most people say I’m a peach. so easy to call people crazy when you have no argument, right due process? You have a bad habit of doing it here & every other tyler website.
I’m nice in control & well liked, online not always so much when dealing with people like Mazzi & DP, they beg for insults.
It’s hard for you to separate the disagreement from the anger.
I have this pile of anger in my heart and soul over these attacks as well, but I don’t have the same driving need to beat people into the ground on this one.
I love cats evangeline. My current oldest turned 14, and I’ve had him since he was 1. Our youngest is 2, and we rescued her through Marley’s cats, a local rescue. I’ve had cats my entire life, and from the playful scratches on my hands to the not so playful scratches on my face, back and arms most of which I got trying to use a piller or an eye-dropper, or simply because the cat misunderstood my reactions, are not sign of some criminal intent on my part. I agree with you, the story sounds far fetched, that simply feeding a stray could result in scratches across your back, but I understand why DP and Mazzi are so adamant in their arguments.
It’s not that they are not going to be extremely angry when and/or if the trial comes out with a guilty verdict. They’re going to hate this scum bag with just as much pain in their eyes and hearts. If the details come out that he vivisected these cats, there will be calls for blood rivaling those on Cheyenne Cherry’s page on this site.
The issue is that thus far, given the same information you see, they cannot convict. In their mind, there’s a different set of evidence. They’re looking at cases that have been flubbed. They’re doubting authority. They’re assuming misunderstanding. They’re hoping for the best.
You and I think this is the worst.
But we do not and will not agree on everything.
I have to eat a gluten free diet. On top of that I eat almost 4500 calories a day, and right now, I’m still losing weight. I can stand to lose a few pounds, but not much more. Not at the rate I’m going.
I could eat masses of vegetables, choke down some tofu, as long as they didn’t sneak in some wheat filler to make it stick together, and even stick mostly to seafood and fish, but calorie for calorie, I’d come up short. My Maternal grandparents had a farm, and I’ve helped kill chickens and hogs, and I believe in the eating of good beef for more than just the evolutionary reasons. We differ in opinion, and you’d find it ridiculously hard to switch me to only gluten free pasta, rice bread and tofu, from the already limited diet I’m on.
Until more information comes out. Changing DueProcess and Mazzi’s mind will be next to impossible, not because they can’t see things you’ve seen, because they’ve seen things you can’t see. This isn’t the arguments with trolls we’ve been having, where one troll or another demands more respect because he thinks he’s owed some sort of respect or authority, or even a fair hearing, this is a disagreement that’s been hashed out, reasonably and ferociously until we’re stuck with only a few points left to toss around.
Everyone here will be watching, waiting, and some of us will be hoping, that the new information isn’t any scarier or disgusting than it already is, but whatever happens, grab onto the anger. Set it aside for now, and realize that the angriest person in any argument is the one who loses.
For the record, Jason, I love cats. I have two snuggly babies, Buster and Mikey. Buster is a long haired white cat with blue eyes (not deaf!) and Mikey is covered with dark gray velvet with little white booties and a white tuxedo on.
They never go outside. Ever. Because I worry about what could happen to them. They are a part of my family and if anyone harmed them, I would see it as murder.
I have never ever said anything that even insinuates that killing pets is not as bad as killing people. But I am sure you know that.
As far as Tyler goes, I have NO position. And I have said that all along. None. Nada. I don’t know if he could have, if he is capable of, or if he is guilty of killing cats. I also have no idea if he is innocent. There is simply not enough information to make an informed decision yet.
But, that said – I cannot stand by and listen to people condemning the guy with the few facts we have. I feel that it’s necessary to try and inject the other possible interpretations of the issue. Ya know.. openminded… both sides of the issue, and all that.lol.
So, honestly, I really won’t care if Tyler is found guilty or innocent, so long as he gets a fair trial. And, if he gets a fair trial and the verdict is guilty, you are absolutely right, I will be screaming for justice.
But if he is found innocent? I will be rubbing a certain LIAR’S *cough* Evangeline *cough* in it. Yeah, I am juvenile and petty, but a gal’s gotta have some fun, right?
I don’t doubt you love your cats Mazzi. I just got the impression evangeline was assuming that because someone disagreed with her, they hated cats and didn’t have a brain. That’s a pretty emotional leap.
I was trying to show my empathy for her anger, my sympathy for her position and the bridge to where you and DueProcess are, and why you two should be respected.
Then I got into the segue of trying to shift the argument to her vegan heresy… Just kidding, I really am scared of some of my Vegan friends. If it weren’t for the fact that I know which of my friends is going to kill me, if one of them will, I’d be nervous about these Vegans.
I know, sweetie! I just wanted to get that fact out there, but didn’t want to say it in response to Evangeline. I really didn’t want it to sound like a “some of my best friends are (black, gay, whatever)” moment.
I think Evangeline has some serious issues, and none that an exercise in reasoning will help with. She seems to have this whole thing figured out, based on some smirks (Hello? He’s a dentist’s kid, with a perma-smile. What happens when a person with a perma-smile is scared or sad? Bingo – a smirk!) and her knee-jerk gut feelings.
I get the impression that if there was irrefutable proof that Tyler could not have possibly killed the cats, that she would refuse to see it, and would blame me and DP for him getting off, lol.
Well, unlike you, I am who I am. I am the same online as I am in real life. I would tell you to your face that you are a pathetically shallow-minded loser. Luckily wouldn’t have to, because as you said, in so many words, you are only so brave online and wouldn’t dare say those lies to my face. You are not only a liar and a hypocrite, you are a phoney too.
Keep telling yourself that you are nice and in control and well liked… I’m sure it takes the edge off the fact that you are really a hateful, spiteful hysterical pain in the neck. LOL.
Sorry Mazzi, I thought she was someone who could be salvaged. I thought she was just overly antagonized elsewhere and just misplacing her rage on you.
I understand completely Jason. I thought the same at first. Like with stapler, when you are the specific target, you tend to see it sooner. If you recall, with him, I let him go a few extra posts after you had him pegged, lol.
Again Mazzi misses the whole point. They found OJ innocent. It’s not if they find Tyler guilty, if you read my comments I believe he’s going to go free. So Mazzi you base every guilt or innocent person on the trial?? You must not have a thought process of your own. I know he’s guilty. I also know it’s circumstantial evidence right now which most cases are tried on but it’s still harder to prove with no strong evidence. The forensics that haven’t been released yet might provide us with the dna it takes to convcict Tyler, I hope.
You missed the whole point of the debate, he’s guilty all right but what makes it worse is when people like him, OJ, Ted Bundy, Jeffrey Dahmer are allowed back on the streets even though they are suspected of atrocious crimes because of slick sleazy lawyers or not quite enough evidence.
Criminals have more rights than vitims Jesus Mazzi didn’t you know that? Look at what’s happening in the Casey Anthony murder trial, famous defense lawyers falling all over themselves to defend her. She killed her 2 yr old daughter, never called police after 31 days it was her Mother Cindy that dialed 911 to report Caylee missing.. do they care…shit no. It’s a big greedy free for all circus having nothing to do with guilt or innocence. It’s everyone wanting a piece of Caylee for the blood money, even her own grandparents good old murder cover-up agents George & Cindy. Do I think Casey will get away with murder, maybe? If she’s found innocent would you Mazzi believe she is innocent, how gullable are you??
You don’t have any reason to come back here & gloat if TYLER is found innocent because it has nothing to do with the fact that he is. I hope I’m wrong & justice is served but after watching others go free or allowed onto the streets to reoffend before put away for good I’m saying I think he’ll be found innocent & go back to torturing cats in a different location at another time when it all settles down & we forgot about the sadistic prick.
Or maybe Tyler will take out his inner rage on people next time, women, it won’t be men because he’s a chicken shit coward & they would be able to fight back & win. I hope I’m wrong but you have nothing on me.
By waiting for the trial it means you have no mind of your own. If a sleazy lawyer gets him off that convinces you he’s innocent? Poor Mazzi… you need to get a backbone…think for yourself!
Also no one addressed the big scratches, impossible he got them feeding cats, so what’s your cover-up for that Tyler bullshit story? That is one reason I know he’s guilty among others but it’s a lie & I wonder why he’s lying if innocent. They also put a tracking devivce on his vehicle then when cops questioned Tyler he lied about his whereabouts, another reason I know he’s guilty. Innocent people don’t need to lie about their location, especially when a tracking device proves where he was, why lie unless you are guilty, you don’t!! No lie detector test, guilty, innocent people with nothing to lose would take one, period!
He’s a cat serial killer who lies as often as he masturbates after killing the cats, and you know the sadist have orgasms because of their acts. That’s what perverts do when committing sadistic crimes it’s why they do it. It’s basic psychology…criminal minds 101.
I thought you left. What a shame.
Ummmm… what? LOL.
Nope. I base it on the EVIDENCE presented at the trial. It’s really simple. Evidence… not knee-jerk reactions.
And if they find DNA, it’s evidence. Till then, it doesn’t exist.
A) We never debated anything. A debate requires that each side LISTEN to the other side, not just talk louder. Your hysterical theatrics do not constitute a debate.
B) Bundy and Dahmer were never “allowed back on the streets”. OJ was found not guilty. Are you suggesting that he should have been in jail after a NG verdict, because of your gut feeling? /rolls eyes.
Get a grip. What does Casey Anthony have to do with this case?
I won’t be “coming back” here. I’ll still be here. And I won’t be gloating about him winning his trial, I’ll be doing the Snoopy dance because you will be pissing BLOOD over it. And that makes me strangely happy =)
Please tell me that you are kidding. You think that waiting to hear what EVIDENCE exists makes me some kind of pudding-head? OMG! Well, I guess we just can’t let little things like facts get in the way of lynching someone can we? That has GOT to be the stupidest thing you have said so far, and that’s saying something!
AHA! PROOF that you either don’t read, or are incapable of comprehending.
OK- you are a sick freak. Seriously. You are scary-freaky. There is NO EVIDENCE yet that he killed the fucking cats, and you are fantasizing about him masturbating? You need more than Lithium or electro-shock. You need some hardcore help.
Don’t talk to me again. You really are a scary, scary person. And you are a lunatic.
OMG Mazzi! If I wasn’t already married, and heterosexual, I’d ask you to marry me!! LOL Your response had me on the verge of tears I was laughing so hard!!
“You think that waiting to hear what EVIDENCE exists makes me some kind of pudding-head? OMG! Well, I guess we just can’t let little things like facts get in the way of lynching someone can we? ”
“There is NO EVIDENCE yet that he killed the fucking cats, and you are fantasizing about him masturbating? You need more than Lithium or electro-shock. You need some hardcore help.
Don’t talk to me again. You really are a scary, scary person. And you are a lunatic.”
OMG! lol … “Snoopy dance” ;)))
A quick story from the FB experience…
After I had almost lost my mind (but before we had established “rules”): dropped in one time and saw the VooDoo princess was busy sucking the life out of other relatively sane people so, writing to them, I posted: **WARNING!** b-l-a-c-k-h-o-l-e! RUN!!!!!!!
Not nearly as funny as your posts but GOOD ADVICE nonetheless ;)
I’m sadistic, but I don’t get off on it. I guess it is far too complicated for some to understand, eh? Sadism is not necessarily a sexual thing. Sadism can be as simple as emotional pleasure at causing pain and/or humiliation of another human being/animal (I prefer to humiliate other people who have pissed me off, animals don’t irritate me as much as morons, and they can’t bitch about it, so no fun for me) Sexual Sadism is another realm, which can either be pleasurable or evil, depends on if the second individual is a willing masochist. I know this makes me sound like a sick individual, but I put all my shit out. No skeletons in my closet, I hang them right out on the clothes-line where everyone can see them, along with my biases, prejudices, pet-peeves, and over-enjoyment of alcoholic beverages. Nothing to hide here, hence nothing to see.
NC, here’s one for the “sadistic” file, truly sickening. (sent link to site admin – would like to see discussion on this)…
“Lawsuit filed against sheriff, deputies,” July 16,2009 Mt Vernon Register-News. (searching this story elsewhere, I discovered that, not only does the sheriff does NOT deny the allegations in the lawsuit, he stands behind their actions. google news search)
Ho…ly…crap. I am disgusted. If I do something really out of line, I do not expect my superiors to back me up, much less CONDONE it. I got sent to anger management for throwing a little notebook at someone (not a computer, an old school notebook.)
Right, psycho-babble anger mangement for throwing notebooks, maybe raising our voice… give me a break!
How many of us do you think could maintain ‘right to carry’ if WE behaved like this toward children?, towards ANYONE?! Scares the hell out of me — these guys were out of control (WAY out!!!) — and their superior is okay w/it. What is happening to this country??
I know! Seriously, most cops fail to realize that when they feel they are above the law, nobody respects them, and by association, the entire police force. “Oh well, that cop is speeding, so I can too.” “Oh, he walked out without paying, so can I.” “Well, the cops kicked my ass, so it makes it okay for me to do the same thing.”
Fucktards.
You’re so right!
I’ve posted (earlier) that I have friends who are “police officers,” the old school, ‘mentally stable, self-disciplined,’ type, some still serving, some retired, and they are all worried about ‘the changes’ in this new breed. So am I. If these sadists won’t hesitate to attacked & terrorize 11-12 yr old kids (who, as it turns out weren’t the ’cause’ for cops being called; not that it matters – there’s still NO EXCUSE) — what kind of chance do the rest of us have? BTW: any thoughts on ‘why’ they all shave their heads?… wasn’t that long ago that ‘skinheads’ (neo-nazis) were known for that. (I’m excluding the military, where shaving heads makes a little more sense)
I am not excluding myself form the sadist category, but like I said before, I only exercise that character flaw on people who piss me off. I don’t mean people I am apprehending, I mean other sailors in my reserve unit (my old one Navy Security Force, Newport, RI.) I shot one guy in the ass with an airsoft pistol, *snicker* He called me a slut, and I said “Takes one to know one, let’s see how you like this up your ass.” A little harsh, but he is an idiot. He’s 25 and he married a woman close to 50. (So he could sleep with her 18 year old daughter at the same time.)
Guess what? He’s military police… One that believes himself to be above the law, no less. Makes me sick to my stomach.
Excuse me, I meant “FROM the sadist category”
NC–
Big difference between asserting yourself when dealing w/some co-worker-jerk and: wielding authority over those your entrusted to protect in a sadistically frightening way (balance of power thing).(sounds like the guy ‘needed’ to be shot in the ass, and probably long before you stepped in lol)
You know, DueProcess, you have turned out to be a-okay! Rough start, but you’re pretty smart and quick on wit :) Allow me to say “Welcome!”
Thanks, GLAD to be here :)
(now if only my hands could keep up w/my head lol things like “your” when I mean “you’re” – I even check before posting! LOL)
Was thinking how tough it must be for females in military, I mean, if you DON’T assert yourself… would be pretty scary. You sound strong, willing to stand up to their crap, able to stand on your own w/o needing some jerk’s okay. Just remember, whatever you “see,” there are still some decent folks out there ;)
Didja see what I wrote about the guys from my unit on the Heaven Smith update…. lmao
Did not – headed there now :)
(then I’m logging out for awhile so, later!)
I will add one more thing since Tyler’s vivctims are voiceless defenseless animals they can’t point Tyler out in a line-up. I’m sure some of Tyler’s prey got away from him, but like a human say a rape victim who ran away a cat can’t go to the cops & point the little bastard out. So if the trial verdict is innocent it won’t mean shit to me, he’s guilty.
Mazzi says:
July 19, 2009 at 8:04 pm
Well, unlike you, I am who I am. I am the same online as I am in real life.
************************
Poor you & whoever has to put up with your wishy washy no backbone sneaky personality.
Bye Mazzi, is that your real name…due process how many aliases have you adopted because nobody can stand your guts on most websites? Fuck who I am & am not you say that because you have no rational argument why you are so obsessed with cat killer Tyler.
The fact that you like him & are his apologist & #1 fan raises bunches of red flags as to the kind of person you are & thank God I’m not. That’s all that matters to me, you are lower than dirt, I’m better than you because I make no excuses for people who torture & kill animals, and the sad thing is you know he did it yet you still defend Tyler come hell or high water.
You are shit, always were always will be no matter what you call yourself Georgia View, Due Process, Wait till the verdict is in, how many other names have you had, so many I can’t keep track nor do I want to but you sure get around a lot more than me??
It’s a deal Mazzi don’t mess with me & I won’t respond easy as pie. Sorry to offend your sensibilities but he has… it’s basic criminology 101. Deal with it your boy’s a psycho killer. I don’t like it but it’s the truth. Why does it shock you? Ask any expert, Jeffrey, Ted, John Wayne Gacey & Weinman. What you think he’s the ‘good serial killer’ who’d never touched himself?? Lol, sorry to disapoint. Ask Max, he probably knows that’s what sadistic killers do.
No Mazzi there’s evidence that’s a fact there’s a 10 page affidavit with circumstantial evidence & proof of Tyler’s lies are you retarded? I SAID MOST CASES ARE TRIED ON CIRCUMSTANTIAL EVIDENCE & it would be easier to have forensic testing come back with DNA evidence. I didn’t make it up there’s evidence & PROOF TYLER FUCKING LIED MORE THAN ONCE CAUGHT LYING ABOUT LOCATIONS HE WAS AT & HOW HE GOT SCRATCHED! Amnesia much, or selective memory because you like Tyler for some weird reason? Birds of a feather……..
No I’m not the sick freak Mazzi it’s the guy that tortured, mutilated & killed at least 19 cats then posed many of their mutilated bodies on the lawns of their bereaved owners to find, That’s the sick freak Mazzi, not the ones who want him punished for his hideous crimes. You sort of got it backwards, as usual.
It’s the asshole who lied to cops of his whereabouts, got expelled from 2 high schoolds & was good friends with a convcicted child killer in middle school. HE’S THE SICK FREAK!
Mazzi says the son of a dentist smirks as if it’s a big deal.
Mazzi now we get it….I understand perfectly thank you so much!!
Tyler’s the son of a dentist that explains the perma smirk, thanks Mazzi, that’s the reason for the creepy smirking/smiling in every one of his god damn mug shots & arrest photos. Alert the publivc Mazzi he’s a dentist kid that’s why he smirks!!
Not because he’s an evil little bastard proud of what he’s done who knows daddy’s gonna post bail & hire a lawyer to claim he’s innocent & most likely he’ll get by with it.
He’s a son of a dentist…that explains it all….whoa!! Lamest & saddest excuse yet…you one upped your pal Georgia Vue aka Due Process aka Wait Til Verdict Is In aka……..
Mazzi you get a prize….one mutilated cat impaled on a stick & posed on your front lawn just the way Tyler used to do it before his arrest!
Mazzi a serious question. Is Tyler’s Dentist Dad an evil dentist, like whoever made The Joker smile, it’s a deformity & Tyler can’t control his permanent facial expression, you think really? pfffft!!
Oh my God Mazzi– you will defend this worthless slug at all costs. I want to laugh but it’s too pathetic, though I’m mildly amused by your desperate attempt to explain away that disgusting smirk that TYLER CHOOSES to display in court, in photos, to the world & doesn’t give a crap!
TYLER looks completely & utterly unconcerned, bored in court yet smirks/smiles because he loves the attention.
You can still marry Mazzi DP! Isn’t it legal now in CT & MA, maybe CA? Don’t let same sex stop you, you 2 are kindred souls who belong together, leave the hubby & go for it!
Mazzi- for every one of your answers in blocks no less to my comments I have responses that would make your drivel look like the ignorant mutant you are. For instance Jeffrey Dahmer was in the middle of killing someone in his apartment & the police were called to the scene but left & he finished what he started because of “no proof or evidence” on more than one instance Bundy was arrested & let go because of the same excuses you are making for Tyler.
I’m not going to go into all these criminal’s histories but that was my point which you came off with smarmy semantics as if I didn’t know what I was talking about.
But Mazzi– let’s put this as simply as I can about your character as a human being. You are the very first person anywhere on any website that has become friends with & taken a fancy to Due Process & do you know why? Because everyone with an ounce of morals & decency hates her fucking guts & that is no lie. So what does it say about you to form a bond with such a liar, mealy mouthed, sniveling Tyler the serial cat killer’s #1 fan?
It says you are most likely the same type of person of low character & no morals that others also dislike. That’s all I have left to say to you, it sums it up rather neatly & honestly you are both idiots & defend an animal serial killer, who needs to even waste anymore time with either of you, not me, yuck!
Google, “BLACKHOLE” — (sources Wiki, and UCLA Berkeley)
“In general relativity, a black hole is a region of space in which the gravitational field is so powerful that nothing, including light, can escape its pull. The black hole has a one-way surface, … into which objects can fall, but out of which nothing can come. It is called “black” because it absorbs all the light that hits it, reflecting nothing, … Despite its invisible interior, a black hole can reveal its presence through interaction with other matter… ”
“Near a black hole, this distortion of space is extremely severe and causes black holes to have some very strange properties. … You can pass in through the horizon, but you can’t get back out. In fact, once you’ve crossed the horizon, you’re doomed to move inexorably closer and closer to the ‘singularity’ at the center of the black hole.” Scary stuff!
Although theoretical, scientific observations strongly suggest that blackholes do indeed exist… Disinterested observation of Evilgene’s posts seems to support the theory, as well.
Remaining a good distance from the “horizon” is the safest way to avoid falling into a blackhole.
eerily quiet….
Can a black hole consume itself?
Just shut up unless you have something useful to say, evangeline. Stop the all out attack on Mazzi and turn your wrath on the REAL bad guys. Seriously. If you have something to say, think about it for a minute, then see if you should rephrase the seage spewing forth from your fingertips.
Excuse me, I meant SEWAGE. I am still hung over from drill.
I’ve been making typos left and right, and I don’t even have “drill” as an excuse lol (maybe when we’re face-to-face w/crazy, the brain starts throwing off charges that overwhelm the hands, you think? lol)
Well, the gin and tonics and the Mike’s Hard lemonade, and the eight or twelve shots of tequila are the excuse. Drill weekend was just the occasion. >:) Arrrgh, my head hurts!
Damn you, NavyCop !!! I miss knocking back a few myself.
See I’m a mommy, and haven’t drank in years, and now I’m with child again, and unlike a lot of the morons you’ll see featured on this site, I just can’t be getting my drink on when I’m pregnant.
I know, I know…imagine that. I’m actually responsible. :)
I have a three-year old myself, so I only drink when I am with my shipmates. Gotta cut loose every now and then. All work and no play makes me even more of an uptight prick. I’m actually pretty mellow right now, and I go back again in just thirteen days!
Ho-ly Shit! Evangeline completely lost me in his/her/its random ramblings and brow-beatings. From “fuck him” to “fuck Mazzi” in a flash! Mazzi, you are a trooper for dealing with that load of shit.
evangeline- from what I have seen in my short time here, Mazzi doesn’t necessarily defend people. In fact, I believe that Mazzi uses sarcasm and satyre to shed light on the fact that some people are so blind that they will defend even the most heinous asshat. Like you.
Welcome back Navy,
I told the crazy wench to stop talking to me, but I guess she has no self control at all. Not that it matters, I actually enjoy watching her strange logic, since I am a “people watcher” and even mentally unstable people are fascinating.
But she is scary. Really really scary. Her fascination with reliving the horrors of cat killings (in graphic detail) and her fantasizing about Tyler masturbating (also in pretty graphic conceptualization) shows me that she is waaaaaaaaay over the edge.
As much as I like poking the trolls, when I sense that they are in real danger of complete mental breakdown, as this one is, I have to back off. As annoying and stupid as they can be, simple human compassion tells me that I don’t want to participate in the coming crash and burn.
Hopefully she has some real life acquaintances (it’s inconceivable that she has friends) who will catch the gist of her mental instability, and urge her to seek real live help. She needs it desperately.
Damn shame that she turned out to be such a psycho. At one point she kinda made sense. Oh well. Talk about a 180.
One poster here continues to go apoplectic, accusing others of defending a guy “…that tortured, mutilated & killed at least 19 cats then posed many of their mutilated bodies on the lawns of their bereaved owners to find…”
[even though, mind you, no one has remotely suggested defending such horrific actions but rather the assertion has CONSISTENTLY been: SHOW ME THE EVIDENCE (gossip, speculation, inference, innuendo, etc. DO NOT QUALIFY as evidence)]
and this same poster insists that “That’s the sick freak”…
[to which it has ALREADY BEEN AGREED - multiple times- that if a person actually did these things, that person SHOULD be held to account for such vicious crimes]
This poster further claims that such a person should be punished, “not the ones who want him punished for his hideous crimes”
A logic nightmare!
1. IF a person did these things, that person should be punished.
2. to ascertain whether a person did these things, tests must be performed on the remains and evidence produced to support the accusation. (there’s not enough prison room to incarcerate everyone we do not like; a bad precedent by any standard)
3. people who base determinations of culpability on anything less then verifiable evidence, i.e. rely on gossip/one side of a story, and allow that assumption to feed their own anger and hatred, ARE threats to a free society (concepts of liberty), they work themselves up to where they are no longer able to reason… and the ability to reason is an indication of mental imbalance: a “sickness.”
* an inability* … to reason is an indication of mental imbalance: a “sickness.”
Must suck to be a fucking moron. I almost feel bad for evangeline
Here’s the thing about evangeline that gives me the creeps. If a simple discussion pisses her off THIS bad, imagine the rage and nonsense she exhibits in real life situations. She sounds incredibly unstable, and unstable people creep me out.
Maelstrom, “…unstable people creep me out.”
That says it for me as well.
What concerns me is — why is it so HARD to ignore? (the “blackhole” theory is all I can come up with). No response to the ranting is sufficient, the instability increases — it’s a vicious cycle.
Going to test my self-control: no more responding to ‘fubar.’
Exactly right Maelstrom.
Her fury is so deep and so blind that she is a danger to herself and probably others.
I can’t participate in contributing to her insanity any more. If you watch the progression of posts, she is in full-swing meltdown.
If she wants to target me, that’s cool. It has a zero effect on me. Nothing that a frootloop on a message board says about me impacts the reality of who I am or what I believe, and I would rather be the target of her rage than it be inflicted on someone more fragile than me.
Excellent post, DP.
I think that Jason put it best when he tole Evangeline “it’s not that they can’t see YOUR side of the argument, it’s that YOU can’t see theirs.”
The issue here is way bigger than whether Tyler killed cats or not. It’s in HOW some people process information, and how willing they are to participate in a lynch-mob mentality based on incomplete evidence. It is indeed a danger to our very society.
According to Evangeline, people who she personally believes are not just guilty, but per her own words – SUSPICIOUS, should be imprisoned. She is incapable of understanding that her standard is not a standard that could be enforced, unless we placed her on a pedestal and consulted her about every situation as it came up. It’s classic narcissism, mixed with stupidity.
Our laws were created for a reason, and that reason is to ensure that people are treated fairly, and not subjected to the whims of Evangeline or someone like her.
Do we all know that serial killers usually wet the bed, start fires and harm animals? certainly. Do we also know that people who harm animals, wet the bed and start fires don’t ALWAYS become serial killers. Well, most reasonable people know that. So should a person who had the “big three” automatically be condemned to prison. I think that everyone except Evangeline would say hell no.
So, should Tyler be imprisoned because Evangeline thinks he is a cat killer, based on how he “smirks” and that he lived in the area where cats were killed? Only in her mind.
Should Tyler be imprisoned if there is ample circumstantial evidence that he killed cats (or firm evidence of the same), hell yes, and we don’t need Evangeline to make that decision for us.
Mazzi – Thank you, and to your response… couldn’t agree more.
“Should Tyler be imprisoned if there is ample circumstantial evidence that he killed cats (or firm evidence of the same), hell yes, and we don’t need [Evil-gene] Evangeline to make that decision for us.”
posted what you have quoted.
Reply
Jason says:
July 14, 2009 at 3:02 pm
Okay…. here’s the issue. Probable cause falls under that whole: “fair and prudent” issue.
If I stopped you on the street and you knew nothing about the case, could the following conversation have occurred.
Officer: Hello there, I’m a police officer, can I talk to you a moment?
you: Sure
Officer: There’s this kid whose been busted for drugs three times who we think killed these cats (shows pics of cats). We think these 19 cats were killed and left for their owners to find at these locations (shows a map of only the red dots where the 19 were found and a green line runs through the center). See this green line? This is the route that the pot smoker walks. See this one red dot here? An officer on May 19th caught this young man outside of the house of the owner of this cat. It was 2 in the morning. Why do you think any young man would be out at 2:00 in the morning, just walking around?
you: I…
Officer: anyway, the next morning this cat (shows picture) was dead, as was this cat (shows picture), here (show the red dot on the map corresponding to the other cat.) On top of that, we put a tracker on him and he was within 1/2 a mile of these 4 other cat killings and said that tearing cat skin makes a weird sound.
you: What? He said that?
Officer: yes, he was really excited about dissecting cats when we picked him up.
you: you’re kidding!
Officer: so, yeah, do you think he did it?
That’s all that’s needed for probable cause. That and of course a judge’s sign off for search warrants, when it comes to search warrants, but probable cause isn’t hard to handle.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Jason good post, very intriguing. Even simplified & other factors excluded the sequence of events you listed are pretty strong for ‘probable cause’ on their own. I admit I don’t know all the legal jargon, whether it’s circumstantial evidence or probable cause. All I know is if I was a cop stopping him at 2:00, 3:00 in the morning during those dates, I’d be connecting the dots & he would look guilty as hell. Even without the fucking perma-smirk or knowledge of the scratches.
I read what ‘TYLER said’ about being scratched & nowhere did I read that ‘TYLER said’ he brought strays INSIDE to feed. He told cops in the affidavit that ‘I got scratched from feeding strays at my Mother’s house’ not I was trying to bring them inside to protect from the cat killer uh, himself.
Bullshit, don’t believe for 1 minute he brought strays inside of Mom’s house unless it’s where he tortured & mutilated them. But it’d explain why the cats fought him & scratches. A lame defense & bald face lie, but 1 nonetheless. Unless I overlooked it seems Tyler’s scum bucket lawyers or brain dead defenders might have inserted it into his original ‘feeding strays at my mom’s’ BS story.
Whoever concocted the cover-up, it’s stupid & absurd.
I’m starting to believe he brought some of the cats inside his Mother’s house to kill them then later placed them in front, back yard of their owner’s houses & other locations.
I was almost tempted to respond to your latest ravings.
The idea, posed by a certain black hole, that implicates Tyler’s mother w/the suggestion that Tyler took the cats into her home to “kill” them, and then took them back to their owners houses, placing the remains in the front or backyard and taking the time to “pose” them so as to “taunt the owners”… is so patently stupid I had to post a response.
Picture this ridiculous scenario;
Cops are apparently on “stake out” in these two communities (having approached TW at 2 a.m. Thurs 5/14, and 12:30 a.m and 2 a.m. Fri 5/15), however Tyler still daringly 1) avoids anyone witnessing him ‘grab a cat,’ which he then 2) manages to get back to his mom’s house, and 3) takes inside… 4) somewhere in mom’s house (where no blood evidence is found) TW allegedly kills said cat and then… 5) carefully returns said cat’s remains to the same house where the cat was found (how did he know the cat lived there?, that it hadn’t just been wandering around the neighborhood?,), TW now deposits the remains (according to whim?) in either the owner’s front or back yard (w/o anyone witnessing him doing so), he then returns home (again without anyone witnessing him) and talks on the phone for awhile, or goes to bed…
MUCH more feasible: a stray dog entered the backyard and killed the cat; or the cat was injured by a car, managed to crawl back to its own house and was attacked by a stray dog or other wild predator. (enclosed backyards have already been addressed but once again: dogs climb fences, dogs kill cats. The condition of the remains appearing as if “mutilated,” [indicating human involvement] has also been addressed prior but once more: ALL the cases of alleged “cat mutilations” across the country (over the last 10 year period) have been described in the same gruesome manner but all were found to be attributable to wild animal predation, i.e. NO HUMAN PREDATOR despite what the officials thought.)
If you’re going to pose a theory, at least make it within the realm of the believable, the possible.
Have really been scrutinizing the affidavit and would like to post some thoughts on a couple of points.
Detective’s use of the subjective term “laughed,” etc….
“My Cousin Vinnie” (funny, funny movie), great scene when the kid is hauled in for questioning, accused of killing the store clerk… setting: deep south; boy’s from NY… cop says “when you shot the clerk…” to which a shocked kid responds, “*I* shot the clerk?” – this is taken as a confession.
Tone of voice, visual cues, cultural differences, body language, circumstances, context… so many ways to interpret the meaning of words, the ‘type’ of laugh, etc.
Although we can’t review HOW Tyler laughed (late night approaches by LE), the affidavit does imply things like “talked excitedly,” and other descriptions suggestive of TW’s frame of mind. I’m waiting to see the interrogation tape where we have both sides, and a context for questions and answers. On its own the detective’s accounting of the “interrogation” means nothing until we can see and hear the questions that Tyler was being lead to respond to, the context of his responses.
(next post: the booking photo)
Heh. It makes no difference to some people “how” he laughed, or even whether he laughed at all. The fact that he smirks is enough to hang him high.
Mazzi,
Yes, and that’s how “mobs” get worked up; failure to wonder, to question, to reason. Scary, scary.
This is pretty good stuff, but it presupposes that everything is a bluff or a fabrication.
I play Chess, Bridge and Poker alongside a few of the modern games.
In Chess, there’s a concept and a book called “Chess for Tigers.”
It’s a methodology of playing the opponent from a position of assumed strength. There are several interesting chapters in the book (and It’s almost 17 years since I read it last), but the idea is to tear apart your opponent based on his assumptions. You still have to play well, but you try to make him play badly. Your assumptions here are that the police force is not only bad at its job, but that it’s making an intentional bluff that’s relatively easy to call.
My next metaphor is bridge. Bridge is a nearly perfect game in which all 52 cards are known by 4 of the players. After a bid, in contract bridge, one player knows what half of the cards are and by process of elimination, she knows that there’s a 50/50 chance that any outstanding card is held by one of his two opponents. If they bid, then she can make educated guesses to finesse information from an opponent as they play their cards. I think the affidavit in modern legal modes is a finesse. You know what a certain set of facts are, but not all of them. You believe you understand enough to make your contract or bid, in this case you think you can convict. There’s a possibility you go down, but going down can be terribly costly, especially in nearly bottomless civil litigation. This Affidavit is a conservative bid in an attempt to win points at the trial as each piece is laid down. Prosecutors play to win, and they want a significant amount of facts to be played as things fall.
Poker is a different game depending on the variation, but with a perfect Texas hold ‘em table, you can reasonably guess every conceivable hand on the table. You can actually look at the cards on the table and in your own hand and know the odds on the hardest, but most powerful hand possible, and bet accordingly based upon the power of your own hand. The Affidavit is not the sort of thing that suggest a full house, a straight flush or a similar problem, but if there was an out of the park hand at this table, what possible motivation would the prosecution have of exposing that hand at this time? A few more months, and they can line up a much harder play and grind Tyler into a guilty plea that saves the tax payers, makes the police here look like pros, and gives a notch in the prosecutor’s bed post. The consequences at the moment are that the state is all in. IF they’re wrong, right now, the civil suit his family brings against them will be legendary and the payout astronomical. I like the My Cousin Vinny reference, but Tyler’s own words, even outside of context are uncomfortable and explicit about the sound a cats skin makes when you tear it. That’s a dangerous thing to discount.
Perhaps a better way of framing this would be to say, Tyler had been questioned on multiple occasions. He may in fact be a punk, but he’s smarter than average, and he chose to antagonize his interrogators because he knew he was innocent and was tired of all of the questions. He was tired of answering the same question forty different ways. If he’s innocent, it seems to me to be the only way to explain the specific words he used.
Jason, “…but it presupposes that everything is a bluff or a fabrication.” Not really.
I assume, rightly or wrongly, that the detective was building on his preconceived ideas about the case, and about Tyler. When we do this, things that might not otherwise fit begin to. It is a failure to critically examine the premise that gets us in trouble.
The affidavit tells only what the detective thought, and quotes partial answers of the accused; it does not inform us of the actual questions put to Tyler, we are unable to tell how much prodding the detective applied in order to get “what he was looking for,” etc.
For example, let’s say the detective asked Tyler about the dissection class and Tyler gave him a general overview (very little detail), let’s further assume that since approx. 1,000 kids in M-D have taken the same class, Tyler’s initial response did not incriminate him and so the det. begins to “push,” as it were…
Perhaps Columbro asks Tyler to provide more detail, as in “what was the worse thing about the class, for you Tyler?” and TW responds the sound …. and the det. pushes further with, “can you describe that “sound?”"… Tyler grapples w/trying to find the right words… thinking back to the class, sitting here scared to death in police custody, searching for what the det. wants to hear, he tries to express how gross it was and says, “… kind of a tearing sound.” (he appeared excited when describing this… Really? Was it excitement, or agitation, discomfort?)
Anyhow, my whole point it that the responses by themselves do not allow us to draw any conclusions, (certainly not that TW was toying w/cops)… without hearing the questions that were being put to him by the professionals, without hearing the amount of pushing and directing of the interrogation, without hearing any of Tyler’s discomfort, it’s just impossible to judge the meaning of any of it. Too easy to take the detective’s “word for it.” I have a lot of respect for law enforcement, but I’m not going to give them the benefit of the doubt; show me the whole interrogation and then I can decide.
I think you learned that other lesson well. You didn’t hand me the loaded gun I was looking for.
I wanted you to say, Tyler was obviously toying with the police officers. I would have followed with a discussion of why Sociopaths toy with their accusers. It’s not the cat and mouse game that we see on the silver screen with Hannibal Lecter, it’s actually that Sociopaths don’t know what other people want of them, so they try to adapt and respond. The reason they come off creepy in their interviews, is because they’re so matter of fact, and that smug grin Evangeline keeps bringing up is an old image. It’s something that showed up on Jeffrey Dahlmer’s mug and a host of others. Don’t doubt that if this gets to trial, the prosecution is going to try some way to show that pic along with the pics of other serial killers to somehow join it together. If the defense is sharp, they’ll object to it and prevent it.
Considering the fact that not one single piece of information has surfaced thus far indicating that Tyler had the traits of a sociopath; not a comment from a friend, an acquaintance, other authority figures, a pastor, a coach, or anyone who knew and had occasion to observe Tyler for 18 years… and let’s not forget the psychiatrist who performed the court-ordered evaluation of Tyler prior to his conditional release who’s assessment was that he was “not a threat to himself or the community”… I think if the state tries to go forward with this argument (sociopath) they are going to lose.
Think of how this term came to be applied to Tyler in the news: the detective spoke to a staff psychologist about ‘what type of person would do this’ (presupposing a person DID do this) and the psychologist portrayed a sociopathic-type personality (do they really get paid for this, couldn’t any one of us have arrived at the same conclusion?)… In any case, the detective was forming a theory that included Tyler Weinman… without the benefit of an actual psych eval of TW himself, the DETECTIVE decided that Tyler “fit the bill,” based on the description he’d been given by the professional he’s consulted w/on a general question, and he included his ‘belief’ in the affidavit.
This is beyond hearsay… this is mad science.
That’s why you didn’t open the line yet, but you’re bridging on it.
We’re still swirling that same space mind you, where there’s nothing new, but the door of motive has always been open. What is the motive for killing 19 cats in this way? The affidavit could have been challenged more reasonably without some sort of implied motive. The Detective presented one, one that has successful precedent.
It also sets the detective up to look much stronger when or if he some day writes a book about this case if his initial diagnosis is proven by other evidence.
Jason, left some of my braincells in a black hole I collided with, so am unable to understand this…
“That’s why you didn’t open the line yet, but you’re bridging on it.”
Please, help lol (I’m certain it’s simple, but I just don’t understand)
You’re starting to think 3 and 4 posts ahead. If you’d opened the line on “My Cousin Vinny” more, you’d have to start considering the literary argument about Hannibal Lecter again.
Your argument and most arguments are a series of threads woven around a central idea or points. In debate a line refers to a single statement that leads to a chain of support. The statement, if opened, allows a point to be drawn within your own argument. You have to stop that line from being used against you and you dodged it. It was a compliment.
We’re both, or rather, everyone here is stuck with the same facts. What we have left to discuss are the points in each argument. I lose nothing by showing you where I was headed, because we don’t have any or much, I hope, personal animosity right now, we only have our difference of opinion and interpretations. You said you’re a quick study, and let me take the part of tutor in debate methods. I’m continuing that line, because it’s a good holding pattern and it’s good manners. If the case falls the way I see it, it gives you a reasonable out for accepting the decision, and if I’m wrong, I’ve been honest throughout the process of what I knew, and why I supported it. It gives me fall back room to feel comfortable wearing my own skin, win or lose.
More specifically, if you had repeated your line on “My Cousin Vinny” and the interview scene, if the interview tapes came out against your point, the attachment you placed on them would be more “dangerous” to your case. I’m making the assumption, that the tapes and blow by blow in those interviews is damning. I’m betting on it and trying to get you to marry yourself to a statement that marries you to an opposing statement that is unsound.
There’s absolutely no malice in it, but I think it helps to explain what I’m doing and the minor consequences to your arguments of actions you might take.
Every post seems to be getting better. I’m giving you something else to chew on, while we wait.
Jason, thanks for the encouragement, and the “tutoring.” Much appreciated. You’ve given me a lot to think abut with this post… will chew on it and come back later to address. ;)
It’s been called: smirk, smile, grin, arrogant, smug, evidence of guilt, sociopathic, etc. Here’s what I see:
A young man is picked up from a party, after midnight (18, after midnight, party, prior pot charge… hmm). He voluntarily accompanies cops in for more “questioning.” Step back 2 weeks…
Based on the affidavit: Tyler was approached (May 14, 2am, 1/2 mi from home) while walking home, he is “interviewed for a short period,” by “detectives,” in the dark… from the affidavit: “detectives told Weinman that cats were being killed. Weinman laughed at the comment.” What comment? It’s not quoted. Was there innuendo attached, a suggestion that a guy walking home in the dark might be responsible? What sort of “laugh” was this? Maniacal?, stunned disbelief at an accusatory cop?, shocked?, gleeful?, comical?, unnerved (as any of us might be)? —-Did the detective inquire as to where TW had been and was going? Certainly he would have done so, but no mention… Had he been out w/a girlfriend and just walked her home? Had he been playing videos at a friend’s suddenly realizing how late it was, and headed home? “Anonymous” contacts PD to say he/she saw Tyler outside, on his cellphone at 3am….(probably telling his girlfriend how scary it was to have these cops stop and question him on the way home 20-30 minutes prior, relaying the awful feeling he had, like they were trying to accuse him…)
The very next night, @12:30 a.m. he’s skateboarding (headed home?), and a LEO approaches him -Rodriguez- (no recounting of conversation), then again at 2a.m. Det. Columbro “makes contact” w/Tyler (where? In front of his house? was he on his cellphone again… outside so mom wouldn’t be disturbed by his talking?) and informs Tyler of several “acts of animal cruelty in the area,” telling him he should keep his cats indoors, and Det. writes: “Tyler responded by laughing at the suggestion.” Hmm… .Does Tyler have indoor cats @ mom’s? Was the stray cat outside the only cat here (the one he’d been placing food out for)? Could Tyler have laughed like, “this cat is wild, I don’t think I COULD get it inside!”
When did he join the Catch the Cat Killer group? After he’d been approached 3-4 times by cops and “warned about the cat killings?” When did he attempt to get the cat inside (the one that “scratched [his] neck, ran down his back”)? After Detective Columbro “made contact” and suggested he keep his cat(s) indoors?
Later on May 15, following a “traffic stop,” by several members of M-D PD (?) Tyler is taken in for questioning… Tyler answers all their questions, is cooperative, tries to help police. How long was he there for? [the entirety of the “interrogation” has already been addressed as less than reliable based on the inability to see/hear full questions and full responses.
June 13, the affidavit is submitted to the judge requesting arrest warrant be issued.
So let’s recap. At this point (6/13/09) Tyler has been approached in the dark by various cops, made to feel like LE thinks he is somehow involved, brought in for questioning 2 weeks earlier and released, asserts his innocence, waives his rights …
So, at what point did they book him and take the photo? After he’d been up for approx 24 hours (following 8 hours of interrogation)?, after hours of accusatory questioning? He should look tired, scared, confused…
OR, was the photo taken shortly after he was brought in on the 13/14th? (this was an arrest warrant, he had been Mirandized and waived his rights, showing a willingness to cooperate) If this is the case, then he might look like, “come on guys… I didn’t do those things, we talked about this before…” and maybe he’s thinking that, like the May 15 questioning, they’re just going to talk some more, they’ll realize he’s innocent, and release him…like before. The look on his face in the booking pic makes perfect sense put in this perspective.
Well done, you were already posting it when I was writing my response.
Thanks, Jason :)
So Jason still at 77% or are you being swayed by someone who’s been everywhere on the internet with one clear agenda…to convince others that Tyler’s a choir boy who loves his parents, his country, the law & especially puppies & kitties? I’m not trying to be sarcastic & it’s obvious you enjoy a good debate. They are out of your league & who am I t tell you to stop playing with them. But are they changing your mind in the least?
No new information means that in this case I’m still 77/23.
DueProcess and I are stuck in technical debate now. Points can be scored, but that would suggest there’s something She or I haven’t considered. Some wrinkle that adds to the body of knowledge. Her argument has weaknesses, but she’s coming back at this with a few refinements. You’re sharpening your game here and there too, but you’ve still got this chip on your shoulder that you’re going to need to be prepared to kick off or simply risk facing.
I’m ready to be wrong. I’m ready to turn a corner and have a gun stuck in my face. I honestly am. I have no illusions, I am mortal, I am not perfect, I cannot see everything, and cannot predict everything. I could die today and find out that my faith in God was misplaced and that I will be reincarnated as a cockroach because I doubted Krishna’s plan for the universe, but I’m not swayed by those possibilities–I have no doubts in my core faith, but I would only be shaken to my core, not instantly destroyed. I have the same evidence in this case as I started with. You have the same evidence. DueProcess has the same evidence. We all three came to our opinions honestly now. We’ve tried nobly and less than so to convince others of why we came to our conclusions.
Until we have more information, we can keep going on in technical debate, or we can try and get more information about the case.
I’ve honestly tried, but my resources hit a dead end. If there’s anyone who has anything more on this case, they’re tight lipped.
I know why you’re so angry with DueProcess, but I don’t know why you play this waiting period the way you do. When Michael Gagnon killed Bethany and the girls, I was 100% sure he was guilty and that the cause of the crash was because of him drinking himself to a stupor and choosing to drive the wrong way on a street. Even the people who were arguing with me were 100% sure he had done it. The point of the argument at that time was to prevent a reasonable person from feeling sympathetic. I think that’s your argument here, but unlike the Gagnon case, we haven’t got proof that puts a knife in Tyler’s hands. We’ve got a very good look at proof that puts Tyler at the scene of what we have been told are crimes that in my mind would be enough to convict if the defense cannot prove someone else could do it. That actually covers the innocent until proven guilty requirement of the law.
I’m a reasonable person, shown facts(evidence) and I cannot reasonably believe that Tyler did not do it without evidence to the contrary beyond the level I’ve conceded so far.
DueProcess has consistently built her arguments on might have beens and precedents that require proof in their own right–and she is getting better at presenting them. In the absence of that proof or proof to the contrary, I reasonably consider the possibility that I’m wrong. In this case, it would still piss me off if Tyler got off on a technicality, but I can still be a bigger man and admit that there’s a possibility for Tyler to be innocent of some or all of the charges.
You can stew in your juices, or step back from that ledge, have a seat, and spar on the technicalities while we all wait for the next piece of information.
If it’s stupid that Tyler brought them in to kill, it’s equally stupid he let them tear at his skin & attack him to bring inside to feed. That’s my point he didn’t get scratched bringing the cats inside to feed. He got them from being the cat serial killer, the cats were fighting him to stay alive.
Don’t you get it DP, for all your theories & conspiarcies, you aren’t any more intelligent then the Peabody High School sickos that defend Tyler because they think he did it & call him a legend & a hero. You are on the same level as all those filthy vermin who could care less what he did to the 19+ cats.
“You are on the same level as all those filthy vermin who could care less what he did to the 19+ cats.”
Take your meds and start reading what is ACTUALLY written here.
Due Process — I should have added feed & protect, that’s the defense for the scratches, right? A question, if Tyler went to such extremes to let ‘the strays in’ to feed where the hell are they now?
I know if I went through all that trouble to protect cats from an animal killer runing loose in my neighborhood I wouldn’t let them out again. In fact all my rescued cats are now indoors only & it takes a good bit of work to domesticate them. None scratched the hell out of me but that’s beside the point right now.
So what made him set them free, back outside where they could be in danger? I’m sure police asked to see these strays Tyler fought so bravely to save right? What his Mom didn’t take over cat duties after he got in trouble? If they cared so much the cats should still be inside until the ‘real killer was caught’ or they decided the ‘loose pit bulls’ are no longer a threat. Or just because they care the cats are safer indoor=s & as you said have a longer life expectancy.
Evilgene, Against every sensible instinct in me, I’m going to respond to you…
You wrote, “So what made him set them free, …?” Tyler never succeeded in bringing the cat inside.
While attempting to bring the stray inside (which he had been putting out food for), after asking his mom’s permission to do so, and most likely after several warnings from the night-stalking members of the M-D cat patrol to “keep your cats inside,” once he managed to get hold of the stray and turned with it to bring it inside, it reacted in a manner predictable to anyone familiar w/stray cats: it clawed his neck in a panic and ran over his shoulder and down his back to get and stay outside.
BTW: Jason doesn’t seem quite the dope you’ve painted him as above, as a matter of fact he has caused me to slow down and analyze everything. Maybe you should try doing so,too.
A Due Process- What is it with this black hole you compare me with DP? I don’t read your entire useless babbling anymore I just skim over the drivel . But you know what you really are? . But from what I’ve learned about you from people who hate you for wasting their time & wrecking their web sites: You’re a stupid 80 yr old woman verging on senility with too much time on your hands. Nothing against old people but in your case you’re not aging gracefully, you’re a nusiance, an old hag with delusions of grandeur.
The black hole shit- makes you sound like you’re ready for the loony bin or nursing home. Comparing me to some dangerous black hole, I’ve never hurt a living thing in my life be it people or animals. I have a son that would tell you he’s decent because I vowed never to strike him in anger & I raised him well with no psychical punishments.
A black hole isn’t dangerous in the sense you’re referring to, rather it is a fascinating phenomenon that exists, undetected, in deep space… once you’ve approached it, it’s too late to turn back, it will suck you in to its mass emptiness from which no light is emitted.
I detest cowards who hurt voiceless victims that can’t speak for or defend themselves. In those cases I believe in an eye for an eye. I’m an animal rights advocate & if anyone hurts them I want them punished to the maximum. If that makes me unacceptable to some then so be it. I’m proud of my fight against animal cruelty. I help animals & don’t defend the lowlife scum who hurt them.
I have literally 1000′s of friends I communicate & work with to save animals who feel the same as I do on most animal issues. I could care less if someone beats Tyler to death, or any other animal abuser.
Child & animal abusers are the lowest forms of life. I hope Tyler dies in prison, what good is he to society? People like Tyler & Cheyenne are trash that need disposal of instead of being leeches that suck the life from & make this world an uglier place.
Cheyenne has confessed and deserves whatever she gets.
Tyler claims that he did NOT do what he has been accused of. Tyler deserves the benefit of the doubt.
Your crusade on behalf of animals is commendable, but beware the danger of jumping to conclusions and assuming someone guilty without facts and evidence to back it up or you could end up no better than those you detest, i.e. destroying innocent lives.
Can’t have it both ways, Tyler attempted… but never brought them in to feed after being attacked & scratched…come on now. Just the other day your friend Mazzi said he brought the cats inside to feed & protect. Can’t have it both ways…man it’s ridiculous when you are so aware of what Tyler’s done & you just won’t admit it.
Are you on Daddy’s payroll, a hired gun? Seriously I avoided asking you that because I know other’s have & you deny it. I will try my best not to give you fuel for the fire because for some reason you seem to be changing minds at this place.
I suspect they may have been right about you on facebook, topix, myspace, miamiherald, miaminews, etc.
Daddy’s hired PR damage control online who’s doing a piss poor job. Other then this site all you succeed in doing is alienating those who are undecided into hating the little shit Tyler & concluding he’s guilty.
You’re either his senile 80 year old grandma or daddy’s hired cover-up agent. Next time you respnd try not to make it a Tyler novella.
Okay Evilgene, I’m an 80 year old hired gun who happens to be Tyler’s granny. Feel better?
On a more serious not, what the heck does this even mean? —
“…you [DP] are so aware of what Tyler’s done & you just won’t admit it.”
(you start to appear able to think rationally, and then this silliness again… very strange)
Careful here, was this tongue in cheek, or are you in fact, related to Tyler?
That’s baggage you typically have to declare.
I have cats. I declared that early on, because to avoid that is to be dishonest with myself and the people attempting to convince me I’m wrong.
Definitely “tongue in cheek,” Jason… ergo the: “On a more serious note..”
Just messing w/Evilgene … she has spouted her unfounded claims repeatedly (I’m a hired gun on daddy’s payroll, I’m a senile 80 year old ready for the retirement home, etc.), and I thought I’d finally put an end to it by agreeing w/her lol
Be gentle there, as a favor to me. I made a mistake or three identifying someone and I had software that produced a match on their diction and word use.
It’s too easy to see familial involvement in some of these cases. I’ve seen it in roughly 30 posts on this site, and I haven’t read every entry.
Usually it’s “You blank blank, mother blanks, God said there’s no judging so screw you in the blank blank.”
Sometimes it’s, a little more involved.
The Jason Shenfield case has a relatively rare occurrence, the family member who burns ties and calls Jason Shenfield and the people who support him for what they are. I’ve only seen that three times on this site. Max might have a better estimate on that number.
Be “gentle” w/Evilgene or, w/making jokes about being related? Either way, you asked it as a favor and I’m happy to oblige.
My problem w/these silly accusations is that it makes it hard to take anything else seriously, I mean, if her powers of deduction are so poor as to believe (after all that I’ve written) that the only explanation for what I say is that someone must be paying me, or that I must be related to the accused. Sounds like a desperate attempt to avoid the issues, on her part. (Really: do I sound like a senile 80 yr old?)
You, on the other hand, have tested my arguments, judged my capacity to cede points where your argument is the stronger, and concluded that I am a passionate defender of the presumption of innocence: this is far more reasonable than the juvenile accusations thrown out by EG.
It’s because your writing evidences objectivity and reason that I’m able to take what you say seriously, and the lack of same by EG is why I ‘m unable to do so w/anything she writes.
You are incapable of ‘messing with me’. I don’t give you or anyone else here that power or importance over me.
claude says:
July 31, 2009 at 12:05 pm
“What damage will people like Evangeline, Claude and others have done to him?”
Havent done anything to the guy. I simply post news articles from the web and i also happen to think hes guilty. I just simply dont drink your koolaid. Never will. Im POSITIVE theyve got the right guy. Ive spoken to a few who know tyler and he isnt the saint that you would like to believe. I knew about this partial confession a couple weeks ago. I also know a few other things that you will be finding out about. You keep making this ignorant claim that there is absolutely no evidence. That just is not the case. Some of you act as if everyone else who doesnt share your views is somehow brainwashed by the media. Again, thats false. A friend of mine was once falsely arrested. It was for murder. No, he didnt do it and no one who knew him thought he did. His face was splashed all over the front page of the paper for several days. A week later when they finally caught the real perps, he was released. And yes, all there was in the paper regarding his release was some small little snippet on page 5 lower left column and he had to move across the country, so i get it. Really, i do. I can see thru BS very well. This isnt a case of that tho. Youre going to be hearing some very nasty things in the media about what he did to those cats. I hope you have the stomach for it.
********************************************
Claude we are in the majority everywhere but this strange place. I know you’re not a “troll” that word is used to describe anyone that knows Tyler is guilty because of facts & evidence released thus far.
For some unholy reason most of the regulars who frequent this thread deny any evidence exists, go figure?
OK maybe you’re not aware DP I guess I expect anyone with half a brain to know when things just don’t add up, like how Tyler got scratched. Far fetched at the least, unbelievable is more like it. So y7ou give him the benifit of the doubt. But I suspect if he was caught on film you’d deny what your eyes saw when it comes to Tyler, that’s all.
“… anyone with half a brain to know when things just don’t add up, like how Tyler got scratched. …if he was caught on film you’d deny what your eyes saw …”
Finally, we agree. (sarcasm) All we have so far is the official theory, and you’re right: it doesn’t add up. We’ve yet to hear from the defense but I imagine there are reasonable explanations for any thing which has been selectively leaked to this point. As to the ‘scratches,’ I’ve offered one feasible possibility. It aligns with what Tyler told officials. It makes sense, and it doesn’t require mental gymnastics to arrive at.
If there were a couple of witnesses, that WOULD make a huge difference. There are none. Cops everywhere at night, watching Tyler, GPS tracking that puts him only “near” where they believe a crime took place… (he lives in the area, it is not strange to be traveling in the area)… all the suspicions and LE presence and yet no one EVER sees Tyler doing anything wrong. Defies logic.
Two caveats.
1. The time of his travel is strange if for no other reason than the activity cycle of most human beings, doesn’t include 2AM walks.
2. His travel, if correlated to a pattern, is questionable.
Otherwise, same place, same argument, same notes.
Caveat #1 “The time of his travel is strange if for no other reason than the activity cycle of most human beings, doesn’t include 2AM walks.”
Factor in the following: he’s 18, it’s summer, he lives in Miami (area)
Caveat #2 “His travel, if correlated to a pattern, is questionable.”
“IF” indeed… time will tell.
1. May 14th 2009, 2:00 AM was a Thursday morning on a School day. Being 18 can excuse a lot of things, and being Miami can excuse a few more, but 2:00 AM when he’s required by law(he has to sign papers to withdraw) to be attending school in just over 6 hours, is reasonably suspicious.
2. Pattern recognition does not have to be accurate to produce a pattern, but conceded, correlation is a difficult subject here. It has to be reasonable.
Florida mandatory school attendance runs 6-16 yrs of age, but Tyler was not attending his high school anymore, was he? Hadn’t he been suspended/expelled? He was working at a community center, wonder what his schedule was.
The affidavit says he stopped attending Miami Killian Senior High School in November of 2008, but, I had been led to believe that he had returned to Palmetto Senior High School that spring by someone else. Let me find a link to make certain of this.
I think behavior of 18 year olds varies dramatically.
At 18, my daughter is usually home by 10 or on occasion, as late as midnight.
At 18, I was newly married, and home most evenings and nights.
At 18, my sister was out partying till all hours of the night, and would come stumbling home as late as 2 or 3 am.
The important thing here Jason, is what was HIS normal pattern. Was he always a night owl? Did he often come home late in the night/early morning?
There is a very wide span of “normal behavior” for something like this. While wandering around at 2am is close to the border of this span, I would not say it is over the edge. Especially if he was habitually out late.
I am not trying to make a case either way. The hours during which he was walking around certainly are relevant towards establishing the “possibility” of guilt, but they are not a smoking gun. If he had a solid alibi for the times in question, it would be proof of innocence. Not having an alibi however, is not proof of guilt.
“If convicted, Weinman, a recent high school graduate, could face a maximum sentence of 158 years in prison, State Attorney’s Office spokeswoman Terry Chavez said.”
From the Huffington Post article on June 15th
Recent is anyone’s guess, but I’m going to see if I can find any newspapers that listed graduations for any of the High Schools in the area.
Found this:
“Several classmates say they suspected that Weinman may have been suspended from Palmetto last year for possible possession of marijuana (the school board wouldn’t confirm this, but said he didn’t graduate from Palmetto).”
Earlier in the article:
“Weinman’s peers say his alleged crimes don’t square with his image. They describe him as someone who’s smart but doesn’t apply himself. He has a girlfriend and periodically throws parties at his parents’ houses (they’re divorced). “He was a fun kid, always having a good time,” says one of his classmates at Palmetto High School who attended a few of those bashes and asked not to be named because of the high-profile nature of the case. “He didn’t take anything too seriously.” Weinman, who favored a surfer look, taught children sailing at Swim Gym Aquatic Sports Camp. “All the kids loved him,” says one fellow camp worker, who also requested anonymity. “He was voted favorite counselor one session.” None of the acquaintances interviewed by NEWSWEEK recall seeing Weinman inflict harm on any animals (though he dissected a cat in an anatomy class, according to a Miami Herald report). He had a dog at his mother’s house and was playful with it, according to a neighbor. He’d aim his index finger at the pooch and say “Pow!” and the dog would respond by falling over, the neighbor says.”
http://www.newsweek.com/id/204932
I saw your article from Newsweek, but Max hasn’t approved the link yet. (any time someone posts a direct link in the body of a message, the spam filter will catch it first, to help cut down on spam)
Tyler claims a High School diploma on his now deleted MySpace account. Huffington says he was a recent graduate, the school board says he did not get a Diploma from Palmetto, but won’t say if he got a diploma or not.
If he was attending a public school, he would have to give notification if he wasn’t going to attend, but it looks like he may have been expelled because of the first Marijuana possession charge.
Odds are high that the prosecution will attempt to add his school records to the proceedings early on. That may come up in an early hearing. There’s another procedural hearing on the 4th of August. We haven’t heard anything since some of Tyler’s possessions were returned on the 11th of July. You can send a letter to the judge of that hearing asking for a more public examination of the evidence at hand, in an attempt to promote a more civil dialog on this very heated case. It might be the easiest way so far to get anything, since even a full list of the warrants’ contents seems to be hidden from the public.
“There’s another procedural hearing on the 4th of August. We haven’t heard anything since some of Tyler’s possessions were returned on the 11th of July.”
Any word on what items were returned?, or what the hearing on the 4th is for? — defense motion to dismiss? lol (j/k but, you never know…)
(Thanks for the info re posting links, Jason… I had posted portions of the Newsweek article that caught my attention, and I usually post the source link for reference; not necessary?)
Perfectly necessary, and I just wanted to note I had seen it when I was responding.
I think I may have been under a false assumption based off of what Tyler had on his Myspace and the original Huffington Post article, stacked with a discussion with a friend in Florida.
So here’s the time line: Tyler got kicked out of his old high school, and ended up going to the slightly more strict high school. He didn’t like wearing uniforms, didn’t respect authority, and generally acted up in school, until he was arrested for drug possession and then expelled in November. He was not getting along with his new step mother during this period.
He got busted for drugs again, while a suspect in this cat case, and that’s when they started applying the child psychology sociopath profile to him. Acts out in school and questions authority, drug use, are signs of sociopathic behavior, but they’re also signs of a teenager angry because his parents got divorced and his dad just married a woman he hates.
They did investigate a the sinks and water hoses at the mother’s house and the associated drains, which if those come up clean, begs the question of how he cleaned up the mess, and lends credence to the mistaken animal attack theory you’ve forwarded.
If he is a High School drop out, ambling home in the dark during a school week, might be the sort of thing he just does. His hours at a local Jewish community center, may or may not have been strictly enforced. They seem to be community service hours related, perhaps something to do with his juvenile conviction, but then why were they so limited?
Maybe he does have a diploma. By my Senior year, I had enough credits to graduate if I completed a Senior English(and Tyler had more credits than I did, thanks to his semester based system, my classes were 6, 6 week long units, he could take almost half again as many credits in the same time period and by November, may have completed enough of his classes to get a probationary diploma, he was awaiting a ruling from the school board on). Tyler’s not an idiot, he’s just not very focused and the first High School he was kicked out of was one of the best in the district if not the whole state of Florida.
There’s almost always a motion to dismiss at procedural hearings. There’s very little concrete, but odds are the defense will be asking for a laundry list of items to be returned. They’ll ask for samples of anything being tested in the labs. They’ll probably ask for a list of expert witnesses the prosecution intends to call, something the prosecution will put off to a later date, but may be required to give a partial list to.
Because burglary and trespassing charges are involved, the Defense is probably already trying to make small settlements with those complaints to get them removed from the list. If they’ve managed to get any signed paperwork from any of those folks, they’re going to show up with them at that hearing. If immediately after that hearing, the number of charges against Tyler suddenly drops, don’t be confused that it means there’s less evidence, it simply means the defense attorney is spending money wisely, guilty or innocent, to reduce the total number of charges.
All great info. Nothing to add but one thought re: (4) burglary charges:
These are based on the assumption that a) a person killed these cats, b) Tyler is that person, c) therefore Tyler must have climbed the fences to place the remains…
If the premise if faulty, i.e. animals, and not a human, are the culprits, then we expect no witnesses to TW’s climbing any fences, there would be no blood found (the cat, w/ half pint of blood total, would bleed out quickly on scene), and there would be no evidence found anywhere on scene, or discarded nearby that implicates human cruelty.
This is in fact what we have here: no witnesses, no weapon, no blood, so barring a surprise from the DA (bloody clothing/weapon tied to TW), seems the burglary charges fall apart. If the burglary charges fall… wouldn’t that necessarily impact the other 19(x2) charges?
I just hope and pray that IF this young man is innocent he will have the courage NOT to plea this out in order to avoid a jury made hostile by the media’s spin in this case; the reporting of every anonymous leak by LE as if it were proven fact. This is a sort of ‘mental extortion’ on the part of the state, and the prospects have to be terrifying if you’re innocent.
Correction: in my ‘burglary charges’ analysis…
If the 4 burglary charges fall apart for lack of evidence, that would leave *15* (19 minus 4) cat deaths, and a mighty big logic problem for the state.
If he can get paper from most or all of the Burglary residents, he can get the Burglary charges dropped without facing them. It drops 4 of each of the remaining charges as well. It’s just good sense from the defense standpoint to get people to drop charges when they can.
As far as negotiating a plea, if this is all the evidence they have it would probably be a bad idea for him to plea out.
Hypothesizing…
IF the burglary charges were dropped for lack of evidence, and if the cats remains in these fenced-in yards appeared to be “mutilated” just as the remaining 15… without eyewitnesses to a crime, without blood evidence… how on earth do they make the leap that “those weren’t by these are?”
Another quick thought: would have to look for them but, in early reports, 2 or 3 owners were QUOTED as saying that they had INITIALLY believed their cat had been “hit by a car” and/or “attacked by a dog,” … UNTIL they read news reports about the “cat killer.” That’s HUGE!
Jason-DueProcess has consistently built her arguments on might have beens and precedents that require proof in their own right–and she is getting better at presenting them. In the absence of that proof or proof to the contrary, I reasonably consider the possibility that I’m wrong. In this case, it would still piss me off if Tyler got off on a technicality, but I can still be a bigger man and admit that there’s a possibility for Tyler to be innocent of some or all of the charges.
******************************************************************
But that’s where her arguments always end, she stops short right before the proof required & never provides it. Anyone can theorize fantisize anything & put it on paper. All she’s done is provide theories & conspiracies not like the affidavit that although the info is circumstantial, it’s still fact & evidence.
DP has provided no facts or evidence to counter the affidavit & other facts we know. It’s all in her head, wishful thinking, or maybe not even that, just flat out lies to defend tyler for reasons I’ll never understand. Look at the totallity of his actions, behavior, evidence, not what DP makes up but so far what we know. It strongly suggests guilt which is why you are at 77% that he is the cat serial killer.
That was a perfect response. No venom, just the facts and presented beautifully. You didn’t have to attack her as a person, you attacked her methods. That’s holding up a mirror and letting the mirror do the arguing for you. It’s calm, rational and a reasonable strategy, but to push any further from those positions, you have to show something new. Everyone is entrenched. No one here has a vested interest beyond what we’ve already stated. I’m a cat dad, you’re an accomplished animal activist, and DueProcess is a stated civil rights activist (not racial rights, but the fair and due process of law and the extension of habeas corpus. Civil rights are natural rights and freedoms to protect from unwarranted government intervention in your life and the fair and ensured ability to participate in politics and civil life).
You think DueProcess might be related to Tyler or his family in some way. I originally suspected that too, but I’m fairly certain she isn’t, based mainly on her reasonable concessions. She hasn’t conceded everything I want, but almost no arguments end that way. I think I know who you are now, but I think you’re still trying to sort out how best to phrase your argument. You have to admit, DueProcess has come a long way from what she was posting on other sites, throughout the internet. She’s admitted as much.
You have too, if you’ll start in your early posts and come on through. Part of that should be a tip of your hat to DueProcess. Part of that should be your own adaptation to the “game” we have to play until more information comes along.
Very well stated, and I can definitely live w/how you’ve described myself, and my motivation, “…DueProcess is a stated civil rights activist (not racial rights, but the fair and due process of law and the extension of habeas corpus. Civil rights are natural rights and freedoms to protect from unwarranted government intervention in your life and the fair and ensured ability to participate in politics and civil life).” Excellent!
See: Current “cat mutilation” Cases, new topic @ Facebook group “Tyler Weinman did not kill 19 cats.”
Just pulled (and posted) several cases, [current and recent] and in the process of searching these stories learned that coyotes are now becoming a problem in Florida.
In Texas, another 18 year old young man has been arrested (July 24) for the death of a dog which belonged to a judge (his grandchildren). The young man liked to run at night… he has also denied any involvement.
I have not included obvious cases of animal abuse/cruelty in this list, (the perpetrator typically admits the act(s)), but have instead listed just the cases where cat remains were found on people’s property, appearing “mutilated,” along w/pertinent articles re predators of outdoor cats. Warren (Tyler Weinman did not kill 19 cats) has posted several articles which indicate a clear pattern that these are in a category by themselves, i.e. animal predation – NOT human acts. (strong patterns)
Tyler’s case fits this category, according to every pattern I’ve looked at [and described in detail in earlier posts] in these animal predation cases. Anyhow, thought I’d post this here if anyone’s interested in taking a look.
Jason says- I’m a cat dad, you’re an accomplished animal activist, and DueProcess is a stated civil rights activist (not racial rights, but the fair and due process of law and the extension of habeas corpus.
****************************************************
I don’t know if I am but thanks. I just try & do my part where I live. It’s not like I go globe trotting to protests & get arrested. But what I do where I live does keep me busy. Maybe because I’m in the country & when animals find me I’m all they have before death.
Just this week I added 2 stray dogs to my menagerie. They still won’t let me touch them but I’m working on it. I’d like to get them vet care, a flea tick bath… It’s going to take time but at least they are eating & resting in our barn. Since there’s not many houses where I live it’s meant for us to find each other.
About Tyler, I’ve run out of arguments. Even friends & I have been rehashing the same info because you’re right Jason.. it’s at a stand still..nothing new. So I’ll reserve my angry opinions until after the trial. I want to be wrong, think he’ll get by with it. Or maybe I don’t want to set myself up for a major letdown if the cat killer goes free.
We’ll all have to wait no matter our opinions. Everything we’ve said doesn’t matter to those deciding Tyler’s fate. Not even some with delusions of grandeur who think what they say makes a difference, it won’t where it counts.
Jason- glad to hear you’re a cat dad. I never used to be a ‘cat person’ until we moved to the country & I came in contacts with so many ferals that needed help. You learn they really have personalities & are loving. I always preferred dogs but now I care for them equal. Both species need us & cats are not as independant as some people think- they need love & care.
Even ferals can’t fend for themselves & live a long life because we domesticated them. It’s a sad situation. That’s why everyone should spay & neuter all cats…and dogs until no more overpopulation or shelter animals being euthanized by the millions.
Looks like Tyler offered a partial confession…
Tyler Weinman, the South Miami-Dade teen accused of slaying 19 cats, offered to tell detectives “about one or two cats” if they made criminal charges on “the rest go away.”
“OK, so let me see if I understand. As long as I tell you about the cats that I did, you can get rid of the others?” Weinman, 18, asked Miami-Dade detectives in an interview shortly before his June 14 arrest, according to court documents released Wednesday.
But the interview with police was stopped, the documents reveal, when Weinman said he “would need to get my attorney involved” — effectively invoking his right to a lawyer.
miamiherald.com/459/story/1163195.html
Continuing w/the “news” article:
But the interview with police was stopped, the documents reveal, when Weinman said he “would need to get my attorney involved” — effectively invoking his right to a lawyer.
Prosecutors believe his words are crucial to their case. But Weinman’s lawyer, David Macey, disputed their accuracy.
“The reported statements are either misleading and or false,” he said. “The real statement will never be heard because the investigation — with its unlimited resources — failed to find a tape recorder. They did not want to record the truth, that Tyler Weinman is innocent.”
————————–
Also, the article states: “”He was stopped on May 15 for running a red light. Officers discovered a bag of marijuana, police said.”
A “bag?” Really? –”police said.”– Strange, the affidavit states ” a gram.” Maybe it was a teeny weeny bag??
————————-
I checked in here to post my comments on this article, the typical crap that passes for news today (regurgitated pablum fed to media by LE)… to inquire how it is that they are able to get away with this BS… To express my shock at how stupid they must think we are.
Sadly, it would seem that their condescending assessment of our (generally speaking) ability to question anything when reading their trash, is correct.
There’s not much new in this article. This is the first time the actual words were used, but the police did mention some suspicious comments in the interview.
Tuesday might hold some biological evidence for the case, but barring that, this is a different cast to the same thing.
Jason, does this mean that LE can write anything and enter it w/court documents without any sort of proof at all?? Isn’t it safe to assume that the media would get the document and rush to print? That’s pretty damn scary! No recording, no evidence re: the veracity of LE’s relaying of TW’s words…and yet it ends up, unfiltered, in the “news!?” This raises my blood pressure in a big way.
A Law Enforcement official can be used as an expert witness on a variety of topics including confessions. Tyler had a duty to himself to keep his mouth shut and call a lawyer, or arguably, he had a duty to himself to confess his crimes if he’s guilty.
I don’t think this is a bomb shell. I think the earlier testimony, if admitted is the bomb shell. I think discussing the sound that a cat’s skin makes when it tears is worse than everything in this particular article. In a Zoo lab in college, I dissected as part of a group a large, treated cow. The experience was completely different from cutting up meat in a kitchen or slaughtering a pig.
In High School, I dissected a frog, an earth worm, a crayfish, and several other small critters (never, ever a cat), but the process was very sterile, very disassociated from the killing. Discussing the details of the killing would be more damning than statements like:
“I don’t like Prison,” and third person narratives on what the cat killer might do. The sound of a cat’s skin tearing is a detail of killing. It’s a concrete experience that I can only describe as similar to the death of a pig before he’s strung up over the cauldron, or after you’ve plucked a chicken and are pulling the skin off. There is a sound when you are cutting skin on a recently dead animal that to be honest, I doubt a “city boy” like Tyler would ever have been exposed to, had he not been involved in these killings.
I still believe he did it, but I think this article is theater. I think some of the test results came back and there’s blood on one of the tools, they can prove its cat blood, but haven’t finished testing to see if it is related or not to the cats that lived in his mother-in-law’s home. This Wednesday release, suggests they’re aiming for the Tuesday release to begin something like this:
“Last week, we released some information about a partial confession this week, I can finally release to you some of the physical evidence, and it’s not pretty…”
Then, a stoic faced officer or spokes person will show pictures, show instruments taken and then will cap it all off with the one piece of forensic evidence they’ve found. That one release will be used to validate the entire list. If he’s guilty, that’s a good thing, a theater like experience that they like to call a home run. If he’s somehow innocent, and they have the wrong man, it’s a body blow to the defense that will be hard to recover from.
Lady, the cops didnt release it to the media. Documents were filed in court and the media got a copy there. You sure did leave a lot out of your quoting the rest of the article. Wow, theres a shock. BTW, speaking of stupid… you take stupid to a level ive certainly never seen b4. Face it. The guy is guilty. Youre simply a lost cause. Just like Tyler.
Claude, I extended an “olive branch” to you long ago which you never acknowledged. That’s fine, certainly your prerogative, however calling me “stupid” is both juvenile and unnecessary. The apology I offered was for my sarcasm in responding to your insults. So I figure it’s a wash.
I didn’t come here tonight to argue with you, only to post my thoughts on this article. You don’t have to agree with me.
Also, this type of inflammatory “reporting” based on nothing verifiable serves no purpose but to boost ratings and further the official story. I may be overreacting but I am angry at how little the media cares about anything other than their own profits, whatever damage they cause to a person’s right to the presumption of innocence, to their chance at a fair trial, is all “fair game” in this war of words. Personally, I think that’s despicable.
Whereas you are simply a troll, Claude. Get a life
“Whereas you are simply a troll,”
Awwww you poor little bawl baby. I musta struck a nerve. Poor little fella. Your comment is the definition of a troll. Dont like it? Tough.
Actually, this is the definition of a troll:
“Trolls can be existing members of a community that rarely post and often contribute no useful information to the thread, but instead make argumentative posts in an attempt to discredit another person, concentrating almost exclusively on facts irrelevant to the point of the conversation, with the intent of provoking a reaction from others”
Sorry. Try harder next time. I’m cool as a cucumber, not feeling provoked at all.
“Sorry. Try harder next time. I’m cool as a cucumber, not feeling provoked at all.”
If that were the case, i wouldnt have heard from you at all. ;)
Don’t flatter yourself, claude… I responded out of boredom. I respond to alot of people out of boredom. You’re nothing special. *Yawns and stretches* However, you have been instrumental in helping me waste company time.
“Don’t flatter yourself, claude… I responded out of boredom. ”
And it only took you 2 minutes. Cool. And you actually want to blame me for you wasting company time? LOL, awesome.
Not blaming you. I am thanking you for helping an otherwise total loss of a day go by a little more quickly. For your information, people might take you a little more seriously if you didn’t cut and paste from their comments. :)
Claude, how can you call anyone stupid when you type before as “be4″? Really, are you that damn lazy? My 14 year old niece sends me texts like that. Also, if you feel the information is wrong, you should really come in here with evidence proving such in a civilized, instead of blasting people on here.
“Claude, how can you call anyone stupid when you type before as “be4?? ”
Its called internet shorthand. You’ve never heard of it? How long have you been online? And you want to talk about stupid? LOL, cute.
sweet. Somebody picks and chooses what he replies to. Awwwwwww. My main man Tito called you lazy in the second sentence, if you care to read that far. (And yes, I would term this a provoking comment.) Back to chillin’
Further thought (because this garbage really ticks me off) …
Okay, after seasoned professionals spend 8 hours interrogating an 18 yr old who had already been up the prior what? 12-15 (or more?) hours… and they CLAIM to have a “PARTIAL CONFESSION” (is this a new legal term??) for which they have NO EVIDENCE whatsoever because no one recorded it??? And we are to take their word for this?
Is this still the USA?
(I am so disgusted with media acting, not as collectors of fact but, as the sole distributor of the “official theory” on everything these days. In some countries, we recognize this definition as propaganda, not news.)
“because this garbage really ticks me off”
Good.
“The case against him is largely circumstantial, but could be bolstered depending on results of blood, hair and DNA lab work done on knives and clothes seized from his parents’ houses and cars.
Miami-Dade police say Weinman was found around crime scenes in the middle of the night, had hands-on knowledge of cat dissection and sported scratches consistent with cat claws.
An electronic monitoring device on his car also placed him in the area during one cat killing, according to an arrest warrant affidavit.
When the mutilated cat bodies began appearing in late April, detectives quickly homed in on Weinman. He was stopped on May 15 for running a red light. Officers discovered a bag of marijuana, police said.
In his interview with Detectives Dominick Columbro, Raymon Haar and Ramon Llanes that night, he showed off scratches he claimed were from a stray cat he had fed.
He told the police: “If you drop the marijuana charges, I’ll tell you about the cats,” according to the court documents.
How the interview unfolded from there is not documented in court filings. Weinman was charged with marijuana possession.
Weinman was not interviewed again until June 14, after a warrant had been issued for his arrest.
Columbro was joined by Detective Jon Robert and homicide detective Sal Garafalo.
After agreeing to talk without a lawyer, Weinman was asked what should happen to the cat killer.
“Help out. I don’t really like jail,” he responded, according to the documents. “Though when it comes to violent things, I think they should . . .”
“Weinman did not finish his sentence,” the documents state.
Also, Weinman also denied having X-Acto knives in his bedroom, “but [he] had them in his car,” according to the records.”
Its only downhill from here for the boy. Hehehehehe
Claude says, “Its only downhill from here for the boy. Hehehehehe”
Contrast this statement with the following (re-posted from earlier comments):
DP: “…would rather defend someone’s rights and find out he’s guilty than to assume guilt and discover he is innocent.”
Mazzi: “…I would rather see a guilty person go free than to railroad an innocent one.”
Claude says- Looks like Tyler offered a partial confession…
Tyler Weinman, the South Miami-Dade teen accused of slaying 19 cats, offered to tell detectives “about one or two cats” if they made criminal charges on “the rest go away.”
“OK, so let me see if I understand. As long as I tell you about the cats that I did, you can get rid of the others?” Weinman, 18, asked Miami-Dade detectives in an interview shortly before his June 14 arrest, according to court documents released Wednesday.
But the interview with police was stopped, the documents reveal, when Weinman said he “would need to get my attorney involved” — effectively invoking his right to a lawyer.
miamiherald.com/459/story/1163195.html
__________________________________________
Thanks Claude, it may be old news & nothing of importance to some…uh hum…those who’d rather play it down & sweep it under the rug. But it’s the first time I’ve heard of the little snot’s confession & it’s exactly what it is. Not only am I still 100% sure he did it, but now I have hope that LE has the goods which has yet to be released in it’s entirety. Thanks for giving an animal lover & advocate new info & a little more hope that Tyler the cat serial killer will be convicted. Let’s keep our fingers crossed that the rotten bastard didn’t cover all his tracks & they get some DNA, please!
Claude says- Looks like Tyler offered a partial confession…
Tyler Weinman, the South Miami-Dade teen accused of slaying 19 cats, offered to tell detectives “about one or two cats” if they made criminal charges on “the rest go away.”
“OK, so let me see if I understand. As long as I tell you about the cats that I did, you can get rid of the others?” Weinman, 18, asked Miami-Dade detectives in an interview shortly before his June 14 arrest, according to court documents released Wednesday.
But the interview with police was stopped, the documents reveal, when Weinman said he “would need to get my attorney involved” — effectively invoking his right to a lawyer.
miamiherald.com/459/story/1163195.html
__________________________________________
Thanks Claude, it may be old news & nothing of importance to some…uh hum…we know who….some who’d rather sweep it under the rug. But it’s the first time I’ve heard of his slimy little confession & it’s exactly what it is. Not only am I still 100% sure he did it, but now I have hope that LE has the goods which has yet to be released in it’s entirety. Thanks for giving an animal lover & advocate new info & a little more hope that Tyler the cat serial killer will be convicted.
Claude the article is new, I just used the link & though the confession may have taken place months ago I think it’s a bombshell since many of us are not aware of the cowardly piece of shit’s attempt to make all but 2 of the killings go away . I’m going to put it on MS bulletins & my friends will repost it so that thousands of animal rights activists will have the latest update on the little fu**’s slimy attempt to make a deal.
Your assumption-filled hate speech makes me nauseous.
Why don’t we can the whole judicial process and just put the all-knowing folks like you in charge. Who needs evidence, testimony, a defense, facts, or any of that silly sh-t.
To paraphrase an old term, “Kill ‘em all, let Evilgene and Claude sort ‘em out.” God help you if YOU are ever accused, or no, that’s right, only bad guys are accused of crimes and you would never do anything wrong, right?
(What scares me the most is how few people there are that even seem able to grasp the importance of defending our fundamental rights.)
Evangeline is actually right in the next portion.
A defendant is innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. The court of public opinion is immune to this requirement because of free speech. To use a political metaphor, the “Birther” movement, has every right to assume that President Obama is not an American citizen.
They can say the Certificate of Live birth, isn’t a birth certificate, they can ignore the birth announcement in the Hawaiian paper on the day of his birth, they can spout off about one aspect of the conspiracy theory or another, and the only way to silence them is if the speech is slander or the printed form is libelous.
Saying, “I think Tyler is guilty because…” insert some basic facts that have been released, isn’t slander. Writing it isn’t libelous, as long as its supported by the releases from legal sources and the opinions are stated as opinions. If I came on here and was the judge or a jury member and said, before the trial, “Tyler’s gonna burn,” that’s a violation of his rights to a fair trial. If I said, “I’ve got a rope and a sturdy tree in my yard, let’s go get Tyler,” that would be inciting of a mob for the purpose of criminal activity.
I think there is a perfectly legal, narrow line here that can be walked by LE. I think this is like the prologue to many of Shakespeare’s plays, where they give you the whole plot before the play starts in the form of a flowery poem or the comedic exchange of a few characters. It’s still reasonable to be on the fence, but I still think the weight of evidence is almost damning, and will be damning on Tuesday at 4:00 in the afternoon. I have no internal insight into this case, just a reasonable understanding based on what I know about the way releases like this work. They’re going to make a few of these and odds are high the next one is going to be the completion or partial results of a forensics run. The next one, if a plea isn’t on the table, will be signed material from the “character witnesses” for Tyler.
I also think Tyler’s attorney is planning on a Judge trial on this one, like Mazzi said. A judge trial, right now, is the only way some of this is going to be set aside.
Translation, the news of Tyler’s partial confession makes him look guilty & weakens my lame defenses of him. That’s what’s really making me naseous. I don’t like anything that comes out the mouths of LE because it’s putting the final nails in Tyler’s coffin. So I’ll continue calling the police liars & Tyler an honest ‘kid’ who loves everyone, especially kitty cats.
~The notion that a defendant is innocent unless and until proven guilty is a concern for the jury when Weinman goes to trial. It’s not for us. The rest of us are free to judge or not, whenever we want, on as little or as much evidence as we require. Oh and I still say smirking is abnormal when faced with 158 years in prison unless you’re guilty & overly confident daddy warbucks will get you off no matter how much he knows you hate him.~
Brilliant! Innocent until proven guilty only applies to the jury! Beautiful! Thanks, Evangeline! Sound reasoning beats meaningless drivel any day.
You’re welcome! Really though… we disagree on one thing in particular, I don’t call circumstantial evidence in a 10 page affidavit that supports an arrest warrent plus the release in the news of a partial confession by the cat killer ‘meaningless drivel’. How did you get into the military anyway? Jesus.
Evangeline- You misunderstood. I was calling all the stupidity that has been pouring out of people’s fingertips “meaningless drivel.” I need facts, cold hard facts, not just opinions or wishful thinking. Sorry about the misunderstanding.
And for your final statement. I scored very high on the ASVAB. I’ve been in the military police for five years. I’ve become a cynic and jaded over my service. So I will consider what may have been an insult a serious question. No offense taken, in o ther words.
I like to get the truth straight, but the facts are sometimes gay
Frankly, it didn’t sound like you were agreeing with me as much as you were being snide. You called Claude a troll, he’s not. You called me a heinous ass hat among other names weeks ago, yet I refused to respond because my problem wasn’t with you at the time. Doubt you were being nice to me.
I’m over it… whatever you intended..or not…who cares. You don’t seem to know which side of the fence you’re on. That’s easy for me, I’m on the animal’s side who were tortured & killed by Tyler Weinman. I’m against any ass hole who defends a fucwad that murdered animals for sick thrills. Tyler is scum, a coward too scared to go up against someone his own size.
How can one take a side when they don’t have all the facts? It’s only possible if they don’t give a shit about facts, and simply rely on their gut feelings.
People like YOU are scary to justice everywhere. You better hope you never end up on the wrong side of a criminal investigation. Karma would indicate that you would be railroaded and no one (except DP and I) would give a fuck about your protests.
Yes, in spite of the fact that I have zero respect for Evilgene, if she were in a similar situation (in which she asserted her innocence), I would fight for her rights, too.
There aren’t many of us Mazzi, but thank God there are some!
The court of public opinion is being worked by the state via a corporate media that could give a damn about due process (or any other fundamental right) as long as its access to state sources remains unfettered and ratings go UP. (this is a dangerous bias that favors NOT asking tough questions of the official story, not even raising the possibility that what we have is one-sided and incomplete). Continued…
Wait, you have an argument ehre, but you’re missing the two pieces you have to address here.
The 6th amendment to the U.S. Constitution.
And the Supreme Court case of Sheppard v. Maxwell.
There are a lot of lower court decisions but these two are what you need to address.
From about 1941 to 1983, was a legal period in which the rights of the individual were demonstrably under-protected, but started getting better, a series of precedents were issued by upper and lower courts to help protect people from unfair exercise of the law. During the Reagan administration, a series of hard line judges began a trend that continues to this day to help law enforcement better enforce the laws on the books and gain an advantage against criminals they lost due to sentiments and practices that were considered prejudicial to justice.
If your intention is to help those who suffered unfair treatment, I urge you to look at the 6th amendment and related supreme court cases to better understand where the line is drawn. I think when you read this case, you’ll see how far we’ve come.
Sorry for the typos, I wrote that a bit quickly.
Well even more incriminating evidence. Seems Mr. Innocent tried to make a deal. http://www.miamiherald.com/news/miami-dade/story/1163383.html
Yep. It only gets worse from here on out for the guy. Im sure he has also confessed to some buddies. Usually you wait til they have tied physical evidence to him and then think about plea bargaining, but it might be a good idea to for them to consider trying that now. A couple of cops are going to get on the stand and repeat those words. Juries and judges tend to give that a ton of weight. That, with all else they have doesnt seem to look so circumstantial anymore.
Max, jot this down for future reference:
” A troll’s main goal is usually to arouse anger and frustration among the message board’s other participants, and will write whatever it takes to achieve this end. One popular trolling strategy is the practice of Winning by Losing. While the victim is trying to put forward solid and convincing facts to prove his position, the troll’s only goal is to infuriate its prey. The troll takes (what it knows to be) a badly flawed, wholly illogical argument, and then vigorously defends it while mocking and insulting its prey. The troll looks like a complete fool, but this is all part of the plan. The victim becomes noticeably angry by trying to repeatedly explain the flaws of the troll’s argument. Provoking this anger was the troll’s one and only goal from the very beginning”
Too bad, because some of them start out sounding intelligent. Oh well, C’est la Vie…
(thanks for the indirect advice, Navy)
It’s all good, DueProcess. I’m still trying to figure out how Claude thought I was bitching. a “little bawl baby” and “poor fella” don’t seem appropriate for the tone in which I called him a troll. Some people just can’t seem to take the truth, eh?
You have a nice website, by the way. Impressive
Thanks for the encouraging word re: Blog :)
I’m just glad I can differ between intelligence and idiocy
And you seem pretty smart to me :)
I can’t post a response to anyone but you… any ideas? (have a 2 paragraph response to PETA woman)
DueProcess- Some of the comments in this thread have been putting themselves wherever they please. I say just go to the “Leave a Reply” box and address the comment to her… Should work, I hope :)
nothing is working… will try later
If the page is going to a blank screen instead of posting, do this.
Send the message to yourself in a text only email, then copy and paste the post into the comment box.
If you’re more technically gifted and have vi, paste your messages into vi, and then copy and paste them into your browser window. Odds are high you’re bringing clipboard artifacts from the website or document you’re trying to copy from.
Jason, I don’t have a text editor but tried sending in email & copy/pasting to here. Nada. Meantime, have posted my response @Justice for Tyler (Facebook group)
In response to your post on facebook at 4:06PM today, EST.
I know you’ve probably done it recently, but what you’re aiming for is the 6th amendment, and it’s not necessarily on your side. You’re looking for a Shepphard v. Maxwell exclusion, where the Supreme Court states (to paraphrase) that the rights to free speech and to the press, are broad, they do not and should not impinge on the accused’s rights to a fair trial, but it’s not up to us to enforce that. It’s not the job of the “mob” and I make that in the kindest of lights, in our private and public conversations to police our free speech. Our free speech is protected. It’s the court and Tyler’s attorney who need to address this protection. You can shout about how you think it’s unfair, but unless or until Tyler or his attorney make moves in this direction (which actually doesn’t serve him as well as you might think) then we and Tyler deserve a public trial.
It’s working, your brain isn’t. Take 2 aspirins & a long break from your get Tyler off mission. It might help, but I doubt it.
So now you’re the People You’ll See In Hell cop too? Who gives a shit, if it doesn’t bother Max wtf.
You know, Evangeline, I was actually being serious when I complimented your statement on innocent until proven guilty only applying in the jury chambers. DueProcess was asking a legitimate question and I was answering her. I was tyring to be kind and embrace your viewpoint, because I agreed with it and you turn around and snap at me. It is not appreciated. I apologize for insulting you, however. Unfortunately, you will probably not show me the same courtesy. However, I will just turn the other cheek from now on when dealing with your comments.
Sometimes that is all one can do.
Again, that was sound reasoning to state that “innocent until proven guilty” is for the jury to decide. It really is inspired.
Until you choose not to insult me for agreeing with you, I bid you adieu
Calm down. She’s been doing that shit to eveyone. Apparently, her shit doesn’t stink in her eyes. Soon, she’ll see that even if we may agree on some things she may have said, people on here will be quick to take her down for her terrible attitude.
Tito is right, and I have to learn to ignore the lunatics.
I have to say that, reading all of the latest rants she’s posted against me personally (the numerous incorrect assumptions and ignorant accusations), it’s a little unnerving to think this freak could be my neighbor. Aside from this one poster, I really like coming here.
Frankly it didn’t sound like you were agreeing with me as much as you were being snide. You called Claude a troll which he’s not, I know him. You called me a heinous ass hat among other names weeks ago, yet I refused to respond because my problem wasn’t with you at the time. Doubt you were being nice to me.
I’m done… whatever you intended..or not…who cares. You people don’t seem to know which side of the fence you’re on. That’s easy for me, I’m on the animal’s side who were tortured & killed by Tyler Weinman. I’m against any ass hole who defends a fucwad who murdered animals for sick thrills. Tyler is scum, a coward too scared to go up against someone his own size.
So, you say you’re against people like Tyler, right? I’m sure all the regulars on here are against him too. So, why is it, if you say you’re on the same side of the fence we’re on, do you CONTINUOUSLY pick battles with members on here? I’m not getting it. Claude, you say, isn’t a troll. But he comes on here, slanders people, calls them stupid? What for? You’ve come on here and being quite honest….I believe I’ve never seen anyone come on here, speak so much, and say absolutely nothing. 90% of your posts have meant not a damned thing to me. Both of you need to really understand what I mean by this. I never slander anyone unless I’ve felt it was needed. I don’t mean to slander you, but when you cross the line into the mine field, you’ve bound to hit something soon.
Tito – this wingnut is the only one (of 700 members) that I’ve ever had to ban from Facebook group, Justice for Tyler (Gina Anne, LA). I don’t think she has any control over her mouth or her thoughts, she certainly exhibited no respect for any other member, insulting them much as she has me, here.
general note:
The worst accusation she makes is that I support a cat killer. I’ve responded, several times, as clearly as I know how that I do not, and would not, condone acts of animal cruelty; that I defend Tyler’s rights because I do NOT believe he has committed the acts he is accused of. Regardless of my opinion, he has stated that he did not kill these animals, and until there is anything beyond speculation and innuendo (no matter how inflammatory) to indicate otherwise, I believe he deserves the presumption of innocence. (As to the court of public opinion?” BS – the media has effectively polluted any potential jury and in doing so has undermined Tyler’s right to a fair trial and an impartial jury)
Jason says:
July 30, 2009 at 4:55 am
Evangeline is actually right in the next portion.
A defendant is innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. The court of public opinion is immune to this requirement because of free speech. To use a political metaphor, the “Birther” movement, has every right to assume that President Obama is not an American citizen
******************************************
I know I’m right we live in America not a dictatorship communist regime. To say otherwise makes a person look stupid & suspicious of their agenda-motivations. That’s why most articles like the recent one stating Tyler gave a partial confession has a section for r4eaders to post their comments/opinions about the subject. Freedom of speech is something I’d expect a military person to be familiar with. But there’s a gang mentality at this thread & they don’t even know what they are arguing about anymore or who’s side they’re on.
The title-people you’ll see in hell which strongly indicates Tyler’s guilt. But in their opinion no one should have the right to make such a bold statement.
I said a while back they were wishy washy & brain dead but I didn’t realize how many of them DP got to.
I think the old senile hag DP is fucking with their heads & they can’t think for themsleves anymore.
I was rebutting DueProcess and supporting your opinion.
If you’d wanted a more reasonable way to argue your position, you could have brought up:
“If the court gags the opinion and testimony of Tyler in the public eye, how can someone ask for the DNA blood results and other possibly exculpatory evidence from being presented? You can’t ask for it both ways, either the evidence of the prosecution and defense are public aspects of the trial, or both sides must request a secret trial.”
Either the Defense also shuts up the case, possibly to the detriment of their own case, since interest in the case is the easiest way to promote sympathy, or the case becomes sealed to the public scrutiny, through the freedom of the press, and we all suffer from secret and unconstitutional courts.
“If the court gags the opinion and testimony of Tyler in the public eye, how can someone ask for the DNA blood results and other possibly exculpatory evidence from being presented? You can’t ask for it both ways, either the evidence of the prosecution and defense are public aspects of the trial, or both sides must request a secret trial.”
Jason, I may have misunderstood this but… has the defense actually had a chance to rebut any of these leaks yet? Hasn’t the case been instead, as it is so often today, that all we’ve heard is the highly prejudicial state’s version? This is what I object to; the state has full access to the public by way of the press, the public is inflamed against the accused, long before we ever get to hear from the defense. (you can hardly call the insistence that TW is innocent a fair rebuttal, but until they see state’s evidence it’s about all they can do)
They are rebutting these pieces.
The Attorney’s statements have sown doubt (doubt you’ve even cited on three separate occasions).
They’ve bloodied the nose of the warrant with a return of some of the materials seized under warrant.
They’ve stressed the circumstantial nature of the evidence, and they managed to post bond and get Tyler past the State appointed psychiatric evaluation. They’ve even engaged a clip service that I can only imagine is attached to a small PR campaign.
Clip services are agencies that serve law offices by collecting and collating any mention of Tyler in any popular media. They collect these clippings (based off of old Newspaper clippings) so that they can be used to evaluate message penetration and determine a course of communication triage. Right now, Tyler’s attorney is probably saying, “let this die down a little, and then we’ll retaliate, for now, I’m going to lay the foundation, and see where we are.”
That’s assuming there’s no bombshell.
And they’d be negligent in serving their client if they didn’t do these things, but they all sound like “push back” to me, no?
Until discovery they wouldn’t have a chance to examine state’s evidence and so, much of what is implied (press) has to go without a response until it is turned over… meantime the state makes information available that appears on face to help them… large imbalance. Am I wrong?
I think you’re missing the power of the power inherent in our system.
HBO had a series a year or so ago about the life and times of John Adams. One of the first scenes was the Boston Massacre. The press of the time wanted these men dead. The burden of proof against them in the opening portion of the case was significant. It had been their guns, it had been their actions that had seemingly caused the death of the rioters. The presumption of the jury at that time had to have been that they were guilty. In fact, it was often declared at the beginning of trials that the common man could not but assume that men in chains, brought before the court, could be anything less than guilty.
The issue though, of the time, was that you could not and would not torture or punish these men without the due process of law. That was the presumption of innocence. You wouldn’t tear their fingernails out and put them to the question to force them to confess to the crime before the trial. You wouldn’t break a man or woman until they had a chance to present defense in their own case. Trials were overwhelmingly stacked against their accusers, because crime was a fact of life and if you got caught, you were more than likely guilty.
The soldiers of the Boston Massacre got off on a reasonable line. The cinematics of the series suggest that it was Adams’ defense acumen that held up(the entire trial in the series is in fact a complete fabrication of events, it was a soldier who admitted he said, “damn you fire”) , I’d argue that the pressures of the crown were not insignificant, but Adams did present precedent that it was the duty of a garrison to defend their barracks and their persons against aggression, and it was hard to deny that there had been aggression planned to provoke a political incident. I’d also argue that the sons of Boston and other “freedom fighters” of the time, wanted the acquittal of the soldiers in this case to lend fuel to the fire of their cause and printing presses.
At the end of the trial there was an acquittal of 6 of the men and 2 of the men were convicted of murder. At sentencing, John Adams managed to get those two convictions moved to Manslaughter due to a loophole for servicemen who felt threatened and were in uniform. Our sixth amendment was broadly, but indirectly influenced by John Adams and the Massachusetts State Constitution, specifically Articles 12 through 15. These in turn are extensions of English Common law, the previous constitutions of the Colonies and popular liberal thinking of the time.
There’s a movies concept of justice and a real world concept of justice. In the real world, most people arrested, are guilty of the crimes they committed, but there’s a process where their crime has to be exposed, prodded and can be overturned. A confrontation of accused and accuser to insure that every reasonable chance to challenge conviction can be made if the evidence is there to support it. In the cinematic world guilty men get off from crimes and innocent men are convicted by circumstances made from the echoes of the system in an effort to add dramatic overtones to a very serious process. The corruption of the courts is an old theater theme, but can be overplayed.
I respect your passion, with connection to this case, but I think it misses the point. Tyler may be guilty of all charges, but still get off because of a procedural hurdle, because of the presumption of innocence, but it does not protect him, even after the case, from public opinion. They can’t hurt him physically, but Tyler can still be “punished” by social pressures, just as OJ Simpson can be.
Jason, allow me to voice my strong disagreement. First, The Boston Massacre shows not that Adams was a smooth talking lawyer, but rather presents a perfect example of the impartiality of the law. Adams was a passionate supporter of independence from British rule, the soldiers garrisoned in Boston would have been an affront to he and every other liberty-loving colonist, the “massacre” presented an opportunity to make a point and gain support for their pleadings w/the crown, and yet Adams saw fit to remain principled (against what had to be tremendous public anger) and to fight for the soldiers rights under law. This is objectivity; to defend the rights of those against you as equally as any other.
The Magna Carta, the foundation for common law, was established long before The Boston Massacre, as you rightly imply. It was and remains the guiding force behind any system that hopes to hold men EQUAL under law. (although I would argue that the great principles this document embodies have been undercut in large measure by a systematic dumbing-down of a populace that no longer see the relevance of a document penned almost 8 centuries ago, in another country…) From archive(gov), Magna Carta:
“King John placed himself and England’s future sovereigns and magistrates within the rule of law.
When Englishmen left their homeland to establish colonies in the New World, they brought with them charters guaranteeing that they and their heirs would “have and enjoy all liberties and immunities of free and natural subjects.” Scant generations later, when these American colonists raised arms against their mother country, they were fighting not for new freedoms but to preserve liberties that dated to the 13th century.
—-
The other point I go apoplectic over is the assumption that:
“…In the real world, most people arrested, are guilty of the crimes they committed.”
How are we able to ascertain the number of innocent sitting in prisons? How many, because of a media beholden to the state for access and favor, have been pressured into ‘taking the deal’ rather than risk their fate w/a jury poisoned by reporting favorable to the state? How many even understand that the burden is on the state NOT on the defendant, and WHY this is so important? Blackstone’s, “…better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer” has lost all meaning in a world where the majority now believe the opposite!
In Tyler’s case, there has only been speculation, no hard, verifiable evidence has been presented (or answered to) as yet… we further have a young man who asserts his innocence and a very large number of people who actually know him backing this assertion up. Certainly this case is reason to support the “presumption?”
If evidence later surfaces that proves he did as accused, then by affording him every benefit of doubt, by avoiding a media-induced lynch mob mentality, we can be assured that he received a fair trial… a fair trial in turns reduces the risk of convictions being overturned, etc…
Maybe I’m cynical, but I see Adams participation as part of a “negotiated” settlement. Some of those soldiers were going to be convicted of the crime, but hanging red coats was off the table from the beginning(Gage was simply not going to allow it to happen, nor was the Governor), even though at least one of them deserved it. Adams was no Tory, but he initially wanted a negotiated autonomy that left the crown’s prestige intact, but gave the colonies self-rule. All that aside, Adams was a smooth-talking lawyer. His cases that survive to this day were practices in his verbosity. He’d speak for pages and pages of court transcripts about the ancient Greeks, Romans, and even the Celestial kingdoms to show he was the smarter man, and thus his arguments must be more intelligent and more right than others. It’d be hypocritical of me not to recognize the benefit of that sort of argument, but all the same, he was a smooth talking lawyer, and his goal in the case was to keep the majority of the defendants out of the noose, but make sure the mob in Boston got their convictions. A justice he hoped could not be overturned.
To the Magna Carta, I concede it’s one of the sources, but the works of the enlightenment and the works attributed to the Athenians were as important to common law’s stipulations as anything else. Men were still tortured under English common law. Oliver Cromwell allowed the use of pressings as punishments under the law, and they were used extensively in Salem, Massachusetts in 1692. The stocks, strappado, and public lashing were all still available. There was something new in the U.S. Constitution’s Bill of RIghts. It was a more explicit statement. of Due Process.
They also brought with them rules of war, that if they’d abided by all of them, they’d have lost the revolution. There was a rejection of many of these common understandings. The tarring and feathering of men and women by mobs would suggest that vigilante justice, which Adams abhorred, were alive and well. I prefer public discourse in the press and on websites that verbally tar and feather to the concept of painting someone with pitch. The public trial is a way to satisfy the mob’s need for participation in justice without condoning vigilante justice. If we don’t have both sides throwing us bits of this and that from the courthouse steps, then we incite the mob to reject justice they aren’t party to, either for or against.
This was a pun. Everyone is guilty of the crimes they “committed,” unless they’re found to be incompetent to stand trial.
There’s a defense attorney trick, it’s called “Don’t get arrested,” and it’s one of those rare ways to avoid a presumption of guilt. Tom Delay turned himself in, rather than be “arrested.” He gave this giant smile during his processing, wearing a nice suit, with the intention of making the photo look less like a booking photo and more like a press release head shot. It was a managed effort to thwart the number one weapon at the hands of any prosecution. Your presumption of innocence in the public eye is null when you’re forced into the walk of shame and custody. I think what you’re really frustrated with, is there’s no way to combat that now. In the public eye, the first body blows to the defense were made with hand cuffs and later a significant bond. If the prosecution could have found any way to add “sex” into the equation of the initial release, they’d have scored the big one. They managed to draw attention to his work with a Jewish community center(racial/religious tension), drugs (bad marijuana user, bad), his education (naughty student), his prior record…
The list from early on was pretty strong.
But the defense is answering these now. They’re painting the picture you’ve been using. The big, rich, police department with their “black boots” (NAZI reference), evidence-less, baseless claims is trying to frame a sweet young boy who is loved by many. The police just don’t understand him, and he was just smoking Pot, which 40% of Americans are believed to have at least tried.
There’s a script both sides are playing from. A formula like you might use every day at work. If there’s no physical evidence, the police will probably lose, and lose so badly that Tyler walks away with millions. If there is physical evidence, Tyler is going down for the count. My guess is 30 years.
As far as innocent people in prison…
It seems to depend on whether you believe arrests are mostly wrong?
See: The Innocence Project, and Google “wrongly accused vs press”
A couple of good quotes:
“Perhaps an editor might begin a reformation in some such way as this. Divide his paper into four chapters, heading the 1st, Truths. 2nd, Probabilities. 3rd, Possibilities. 4th, Lies. The first chapter would be very short, as it would contain little more than authentic papers and information from such sources as the editor would be willing to risk his own reputation for their truth. The second would contain what, from a mature consideration of all circumstances, his judgment should conclude to be probably true. This, however, should rather contain too little than too much. The third and fourth should be professedly for those readers who would rather have lies for their money than the blank paper they would occupy.” –Thomas Jefferson to John Norvell, 1807
“An editor [should] set his face against the demoralizing practice of feeding the public mind habitually on slander and the depravity of taste which this nauseous aliment induces. Defamation is becoming a necessary of life, insomuch that a dish of tea in the morning or evening cannot be digested without this stimulant. Even those who do not believe these abominations, still read them with complaisance to their auditors, and instead of the abhorrence and indignation which should fill a virtuous mind, betray a secret pleasure in the possibility that some may believe them, though they do not themselves. It seems to escape them, that it is not he who prints, but he who pays for printing a slander, who is its real author.” –Thomas Jefferson to John Norvell, 1807
Great response Jason! (and yes, I missed the “…they committed” snare lol)
I guess what bothers me is that we seem to have become a nation of “Enquirer readers” without even realizing the shift… I mean, most folks choose “news” over tabloids (although their numbers are huge so somebody’s buying lol)… but the “news” has become (or am I just becoming more aware of it?) as bad as the rumor-filled gossip rags.
The majority of these stories are examples of the failure to question anything. Pick any story, any topic. Whereas the role we’d like to see media playing is one of impartial collector of fact, in point of fact it has been reduced to the role of mouth piece for the state. Profits/ratings are all that seem to matter anymore, the idea that innocent people are harmed by their biased reporting simply creates “another story.”
I do agree that it’s better to have the “tar and feathering” occur in forums than in courtrooms, absolutely, but the problem is that those same forums (where we have all be affected by media reports) are where the jury pools will be drawn from. Do we somehow become these incredibly objective people once we are seated on a jury? Think of Evilgene for example… I’d like to believe that voir dire would prevent her participation in judging the accused, but what guarantees are there? The process only weeds out those who are honest about their firmly held beliefs. If one were to say that they had heard about the case in the news but were willing and able to set aside anything they’d been exposed to in favor of the facts as presented in the case – well that’s good enough.
(I’m still working on how to best state my views on this cozy relationship between state and media, meantime I can only seem to express the periphery – I’m learning though and hopefully soon I’ll be able to zoom in more effectively soon.)
Tabloid journalism is old. Jefferson and Adams called each other effete homosexuals in the tabloids of their day, and Jefferson used his access to secret documents to publish presidential secrets in the press of the time, to the detriment of President Washington. Hearst and Pulitzer dueled with yellow journalism. McCarthyism almost tipped this nation into full blown facism, and Reagan era press fluffing pulled us by the nose through a trough of piggish ideals–thank goodness there’s a 50% excise tax on Green Mailing, or the corporate raiders would use the news agencies like they did then.
We’re no better and no worse off right now, than we have been over the last 8-16 years.
You’ve made my case: how on earth, and why, do we trust anything they print? You’ve actually hit on the ‘bigger picture’ idea I have for my blog… beyond criminal cases, to foreign policy, economics, national security… every walk of life, in every important area, the role played by media has been reduced to ‘conduit for talking points,” issued by the powers that be (local, state, federal) who themselves are in bed with corporate lobbyists… conflicts everywhere, truth nowhere.
no better or worse than the last 8-16 years…
(‘war,’ torture, warrantless searches, civil liberties, etc., etc., etc. through it all the press could be counted on to push the ball forward)
What’s sad is some of these people seem to be reproducing, either pregnant or with tottlers. Are they teaching their children not to have opinions, to wait until a verdict is decided on every crime they read or hear about on the news? Their offspring will be mindless androids scared to protest or fight back against injustices like human & animal cruelty.
Thanks for the udpates claude & corymia, I’m goona try to stay off this site awhile. I’m sure I pissed off the natives again & they’ll be calling me a troll psycho whatever…
Problem is Tyler’s lies have changed a lot but the truth remains the same. It’s getting harder for Tyler’s apologists to keep up with & defend his outrageous stories (getting scratches protecting cats trying to bring inside, but never getting them in) bla, bla, bla on & on.
Karam’s a bitch & all Tyler’s cowardly actions, lies, attempts to make a plea deal are coming back & to hurt him now. He’ll get what’s coming to him no matter what. Tyler will recieve what he’s given to this world & innocent animals in it, a life of pqain suffering & hopefully an early grave!
DP says to Jason- Do I sound like an 80 year old granny senile hag?
********************************
IMO, uh yeah you do, one with a seriously twisted agenda. To get a cat serial killer out of his just punishment. Good thin nobody takes you seriously anywhere else but here, they laugh at & mock you & suspect you have ties to the Weinmans every other place I’ve seen you spewing your half assed conspiracies & stuff you just pull out of a hat in that Tyletr fantasy land you live in where he’s a feline’s qangel of mercy who was trying to save them all…from himself dumb ass!
Jason, no argument with you, I understand what you were doing. perfectly. You’re treading a thin line between 2 strong opinions & trying to remain civil & reasonable. Thanks.
I’m too lazy to look up the law like you do Jason, but I know you were supporting free speech & admire your thorough tenacity.
I base my opinions on hearing the case so far, weighing the evidence. But I also run high on emotion & what I know is right & wrong.
This crime is something I take very personally because of life experiences & what my passion is, animal wefare.
Jason- I have limited free time today to look up facts to back my arguments as you seem to do so quickly & easily, but I know you were supporting free speech & admire your thorough tenacity.
I need to get off the computer now actually & tend to 2 stray dogs, the latest addition to my rescue family. You have a lot of knowledge of the law which is why everyone loses a debate with you. I’m rushing to type now which is why you’ll see many errors/typos.
I do base my opinions on hearing the case information so far, weighing all the evidence. I read the 10 page affidavit when it was first released July 6 or 7th. But I also run high on emotion & what I know is right & wrong.
This crime is something I take very personally because of life experiences & what my passion is, animal wefare.
You’re an intelligent, cool & level headed young man, I can only aspire to be so grounded & have your outlook & temperment.
Jason says:
July 30, 2009 at 3:11 pm
I was rebutting DueProcess and supporting your opinion.
If you’d wanted a more reasonable way to argue your position, you could have brought up:
“If the court gags the opinion and testimony of Tyler in the public eye, how can someone ask for the DNA blood results and other possibly exculpatory evidence from being presented? You can’t ask for it both ways, either the evidence of the prosecution and defense are public aspects of the trial, or both sides must request a secret trial.”
Either the Defense also shuts up the case, possibly to the detriment of their own case, since interest in the case is the easiest way to promote sympathy, or the case becomes sealed to the public scrutiny, through the freedom of the press, and we all suffer from secret and unconstitutional courts.
**************************************************************
Cool, I agree just don’t express it as well as you! I should get out of here & leave the real debating to you. Honestly no one here comes close to you! Leave em in the dust Jason & like you said awhile back when the verdict is in there’s going to be plenty of upset people here who will feel betrayed by little Tyler Weinman. I admit I can’t wait for that day.
DueProcess says:
July 30, 2009 at 8:33 pm
Tito is right, and I have to learn to ignore the lunatics.
I have to say that, reading all of the latest rants she’s posted against me personally (the numerous incorrect assumptions and ignorant accusations), it’s a little unnerving to think this freak could be my neighbor.
Fuck you, I wouldn’t waste my time on a delusional fan of animal abusers. You are hopeless, a lost cause why would I ever bother you in any way shape or form if I actually got near you persoanlly.
I wouldn’t want touch you with a 10 foot pole crazy old lady. Your sick twisted view of animals & the way they should be treated might rub off.
I communicate with people who care about the lives of sentient being & you stupid narrow minded bitch are not one of them. I loath you & certainly want nothing to do with you. Remember any arguments we’ve had started because you confronted me as I was ignoring you completely… OK remember that…..
Source for the excerpts innocent until proven guilty: http://boortz.com/nealz_nuze/2009/07/innocent-until-proven-guilty.html
He made some excellent points.
EVILgene: “…Remember any arguments we’ve had started because you confronted me as I was ignoring you completely… OK remember that…..”
And she calls ME ‘delusional??!” Any comment I’ve made in response to her vicious lunatic-fringe attacks have been MILD in comparison.
Gina Anne (Facebook) started posting here under “anonymous” – her very first post attests to who began what. She then started using “evangeline” and anyone can look to her first post under that name as well. (I started using “evilgene” after discovering that “evangeline” means “good news,” as in the Gospel)
Mixing meds is dangerous and I would put forth this lunatic’s ravings as proof.
hmm i wonder what will be happening to this kid. I live about 10 minutes away from where he was doing all the “cat killings”. Though my kitten is an inside Cat, and I live in a gated community I still was frightened by this. My husband and I made sure doors were locked, as well as installing a new lock. We were terrified that if he wasn’t caught he could move on to humans. Not a joke, it was seriously freaky :(
April, you said that you live about 10 minutes away “from where he was doing all the “cat killings””
In spite of what you may have heard from a certain mean-mouthed commenter here, I am interested in others’ opinions, and I do not jump on anyone for differing with me (I’ve jumped on her because she has a foul mouth and attacks/insults seemingly everyone).
So my question is: other than the fact that Tyler has been accused of these alleged crimes (which on its own is not proof), what in particular convinces you that he did, in fact ‘do these killings?’
~OK …here’s a little civics lesson for you. This “innocent until proven guilty” thing ONLY applies to government.~
The idea that a person is innocent of a crime until he has been convicted is a complete absurdity. Once you’ve murdered someone, you are a murderer. You don’t become a murderer when the jury says “guilty.” You become a murderer when you pull the trigger. You’ve taken a life. Jury deliberations don’t change that.
The purpose of the “innocent until proven guilty” concept is to hold a tight rein on government. Government, you see, is the only entity out there that can legally take your life, your property or your freedom. Our founding fathers saw fit to require that the government prove you’re your guilt beyond a reasonable doubt before these actions are taken. So … the ONLY place where this “innocent until proven guilty” standard applies is to government attempts to punish you for a crime. It doesn’t apply to me or to you because we aren’t empowered to carry out punishment.
Only the government is forbidden from assigning guilt without due process, and there are plenty of exceptions to that rule, by the way. As for me .. as for the people … we are perfectly free to assign guilt based on our beliefs, knowledge of the facts and understandings of the circumstances.
Example: Most believe that O.J. Simpson butchered his wife. He’s a murderer. Having money to hire a ‘dream team’ pay off families and victims does NOT make you innocent.
Ah, the start of another day, and I’m awake to greet it. Gang, I’ve come to the realization that it’s okay to have people dislike me. Yes, I have had an epiphany. Now that that announcement is over, I have also come to the realization that Tyler Weinman is neither the first nor the last in the long line of individuals who have admitted to torturing animals. Ah well, yes, they exist, but in the long run, do they matter? No, they do not.
Why is your cold hearted message no surprise to me? So “it doesn’t matter”, oh really?
To animal lovers, violence against animals is cruel and unfathomable. To the rest of the world, it is ‘just an animal’. Humans matter more. But aren’t humans really the cruelest species of all? Most animals kill for food and territory, but humans kill also for sport, entertainment, fashion, and cosmetics!
Many researchers have found that a history of animal violence indicates a high propensity for interpersonal violence. Simply, those who abuse animals usually move on to human victims. Although not all animal abusers become serial killer, most serial killers began their killing spree with animals. The difference is that those who do not learn that it is cruel and wrong. In any case, repeated and extreme violence indicates a serious psychological violence.
ANIMAL VICTIMS/HUMAN VICTIMS:
REPORTS FROM POLICE CASE FILES
“Russell Weston Jr., killed 12 cats, by burning, cutting tails, paws, ears off, put chemicals in their eyes, blinding them, forcing them to eat poison, hanging from trees; the noose loose enough to create a slow and painful death. Later killed 2 officers at our Nation’s Capitol.”
“Jeffery Dahmer loved to dissect animals (he learned this in school). Later he dissected boys, and kept their body parts in the refrigerator. Murdered 17 men.”
“1998 Springfield, Oregon; Kip Kinkel 15, set a live cat on fire and dragged the innocent creature through the main street of town. He walked into his high school cafeteria and opened fire on his classmates. Two classmates were killed, 22 injured, 4 critical. Same day police found his parents shot to death in their home.”
“Albert De Salvo, the “Boston Strangler,” would place a dog and cat in a crate with a partition between them. After starving the animals for several days, he would remove the partition and watch them kill each other. He raped and killed 13 women by strangulation.
“Richard Allen Davis set numerous cats on fire. He killed all of Polly Klaus’ animals before abducting & murdering Polly Klaus, aged 12, from her bedroom.”
Andrew Golden 11 & 13-year-old Mitchell Johnson, tortured and killed dogs. A friend of Golden stated that “he shoots dogs all the time with a .22.” On March 24, 1998, in Jonesboro, Arkansas; Golden and Johnson shot and killed four students and one teacher during a fire drill at their school.”
“Luke Woodham, age 16, wrote in his personal journal that he and an accomplice beat, burned and tortured his dog, Sparkle, to death. Woodham said it was “true beauty.” On 10/1/1977, Woodham stabbed his mother to death and then went to his high school where he shot & killed two classmates — two girls aged 16 and 17, and injured seven others. In June 1998, Woodham was found guilty of 3 murders and 7 counts of aggravated assault. He was sentenced to 3 life sentences.”
“Ted Bundy was forced to witness animal cruelty by his grandfather. He later killed thirty-three women.”
“Henry Lee Lucas killed numerous animals and had sex with their corpses. He killed his mother, common law wife and an unknown number of people.”
“Edward Kemperer cut up two cats. He later killed his grandparents, his mother and seven other women.”
“Richard Speck threw a bird into a ventilator fan. Killed eight women.”
“Randy Roth taped a cat to a car’s engine and used an industrial sander on a frog. Killed two of his wives and attempted to kill a third.”
“David Richard Davis shot and killed two healthy ponies, threw a wine bottle at a pair of kittens and hunted with illegal methods. Murdered his wife, Shannon Mohr Davis, for insurance money.”
“Peter Kurten, the Dusseldorf Monster, tortured dogs, and practiced bestiality while killing the animal. Murdered or attempted to murder over 50 men, women and children.”
“The Kobe Killer, an as yet unnamed 15-year-old boy in Japan, beheaded a cat and strangled several pigeons. Decapitated 11-year-old Jun Hase, and battered to death a 10-year-old girl with a hammer, and assaulted three other children in separate attacks.”
“Richard William Leonard’s grandmother forced him to kill and multilate cats and kittens when he was a child. He later killed Stephen Dempsey with a bow and arrow. He also killed Ezzedine Bahmad by slashing his throat.”
“Tom Dillion murdered people’s pets. He shot and killed Jamie Paxton, aged 21; Claude Hawkins, aged 49; Donald Welling, aged 35; Kevin Loring, aged 30; and Gary Bradely, aged 44.”
“At 9 years old, Eric Smith strangled a neighbor’s cat. At 13 years old, he bludgeoned four-year-old Derrick Robie to death. Smith lured the little boy into the woods, choked him, sodomized him with a stick, then beat him to death with a rock.”
“When Jack Bassenti’s dog had puppies, he buried all but one of them alive. He later raped and murdered three women.”
“David Berkowitz, “Son of Sam,” poisoned his mother’s parakeet out of jealousy. He later shot thirteen young men and women. Six people died and at least two suffered permanent disabilities.”
“Arthur Shawcross repeatedly threw a kitten into a lake until the kitten drowned from exhaustion. Killed a young girl. Then, after serving 15-1/2 years in prison, he killed 11 more women.”
“Michael Perry decapitated a neighbor’s dog. He later killed his parents, his infant nephew & two neighbors.”
“Jason Massey killed cats, dogs and cows. Killed his thirteen year old stepsister & a fourteen year old boy.”
“Patrick Sherrill Stole neighborhood pets and encouraged his dog to attack them. Killed 14 people at his workplace.”
“Keith Hunter Jesperson, “The Happy Face Killer,” strangled a cat. He is known to have killed at least one woman.”
“Joel Steinburg refused medical treatment for his adopted daughter Lisa’s pet rabbit when it broke its leg. He later killed Lisa who had extensive bruises all over her body from repeated abuse.”
*********************************************************
(For more information, visit First Strike: The Connection Between Animal Cruelty and Human Violence)
One of your better posts, but unfortunately it’s in the same format DueProcess started out with.
Statement of facts without digestion.
I know you say you don’t have time to look up facts and respond to arguments, but you’re making the time to argue, make the time to make the points in your argument, pack a wallop.
Jason, you are a good and patient teacher. But as any teacher will tell you, there are some people who just can’t learn.
You have not been able to break through to Evangeline. She is irrational and illogical and doesn’t show the slightest sign of breaking through that brittle shell. I don’t think it’s possible.
She is so certain that she is right that she will never be able to accept the possibility that she could be wrong. Her anger about animal abuse is admirable, but her head is so firmly shoved up her ass, that it’s almost embarrassing to watch, lol.
I just got back, and looked through the last few days of her (and her two henchmen’s) vitriol, and I have to say – it’s a lost cause. Hopeless. You should cut your losses now. Your valuable time is wasted on her.
Jason, just a thought —
If *I* had remained immune to the advice you, along w/Mazzi and Max, were decent enough to give me early on… would you still be giving *me* the benefit of the doubt?
You enjoy the role of ‘tutor,” and you’re good at it (patient) however, doesn’t good instruction require a willing student?
hmmm…. interesting thought…..
So, the first person I “professionally tutored” was this Third grader down the street, when I was 11. He couldn’t read, and he really should have been taught by a specialist in the field. He wasn’t retarded, he was simply distracted. I bribed him with M&M’s and skittles and he’d write what I said or read word by word in a reader he had from school.
The second person I tutored was a Step-Cousin. He too had reading problems. I didn’t see him after my mother and step-father divorced, but he’s currently in the 3rd year for an 80 year sentence as a Meth runner/mixer, so he apparently was able to read enough online to learn how to mix meth. I’m not proud of him(a gross understatement) and my patience with him is non-existent. He chose every mistake he made and I’ve thought about writing him up for this site and still may.
I have patience for skills. I will patiently teach someone how to use Excel, SQL, or even Java, and have tutored people in everything from Reading to Statics, but I’m a judging sort of personality. I teach well only if the student either wants to learn or wants to learn from me. In an argument, my first step is to look for points to score off of. The first point that can usually be scored is one with a mirror. If someone isn’t directly insulting me, then holding up a mirror to that argument fails. I can try and be corrective of an argument, as long as their argument is unsound or poorly formed. I think evangeline is actually quite intelligent, but she’s almost got a red-headed temper that shoots first, shoots second, shoots third, reloads, and keeps shooting until there’s no bullets left.
That “tenacity” can actually be channelled into an effective style. Tenacity can be a replacement for patience, and an inspiration for thoroughness. Your strength is determination, but determination can be a blind spot for fallacy. You are determined to see Tyler free. You are determined that he will get a fair trial. You are determined to strike down unfair accusations. That determination is great, but determination is alien to the word “maybe.” “Maybe” is where this argument needs to sit right now. Maybe Tyler is guilty and deserves to be in a prison for the rest of his life. Maybe Tyler is innocent and he needs to be exonerated and firings need to occur at the Police department and DA’s office.
Do I have a limit on my patience. Yes. I’m part Cherokee, part Irish, part Scot, mostly mutt, 5 generations+ American, and I really should have been born with red hair to warn people around me that when I do get angry it’s the last straw.
I comment on here on things I know about or I feel strongly about, and I leave most of these articles alone.
To answer your question, Evangeline is trying my patience, but I have another saying for that.
“Never ask God for Patience, because he’ll TRY it, every time.”
When I hit my limit, it will show.
Jason, love the saying about asking God for patience ;)
On the “determination” point though, you said that I am determined that Tyler go free, that he get a fair trial and yes, I desire every person who is accused of a crime –provided they have not already confessed to the crime, there are no eye witnesses to a crime, there is no direct evidence to prove the accused committed a crime– to receive a fair trial. Don’t you?
As to his being set free; I’ve asserted my belief that Tyler did not do what he has been accused of, I have explained how and why I came to this conclusion. I have also stated (repeatedly) that if evidence arises which undermines my theory and proves (in the strongest legal sense of the word) that he did, in fact, kill these cats, that he should absolutely pay with the full force of law against him. I am passionate about my views in this case, but I’ve never stated that regardless of the results of testing that I would want him to walk. If he is guilty, I would not.
Can we settle on “determined, but reasonable?”
Conceded, but I’ll throw in politely “stubborn” as an extension of determined. This is a much better way to argue than the paleolithic method of seeing which of us has the bigger stick and will swing first.
Honestly Jason, that “big stick” is the problem.
I like to think that, in cases like this, where there is, at best, circumstantial evidence, people will choose sides based on their own interpretation and/or gut reaction and/or likely probabilities, and/or whatever else makes them tick.
From that point, it should be a rational and civilized debate about why each person feels a certain way, using whatever rationale they used to form their initial opinion. That is productive and interesting. Whether it changes someone else’s position or not is irrelevant in the big picture.
But some people demand that everyone think as they do – usually without presenting clear-cut evidence. They proceed to wield their big stick around and insult anyone who dares disagree with them.
This is what Evangeline has done. She has accused me directly or indirectly of all manner of laughable ideology – from being an animal-killer-sympathizer to being a lesbian. Not just me but DP and Navy as well. For some reason you Max have not been targets. Why us, and not you? (Since you and Max and I are usually lumped together by the trolls). Easy – because you and Max are leaning towards Tyler’s guilt. DP and I are undecided, but vocal about the methods being used to condemn him. In other words, you (mostly) agree with Evangeline, thus she doesn’t need to “punish” you. Those who don’t line up behind her? That’s a different story.
That’s what got me pissed initially. I don’t really care if I am one the same side or not as a nasty troll. If they start swinging their stick, I will call them on it. And, Evangeline is a nasty troll in my opinion. Her sole objective is to get people to agree with her, using any means necessary. Thus, nothing she says means squat to me. She has proven time and time again that she will twist and distort (and probably out-and-out lie) to get her way, so anything she says is going to be met with suspicion from me, unless it is documented elsewhere. And not just “documented” on some other message board or blog, lol.
Sorry for the rant. I know you know all of this already, but it made me feel better.
Animal abuse is one of the MacDonald triad warning signs, and no one disagrees with that. You are preaching to the choir here.
IF Tyler, (or anyone else) killed those cats, then they are a potential danger to society. Punishment – maybe combined with some sort of treatment – is warranted.
The question is – was it TYLER? If he did not, in fact, kill the cats, then the warning signs are moot.
You seem to be combining your deep rage that the cats were killed, with the fact that Tyler was accused of doing it. But you don’t have the evidence that Tyler killed the cats. All you have is rumor, innuendo and snippets of facts. You base all of your ranting and bile-spewing on an undocumented suspect.
Maybe the investigators have more evidence. I hope, if Tyler is guilty that they do. But regardless of whether he did or did not kill the cats, we do not condemn people in the US without evidence.
Feel free to warp this into your twisted rationale that my view makes me a cat-killer-supporter. I expect it is coming. But I have just jad a nice long vacation, and I am up to dealing with your insanity. (So long as you don’t start talking about your sick sexual fantasies again.)
By the way – didn’t you say that you were leaving? At least twice? Why are you still here? Take your hateful spew elsewhere, and take your two little toadies with you.
Navy – Tyler Weinman has not “admitted to torturing animals.” That’s a large difference considering most who do harm animals have exhibited the traits prior to killing an animal, and readily admit to their sick acts.
To anyone:
Again, for the record,’s, Tyler circle of support: adults, authority figures, friends, pastors, etc… ALL say that they know he did not do these things, these people have observed him for years, and around animals… do their insights hold no weight??
correction:
Again, for the record, Tyler’s circle of support:
Sorry, DP. I have no business being awake at this hour. Unfortunately I am working 3rd shift. I thought for sure he admitted, but ah well, I make mistakes. But he doesn’t matter in the long run, does he? The animals do, sure, but if he gets imprisoned, we’ll forget all about poor little Tyler.
You’re right Navy, if he’s found guilty we’ll forget all about him, and let’s add that even if found to be innocent of the charges (i.e. pathology tests prove than animals killed the cats, another person was responsible, whatever), once this is over, whatever damage he’s suffered, we will forget about him and his family and move enmasse to the “next story.”
We might forget it, but do you think Tyler will? Assume he is, in fact, innocent. What damage will people like Evangeline, Claude and others have done to him?
If he is guilty, I have no worries about his psyche – he deserves public scorn and ridicule. But he is getting that now, with no proof of guilt. THAT is totally wrong.
If he is innocent, people like Evangeline better start worrying about their afterlife plans, because no matter what religion one prescribes to, causing someone unwarranted misery is gonna be a big no-no when one has to step up in front of their God. Actually, they should worry any way. If they are right or wrong, it is a 50/50 shot. I suspect that the mere fact that they did what they did with no proof will be enough to make them have to start ‘splainin’.
“What damage will people like Evangeline, Claude and others have done to him?”
Havent done anything to the guy. I simply post news articles from the web and i also happen to think hes guilty. I just simply dont drink your koolaid. Never will. Im POSITIVE theyve got the right guy. Ive spoken to a few who know tyler and he isnt the saint that you would like to believe. I knew about this partial confession a couple weeks ago. I also know a few other things that you will be finding out about. You keep making this ignorant claim that there is absolutely no evidence. That just is not the case. Some of you act as if everyone else who doesnt share your views is somehow brainwashed by the media. Again, thats false. A friend of mine was once falsely arrested. It was for murder. No, he didnt do it and no one who knew him thought he did. His face was splashed all over the front page of the paper for several days. A week later when they finally caught the real perps, he was released. And yes, all there was in the paper regarding his release was some small little snippet on page 5 lower left column and he had to move across the country, so i get it. Really, i do. I can see thru BS very well. This isnt a case of that tho. Youre going to be hearing some very nasty things in the media about what he did to those cats. I hope you have the stomach for it.
We won’t forget him. If he’s found innocent on the cat charges, an undisclosed sum worth 10′s of millions of dollars will be his and 2 or 3 people will be fired, very publicly and sued, very publicly.
If he’s guilty, we won’t forget him. I’ll use him as a metaphor, like Dahlmer or Cheyenne Cherry until the day he dies.
Will he recover? Will Max post a retraction?
Will Max post an update?
I think there’s enough here to say with a more than fair chance of being right that he’s guilty. It’s one piece of evidence more than any other. It’s Tyler’s mention of the sound. I KNOW that sound. Not from a cat, but from something very, very specific.
The tracking, the “tools”, I think there’s more needed to convict him, but in my own mind, I can say I “think” he’s guilty. It’s been my position from the beginning.
I think Claude and Evangeline have been less than civil. I think their arguments have been deeply flawed by it. I’ve at times thought to myself, “GET OFF MY SIDE, you’re making it look bad!” but I think they’re actually good people, with a brain, who are letting bad habits lead them down a bad road.
Claude and Evangeline have at least added to the topic. They’ve been abusive, but I’ve been abused here before. I have thick skin and so do you and DueProcess.
“I think Claude and Evangeline have been less than civil.”
I disagree. I am civil to anyone who is civil towards me. When it comes to DP, ive had her experience all over the web. She has harassed so many people to point of no return. She may change her style here, but at the very same time, shes doing her same old routine everywhere else. She is reaping what she has sewn. Had you been on those other threads, you might understand that. Frankly, im not here that often. Good grief, since when is posting a news article update, hate? It isnt, but for anyone who thinks hes guilty, all she does is accuse you of spewing hate, vitriol, and whatever else she can think of. Should i buy her ice cream for that? I really dont think so.
I’m getting sick and tired of reading the same BS about how I harass everyone “all over the Internet” if they don’t agree with me. Put up or shut up. Find posts I’ve made that fit your bill, paste them right here — in context w/what I was responding to — and then we’ll see.
And “all over the web??” Get real. The only other non-moderated site I’ve posted on is Topix and I haven’t returned there since finding out there are SANE PEOPLE left in the world (and they reside @ PYSIH). I, like any one else, am free to comment on any news story I read, and I have done so, consistently posting my reasons for what I think happened in this case. When attacked I’ve let others know they were not required to read or think about anything I post. The Facebook group I co-admin is moderated fairly and no one is required to agree with me… we debate our views, intelligently and respectfully.
As for shooting back at the loons; guilty as charged… normally end up kicking myself for the total waste of time getting into it with them consumes, fortunately there aren’t too many of them (although Topix seemed to have a disproportionate number).
I have been straight in my assessment of Evilgene, calling her out for her grudge against me re: loss of membership at Justice for Tyler, for which she has never taken any responsibility (her uncontrollable mouth and total disregard for rules is apparently my fault). She has been extremely insulting toward me, accusing me of everything but JFK’s assassination, and she deserves whatever I lob back at her. Claude though? The most you could find would be some sarcastic initial comments I posted in response to his rudeness – so what? I”ve never equated you w/Evilgene, but you know… I’m getting ready to start.
Hey DP. I just started actually looking into this stuff myself, rather than just reading about it. I found out a few rather interesting things. Maybe someone has already figured all this out, but I hadn’t read it anywhere.
First of all, it seems that the Akache cat times are off. (also, there seems to be an error in the affidavit.) According to what I read:
1)Tyler was charted in the Akache neighborhood by the GPS 2 days BEFORE the cat was last seen. (ie: irrelevant?). (That was .3 miles from Akaches house)
2) He was charted there again between the time cat was last seen on June 5, and turned up dead on June 6. (.3 miles from Akaches house. Around the same place as #1)
3) He was charted in the area again, some time on June 6, after his first visit. (no time given) (The affidavit says it was .3 miles from Akache’s house, but map quest says it’s .6 miles)
That sounds pretty damning, until you consider that according to an eyewitness, he was in the neighborhood at about 1:30pm – after the cat was discovered (which would presumably be the second June 6 chart – number 3 above.) So, we are missing a time for him to have either picked the cat up, or dropped it off. They say the cat was not killed there.
So anyway, then I was thinking about the fact that the neighborhood is pretty far from his houses, which made it pretty suspicious that he would be hanging around there. Then I map quested his High School and the Jewish Community Center he worked at. Not only is the Akache neighborhood right between his houses and the school/Jewish Center – but the driving directions take you RIGHT through there.
So, if that’s the case, then he is probably quite familiar with that area from driving to school and work.
That doesn’t explain why he was there, but it certainly explains why he COULD have been there. Have you read anything that might explain why he might have been there? A girlfriend maybe? There is a shopping mall a few blocks away too, and a city park. Maybe a place to pick up some weed?
Oh and about the affidavit – I map quested it twice, and it is between .5 and .61 miles from 14000/14020 SW 92nd Avenue to 9241 SW 147th St (Akache’s house). The affidavit clearly says it’s within .3 miles. If they can make an error like that, what else could they make an error about?
I still don’t have an opinion on guilt or innocence, but this is really interesting.
Nice work re: map… I’ve long held that his living “in the area” would explain his being “in the area.” Not sure where his girlfriend lives but that was something I guessed at (on FB group), that and the fact that he would necessarily travel past several locations where cat remains were later discovered. The part that bothers me is that with all the surveillance (GPS, and visual), no one ever saw him doing anything wrong (see “Accused cat mutilator case – new details and findings” June 17), and MDPD are only claiming to have Tyler “in the area” (whatever the hell that means) NEARwhere ONE of the cats were found.
33 cats killed. MDPD credits dogs/animals w/14 of them, that leaves 19. Of the 19 there are no eyewitnesses to Tyler doing anything wrong, let alone committing any crime. Morning of 6-13-09 a.m., Miami-Dade Animal Control captured two stray pit bulls (one “very aggresive”) and Miami News 7 reported that Animal Control believed that they were responsible for at least 9 cat “killings” (3 Friday a.m. alone!) They even went so far as to say that hopefully now the community could relax about their pets! (it was at a party that very night that Tyler was taken in for questioning).
Found the story I mentioned to Jason eralier:
“In mid-May, when Tom and Mary Lou Shad found their cat, Miss Kitty, dead outside their house in Whispering Pines, Fla., they were horrified. “We thought perhaps it was dogs or wild animals that had killed her,” Tom tells PEOPLE Pets.”
http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/31448104/ns/today_pets/
(next: posting thoughts on ‘map of cat killings’)
Google maps “cat killings”… zoom in to the locations in M-D.
I noticed several parks nearby the clusters. I furthered learned that Florida, one of the hardest hit real estate markets in the country, has a real problem w/people abandoning their dogs (if they bother to set them free at all)… wouldn’t these parks be ideal places to drop a dog w/o anyone noticing you? How many dogs are fending for themselves in this environment? Too bad people like Evilgene don’t turn their attention to this very sad situation (Google “foreclosure dogs florida”)
Then look at the layout on the map of the incidents in Lauderhill… spread out…
M-D again:
Finally, I ask myself, how are these incidents ‘mapped?’ In other word, what are we looking at; where the remains were discovered, right? Is there any mention of time of death? Some of these cats were missing several days: WHEN were they killed? MDPD claims that, when Tyler was restricted to his dad’s place, the killings ‘shifted’ to that area… but did they? Or were they just being ‘discovered?” How many more are in bushes, in parks YET to be discovered?
Anyhow, this is the type of detailed look I’ve been taking at all of this, and that’s why I get crazy when people, who won’t pick up their little finger to ask the first question, accuse anyone who IS digger deeper of being a moron. there are far too many questions and in spite of the fact that LE has attempted to make this look all neatly tied up, it is far from it.
Seriously though, what is going to happen to this kid? he obviously is screwed up mentally- and there is no doubt in my mind he’d turn to a serial human killer in a matter of time… and yet he lives so close to me :( really scary…
I don’t think like “Well it was just an animal” but on the other hand I am glad it wasn’t people ya know? How long will this kid get in jail? What kind of help can you give a kid like this? Ugh I am worried about what this kid is capable of
LOL! how can anyone think this kid is innocent… my God people, look at the facts! I guess the killings just stopped coincidentally since he was busted! Give me a break!
April, some people are in sooooo deep, that even a video of the guy killing a cat and holding it up for the camera wouldnt be enough for them.
April, just consider this for a second. What if Tyler didn’t do it? What if the cats were killed by an animal, or even some other guy?
I am not saying that Tyler DIDN’T kill them, I am just saying “what if” it’s not him?
It does seem strange that with all of the surveillance and all the suspicion that was on him specifically, that the cops couldn’t catch him red-handed. He can’t be so brilliant that he could outsmart an entire ramped up police department, could he?
Anyway, if it IS him, what can it hurt to wait and see what real evidence the authorities have on him? Do you really want to join up with Evangeline’s lynch squad to go hang him before we know for sure he did anything besides “smirk” at the camera and be in the wrong place at the wrong time?
I did read all facts and we had to watch every day on the news about the cat killer. I have no doubt in my mind that he did it. I am not the one to judge or convict him, so my opinion doesn’t matter. I am not the justice system, therefor I can and will believe he is guilty :) I think it’s all too coincidental for me, and if he didn’t do it he is literally the most unlucky kid on the planet. his statements are chilling and incriminating.
April, the “facts” we get from the media are actually nothing more than unfiltered talking points distributed as press releases by the state that intends to try the case, i.e. who was arrested, what he was charged with, a whole lot of congratulatory BS for a job well done catching yet another “bad guy,” leaks from “anonymous LE sources” regarding evidence which may or may not hold up in court… in other words, speculation, assumption, innuendo, rumor, gossip. Without eyewitnesses, without verifiable evidence (test results) – what else can we call it? Emotional manipulation in the service of higher ratings.
Do you really want to condemn anyone based on this sort of crap? Like Mazzi said, why not hold off to see what they have that’s REAL before jumping on the “string him up” bandwagon?
who cares what anyone on the internet has to say about you.. or anyone let it go- ignore it… move on… we have a cat killer on our hands…
Careful now April– you’re treading on thin ice here. Next thing you’ll be wearing the title of ‘newest troll’ (being sarcastic). Seriously, I’m so glad you kept your cat indoors & safe from Tyler Weinman, cat serial killer.
I imagine living just 5 minutes away from where some of the killings took place was a jarring experience. It gave you more of a feel & insight to what really went on locally.
April, do you feel better about your cat’s safety knowing the killings stopped since Tyler’s arrest? I would even though you keep your cat indoors as I do there’s always that chance they could accidently slip out.
You think Tyler is guilty, I give your opinion more weight than say someone like Due Process, or even myself who lives about 1000 miles away from Miami FL. Thanks for posting your 2 cents worth but don’t expect your opinion of his guilt to be valued or met with open arms by the majority of fools at PYSIH-UTW.
I value & appreciate your insight since you were literally right in the middle of Tyler’s sadistic, heinous crimes against voiceless victims.
no problem :) I enjoy sharing my thoughts and opinions :D after all that’s all any of this is :P I do feel “safer” for my cat I guess, but at the same time after reading all the stories I have so far on here I do not feel safe at all. i am terrified of people, and I do not trust anyone. the things people are capable of is insane. I mean this started with cats, but who knows what it could have escalated to you know? I was seriously tired of hearing about the cat killer every time the news came on, and even during news briefings throughout the day… It was getting ridiculous. I am glad that it’s stopped, but I am intrigued to what will be happening to young Tyler. I am wondering where he will be in 10 years, if any rehabilitation could help him.. after all I doubt he thinks he needs help, so how can you help someone like that.. and imho if he is innocent then i don’t understand how whoever is real culprit could stop so easily, the circumstantial evidence is enough for a conviction for me. and that’s just my opinion.
How do you know the killings have stopped? Seems to me that the media whipped all the Miami cat lovers up into a frenzy about a cat serial killer, and then stopped after Weinman was arrested. But did the killings really stop?
Remember, the media has a vested interest in getting the public worked up, and the cops have as big a vested interest in shutting up the media.
It stands to reason that IF 60 some cats were killed during a month or two in the area, and only 19 of them are possibly attributed to Tyler, then about 40 more were killed some other way, right?
Consider those other 40 dead cats. Most were presumably killed by animals, right? Just tossing a reasonable number out there – lets say 300 cats are killed every year in your area. Did you ever hear about them before someone decided that there was a feline serial killer? I am guessing no. How many have you heard of since Tyler was arrested? I am guessing “not many” because I did a search on that topic and got nothing.
So, do you really think that no cats have been killed since Tyler was arrested?
Now, a logical argument might be “but the 19 cats that Tyler is charged with appear to have been killed by a human. Cats killed by animals are not “news”.
However, consider for a second that Tyler is indeed the unluckiest kid around, and is innocent. Is it possible that if there is another killer, he got smarter? Is it possible that the killer took advantage of the fact that HE got away with it, and moved to a different area? Or changed his MO? Or just that his kills are not being “marketed” by the media the way that the earlier ones were, since the assumption is that the killer is caught.
And, there is that business about the killer pit bulls who were caught the same day Tyler was arrested. Could it be that THEY were, in fact the killers?
I know that it all seems unlikely. I agree with you 100% there. But unlikely is NOT the same as impossible.That’s why we must see real evidence.
Read that affidavit. It is so vague that it is almost laughable. I’m not sure if you saw my earlier post, but I did a simple map search and saw that the paper has at least one glaring error on it. It says that Tyler was tagged as being .3 miles away from one of the houses where a cat was found. But the map search shows it to be between .5 and .61 miles away. That’s a huge difference in reality. Put a virtual dot on your house and visualize a circle of .3 miles, and then extend that circle by almost twice as far. In my neighborhood, that extra distance means the difference between my peaceful quiet community and a shopping mall, gas stations and a bunch of chain restaurants.
Again, I am not saying that the cops deliberately are railroading this guy. I am not saying that Tyler is innocent. I am not disputing the possibility that there is a human killer. All I am saying is that sometimes things are not exactly what we think they are. Once all of the evidence is presented make a final decision. Till then, though, keeping an open mind is all around the best thing to do.
Wow! Excellent post Mazzi – you really nailed the possibilities, and in doing so made it crystal clear why — especially in a case like this one — we need to proceed w/an abundance of caution!
Just read April’s post on the community’s hatred for Tyler, and that’s so scary — if he is innocent, how does he recover from this? Did you know that MDPD had started an investigation into the death threats Tyler has received (because of HOW this has been mishandled by LE and media)?
oh no I agree :) the media has a one sided argument and LE here I believe does a fair job. I do honestly believe he did it, but keeping an open mind is what I usually do. I don’t think cat-killing should be taken lightly because of what can come of it in the long run. From the evidence I do believe he is the killer, BUT on the other hand it’s circumstantial and he wasn’t caught red-handed. If i were the killer I guess with someone else in custody now would be a good time to lay back. But in reality he most likely is the killer and until he is convicted I will be open-minded IF they can find some sort of evidence that it could be someone else… Even if cats are killed by humans, they could be “copy cats” tee hee copy cats… you are right though it really isn’t fair to judge right away, but if you were here where I am hearing this on the news literally every hour, you’d be convinced it was him too, or at least have an assumption. I guess I will keep my opinion quiet until he’s convicted ;)
April, no! Don’t keep your opinion quiet. That is the whole purpose of PYSIH (well, that and trashing babyrapers…)
It’s good to have opinions, and it is perfectly acceptable to lean towards “he did it”. It’s just equally acceptable to lean towards ‘he didn’t do it”. Or as I have – “I have no fucking clue if he did it”. The important thing is that you have some basis for your belief, and that you don’t dig in your heels over something like “he smirked funny at the camera”.
My personal goal here is to try and help people see through the bullshit that we are sometimes handed by the people we should be able to trust. Remember the Duke University case? There were people even more adamant about the guilt of the suspects than even Tyler’s case. It looked REALLY bad for them. They had the victim pointing at them saying THEY DID IT. It really doesn’t get much more damning than that, does it? And when the truth came out, the boys were 100% innocent – but their lives were ruined, for all intents and purposes. And their destruction is directly traceable to the DA (Nifong, who was justifiably punished) and the media (who, of course, get off scott free).
As with the Duke case, I feel like we have to give the suspect the benefit of the doubt, until and unless there is clear-cut evidence to the contrary. If Tyler was caught with cat fur under his fingernails, blood in his car, or gave a direct confession, that is compelling. What we have seen so far is circumstantial. Add enough circumstantials together (such as if there was a 10-cat-murders long GPS record of his actions) and it can become compelling, but so far, I am not convinced that LE is there yet.
You are in a position where you may hear of news or perhaps even local gossip that might shed some light on this case. So don’t stop listening and posting about it. Just use your open mind to sift the information (consider the source and that sort of thing) before you decide how much weight to give it.
April – I second Mazzi’s comments here.
You can see for yourself that there’s a wide spectrum of opinion being expressed on this case, here: I lean heavily toward his innocence, others are taking a reasonable ‘wait and see’ the evidence stance, and many are leaning heavily toward his guilt… We don’t have the evidence before us yet, so any position can be considered reasonable as long as we remember this fact.
The fact that you are in the area where events occurred is especially interesting to me because of what you posted: “..though it really isn’t fair to judge right away, but if you were here where I am **hearing this on the news literally every hour, you’d be convinced it was him too,** or at least have an assumption.” The round-the-clock news coverage must be having a very strong impact on locals, ‘locals’ who will be the jury, if it ever comes to that. THAT is what scares the hell out of me.
Mazzi I got you pegged weeks ago. My opinion of you hasn’t changed I know what you are. Since any new responses to your newest bashing of me would be basically the same assessment of you from the beginning I won’t waste my time. If anyone hasn’t read what Mazzi is all about & why I’ve touched a nerve.
I hit too close to home pointing out her many shortcomings as a human being in general. Go back… my read my previous boring exchanges with miss sleazy defense lawyer wanna be. You’re so easy & transparent pretending what I say means nothing to you…oh but it does..the truth hurts when it’s unflattering. You remind me of a less intelligent female Rush Limbaugh a bully full of nothing but hot air .
I know this wasn’t directed at me but you know I’m taking great offense to and your comments about anyone who doesn’t agree with you.
Actually I hate this whole thread just because of you and your multitude flaky posts. Yes you are a flake but can’t you keep it to a post or two? This thread sucks and it’s all your fault.
Maybe I should be glad you stick to this thread and not contaminate the rest of PYSIH So I can still enjoy this Blog.
Do I care what you think, no. Am I not supposed to respond to about 4 of Mazzi’s recent messages that were critical of m?e. That’s 1 response to her 4. Whatever… take offense…or not. Do I owe you anything, should I bite my tongue because you like their nasty rhetoric better than mine?
I thought this was a decent place until Due Process discovered it. So it’s all a matter of opinion isn’t it? If I got booted would I be crushed, even upset not really. But I do think it would be unfair.
Also it’s a free country, if you hate me & this thread then hell, there’s millions of other blogs you might find more to your liking. why should I be worried about what you like or not when I’m being attacked. If I’m in the mood to defend myself I will, or maybe I’ll choose to ignore it.
The only one who has a say in the matter is the moderator, Max & I get the feeling he has no great love for Tyler Weinman or the nutcase Due Process who’s whole reason for living is to defend him, even if she’s got to beg, borrow or steal to do it. She’s a lying propaganda machine who’s obsessed with ‘this kid’ as she calls him Tyler Weinman. If I read her shit & am in the mood, I’ll call her & expose what a moronic waste she is. If I don’t feel like it I won’t.
What I’ve noticed is you read between everything anyone is saying and turn it in to something critical of you that you feel the need to defend….at length. then you even after you posted something crappy in your defense you don’t drop the BS.
I never mentioned DP but you just had to throw that name out there and bait DP in your response to me..am I wrong? Then you’ll be up on your soap box about how your being attacked by everyone! Boo Hoo, You want to have something to bitch about so you can say your the poor victim who was just trying to make a comment about the article. well cry me a river.
You say I wrote my post because I like what every one has to say but you? that wasn’t my reason but I do happen to like everyone elses posts but yours however I made that post because your getting on my last nerve… You use all these words and say nothing. What a waste of space and the English language.
Is it fair to me to have see five rambling posts from you in a row when you could have condensed it down to one? what about my eyes?
Yanno what your a mewling hypocrite and pretentious one at that. If your not you certainly have portrayed yourself here in that manner. You don’t have to tell me you don’t care It is pretty obvious you don’t by bastardizing this thread and making it impossible for me to partake in.
I make it impossible for you to be here? Yet here you are ranting away & actually saying nothing about Tyler, the subject of this thread. At least my posts usually stay on subject. And I post too much, have you noticed your friends unending babblings, . DP doesn’t write a message, she posts short stories, give me a break.
You are a nothing who says nothing then accuses others of the very thing that you actually do.
I make it impossible for you to be here? Yet here you are ranting away & actually saying nothing about Tyler, the subject of this thread. At least my posts usually stay on subject. And I post too much, have you noticed your friends unending babblings, . DP doesn’t write a message, she posts short stories, give me a break.
You are a nothing who says nothing then accuses others of the very thing that you actually do.
Bingo Dr. Smith. You pegged it. For people like this vile witch, it’s ALWAYS all about them. SHE thinks, therefore it is so. And anyone who dares disagree is an open target. Other posters become the enemy, and the drama goes on.
Petty, pathetic little troll. I would feel sorry for her if I wasn’t so damned disgusted by her.
To evangeline:
Now see here is a perfect example. You double posted your less than charming reply, right?
Ok let’s say I am you, after seeing your double my synapses fires that ‘You must have posted that way on purpose just to spite me!!, You are probably trying to give me epilepsy through my monitor!” where as I upon seeing it thought “hmm must have hit reply to many times – by Accident”. Do you understand what I’m saying? Everything you seem to see and hear is funnelled into a abominate filter so by the time it reaches that brain of yours you interpret what ever as everyone hates you and anything associated with you.
So that being said I don’t hate you yet, but I hate how you write and think. I hate that you made a good conversation piece into a “lets dissect Tyler’s brain piece by piece and every one who has the nerve to say something about it” trash fest. I hate that you take up all this space that could be used for interesting posts and witty retorts into a big dull piss on cat haters contest.
You single handily made this the stupidest thread here at PYSIH. this could have been a good argumentative article but they way you feel the need to sample every stinking piece of Tyler on the world wide web and post it here like Jesus wrote it himself is just incredibly feeble and boring. Lady Tyler just isn’t all that and a bag of cat killing chips.
despite it sometimes being on topic you are just plain long winded and dull.
You want me to stay on topic? Ok
Tyler the Caterwauling Clod is a murderer.
there happy?
________________________________________________
To Mazzi
yep she seems to enjoy stirring up shit and playing the victim.
to bad she is so lousy at it…or at least funny, something.
Then maybe we could feel a little sorry for her..but no, can’t
Max, is there really nothing that can be done about this crap?
Mr. Smith, today’s your lucky day! Just got a call from my husband & we’re going on a 2 week vaca. Just us & my babies (animal) at a summer home.
No computer, just relaxing & it’s really a blessing to forget & not talk about sadistic thug cat killer Tyler Weinman. I need to rid this whole sordid mess from my head. Even if it’s just for a few weeks the thought of him is making me ill .
You can have your little Tyler worship fest back at PYSIH-UTW & continue being MIND FUCKED by psycho lady DP.
Well Hallelujah! Guess there is a God after all! Good go on vacation and take your 50 some cats with ya…
They only person fuckin up my head around here is you, I used to love cats now I want to kick the first one I see.
Good Job turning me against felines.
Do you now… what kind of sick freak…weak minded ass hole wants to kick a cat because of a so called ‘troll on a blog’. Sounds like there is more to you than meets the eye, maybe another Tyler in the making? Do I twist your arm to come here & read things that make you want to kick a cat, what a stain..
what kind of freak hmm? well your the expert on cat abuse freaks around here what is your prognosis?
you surmise I’m a asshhole, Thank you for being gutless and true to form.
Dr. Smith – you should really look for the post where she wrote about Tyler’s sexual arousal. It was downright scary how “into it” she was. I think everyone kind of threw up in their mouths a bit over that. You could almost picture her fantasizing over it. It was a true *shudder* moment.
“Hallelujah!” indeed! LOL!
Sorry for your becoming the latest target but, I have to tell you; reading your responses made me laugh, created a breath of fresh air, and really put it all in perspective!
Thank you, Doc, and have a great night! ;)
Thanks DP, Glad I made you laugh.
But we should be thanking evangeline for being so easy to laugh at.
You can’t swing a dead cat without hitting one of her boring speeches
LOL!!
Look out now, Doc! Your *JOKE* –as in ‘HUMOR’– (trying to help you!), I’m certain, has just pushed wide the gates of hell!
You do the very thing you accuse me of Mr. Smith, ranting & babbling insulting others & not even staying on topic, Tyler Weinman.
Your pal DP doen’t write comments, she posts short stories but that doesn’t bother you iin the least. Whatever you sound like another typical smart ass malcontent on this thread who isn’t a fraction as clever & great as you think you are.
And if I was so meaningless & unimportant, why don’t you just ignore me? Because your another asshole like Mazzi, DP NC & the rest. You live in your little bubble here & hate being challenged. Don’t worry, you got your second home back…pathetic.
It seems certain ones dont have the ability to ignore you. Its a self control issue. You arent responsible for it. They just cant help themselves. Keep up the good work. Heck that one clown actually puts responsibility for his mind on you. Thats whats called pathetically weak. You win at that point. ;-)
Why the hell SHOULD we ignore her? She came barging in here with her big sack of feral catshit, stalking and trashing another poster. It is to the credit of PYSIH and Max’s philosophy that she was tolerated at all. She has clearly worn out her welcome now though. LOL
Claude- Thanks hun, I know you & I had “DP” aka “Georgia View” aka “Justice for Tyler” aka “Not Guilty” & all her other goofy aliases number a long time ago. If you’re who I think which will remain between us here.
I also know you’re not a troll, yet were banned by GV on FB as was I & everyone else that said he was guilty. GV was down to talking to basically one person the Warren Hart character who I really believe was a paid hack & to herself.
Yet the Peabody HS trolls that cursed like sailors & said he was a “hero & the man” for mutilating cat’s, well their disgusting comments remain on FB till this day & they weren’t banned, hmm wonder why?
Because they defended Tyler, even though they also all agreed that torturing & killing people’s pets was a “heroic & admirable” thing for Tyler Weinman to do.
You’ve always been very cool & level headed, much more so than me! So for the people here to call you a troll raises red flags as to exactly what kind of people we are dealing with.
FIRST:
“DP” aka “Georgia View” aka “Justice for Tyler” aka “Not Guilty” & all her other goofy aliases…
PETA: Georgia View is my name on Facebook, whether Justice for Tyler or any other group, get it? I’ve never posted as “Not Guilty” so don’t know where you get that from. But, if we’re playing the name game, how about “Gina Anne,” “anonymous,” “evangeline” and whatever “other goofy aliases”…
2ND:
“I also know you’re not a troll [Claude], yet were banned by GV on FB as was I & everyone else that said he was guilty.”
PETA: I have already posted a lengthy response to this – you continue to lie. I have only banned one person (out of 700) and that was you [Gina Anne], for reasons you’re making obvious right here. I am not responsible for what previous admin. did or did not do.
3RD:
Yet the Peabody HS trolls that cursed like sailors & said he was a “hero & the man” for mutilating cat’s, well their disgusting comments remain on FB till this day & they weren’t banned, hmm wonder why?
PETA: You are a liar, and you know it. (definition of sociopath?) Having addressed this too, above, you know full well that the “Peabody Highschoolers” are NOT members of the group I co-admin., and you know also that the group they have posted on has no admin.
(Can a sociopath be psychotic?)
Don’t you have to start packing, or something?
Evilgene never responds to posts that call her out, that catch her in lies… just moves on to the next “poor me, they hate me and I can’t imagine why” whine-fest, acting all ‘the victim’ until her lying post is forgotten, only to repeat the same lies later.
Max, et al: When I came in here thinking you were all automatically assuming guilt simply because someone had been accused, ready for a fight based on prior experiences w/folks like Evilgene, my posts failing to include supporting details (I defensively assumed my points were “obvious”) — You guys rightly called me on it.
I had two choices; stick to my misconception and continue to fire back, or listen and judge your words on their own merit. I listened. My posts changed accordingly, responding to rational beings instead of flailing at “haters” — Personally, I don’t think I was EVER as bad as EG but still I toned down my responses, I relaxed and started debating, I listened instead of accusing.
That’s the difference w/evilgene – she lies and moves on, accuses everyone of everything without supporting details, and now she’s worked herself up to believe that Mazzi and I have some sort of mystical power to make others do our bidding (I’ve tried this at home – it doesn’t work! lol). Anyhow, just felt the need to get this off my chest, although it’s not Weinman case-related, it definitely IS Weinman thread-related! Just felt the need to get this off my chest…
Hopefully over the next 2 weeks (please God, don’t tease me!), we’ll be able to return to sound arguments and rational debate; until this “U-turn” the discussions were becoming really interesting.
Evilgene to Doc: She accuses HIM of “…ranting & babbling insulting others & not even staying on topic…” and adds, “…Because your another asshole like Mazzi, DP NC & the rest.
Good God! Grow up! It’s unhealthy to believe that it’s everyone else that’s screwed up and you alone are righteous and perfect. Your list of “assholes” keeps growing, maybe it’s time to take that mirror Jason talks, about and take a good long stare into it.
Hmmmm. When everyone in the world is an asshole but you, perhaps you are missing something important. Maybe it’s you who is the asshole.
Let me tell you something you angry, nasty, vile woman. Nothing you say means shit to me. Period. You are hateful and spiteful, and in case you haven’t noticed, everyone really dislikes you. Although some tolerate you (only because you haven’t gotten around to spitting on them yet), no one will stick their neck out for you. You haven’t touched anything in me, except to evoke disgust for you. Your opinion means nothing to me. The people who DO matter on this board know who I am and I guarantee that if they don’t like me, they at least respect me. Which is something you will almost never get to see for yourself from anyone here.
I have no idea how you got so warped and twisted in your walnut-sized brain, but you can’t even form a coherent thought. All you can do is shriek over and over that Tyler is a murderer because you think he is.
I can’t imagine what it must be like to be such a small person. So useless in this world that all you can do is spew hatred and vitriol to some shlub who very possibly was in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Everyone who knows Tyler seems to be defending him.Believe it or not, that means a whole hell of a lot more than your harpy wail that he is guilty. Barring any solid evidence and barring a confession, I would put a lot more credence in his supporters than in some crazy cat-lady who couldn’t care less about facts.
**Which is something you will almost CERTAINLY never get to see for yourself from anyone here.**
Mazzi, not everyone is an asshole but me. Just you DP, NC Mr. “I wanna kick a cat” Smith & maybe 1 or 2 others.
Did you read April’s comments, she lived 5 minutes away from where Tyler killed the cats & is certain of his guilt.
Do you actually believe you represent ‘everyone’ in the world? You don’t even represent a fraction of a percent online. I hate to break it to you lady but out in the real world you are a very small fucking ill informed & dead wrong minority.
I guess you were lying about leaving AGAIN? Is there any wonder that no one takes you seriously? Once a liar, always a liar.
Also it’s hard to respect the opinions of those unable to face facts or truth. Mazzi, DP others have repeatedly claimed “there’s no evidence” when there is. It’s there in black & white on a 10 page affidavit.
You might not like it, or think it’s enough evidence but yes, it does exist & it’s a fact. I know DP is in complete denial, to say it doesn’t exist is a flat out bald faced lie. It’s difficult to respect or have a civil conversation with people who deny this basic truth about the Tyler Weinman case.
Gee Mazzi, I’m not leaving until the morning. Sorry but I’m not going to shut down my computer & get off here just cause you & the other numbskull Mr. Smith doesn’t like me. You’ll have to wait until tomorrow or go away yourself.
What a shame. We’ll no worries, I will continue mocking your stupidity while you are gone. It will be my pleasure.
Damn it!
I’ll be putting my head in the oven till then, ta ta
Um didn’t I just say those things to you with out the addition of all the other members of this blog?
I may or may not be as witty and clever as I believe I am (…and I do) but I guarantee they aren’t even close to being as dull and stupid as the things you have said.
now make like a tree and leave and don’t let the blog door hit you in the ass.
Make like a tree & leave? Where did you get that original insult, out your 5 year old kid’s joke book? You sure told me….
How’s the cat kicking going, released all that anger from coming here, yet you’re back…again…ready to kick more cat’s asses after you leave..then come back again…
I thought I made it impossible for you to be here? Are you a glutton for punishment…Tyler wanna be stain on humanity.
Ahh right, I said I couldn’t participate in this thread because you made it suck.
You really did, I’m sorry.
I don’t feel punished enough, your right. your getting better, you made me laugh..so yeah I must have a little crush on you or something.
BTW I leave and return not only because your so hot but also because though you may not be aware of this but there are other stories on this Blog besides Tyler’s. There is even more stuff beyond the blog too, so since I’m surfing the web that pesky coming and going thing will tend to happen.
psst – *I do ‘other things’ too*
does it bother you? I’m not touching you…
oh my gawd… reading this- i just lost 10 IQ points… LOL seriously get over yourself and stop arguing on the internet… because we all know how much opinions matter on the internet… this is not a blog about you or you or you… so plz… unless you are murdering cats in my neighborhood, refrain yourself from e-thugging and stick to the damn topic :)
no offense to anyone… but im sick of reading all the whining and internet arguing :(
April, I don’t want to drag you into this mess & sorry if I came on too strong with you, iIf I did i didn’t mean it.
I do have a question since you lived close to the killings. Why do you think Tyler is guilty generally & what was the buzz or opinions of most of your neighbors if you spoke with them about it? Thanks I’ll be nice & respect whatever you have to say.
I do believe he is guilty because of the evidence and because of his statements. Ever since he was “busted” the killings have since stopped. My neighbors believe he did it as well, and I have discussed with few we all agree they have the right person. We think that something needs to be done, because we all agree that if he hadn’t been caught he probably would have moved on to harm people. That’s just a speculation, but most if not all serial killers start with animals. I personally locked my doors and installed a new lock, our kitten is an inside kitten but we still made sure she never ever got out. I do believe that this kid has mental issues and needs to be given the right kind of treatment, if there is a such thing.
i don’t want to be dragged into anything, I personally believe internet arguing is lame- because there is no real way to win lol. I personally believe this kid should sit in juve for a couple of years.
April thanks, what you said makes sense, lol! It’s just good to hear it from someone with a familiarity of the locations & better sense of what went on during the time Tyler was the cat serial killer.
Evidence is an important factor & it baffles me when some deny any evidence against Tyler exists. I live 100 miles from you but know better than that, detectives have enough circumstantial evidence & probable cause, that’s why he was arrested.
But you sort of brought me down to earth, wtf am I doing arguing with people who deny the truth? It’s like trying to convince someone the earth’s round when they insist it’s flat, there’s no point in it. As long as I know the truth & detectives, LE have all their ducks in a row nothing anyone says here will matter, he should be convicted!
April, meant to say I live 1000 miles from you. I know I have a pet flap door, but since the Tyler case & one of my cats “named Tyler” weird, went missing I covered the flap. But they’ve been going stir crazy so I bought a Kittywalk, an outdoor enclosure thing they can go in to get fresh air & still be protected. Just got it, have to put it together. I feel sorry for them but won’t taking any more chances.
After admitting she does not know the law, and does not take the time to learn it, she starts channeling Jason, “… detectives have enough circumstantial evidence & probable cause, that’s why he was arrested.” Amazing.
Paraphrasing your quote: But you sort of brought me down to earth Evilgene, what the hell am I doing arguing with someone who denies the truth? It’s like trying to convince someone the earth’s round when she insist it’s flat.
APRIL,
There has been far too much arguing on this board but might I (respectfully) suggest that you read through all of the posts here, in order to find the ‘epicenter.’ (start w/’anonymous,’ her original name here).
Most of the posters on this site are rational, respectful of differing opinions (i.e. Jason & I disagree, but we’ve had great dialogue because we both accept that all the facts are yet to be discovered, and we enjoy intelligent discussion), most are willing to cede the occasional point, and are well aware that there could be surprises coming on either side of this case. Your new buddy, on the other hand, tolerates no one unless they encourage and support her rantings. Her foul-mouthed attacks on so many here have set everyone’s nerves on end and unfortunately, what you’re witnessing now is the ‘blowback.’
Is Tyler being tried as an adult? I’m not that familiar with Florida laws except for the Sunshine Law. Your state releases most evidence to the public, most states withhold evidence until trial. FL makes criminal records public & releases them to media more than any other state, but I think that’s a good thing, lol.
At 18 I thought Tyler was too old to be considered a juvenile. I consider him to be a man, an unemployed drug abusing shiftless adult expelled from 2 high schools.
He has issues, but if he’s a true sociopath like many suspect him of being, they are unable to be rehabilitated, in their minds they see nothing wrong with cruelty & have absolutely no remorse or sympathy for their victims. IMO Tyler is a sadistic sociopath, not a good combination to try & turn around. I don’t know if it’s impossible but a few years in prison seems to be the punishment he deserves.
“…a true sociopath …[is] unable to be rehabilitated, in their minds they see nothing wrong with cruelty & have absolutely no remorse or sympathy for their victims”
A self-diagnosis?
A true sociopath, might be treatable…. He could be a sociopath, and while I don’t believe it, could also not be the cat killer.
Jason, there has been nothing in Tyler’s background to indicate a sociopathic personality PRIOR to the detectives independent speculation based on his belief of Tyler’s involvement. Logic 101: Only a sociopath could do these things; I believe Tyler did these things; ergo, Tyler must be a sociopath. (the problem with this is if his premise is incorrect, i.e. if Tyler did NOT do these things.)
With all the scrutiny his life has been subjected to, no one has indicated any such personality disorder. A clown, not too serious about schoolwork, etc… but nothing sociopathic.
1. I was pointing out a logical fallacy. Just because Tyler might not be the cat killer, doesn’t mean he’s not a sociopath. Just because he may be proved not to be a sociopath, does not exclude him from guilt in this situation.
2. On the checklist for anti-social behavior disorder (new name for sociopaths) we have drug use, trouble at school or work, trouble with authority, disregard for the suffering of others and low self-esteem. Find me more than 1 in 100 of the average 18 year olds who didn’t have some of these traits, and I’d be surprised–suggesting either these are too broad or that most 18 year-olds are borderline sociopaths. Sociopaths can be well loved, sweet, attractive, or any of another of attributes. To turn an argument around, usually in the case of Sociopaths, friends and loved one’s refer to him with association to the crime of “He was such a nice boy, he couldn’t possibly have done something like that.”
3. A specialist was used for the State’s profile on Tyler. I’d bet money anyone they asked from a gerbil to a nobel prize winning psych would have come up with a profile that would fit Tyler in this instance, but that’s the nature of the case. To pass it off that only the Detective has this theory, misses that there will be experts who will testify that Tyler meets the requirements.
4. I realize you’re fencing, I’m just keeping your arm straight on this one.
3.
Jason, “…A specialist was used for the State’s profile on Tyler.”
A psychologist w/MDPD was sought out by Det. Columbro for advice as to what type of person (assuming it was a person) could commit such crimes, the psychologist did not examine Tyler (as far as we know this conversation took place in the infant stage of the detective’s theory). The psychologist stated the obvious generality:
(if a person was responsible) he would have to be a sociopath, most likely in his teens, blah,blah, blah. It was the det. who decided, in his capacity as a LEO, to play the role of psychologist and it was he who then concluded that “since this then that,” pegging Tyler as a sociopath.
On the other hand, the judge ordered a psychiatric evaluation prior to releasing TW; Tyler was now – for the first time – examined by a professional, a psychiatrist (greater medical credibility than a LEO), and it was this the doctor’s professional opinion that Tyler posed no danger to himself or to the community. Hmm… so, which is it? Is Det. Columbro more qualified, or is the doctor?
“…there will be experts who will testify that Tyler meets the requirements.”
And there will surely be experts to challenge anything the state purports, not to mention numerous character witnesses.
Jason, posted a response to you (re: sociopath, @10:33) but it says its awaiting moderation. There are no links in it, any idea why it might need moderating?
DP is correct here, Jason, in many ways. (Not that you are entirely wrong, either).
LE was using a general “profile” technique to target a killer (if one exists). Based on statistics, the LE shrink says “well, it would probably be a guy, he would probably be white, he would probably be under 30, he would probably not have a good job, AND because of the way the animals were killed, he would probably have sociopathic tenancies.
So, logically – IF someone killed the cats, the statistics would probably be right. That is all good. In fact, we really don’t need criminal profile “experts” to tell us all that, do we? We already know it.
The problem is that to many people (including LE, unfortunately) the profiling techniques become almost a form of mental “evidence”. They not only won’t look at a black woman in her 40′s as a potential suspect, but they will go out of their way to “tag” someone who fits the physical statistics. (Not the sociopath part, since that is an unknown initially).
How many white guys, under age 30, with less than good jobs do YOU know? How many do you suppose there are? Are all, or even MOST of them sociopaths? Do (or would) most – or even ANY of your friends who fit that physical profile – kill cats? Of course not.
So, here is a really important question. If Tyler is given a FULL mental evaluation, and he is not found to be a sociopath, will LE drop their charges? You know the answer to that as well as I do. No. But they USED that profile to grab him. If he doesn’t fit the profile then shouldn’t he be “ungrabbed”? .
It sounds like, based on an initial examination, that Tyler does NOT fit the sociopathic part of the equation. The other part is accurate, but it is not evidence of guilt.
You said that it is a “logical fallacy” that even if Tyler killed the cats, he does not have to be a sociopath. But I would say differently. This is not so much a logic question (which is based on hypotheticals) but a real live, living breathing person. The chances of someone being a “thrill killer” and NOT having the traits consistent with a sociopath are improbable. As we know, not all sociopaths kill cats, but anyone who kills cats must, almost certainly be a sociopath. So, if Tyler is NOT a sociopath, what chance is there that he is a cat murderer?
Thus, all of that “sociopathic” garbage, being released to the media and the public, becomes only a tool to taint and sway the public opinion. And THAT, I believe is what our friend DP has been trying to say all along.
My brilliant husband just asked a damned good question. One that I have never seen addressed in this case, but may be highly relevant.
Are either the local Sheriff or the DA up for re-election?
If you recall, Nifong – the DA in the Duke University Lacrosse case was indeed up for re-election. As was the DA in the Kevin Fox/Riley Fox rape and murder case which was later found to be a “railroad”. (Google it – it’s fascinating in a sickening way). Not to mention so many of the players in the Jon Benet Ramsey case, and many other high profile cases.
As much as we may be disgusted by the thought, it DOES happen. I would like to think that it is fueled by an honest motivation gone awry, rather than tawdry greed, but regardless, it is an injustice to the targeted suspect.
“Thus, all of that “sociopathic” garbage, being released to the media and the public, becomes only a tool to taint and sway the public opinion.”
Yes, indeed, Mazzi! Same for the suspicious ‘sounding’ items taken from the residences; the scratches which were explained, & grew in reports from neck/back to neck,arms, chest, back, etc.; the pot charge 5/15: one gram later becomes a “bag” which ‘sounds’ like much more; and everything else we’ve heard so far. Nothing has been substantiated, thus far we just have an abundance of conjecture. (As to re-election issue, “brilliant husband,” such an important point! This plays a role far more often than we’d like to believe. I’ve seen in become a major distraction in lesser cases… are they up for election in M-D? Not sure, but shouldn’t be too hard to find out… and what about the County Commissioner, making the kind of initial statements SHE did???)
(visit my blog when you have time – search “Tyler”)
See my posts below re: Lockwood and animal mutilation cases.
Dr. Lockwood is a preeminent force in the fight against animal cruelty, he’s seen it all, he writes, lectures, trains, gives testimony, etc. He also explains that it is very important to rule out any other cause – very carefully! – before attributing these alleged ‘mutilation’ incidents to human acts of cruelty. His experience has shown that in MOST cases like these, animal predation is the cause. Read somewhere that he said if a human is involved, it is one or two cats – NEVER has he seen a case of 10-20-30…. He trains police departments to look for sign of human presence on scene, how to overlook the “appearance” of the remains and stay objective, etc.
(discovered that in Lauderhill – where necropsies were performed – ‘a’ dog was captured, out of a group of 4, which they believed had been roaming together… the rest remained ‘on the loose.’ I’d be interested in knowing when this occurred AND what the likelihood is of the two dogs captured 6/13/09 in MD being dog 2 & 3, from that 4-pack??)
Hmmmm.. I haven’t got much time today, but I did a quick search of the DA – Katherine Rundle, and she looks pretty clean.
BUT! The assistant DA handling this case (Michael Lee Von Zamft) lost an ethics violation case against him, by the Florida Bar Association, in The Supreme Court of Florida in 2002. It seems that Von Zamft used his personal friendship status with a judge to attempt to sway a legal decision. Disciplinary measures were imposed. http://tinyurl.com/mq5r6n
Scanning through the case, it sounds as if Von Zamft intervened in another DA’s case, by asking the judge, his personal friend, to change an unfavorable decision in the DA’s case. On top of everything, the judge warned him to stop several times, and he still didn’t.
That’s pretty hinky. I mean, that’s just common-sense integrity. It’s a bit troublesome that the main DA in this case is not averse to “bending” the law. It also calls into question his ability to impose self-control. (Not to mention – HOW did he manage to get a promotion to such a powerful position, with such a breech? That’s just not right.)
To be fair, the disciplinary action suggested, was relatively minor due to his “upstanding character”, but that’s kind of a catch-22 isn’t it? Nifong (Duke University) was considered a fine, upstanding prosecutor before he destroyed the lives of a bunch of boys (and his own). If a prosecutor can hide behind the fact that they “never got caught before” to protect them from future suspicions, and use that same method to play down when they do get caught, how dirty do they have to be to actually be removed?
I also happened to stumble over a pretty good summary of why the Weinman case seems to be a possible “rush-to-judgment”. We all know that a rush-to-judgment is a very bad thing in almost ALL cases. If the suspect is guilty, he may walk from lack of evidence, and if he is innocent, his life may be ruined. http://tinyurl.com/l4rgnz
Where did DP granny go? She’s like a pig in shit, just gloating that you tools are fighting her battles. Guess she put her false teeth in a cup, drank some warm milk & called it a night. I don’t expect DP to be around too much longer, I can tell she’s losing her mental capabilities pretty fast fighting Tyler’s war here & everywhere else on the internet. Demented old hag just can’t keep up like she used too.
You’re losing your edge PETA, your diatribes are actually becoming sort of funny, in a strange, ridiculous sort of way. lol
DP you said what I was thinking. her last couple of posts were pretty damn funny. it’s about time. I was getting sleepy.
DP- I am a Peta member & so what, you’ve been trying to drag me into an argument about it but you know what, I’m not having any of it, that’s it..the end I won’t get into people calling me names for it & me defending myself. That’s what you want, to divert away from Tyler’s crimes & attack me for being a Peta person. I don’t agree with everything they say or do but I’ll never apologize for it. I am also a member of HSUS & ASPCA & donate time & money to my local shelter, got a problem with that too?
Listen crazy woman..when I said I didn’t know a lot about FL law, I was specifically talking about whether he could be tried as a juvenile or not. As usual you butted in and answered a question incorrectly of course..that I was directly asking April to answer.
That’s why you are despised at most other web sites on the Internet. Shove it lady, I asked April since she’s 100 times more knowledgeable about Tyler Weinman’s case than you, lives 5 minutes from where the killings took place & believes he’s guilty as does most of her neighbors who also lived near the killings and were put through a terrible jarring experience.
He’s 18 correct? I believe he will be tried as an adult, seeing as after all he is legally an adult. I am not very knowledgeable when it comes to animal cruelty in miami-dade county, though I am sure it’s harsh seeing how pit-bulls are illegal here lol. Miami is not a nice place to be hated by the community, so in all honesty this boy better hope he gets locked up because I don’t think the people of our town will be happy with him being out on the streets again with probation or something similar.
“…this boy better hope he gets locked up…”
And *IF* he’s innocent? What a travesty.
My reference to your having little understanding/time re: issues of law, was NOT on your inquiry of Florida law, rather it went to your own statements to Jason (July 24, and 30)
lol I have no buddies, i just didn’t think this was an appropriate place for such an argument, and felt the need to remind that it is after just the internet :) I will not take sides seeing as I think it’s all wrong in the first place. I do believe everyone is entitled to an opinion, and that as adults whether we like it or not, should be able to hold a conversation civilly, and be able to listen to others thoughts. And yea I know first hand FL releases all documents, especially with the Casey Anthony case. I do agree that he may be a sociopath, and thus should be confined in a 9X9 cell for awhile to pay for his actions.
Thanks for the response April… all fair points, reasonably stated ;)
“can’t we all just…” ah fuck it
ding ding ding…. FIGHT
I knew I liked you :-)
besides fighting with evangeline is a win win situation. she loves it and encourages it and speaking for my self I love to give people what they want so now I’m happy.
haha lol, well for some reason I felt the urge to say my part… and from what i’ve read this has probably been going on for some time, so ill save my breath… get some popcorn… and read and watch lol… im actually reading all the stories.. though it’s taking some time lol.. im only on page 28 now..
Your brave.. I made it pretty far but there is just so much evil in these web pages, I’m doing alot of reading right now too. coming in to bicker is probably saving whats left of my sanity really.
It hurt looking for Shawn Ryan Grells page that I linked to for you last night and I thought “so glad he’s not on the front page any more” and I almost fainted when I seen him there today.
He’s still the worse one for me so far. I don’t know about you but I haven’t got any real sleep since I started reading here. yikes I better get some coffee and join you for snacks.
I would like to read them all. I don’t know why but I feel like I need to lol. Probably makes no since, but i feel like I have a better understanding of the way criminals work. not understanding them, but understanding more or less how to avoid them… by not trusting anyone basically, which in all honesty I don’t. I am terrified of what people are capable of. That case is truly sickening, but to me the worst one I’ve come across is still Christine Schurrer. I was balling by the end and the part that got me the most was when it was written how they were buried in the same casket holding hands.. i can’t believe that woman is only getting 25 years… ugh i hope someone assrapes her with both of their feet.
April that’s ironic that you mention that case.. I to was in utter shock and tears over that and started searching on the net for more on the case and stumbled on to this huge court file with tons of pictures and documents from the prosecution. it was a zip file on a forum. the day I signed up here I sent it along with a few other things I had found on story’s already posted here.
I have the link but you’d have to wait before it post to be approved for moderation.
I just checked a route for you to find it now and it’s still there, if you’d like to
________________________________________
- go to –
google, search for “findadeath”
go to findadeath forum
once there in the search field copy and paste this title:
Autopsy Pics from Arboga Murder Case on Piratebay Controversy
the thread that shows up is the controversy of this file (a bunch of the autopsy pictures are there) has the link to the zip file on post #41
_________________________________________
when I download it I forgot it’s all in swedish however there are so many diagrams and pictures that paint the story you don’t need words.
there is one picture that just made me fall apart. the autopsy pictures are awful but there was this picture that I didnt notice before but this last time I looked over the case file it sprung out at me and told me something I didnt realize before..I don’t have it open right now so I don’t remember the page but it’s a diagram of the house and where the body’s were and the blood spatter evidence..each persons blood is color coded by name..when you see let me know what you think..for me it made this case 10X worse than I already thought.
their head stone was beautiful and it was so sweet and heartbreaking to bury them together.
LMAO!!!!!!!!!
(sorry for the “texting” Doc – but April’s post almost caused me to fall off of my chair! haha)
no need to apologize to me for anything. besides I’m a huge fan of short posts.
April, that tickled me, you’re right. why can’t we all just get along? Cause we don’t, but my heads hurting now & I have to pack some clothes…. April you’re a good person I can tell. You, Jason, Claude, Max are about the only ones I can stomach here.
Good night & keep your kitty safe, I know you will. After all Tyler is monitored with an anklet 24/7 but it doesn’t mean he can never leave the house under certain circumstances.
If I was only a few minutes away from the crimes Tyler committed I’d still be worried. He’s a shifty, smirking, unemployed dope smoking sneaky little cat killing bastard. I have no doubt Tyler’s just itching to reoffend if given a moments freedom outside his home.
oh i will :)
and on the off chance that he is innocent then may God protect him because I am sure our community is already convinced he is guilty. If he is innocent and proven to be so, I will personally apologize. Either way he is already done over by our community :( I don’t think he deserves to go to hell, but I do think IF HE IS GUILTY he needs to pay for his actions.
that does suck he lives so close to you. it’s to bad child, elder and animal abuse doesn’t have a criminal searchable registry like they have for sex crimes. theres no doubt when he gets out if he’s found guilty that he will do it again and maybe move on to humans but after being caught he will hide his crimes better.
there is no justice for helpless victims, not really. this guy will out on probation just when people start to forget his face and he’ll be free to kill again.
I’m a asshole but so much a asshole that Id want you to have a head ache. I’m sorry and hope you feel better. have a good trip.
Mr. Smith- I feel compelled to defend myself on the posts you accused me of purposely repeating. I don’t know how the hell it happened but it was unintentional. I didn’t mean to repeat the same post 4 times but it did happen. Maybe I hit enter more than once, or it was a fluke or mistake. I was embarrassed when I saw them, not the messages but how many times they were repeated.
there is no edit button, so can be done? nothing to be embarrassed about.
April- I noticed you said maybe you should keep quiet about Tyler’s guilt until after the trial. What’s happening is you’re letting DP & Mazzi get to you, it’s exactly what they want, to squelch your opinion.
Just being honest because when you first came on here & stated firmly you believed in Tyler’s guilt & the killing stopped after he was arrested you know what that ugly obnoxious bitch Mazzi said about you.
She told me something like get off of here & take your ‘two toadies with you’ meaning you & Claude for daring to have the opinion that Tyler is guilty.
It’as up top you & you’re a lot nicer person than me I see that, but don’t let them take away your freedom of speech or your true opinion. Mazzi is a disgusting blowhard, probably an ugly slob who didn’t make it through law school with a nasty chip on her shoulder & DP well for reasons unknown to me she’s hell bent on Tyler going free whether he mass murdered 100 of your neighbors beloved cats or not & that’s the truth.
Why did Mazzi jump to the conclusion that you & Claude were ‘toadies’ which I assume means a troll when you’ve been very civil & untroll like in all your opinions? Think about it, they are 2 nasty pieces of work who may as well live in a communist country despite their claim of loving a civilized debate, that’s a load of shit.
They really don’t like you saying you believe he’s guilty & no matter what they claim the way you say it does not matter, they still insulted you & called you a troll & are now trying to either brainwash you into believing the cops & media are crooked & he’s probably innocent or they want to shut you the fuck up for your opinion. They don’t like the fact you are so close to the case, literally & know more than they do.
Besides the fact they hate me, what I’m saying is the truth no matter what you decide to do. Just when you came here you were a breath of fresh air & knew what you were talking about, some people here hate that. They’d rather convince you that Tyler is possibly innocent when you know in your heart & from all the evidence, his actions, that smirk, facts everything, it’s just not true.
It’s not the media & police who are lying, it’s Tyler Weinman & his assenine defenders who deep down know better.
Hahah you are SO full of shit! I meant Corymia and Claude. NOT April. But I am sure April is smart enough to figure that out, you pathetic little troll.
You are a troublemaker, but fortunately you are a failure at that. April has been around here longer than you, so why would I be talking about HER as one of your followers? That would be like me calling Max or even NC one of your henchmen, lol.
I think April can see clearly that I respect her position, as I respect all of the NORMAL people who are leaning towards Tyler’s guilt. I only don’t respect the opinion of blind and ignorant people who refuse to consider there is any other possibility. Like you, rofl.
Nice try, you wretched worm. Now go on your vacation, before we catch you in yet another lie. Two weeks – I am timing it.
April- Mazzi’s comment is here I didn’t make it up, lol. So many from that horrid woman I can’t find it now, & I’m tired & getting ready to leave. But if you look it’s around where Claude posted some messages & he didn’t post that many so her venom against you & Claude can still be found here.
But it was addressed to me & I think toward the end she said something vulgar & sexual about throwing up in her disgusting mouth, unless it was a different vile message. Then in the last sentence something about getting rid of me & taking the 2 toadies…meaning you & Claude with me.
Maybe you don’t care & I shouldn’t either. But it kind of pissed me off because I like both you & Claude who I’ve known & traded cat & dog photos & nice conversations on facebook for a few months now along with others I consider a group of friends. A ‘toadie’ or ‘troll’ is the furthest thing that Claude is, neither are you.
You might tell me to mind my own business & you’re an adult, if you do I understand. Just thought I’d make you aware of the kind of subhumans you are dealing with here. Not all but it only takes 1 or 2.
You didn’t make it up – you just twisted it to suit your own warped thoughts, as you have done repeatedly here, lol.
The three of you, You, Claude and Corymia initially all came in here stalking and baiting DP. They got bored and wandered off, but you stayed, spitting your nasty slime. While I was away, I saw that you called in the troops and viola! Corymia and Claude reappear. Their sole purpose here seems to be the same as yours, to try to trash and discredit a (now) respected poster, DP. I wasn’t sure that they were actually your “toadies” or if it was just a bad coincidence, but you sure as hell just confirmed it ( Evangeline: “Claude, who I’ve known & traded cat & dog photos & nice conversations on facebook for a few months now “).
You really are a piece of work. Unfortunately, you are also a loser. Your little projections don’t phase me. Your pathetic attempts to “peg” me are lame. People around here who have known me for a long time will remember my ethical concerns with law school, and my rational decision to leave it. But, even if I HAD flunked out (which anyone with an ounce of sense would realize was unlikely) I would still be a hell of a lot smarter and more logical than you. So go ahead and think what you want – because in the end, as with all of your bullshit, it only makes YOU look bad. If you are worse than a fat, slobby, dropout – why that makes you pretty low down there, doesn’t it? ROFL.
**UGLY, slobby dropout.**
Mazzi, most people couldn’t even get admitted to law school, therefore anyone questioning your scholastic achievements and/or abilities can’t be taken too seriously (not that Evilgene was in danger of that happening lol). Your having left law school for “ethical concerns” further raises your credibility, as far as I’m concerned ;)
Hmmm.. just noticed something else..
you think that “throwing up in your mouth” is sexual? You are sicker than I first thought. Your nasty fantasies about Tyler masturbating were pretty awful, but thinking vomit is somehow sexual is really perverted.
You need some serious help.
She’s has a knack for spinning what everyone here says to suite her purpose, but she does it so poorly it fascinates me for some reason.
Doc, have you ever witnessed a really freak accident? The type where you ask yourself, ‘how did that even happen!?’, and …you want to ….look away but…you just…can’t…?
Haha!! yeah, guess evangeline turn me into the classic rubbernecker!
well she is a bad accident I just can’t turn away from.
Wow evangeline, didn’t you just tell April last night you didn’t want to drag her into this? Well here you are ‘dragging’ her into this.
Look how you talk to people. Do you realize in the middle of your post to her you flat out told her “I don’t like you saying….” Why would you critique her opinion and fuck with her when she was one person her who showed you some genuine kindness?
Seriously you think people dislike you for no reason but look how you treat people who are kind to you?
She seems like a very cool person so why don’t you keep your barbs out of her and let her be. I’m sure she is capable of forming her own opinions about people on this forum. telling her other wise is just insulting.
What she doesn’t like is the fact that someone (ApriL) who she decided was on “her side”, and who she tried (very transparently) to suck up to, is actually open-minded.
Evangeline is not about open-mindedness. If you don’t agree with her, she will turn on you. I was going to warn ApriL, but she is quite capable of taking care of herself, lol.
The next post we see from the Wicked Worm of the West should be (if prior history is indicative of future) calling ApriL a cat-murderer-Tyler-loving-brainless idiot, or something to that effect. Hopefully this post wont com for at least 2 weeks, unless WWW is lying about this loverly vacation.
I witnessed evangeline mewling sycophant instantly.
She latched on to Aprils neck like a rabid dog.
I better correct my typo or else I’ll be crucified by evangeline, but I’m sure she’ll point out how stupid I am for it. well it’s her fault for making me nuts anyway.
I witnessed evangeline ‘become a’ mewling sycophant instantly.
She latched on to Aprils neck like a rabid dog.
Dr. Smith i am downloading the file now, when im done i will post back
my opinion hasn’t changed, but I’d rather wait and see what happens too. I do believe they have the right person in custody, but I guess it isn’t fair to say for 100% sure he did it until all the evidence is brought up and he’s convicted (which i have no doubt in my mind will happen). And you know even if he is convicted I am sure people will still believe he is innocent, just as people believe Casey Anthony is innocent :/ so in reality, it doesn’t really matter what you say, you can’t convince someone who’s already made up their mind :)
just got finished looking at them. it did make it 100x’s worse wow, just wow. I can’t believe anyone could do that to such beautiful babies. the autopsy pictures really got to me :( I can’t imagine what life is like for the surviving mother. I don’t think I could handle that. Poor children, they didn’t deserve that.
Just came across this and felt it was important enough to print in its entirety. I was especially interested in neighboring Lauderhill’s response as “mutilated” cats were being discovered in their area. Lauderhill had 17 cases and after necropsies were performed, all were attributed to dogs. (Google maps: Miami to Ft. Lauderdale, “walking” = 26.6 miles) Please read Police Capt. Rick Rocco’s initial statements:
South Florida sees string of cat killings
June 04, 2009 McClatchy Newspapers
FORT LAUDERDALE, Fla. – What or who has been killing dozens of cats in South Florida over the past three weeks and leaving carcasses for their owners to find?
Authorities in Miami-Dade County and Lauderhill said it’s too early to tell. However, experts said such killings generally are done by foxes or raccoons. In extreme cases, people sometimes engage in animal cruelty that could escalate into attacks on humans.
“It’s rare that we see these kinds of injuries caused by people, so it’s important to rule out the other possibilities,” said Randall Lockwood, an animal behavior expert with the American Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, in Washington, D.C.
Since March 14, dozens of mutilated cats have been found in the areas of Cutler Bay and Palmetto Bay in Miami-Dade County. Similar attacks in Broward County were reported Saturday and Wednesday in Lauderhill.
In Miami-Dade County, most of the animals were killed at night and their carcasses were found during daytime hours. They were gutted and skinned, or their bellies were sliced open.
In Lauderhill on Wednesday, Alyssa Capote, 19, said she was horrified to find one of her three cats, Nila, drained of blood, and with her legs lopped off.
“I almost threw up,” said Capote, who has a 3-year-old daughter. “Are they going to go after children next?”
Lauderhill Police Capt. Rick Rocco said Nila was sliced open with a “clean cut,” as though a sharp weapon was used.
He said he didn’t know whether a necropsy was scheduled to determine whether the cat died from knife wounds or an animal’s teeth or claws.
Miami-Dade County police declined to say whether necropsies were conducted on cats killed in the county.
Lockwood, of the ASPCA, said mutilated animals were reported during the past five years in other states, including California, Texas and Colorado. Authorities found coyotes, foxes or raccoons were the attackers in those cases.
The attacks have prompted some Lauderhill residents to pledge they will keep children and pets indoors for fear they could be hurt, especially now that students are starting their summer vacation.
Police said that if a person killed the cats, they have gotten no indication that humans could be the next targets.
“Is this possible? Of course,” said Rebeca Perez, a detective with the Miami-Dade Police Department. “We have no way of knowing or predicting that.”
Jack Levin, a criminology professor at Northeastern University in Boston, said the South Florida attacks are worrisome, considering there have been convicted killers who started out torturing animals.
One of the most notorious was Jeffrey Dahmer, who as a teenager abused animals. As an adult, he killed 17 boys and men in the 1980s and 1990s.
Albert Desalvo trapped dogs and cats and shot them with arrows before he became known as the Boston Strangler in the murders of 13 women.
Levin said a group of teenagers could be targeting cats because it makes them feel powerful and gives them bragging rights.
“They are deciding who lives and dies, and how much the animal suffers. It gives them a sense of control and dominance,” he said.
If the slayers are people, they likely aren’t targeting a specific owner’s cat. Rather, he said, they could be conducting a “rebellious act against the community.”
Police in Lauderhill and Miami-Dade County began sharing notes Thursday to determine whether the cat killings are linked, said Lauderhill police Capt. Rick Rocco.
Levin said a separate group of teens in Broward is mimicking the killings in Miami-Dade because of the attention they got.
Key parts:
Lauderhill Police Capt. Rick Rocco said Nila was sliced open with a “clean cut,” as though a sharp weapon was used. {looked to be done by a person]
He said he didn’t know whether a necropsy was scheduled to determine whether the cat died from knife wounds or an animal’s teeth or claws.
Miami-Dade County police declined to say whether necropsies were conducted on cats killed in the county. [they continue to "decline to say"]
Lockwood, of the ASPCA, said mutilated animals were reported during the past five years in other states, including California, Texas and Colorado. Authorities found coyotes, foxes or raccoons were the attackers in those cases. [Dr. Randall Lockwood, an expert in animal cruelty cases, wrote the forensic bible on the topic, acknowledges that most often these "finds" are attributable to animal predation, and emphasizes the importance of ruling out all other causes before looking to human involvement]
Last thought on this article:
Notice that almost the entire last half of the article is devoted to the theories of Jack Levin, a criminology professor at Northeastern University in Boston, who speculates on what these killings MIGHT mean IF a human committed these acts.
The wording here is very instructive as relates to the handling of cases of alleged cat “mutilation:
[AR-News: (US) Wildlife Predation Linked to Cat Killings, Backlash Feared Against Foxes Sun Aug 10 13:13:47 EDT 2003 ~Susan Hagood]
“How do Salt Lake City and Denver cat owners spell “relief?” “F-O-X.” Maybe even “D-O-G.” Law enforcement, animal control and wildlife experts have determined that the string of cat killings in both cities, dating back to May 2002 in Salt Lake City, is the handiwork of dogs and wildlife such as foxes and coyotes. ***Authorities initially feared that the 11 cat deaths in Salt Lake City and the 45 in Denver were human-related, perhaps even the work of a lone psychopath.*** But thanks to the efforts of animal forensics experts such as The HSUS’s Randall Lockwood, law enforcement agencies began looking at wildlife predation as the cause.”
“Lockwood even met with the 30-member task force in Colorado that investigated the cat killings; he presented the panel with an overview of ***evidence typically collected from human-related cat killings as well as a primer on how predator kills can appear to be human-caused.*** “My main role,” says Lockwood, “was to get the police to rethink the evidence and concentrate on those cases where there was unmistakable evidence of human involvement—evidence such as remains left in areas inaccessible to animals, human artifacts found in or near victims, and the like. These are the things we have seen in other known human-caused cat killings. ***Police quickly noted that none of the cases in either Colorado or Utah showed such unmistakable evidence.***” [neither do any of the cases Tyler Weinman is charged with]
Further thought (sorry, but the juices are flowing today lol) — What if we try looking at this ‘backwards?’
Look at the KNOWN cases of animal cruelty, the whackos found guilty in those cases:
- Did they deny the act(s), or boast about it?
- Do they appear to lack a healthy level of compassion and empathy in *other* areas of their lives?
- Were they involved in athletic activities, and have other community based involvement?
- Were they observed being kind to animals?
- Did they have unusually large numbers of people supporting them, denying their capacity to have committed such acts?
Now ask these questions about the accused in this case.
Note, this is a new line, so is a new option for debate.
Jeffrey Dahmer had cats, dogs and fish as pets as a child. He went around his neighborhood, first dissecting dead animals, then moved onto living animals. He became a full blown alcoholic in High School to help deal with social inadequacies.
The parallels to Tyler aren’t forced. Tyler loved pets when he was younger, has an interest in dissection, and has gotten into a lot of trouble with drug abuse.
It doesn’t make him a sociopath or a cat killer, it only suggests he could be the criminal IF these are proven to be done by a human being.
To the second question, we have to go no farther than this website and the case of Timothy Arie Kooyman
http://pysih.com/2009/05/08/timothy-arie-kooyman/
He initially claimed that the cats had self-inflicted wounds, He eventually confessed to his actions on his second arrest for different crimes. This was after a conviction. Tyler couldn’t reasonably be expected to confess to his crimes until after his first conviction.
Tyler’s alleged actions are more demonstrative.
Jason, “Tyler’s alleged actions are more demonstrative.”
Maybe it’s because I’m tired… could you please explain what you mean by this? Thanks.
Also, to the other post re: Dahmer’s “pets”… this might be so however AFTER he was caught wasn’t it his dad who said that he used to impale animals heads on sticks in the backyard? Hardly qualifies as “kind to animals.” In Tyler’s case, no one – even with the excessive media attention – has remotely hinted at any sort of meanness/weirdness/cruelty.
Kooyman abused and then killed the cats in convenient privacy.
IF Tyler is guilty of these crimes, he did them knowing he might be caught, taunted police, neighbors and concerned citizens interested in discovering who was killing the cats, and went to the trouble of killing and cleaning the bodies elsewhere and returning them to the homes. In at least one case, insuring that the body would be found on the owner’s doorstep missing the lower jaw, genitals and skinned on the hind legs and belly.
IF Tyler is found to be guilty of the crimes his intended victims extended beyond the death of the animals, and in a truly sadistic way, was directed at the suffering of their owners.
Kooyman killed strays, rescues and cats he could easily capture, but his concern wasn’t inflicting suffering on the humans who’d be hurt by their loss. He was insane, and seemed to think that he was killing the devil’s servants. Tyler’s goal, if he’s convicted, was to terrorize his neighbors.
“…[Tyler] went to the trouble of killing and cleaning the bodies elsewhere and returning them to the homes. In at least one case, insuring that the body would be found on the owner’s doorstep missing the lower jaw, genitals and skinned on the hind legs and belly.”
All this while LE was working overtime, on night patrol, while watching Tyler (visually and GPS), while the community was in all ways on “high alert” having been convinced that a “cat serial killer” was on the loose…? I don’t think so.
Kooyman set cats on fire, he tortured cats for ‘pleasure,’ and he most likely had several RED FLAG indicators prior to his being caught with cats in his possession. How or why you would possibly compare Tyler to this guy, not only compare but actually make Tyler sound worse, is beyond me Jason. You seem very level-headed but there’s something here I am unable to put my finger on…
“…missing the lower jaw, genitals and skinned on the hind legs and belly.”
Lacking any sign of human presence on scene, just the cat’s remains: this describes “to a T” animal predation. To assume that Tyler had anything to do with these 19 deaths is to defy the experience of someone on the forefront of the battle against animal cruelty, namely Dr. Lockwood (see my Aug 1 posts), who clearly is not biased when he says that in animal predation cases there is found no sign of human presence on scene or nearby, that the appearance of the animal having been “mutilated,” while disturbing, is NOT attributable to human involvement; that persons who do kill cats do NOT do so in these kind of numbers, and they always leave some telltale sign of their involvement…
It is a *theory of LE* that the cats “had to have been killed elsewhere and then returned to the owner’s property because they were found w/o blood”… A simpler explanation is that a cat, having 1/2 pint of blood, will ‘bleed out’ in a relatively short time if the wounds are severe enough (hit by a car, drags itself back onto its own property [which it would know better than some stranger] and while in this vulnerable state is preyed upon by a dog, or other animal…) And, if you do not think that the injuries/damages seen in these cases could possibly be done by animals, then I would respectfully ask that you refer to what Dr. Lockwood has written on this (specifically “cat mutilations” – he is as much an expert on this as he is on animal cruelty cases). The descriptions in the cases in South Florida are IDENTICAL to those in which pathology testing has later irrefutably proved: animal predation. No one would have believed it, but then the testing proved it.
LE’s theory is FAR TOO COMPLICATED.
Not only is LE’s theory too complicated but, there are a multitude of other cases to which we can look to draw conclusions.
If there had only ever been one case of “cat mutilation” which was later attributed to “animal predation,” then I would not be pushing this point so forcefully… there are in fact so many it becomes impossible to ignore. (67 in CA, 45 in CO, 10 in UT, 17 in Lauderhill, FL, AT LEAST 14, and probably 33, in Miami Dade… cases in TX, KS, and many, many more; currently there are many ‘ongoing’ around the country, see: FB Justice for Tyler: Current “cat mutilation” Cases, for several that I have posted)
Except that they positively identified 19 of the 33 cases as not animal attacks in some undisclosed way and you assume they couldn’t possibly know their jobs. We’ve been over this, if you want to question my “level-headedness” you walk into this trap door where I say, “You can question law enforcement’s motives, but somehow they identified 19 of the cases as being done by humans and 14 of the cases as being animal or car related. There’s a much, much higher probability, that we will shortly learn that the “cutting instrument” dropped out of the window of Tyler’s car was in fact an X-Acto brand knife with a blade attached that matched a set found still inside Tyler’s car.”
It’s horrible what Kooyman did to those cats. He cut their tails off, he burned them alive, but his focus was on torturing cats.
IF Tyler is guilty of this, he tortured cats explicitly to inflict harm on their owners when they discovered the remains and specifically to confirm to them that a human or humans was(were) involved in their attack. It’s a power of presentation attack. It’s an attack meant to provoke an emotional response of fear from human beings. I love cats, I know they’re special, but IF Tyler or another human being did this, the purpose of the actions was not merely animal predation(which is bad enough), it’s human predation below murder, but definitely harassment and definitely terror inspired.
It’s not that I don’t think they could have been caused by animals, it’s that they were confirmed to have been caused by a human from a total of 33 cases reported and I doubt institutional incompetence on this scale. It’s a law of averages thing for me. If I assume average competence and there is an exclusionary set(14), then at least half of the bodies identified positively are reasonably not from other causes. An example: I have 40 checks that their owners report to me as fraudulent. I determine that 15 of the checks are in fact misreported checks by verifying the checks by some other means, but that leaves 25. I hand those all 40 of the checks to an expert of some kind who has in the past identified forgeries, and he tells me 15 of these are forgeries and 35 of them do not appear or have signs of being forgeries then if I trust that the forgery expert has successfully identified at least one forgery in the past, at least half of his forgeries should be reasonably considered forgeries, if he has not called any of the exclusion set forgeries.
The opposing view is that I would have to believe all 40 submitters are lying and/or mistaken and that my expert, who they don’t know is lying 15 times and willing to perjure himself to lie those 15 times with no motive except to unlawfully incarcerate a suspect he does not know, or that he is completely incompetent at his job.
That’s a rational, reasoned and logical response. He could be wrong, but what is the likelihood he is completely wrong?
The car case is irrational, there are other things that happen to a body struck by a car and blaming all 19 cases on a car is unfortunate and fails the above exam, it assumes that on several if not all of the remaining 19 cases, there was no examination to determine if the cats were hit by a 1-2 ton vehicle at a speed greater than 5 miles per hour. An animal could remove skin, genitals, the jawbone, and even slit the belly. An animal could have licked the bodies clean, giving the bodies a “washed look” (remember this please), but out of 33 cases, 19 were confirmed by Law Enforcement as having been done by a human or humans, and their killing and mutilation occurred in another location for the stated reason that no blood was found on or around the body and their bodies were moved and/or displayed, and because Tyler’s car was tracked returning to the same location after venturing to his home for a period of time. Of those 14 cases that were discounted, how many of those do you think had blood on them? Just a wild guess, how many of the 14 that were found to be road kill, animal attacks or some other cause of death, had blood on them or around them? Are you saying none, all or n?
Kooyman did so in these numbers.
Kooyman had the bodies in his home and in his car, an act of convenience.
You do not know the way these animals were displayed or even if they were displayed–neither do I. If a cat was found on your front door step, and the genitals and the skin on the lower abdomen and back legs were removed as if the cat had a pair of pants removed, and the cat was exposed towards your door, what would you think?
If you suspected there were other people involved in the attacks, and planned on using their knowledge of the scene of the crimes against them, would you put everything in the arrest Affidavit, knowing you might have to use their foreknowledge in those Affidavits?
You believe this to be true, you do not KNOW this to be true. You’ve never seen these cases, you’ve never seen the other cases, eyes on scene. You’ve never seen these photos. Neither have I. You assume they are identical, with a reasonable amount of interest based on adjectives used in a few places in the affidavit, but the cases that were ruled out are not discussed in the affidavit, so you do not have a basis to compare the methods used to identify them as man made beyond the lack of blood. You have that one piece to attach to, but are ignoring the possibility in your most recent statement that something else could have been done.
That’s less than logical.
Take a deep breath and consider this for a moment. Tyler may be guilty, no matter how much you want to believe. Stop for one second, close your eyes and as repugnant as it may seem, consider this series of assumptions.
1. 9 of the 19 cats were killed by a human being.
2. There’s blood on the X-Acto brand knife found outside of Tyler’s door that matches a set later recovered from his car.
3. Of the 9 cats that were killed by Tyler or can positively be linked to Tyler through evidence, 8 of the cats were displayed in poses that were not “natural” to a cat who had died of natural causes and were meant to inspire fear in their owners.
4. Tyler’s attorney has received information through a court release that his client was positively identified and recorded leaving his mother’s home carrying something to his car in a black plastic bag. He then drove away, and left his car on the side of the road, but through a mishap in surveillance was not seen with the bag when surveillance found his car a few minutes later, as he returned to his car. When he was confronted seconds after returning to his vehicle, no sign of the black plastic bag was visible in or around the car.
These aren’t facts of this case, they’re conjecture, they’re theory, they’re reasoned responses to “what might be,” that are actually just as credible as your suppositions, because they’ve happened in other cases.
Feel free to open your eyes, take a deep breath and come back to your original position minus these concepts.
I carefully used the word “IF” in my earlier responses, you need to come back at this with the words maybe and if, so you can address the fact that there is a reasonable position that assumes guilt at this time.
Jason, in response to your post @ August 3, 2009 at 5:33 am; I don’t know how you make the “boxes” so I’ll quote a portion of your post and respond to it (probably won’t make a lot of sense to anyone else though lol)
J: Except that they positively identified 19 of the 33 cases as not animal attacks in some undisclosed way and you assume they couldn’t possibly know their jobs.
DP: I do have a problem w/the “undisclosed way,” but I make no assumptions about the quality of work LE has done.
J: …an X-Acto brand knife with a blade attached that matched a set found still inside Tyler’s car.”
DP: if this matches something that was in TW’s car, then they have to connect that to some crime, unless X-Acto knives have been outlawed in Florida?
J: IF Tyler is guilty of this, he tortured cats explicitly to inflict harm on their owners when they discovered the remains and specifically to confirm to them that a human or humans was(were) involved in their attack. It’s a power of presentation attack.
DP: in every other community which has dealt w/these “cat mutilations,” they ALL believed that person/persons were responsible precisely because of how “the remains were POSED, AS IF TO TAUNT the owner”
J: but IF Tyler or another human being did this, the purpose of the actions was not merely animal predation …
DP: when I say “animal predation” I mean: the cause of the cat’s death was due to wild/stray animals (it may have rec’d prior injuries which made it more vulnerable to such attach, i.e. car … ) MD Animal Control states that 50-60 cats are killed each MONTH in MD by animals and cars.
J: It’s not that I don’t think they could have been caused by animals, it’s that they were confirmed …
DP: HOW they were “confirmed” is vitally important in cases of so-called “cat mutilation” (Dr. Lockwood.)
J: It’s a law of averages thing for me. If I assume average competence and there is an exclusionary set (14), then at least half of the bodies identified positively are reasonably not from other causes. …He could be wrong, but what is the likelihood he is completely wrong?
DP: Perhaps some cases were so clearly caused by “other than human” that you or I could have deduced this, but the others require autopsies to know, in fact…?
J: The car case is irrational, there are other things that happen to a body struck by a car and blaming all 19 cases on a car is …
DP: I suggested a possible explanation of how some of these cats may have been made “vulnerable” to wild animals, I did not say that all 33, nor even 19, were hit by cars (although, according to MDAC, it would fit the statistics – and these cats were all older animals, making them more vulnerable to begin with.)
J: but out of 33 cases, 19 were confirmed by Law Enforcement …
DP: In the particular (and plentiful) cases I have been referring to, LE, vets, animal control, other “experts” have all been found to be 100% wrong when they have relied on their eyes only – autopsy is essential. This is not a slight on LE, this is fact. (MD does not even have many of the remains as they were disposed of prior to calls placed to LE.)
J: Tyler’s car was tracked returning to the same location after venturing to his home for a period of time. …
DP: So, let’s say I’m at my friend’s house and we get to talking, and then I remember something I had to show her… so I say, “I have some errands to run, then I’ll stop by my place and get it for you…and I do, and I come back… (and in spite of the incredible surveillance – “no one ever saw him do anything wrong”)
J: Of those 14 cases that were discounted, how many of those do you think had blood on them? Just a wild guess, how many of the 14 that were found to be road kill, animal attacks or some other cause of death, had blood on them or around them? Are you saying none, all …?
DP: I wouldn’t hazard a guess – how could I know? This ties in to the above response, re: perhaps some were obvious cause of death that ruled out person(s), and others were “assumed” to be caused by person(s). (if the cat is on a non-porous surface, blood would be visible; had it dragged itself into it’s own backyard and then been attacked by a stray dog, the blood would dissipate quickly into the ground)
Kooyman killed in high numbers… but he also left “SOME TELLTALE SIGN OF HIS INVOLVEMENT”
J quoting DP: The descriptions in the cases in South Florida are IDENTICAL to those in which pathology testing has later irrefutably proved: animal predation. No one would have believed it, but then the testing proved it.
J: You believe this to be true, you do not KNOW this to be true. You’ve never seen these cases, you’ve never seen the other cases, eyes on scene. You’ve never seen these photos. Neither have I. You assume they are identical, with a reasonable amount of interest based on adjectives used in a few places in the affidavit, but the cases that were ruled out are not discussed in the affidavit, so you do not have a basis to compare the methods used to identify them as man made beyond the lack of blood. You have that one piece to attach to, but are ignoring the possibility in your most recent statement that something else could have been done.
DP: I clearly stated “the descriptions” used are identical, Jason, and I garnered this from cat owner statements, LE statements, the affidavit if I recall correctly… Descriptions like, “cut as if with ‘surgical precision’”, “posed as if to taunt” someone must have killed elsewhere and brought back to scene because “no blood,” “cat serial killer,” etc., etc.
DP: These descriptions are the exact descriptions used in all the other cases I’ve referred to.
J: Tyler may be guilty, no matter how much you want to believe.
DP: If he did, he’ll pay, simple as that. Tyler Weinman is not my main focus, rather the cat deaths are, the parrelels to other (MANY other) “cat mutilation” cases, the statements/discoveries made by Dr. Lockwood, pathology reports following community hysteria and the hunt for a “psychopath” etc etc … There are TOO many parrelels, too many patterns to ignore.
J: …These aren’t facts of this case, they’re conjecture, they’re theory, they’re reasoned responses to “what might be,” that are actually just as credible as your suppositions, because they’ve happened in other cases.
DP: an hypothetical is essential to arriving at any theory, and it must be tested (as we are doing), and therefore we have no argument on this point.
DP: I hypothesize about what may have occurred during interrogation (records will verify at some future point what actually occurred), about the “look” in the booking photo, and the like. I am not theorizing when I say that the South Florida cases are too similar in every way to the multitude of known “cat mutilation cases,” because one can line up the descriptions used for the finds (remains), the fact that no sign of human presence was found on scene or nearby, etc. The similarities are striking and unavoidable.
Jason, please know that you have earned my respect. It did not take long for me to recognize that you are honest, analytical, impartial, reasonable, and rational. Any debate we have on these points is just that, debate. Your thoroughness causes me to check and double check my every assumption and conclusion. In doing so, I have become more certain than I was to start with, that a person did not kill these cats. (i.e. the more I examine these cases [FL VS so many others] the more patterns I see.)
Mazzi wrote:
1. A full mental evaluation by who?
2. Can I get a CT of the right hemisphere of his brain and this survey filled out while we get an EEG? (No defense attorney would allow this or want it. A CT of my skull will and does show that my left brain tips up over the center line of my skull on the top and the right comes under and to the left of the center line on the bottom–the word twisted would be used on the stand, even though this is uncommon but not related to Sociopaths. My EEG shows no process differences outside of REM sleep, but get me sleepy and and you get this strange little shift in the right hemisphere that my Migraine doctor said “I don’t know what that is, but it’s something we want to watch in the future”)
3. I think profiling can be incredibly useful. I like catching crabs with nets, but if I accidentally, by “magic,” drag in an over the small size limit sized flounder… Why shouldn’t I eat it? Likewise, if I make a profile for a Sociopath and it turns up someone who had a psychotic break with reality due to some angel dust on some of the marijuana he purchased from a dealer, I shouldn’t reject the find, simply because the profile pulled in something I wasn’t looking for
Most serial killers are sociopaths by fiat, but given the length and breadth of social science and psychiatry, you know there are literally a handful of things in the DSM-IV that could explain why someone would exhibit anti-social behavior in the form of murder and not be a sociopath. The chance of those is lower than him being an honest to God sociopath, but there’s a chance I didn’t want to leave out, since if he’s not a sociopath, the prosecution is still going to press on him in other ways.
To what she’s been trying to say all along, one of her chief arguments is that these were animal attacks. I think that’s going to be disproven on Tuesday or Wednesday of this week at or around 4:00 EST. If I were writing this script, I’d either have DNA evidence by now to put at the end of a giant stream of conjecture or wave under Tyler’s attorney’s nose, or I’d put a matter of facts vet/medical examiner in front of that same microphone while I set a fire under the lab for being so interminably slow.
-Election on November 3rd looks like it’s for city council reps
-The state attorney who is prosecuting this case won re-election to her 5th term on 5/3/2008 They look like 4 year terms to me.
-The Sheriff’s office was renamed to Director from what I can find. Director Robert Parker was the assistant Director under the recently elected mayor. The Mayor was re-elected in 2008, but I can’t find if the Director is appointed by the Mayor or an elected official.
I’m not going to respond to the string of posts until after the “alleged press conferences” this week. I think other than a few questions here, I’ve already gone over my stance there. It’s not that I don’t like sparring, it’s that I don’t think I have anything new to add or that there are new points there to argue. I’m fairly certain there will be a press conference this week, and I’d bet money on Tuesday or Wednesday. That’s results in Monday(they probably came in on Friday), confer with the defense on Monday morning, wait 24 hours for the motions to close at 4:00 on Monday, then release it after the 24 hour grace period, or face briefs in court on Tuesday, release at noon on Wednesday, that lets them have the press conference at 4:00.
You two are starting to tie yourselves pretty tight to innocent. I’m going to tie myself to a press release this week. If I’m wrong, I think I might actually drop a couple of percentage points. I think they have a slam dunk case coming, and that this week would be the right time to release, especially after the “partial confession” release late news cycle.
If I’m right, I come off as a genius.
If I’m wrong, the egg will wipe off of me.
DSM-IV – The book that keeps on giving, growing in relation to the latest anti-psychotic med approved for sale…
Migraines – me too! (since age 8) – I say it’s a mark of genius, Jason ;)
“egg…” The wonderful thing about debating honestly, and respectfully, is that it matters not who is right, who is wrong… instead, healthy debate causes us to re-examine our premises, to dig deeper in order to respond to opposing points of view, it causes us to be more critical of our position, to look more carefully. This is always good. Personally, you have helped me to learn how to calm down and collect my thoughts, how to communicate them better in print, and I have carefully looked into every argument you have raised because I respect your opinion. ;)
August 4th , 9a.m. – This is a Nebbia hearing. Why??
“tied to innocent” — this is, strangely, the most difficult point to communicate…. Yes, I believe, based on everything I have learned about cat “mutilation” cases across the country (including Lauderhill and, apparently almost 50% of cases in MD) that these cat deaths fit the profile of animal predation. I lean heavily on Dr. Lockwood’s experience who, as you have correctly pointed out prior – is an expert in animal cruelty cases and therefore not “biased” toward discounting human involvement… But, let’s say, in spite of all of this, MD produces irrefutable evidence that Tyler Weinman did do these things, then what? Then the law exists to deal with him. That’s it.
I believe, based on every argument I’ve put forth, that if ever there was a case where we should support the “presumption of innocence,” this case is certainly one. I do not think we can be “too cautious” in this particular case.
My migraines are caused by chocolate, caffeine and too much MSG in one or two meals. I have a lot of food intolerance for some reason, but all of this started when I was 17. I mean, like within days of my birthday.
I agree on the debate, but I can be verbose. I can keep on spitting out these same points, but I think we’re running tight.
To the Nebbia case:
Let’s say for a moment that you’re a defense attorney and you’ve sworn this oath to give your client the best case you can possibly give within the confines of the law, and you know that if this goes to trial, he loses(for whatever reason).
Let’s say you hear that the State has new evidence and it’s coming out Tuesday afternoon at a press conference only people with press credentials should know about. You also know that if the evidence that is presented there is referred to in the public as a slam dunk, the State Prosecutor’s office is going to get thousands of phone calls that afternoon (from 4 to 5:00 that afternoon specifically) to revoke your defendant’s bond and put him back in a holding cell, in an Orange jumper for the next few court appearances and the next few public photos of him.
This turns into a Nebbia case. Not to beat this to death, but Nebbia was this store clerk/owner who sold a loaf of bread and a quart of milk for 18 cents and was tried, convicted and fined 5 dollars for breaking a law and a price set by the Milk board of the State of New York. His case was staged. His crime was staged, specifically to use the 5th and 18th amendment to get the Supreme Court to hear the case and establish guidelines for when a court and when the state can establish strictures and laws for the common good.
Almost every single bond removal is done so under the auspices that the bonded criminal broke their bond arrangement in some way. They ran away, they broke the law, the didn’t abide by the court’s instructions, or some other infraction along those lines.
If Tyler has been successfully detained by his family and friends, none of those actions took place, so the minority equation shows up. Is Tyler a danger to the community, or is it in the community’s best interests to deny him freedom awaiting his trial?
The State Attorney shows up with phone logs or simply says, my phone is ringing off the hook to get the “accused” off the streets. The voters, taxpayers, or community want him off their streets; will the court please revoke his bond in the interest of the common good?
Tyler’s attorney comes up and say, “Wait, it would require an act of the legislature in this case, please don’t violate this constitutional precedent.”
And the burden of proof is with the State Attorney to prove that the court does have the responsibility and the legal precedence in this case to revoke his bond.
There are other reasons for Nebbia cases, but this is probably it.
I probably shouldn’t have read this – I have to head out for a few hours work and now my BP is skyrocketing!
Do we have any RIGHTS left??? This is so outrageous it makes me physically ill. That the State can play these games with a person’s life – a person thus far ONLY accused! – who has abided by the rules, who’s bond was set outrageously high!! If they are planning on putting something else out to garner more public support for their case – what about a gag or?!!! It’s just unreasonable, unfair, sleazy tactics. Defense better DEMAND the results of the %$#$@$#@$#@$#@ autopsies of every single cat! Aaaaaaaaaaaah!
(breathe…)
My migraines are triggered by changes in barometric pressure – as in storm fronts – I feel this storm front starting one now…)
There’s a chance this Nebbia case has a second argument, that the nature of the warrant was too broad in an attempt to exclude some of the evidence collected.
I haven’t gone through my boxes to find my book, but I thought that a Nebbia hearing was to make sure that the bond funds used were not the fruit of illegal activities. Or rather, that they were not acquired through ill-gotten gains, directly or indirectly.
Usually that would be for drug dealers or thieves. It doesn’t make sense in this case, unless Tyler got bond posted by someone who stands to profit if he turns out to be guilty. The only way I can see that in this case if if his bond came from a newspaper or publisher, paying for the rights to his story.
I could be wrong here. That term is not one of the more common legal terms, but I remember having it on an exam.
I’m not sure how that would tie into:
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=CASE&court=US&vol=291&page=502
But it could since it defines some of the boundaries of “corrective legislation.”
That was my understand as well re: Nebbia (state challenges the source of the funds)… Your thought on the possible involvement by a potential publisher – hadn’t even thought of that – but how, Mazzi, can this be construed by the sate as”ill gotten?” (unless there’s a broader definition?)
(Jason – have copied your response into WP… will send a response to you shortly)
Yet another catch-22, I’m afraid.
If Tyler is found guilty, then selling his story would be the fruit of his criminal actions. But the same is true of anyone. If an embezzler is arrested, and can use their stolen millions to bond out, and then to hire a team of high-profile lawyers, it is an unfair advantage to them. And once, they are found guilty, the money is gone, so they HAVE used the ill-gained funds.
Unfortunately, this sword swings both ways. If the embezzlers are in fact innocent, the freezing of their assets could cause them to be unable to procure the kind of defense that they need.
There are laws on the books (the Son of Sam law sticks in my head) that prevent the guilty from profiting from their crimes. That’s understandable.
The main problem here is that (if in fact I am correct in my guess about Tyler) the law is being applied too broadly. Or maybe not. I am not sure. I will have to think about it. But I do know this – in a case where possibly illegally gained funds ALREADY exist, there is no question that they should be considered for freezing, within reason. I am just not sure, since we must have a presumption of innocence, if it should apply to a case where the outcome of the case determines if the funds are legal or not.
Tyler has every right to sell his story if he is innocent. But not if he is guilty. I am getting a headache, lol.
*state
It was this understanding that sent me ballistic yesterday… if this is a revocation of bond hearing, when the accused has complied w/the restrictions, etc., that’s just plain wrong. (and if, to Jason’s point, the state has some “surprise” that will whip up the lynch mob’s emotions once more — how can it be considered anything BUT manipulation for political gain when the hearing was set presumably BEFORE the state had the “results” in??)
Sorry, another footnote to Jason: please understand that I am in way questioning your integrity OR level-headedness… My reference was to my own puzzling with why you are seeing my arguments as a defense of Tyler rather than the statements of fact they are, i.e. Lockwood’s writings, prior cases, patterns that clearly resemble these, etc. I’ve tried to remain clear and addressed only what we HAVE when discussing the remains… have ‘hypothesized’ as to interrogation scenarios and the like, but… perhaps it’s coming across as conviction that Tyler is innocent but that’s merely a result of what I am explaining not the motivator. Am I saying this right, am I making any sense? So, I was wondering if there were some emotional reason that has you attached to Tyler’s guilt, or if there’s something in the way I am explaining “cat mutilation” cases… that was all.
Your explanation is a bit convoluted, but I think its the same as what I was saying before.
The act of reviewing evidence in this case involves mostly evidence of guilt. (All we have is LE’s and the media’s versions.) But there are facts that can be gleaned by reviewing this evidence especially if one is deliberately looking for innocent explanations.
The easy part is the stuff we have been spoon-fed. The challenge is in looking for the stuff no one bothers to tell us and that we have to piece together ourselves.
Naturally, when we have to dig into something and spend a lot of time adding the pieces together, we want to share that information. It’s what I call “AHA” moments.
It doesn’t mean that (unless we stumble over something incredible) there is a conclusive decision. The way I see it, it’s just balancing the scales of fairness.
Once more details are revealed, the scale will need to be re-balanced. It may go so far down against Tyler that there is no chance that he is innocent. Or vice versa. But till then, it’s only fair that we at least look at the other side of the scale.
http://altlaw.org/v1/cases/844788
Maybe this is it… I see it in 4 of the 6 cases called “Nebbia” cases I looked at, the other two are older and cite the Supreme court case as a constitutional rejection of the terms “Public Good.”
This one covers a suspected drug dealer’s ability to pay bail and asking for the bail money to be returned to pay the attorneys in the case. It makes much more sense in Tyler’s case.
Sorry Maz, DP, I think I’m wrong here.
Maybe wrong in application, but not necessarily in principle. If the Nebbia case was being cited, any outcomes from that case could be applicable, in theory.
As I said, the term “nebbia hearing” is loose legal jargon, that only lawyers would be likely to know offhand. Without knowing that specific terminology, you made a reasonable conclusion, based on what you know about legal case citation.
I haven’t actually found anything that officially says he has a nebbia hearing scheduled anyway, so we really don’t know what it is all about. DP mentioned it, but I am not sure where she got it from. I guess we’ll see tomorrow, eh?
Mazzi, re: Nebbia hearing – searched Miami Dade County Clerk Criminal Justice site; case search. You have to select more detail (or whatever) and then you can see all motions/hearings… might make more sense to you. (I have the link if needed)
On this topic, Mazzi, came across this site and have been reading through it this evening…:
truthinjustice(org)
see:
– police and prosecutorial misconduct,
(@ bottom of page, select “Prosecutorial Misconduct Study”)
– recent cases
Sorry! Posted in wrong place – re-posting where it belongs, below (I think lol)
Court Case No.: F-09-019761
(#’s- sequence of events)
#110 06/19/2009 TRIAL UNIT ASSIGNED: ORGANIZED CRIME (?)
#121 07/01/2009 INTAKE UNIT ASSIGNED: PUBLIC CORRUPTION (?)
#161 07/31/2009 AMENDED INFORMATION FILED CHANGE IN THE LANGUAGE OF THE CHARGES
#162 07/31/2009 REPORT RE: NEBBIA HEARING SET FOR 08/04/2009 AT 09:00
#163 08/04/2009 NOTICE OF APPEARANCE AND PLEA
(#163 is the latest entry, apparently following this a.m.’s hearing?)
Also, looked at the pot charge which apparently is the “one gram” allegedly found by LEO’s during “traffic stop” on the 15th(?) May? –
Cannabis Possession” Charge (my comments in parenthesis) –
06/03/2009 DEFN CITY CHANGED BY FINALIST PURSUANT TO CLERK
06/03/2009 CONSOLIDATED WITH TRAFFIC CASE # 5448-GDS, 5450-GDS
06/24/2009 WRITTEN PLEA OF NOT GUILTY DEMANDS TRIAL BY JURY; DEMAND FOR DISCOVERY (interesting)
06/30/2009 REPORT RE: SOUNDING SET FOR 07/15/2009 AT 09:15
07/15/2009 MOTION FOR CONTINUANCE FILED 07/15/2009 ORAL
SET FOR 07/15/2009 AT 14:06 GRANTED DEFS
(no update since? so, what happened to this?)
I can’t speak for DP, but I am completely on the fence about this case. We don’t know what his mental evaluation says or will say, so everything is still speculation. However, I am assuming that Tyler would be (or has been) given an MMPI test to determine what sociopath tendencies he may have. This is kind of hard to fake – the test is well designed, and is pretty good at determining if someone is trying to beat the test.
I tend to evaluate circumstantial cases like this: I look at what we DO know, and try to figure out if the suspect could be guilty. Then I focus on how they could NOT be guilty. Usually the guilty stuff is easier to find and to interpret than the not guilty stuff, so I often spend more time thinking about what possible explanations there are for innocence.
As I said before, improbable is not the same as impossible. However, if all of the possible explanations for innocence outweigh the circumstantial factors for guilt, or vice versa, eventually I choose a side.
There are still a few nagging doubts about Tyler – enough that I can’t commit – but I do see several clear (and BIG) ways that this could be a miscarriage of justice. I personally feel that I need a lot more information before I can decide.
I really don’t have any personal attachment to this case. I only care that if Tyler is innocent (or legally innocent) that he not be railroaded. If he is guilty, I won’t cry or feel let down, and I won’t be embarrassed by my thought processes. The very first post I wrote about this case basically said that if he is guilty he should be punished harshly, and that I hope to God the cops have more evidence than they have presented. I stand by that position, even after all of the shenanigans in this thread =P
Mazzi,
I just read your article regarding the Assistant State Prosecutor…
That moron should not be practicing law.
To paraphrase the document:
The ASA on this case in 2002, knew the judge in a case he was going to prosecute. They went out to lunch together and the ASA repeatedly tried to get the Judge to discuss the capital case outside of the court room, outside of private quarters and attempted to sway the judge on a motion MATERIAL to the time line of the case. On a CAPITAL MURDER CASE!
1. Even a JV football player with a concussion and a 40 IQ should know better than to attempt to use a personal relationship with a judge to affect a case or an aspect of a case.
2. When on a capital murder case, where someone has already been MURDERED, you should not risk the state’s case by getting so much as a speeding ticket while you’re prosecuting the case.
Even with what I know now, the prosecutor lost any respect in my eyes, even if he obtains a confession on the stand and presents Lucifer himself as a witness for the prosecution and gets him to tell the truth. He should be on permanent traffic duty for that kind of crap… as in directing traffic, preferably with a team of officers to back him up when he messes up.
Just ouch….
I totally agree. It’s obscene.
His “defense” was that he was simply discussing a simple procedural ruling, not anything involving the outcome of the case, but think about this – he put that poor judge in a TERRIBLE position. This was her first capital case, and he tainted it, even after being warned. She had to choose between losing a friend and tainting her career.
That shows me that he has a huge ethical failing. (The judge, on the other hand, should be applauded wildly for doing the right thing, in spite of her personal loss.)
Now, whether that impacts his handling of Tyler’s case or not remains to be seen. But it certainly adds an unexpected twist, doesn’t it? If we grant people positions of power, the least we can expect is that they not abuse that power.
And, if one has decided on Tyler’s guilt based in some degree on the word of the authorities (and what motivation they could have to be less than honest), this could have some bearing.
As a side note Maz, most of my informants are on vacation. I have two posts awaiting moderation.
One has a link to the Supreme Court ruling I found in 2 cases referred to as Nebbia cases. They were used whenever the words “Public Good” were used to withdraw bond.
The other 4 I found, refer to an Appeals court case in which a drug dealer had a million dollars in assets seized and plead to the court that she could not pay her 100,000 dollar bond and her lawyer, so her bond was returned to her attorneys to pay for her defense.
I think that the term “nebbia hearing” is loose jargon for a legal term about the source funds.
But, since the Nebbia case itself has been cited for many later cases, it may not be entirely clear which part of the Nebbia case is being referred to in a simple internet search.
Legalese is pretty much a series of codes and crytograms, lol. It’s what a huge percentage of the law school time is devoted to. It’s designed that way, to keep the lawyers “necessary” and thus able to command huge bucks for deciphering the shit. The shit that THEY make up. Since only a person trained in understanding the shit that only a person trained in writing the shit can write, they effectively keep the majority of non-shit-trained folks out of the picture.
If I were a cynic (ROFL) I would call it a big fat racket.
Nebbia is the last name of both cases’ principles, and both have extensive citations because one appears to be the definitive 5th, 6th and 14th amendment case to cite when a prosecutor wants to invoke the principal good, public good, common good, or community will especially in cases involving any sort of adjudication by a court when a legislature should be involved, and the other is relatively current(60′s), has thousands and thousands of cases tied to it through drug law, organized crime law, cult and mega-churches, and finally politicians. The Supreme court hasn’t heard anything beyond the appeals decision and it’s been challenged a lot of times to no avail.
I just realized that the post you are responding to has not yet been approved by Max. (There are a couple of links in it). So, anyone who reads this exchange before then may be confused.
My initial post will not be linked to this one, so look above. Search by Von Zamft. It’s pretty interesting. DP, you should be stunned (but maybe not shocked) if you haven’t already heard about it =P
Very interesting, Mazzi.
I started think “Nifong” when the prosecution first began arguing to keep the arrest affidavit sealed. They argued in such a way as to imply that other “suspects” were named within and that to release before (whatever) would damage their case. Initially I thought this nonsensical, because any portion could, w/a reasonable argument presented the court, be redacted. Thought it more likely that they were realizing they had rushed to judgment and were buying themselves time. When the affidavit was released and no “others” are mentioned, well… hmm… he lied. Okay, so now I knew something of his ethics. Did not know the details (his background), but it certainly fits w/my initial opinion. (seen so many of these “situations” now, starting to wonder: are they all ethically-challenged?)
…and this (ethically-challenged elected officials) all ties in to the media’s role who, God forbid, should ever question the veracity of an elected official and risk future access, and …’who cares anyway as long as we’re making money!’ Somebody gets railroaded, spends decades in prison because of it? – just “another story.”
Jason has also mentioned the lawsuit factor – IF Tyler is innocent — and I’m cynical about this as well. Richard Jewell – Atlanta Journal Constitution.; state monetary “limitations” re: lawsuits; the near nullification of meaning to the term “probable cause” pretty much shields LE… Lawsuits can (and should) happen, but I think the best someone who’s been wrongly accused (by LE/media) can hope for is a best-selling book. Perhaps as more of us have this experience (or know of someone who has) there will be a greater “market” for such a book.
Kenneth Fox (one of my “pet” cases) won a huge settlement for his wrongful handling. I reference his case a lot, because it was such an example of over zealousness in all aspects of prosecution.
By the way, while he initially had the support of all of his family and much of the community, LE and the media soon had the community ready to lynch the poor guy.
Bad enough that his beautiful, precious baby was murdered, but then he was vilified, imprisoned, raped in jail, financially destroyed, etc. And, the fucking DA knew what was going on – he was willing to trade Kevin Fox for his own re-election. It’s a sick story, but if we don’t learn our lesson from it, then we are in big trouble.
That’s the sort of thing that makes my head feel like its going to implode!! How best to express this…
Evil exists, bad guys do bad things, we don’t like it but we rely on the “system” to mete out justice and deal with acts of violence, etc.
However, when the “good guys” start acting like bad guys for their own benefit (or whatever rationalization they apply), when they betray our trust and railroad anybody to lock up the win in an election!
The laws are designed to protect “us from them,” (the law-abiding from the lawbreakers) BUT when the line of demarcation becomes so blurred that the State (who we’ve ceded the use of force to), starts believing that all of us are “them” and they alone are “us,” we’re all in a boatload of trouble.
DP,
The following photo is more than mildly graphic, so before you go there, let me describe what you’re going to see.
This is a photo taken from Tyler’s Facebook account before it was removed. On the right, allegedly, you’ll see Tyler holding up a Gray and white tabby, manipulating a cat that may be dead, to paw at a cat that is obviously dead in the hands of another, unidentified man. That man has blood on the back of his forearm and is holding a gold and mostly white tabby that has a gash across mid belly that is currently covered in blood. He’s holding the cat by the head. Both “men” are smiling in the photo.
http://laprensaus.com/interna.php?cont=2032
The next photo is also graphic and is also attached to a foreign news service not affiliated with the Miami-Dade Police or the State Attorney’s office.
This is a Slovak website covering the case. The picture you’ll see is of a cat under one year of age that appears to be pock marked by acid/ The cat has been washed and remains damp. The eyes have been cut out of its skull.
http://tvnoviny.sk/spravy/svet/otrasne-mackam-vytrhal-zuby-a-znetvoril-ich.html
The caption under the photo is hard to translate,
Neither this kitten neprežila sadistic attack by malicious ma?kovraha
I can’t find anyone I know who can translate ma?kovraha or neprežila, but the gist of the article is identical to the other article.
Here’s a supposition for you. What if the American media has been asked by Law Enforcement, to withhold information and pictures while the police attempt to find the other man in the picture with Tyler, and attempt to collect evidence? These pictures aren’t showing up in American publications, but they are showing up in foreign countries.
What if the press in the US has these pictures, but have been asked not to show them.
The middle picture does not show Tyler doing anything more than playing with the corpse or corpses of cats. It is not 100% proof, but you’ve been asking for more, have suggested that an animal could have been responsible for these attacks and have said the media is culpable. I’m offering a different theory.
3 “men” have been killing at least 19 cats with a variety of materials. Tyler can be linked to 8 of them by location and was easier to pick up because he had prior arrests. Tyler has not been linked to the acid splash cat and it may not even be related to him.
This is conjecture from a rumor mill and from external sources, largely in foreign language press that may not have understood, cared about, or considered valid a press blackout on this material.
Sorry for the graphic pictures, but if our media isn’t going to cover it, I think it’s only reasonable to at least consider that it may be valid.
On this topic, Mazzi, came across this site and have been reading through it this evening…:
truthinjustice(org)
see:
– police and prosecutorial misconduct,
(@ bottom of page, select “Prosecutorial Misconduct Study”)
– recent cases
Jason, quite often it is foreign press that exposes truths which are ‘manipulated’ within our borders, most often relating to economy and ‘war,’ however not unlike here, media worldwide likes a good scandal and seems the Slovakians are no different. Here’s a translation of the 2nd link you posted (w/the ‘acid’ cat):
“Residents Miami tipovali that malicious killer may be wandering savage pittbull. Others argued that the kitten has to do a man: “We went out and found our Sarah lie dead on the ground. At first we thought that it was hit by a car, but it is now clear to us that it killed a sadist, “described the recent pain cat owner Alicia Glazer.
Other owners who find their pets, the dead said that the mali vytrhané teeth and some even lacked half the face. “Nowhere was the blood. We have about do?inenia someone who knows exactly what it was doing. “Remuneration dolapenie malicious ma?kovraha climbed to 15 000 dollars. Whether it is someone won, the police did not yet.” (14.06.2009) Google translation, some words are not translated but there’s enough to see that speculation is made to pitbulls and/or persons… ending w/reward info.
The 1st photo you’ve linked to does not appear to show Tyler, but two other young men…
The ‘acid cat’ appears to be a kitten, or at least quite young whereas, from owners descriptions, as well as whatever sources quoted by media so far: cats in MD are referred to as older )10-15 yr old range)… Looks like the “news” threw in a graphic photo depicting “animal cruelty” to help the story. (note that the fact that this kitten is splashed w/something acidic IS evidence of human involvement.)
I don’t think that we require pictorial evidence of how the remains “appeared” in any case. The manner in which they have been described is exactly as these finds have been described in numerous other cases of (what was believed to be) “cat mutilations,” lacking any on scene human presence evidence. (no “sign”). The fact that the wording is identical tells me all I need to know at this point — even Lauderhill used the SAME verbiage UNTIL necropsies were performed and – surprise – showed “wild animal predation.”
I’m trying to get the person who wrote the article to tell me where they got the photo. Someone else suggested that this came from Tyler’s “Social Website Account” and that it is indeed Tyler on the right–why do you think it is not Tyler, is there a tell tale sign? The man in the center may be someone Tyler knows very well(as in a friend on his on the same Affidavit mentioned website) . The picture appears, by the name, to have been provided by Jaime Ferrero an animal activist. Some of his writings are in English.
As far as acid splash cat, please find me something to go on here. How does a wild animal produce acid burns like that?
The eyes missing, granted, but name a chordate that does this to its food and you’ll one up me.
I’m offering you a different position here, and plan on providing about 2 other articles from foreign press that I’m trying to get some validation on (if they got it from a common news wire, then no dice). One uses the same picture and claims within the article that it came from the facebook site, but the language is literally Greek or Macedonian or something like that (I’m not sure).
I think Tyler was the only one of the three suspects in arms reach because his probation for another crime prevented him from leaving the State and the Country. That’s my supposition.
Why do I think the photo is not of Tyler? There is very little to go on in this pic, the face is obscured (as you’ve stated), which leaves his arms as the largest area… My first impression was than the arms appear larger, more muscular, than Tyler. We have several pics of Tyler to compare to, and when I look at them his arms seem typical 18 yr old, not especially muscular. Anyhow, the point you made of the other kid being a possibly friend of Tyler’s is a good one, but there’s still the problem of “who” he is standing next to…
RE: “acid” pic — sorry for any misunderstanding if I caused it, but what I was saying was that the kind of damage seen on this kitten IS evidence of human involvement/cruelty (as opposed to the wild animal predation cases where there is no sign of human involvement).
Jason, “…Someone else suggested that this came from Tyler’s “Social Website Account” ”
Yet another reason for me to think it is NOT Tyler. How often when someone is accused of whatever, is it because someone who viewed something incriminating on his/her FB/MySpace page called police or told a teacher who reports it? In this case, with the excessive coverage – not one person has claimed to have seen any such highly incriminating thing posted on either of his group pages. A pic like that – with THESE charges?
I’m staying out of this discussion, because I can not, and will not go look at the pictures. I am a weenie about “viewing” suffering. I can read about it, but seeing it makes me want to puke.
However, the last post by DP is a pretty good point. Whatever these photos show, it’s not likely to be readily linked to Tyler, or they would have gone viral soon after his name became public. There are millions of “internet investigators” and there is zero chance that someone would not have found a cached copy or something.
Other than that…. continue please…
This isn’t someone random from the internet. This is someone I trust, but do not expect or require you to trust. The Affidavit mentions some concerning items from Facebook including some posts. I feel reasonably comfortable saying that a series of pictures and some comments under those pictures are probably they. They, were not up long or seen by many.
I am getting close to a name for the guy in the picture. If I find it, and law enforcement has not explicitly made him a person of interest in the media, I feel uncomfortable saying his name in connection to a crime. IF, however, I were to make an aside like: “Doesn’t this guy, in this picture, look a lot like the guy in the picture with the dead cats?” would it help or hinder your acceptance of that photo?
IF I could show you a screen grab of Tyler’s Myspace page that put him in the top 7 of his friends, and possibly even show you a picture of him with Tyler, would it help to tie him to Tyler?
Funny enough, Jason, while you were posting this I was examining two photos: the one w/two guys & cats, and the one of Tyler having cuffs removed (in court, red jumpsuit)…
In the “2 guys” pic, the one who’s face is obscured has visibly noticeable dark hair on his forearms; the Tyler pic (handcuffs) shows clearly that Tyler does not.
Whether Tyler knows either person depicted in the photo, who knows, but assuming anything there would be moving into “guilt by association” territory.
I would like to commend Evangeline for putting NavyCop in her place. She is a sadistic asshole. I worked with her in Kuwait. She would lay into people for no reason, and just parade her badge around like she owned the fucking place. What a dick. Evangeline, you tell NC where to go and how to get there. Straight to hell on a concorde jet. She had no reason to call you any kind of name and should just go fuck herself with a broom handle soaked in lye.
Wow Bucky. You seem to have some hostility issues. Maybe that’s why Navy Cop had to put your ass in it’s place? LOL
I don’t want to link to it, but anyone interested in Bucky’s strange take on “life” might want to go to the PYSIH story on Armin Meiwes thread and see this interesting post:
“I am disgusted with you people. Why do you find it necessary to pick on this poor man? Cannibalism is a LIFESTYLE. Just like Nudity, just Homosexuality. Lighten up and let him live as he pleases.”
Sorry Bucky. It’s gonna take a lot more evidence for most of us to believe that NC is the villain in your little scenario. Have a nice day. LOL
Mazzi, Bucky is just a disgruntled individual. I would love to give you some ammo if you like. Look up the sharpie bandit on myspace and I will let you in on a few things about Bucky…
Wait… what? The “sharpie bandit” search on Myspace comes up as some 29 year old guy in Michigan. He seems kind of edgy, and obnoxious but not particularly strange (it IS Myspace after all, lol). He sure doesn’t look like he would have been allowed in the military. Ever.
Am I missing something?
Yes, actually. You put “sharpie bandit”. Put “the sharpie bandit”. That’s all I can say. I’m sworn to secrecy.
I think Bucky is one of NavyCop’s co-workers and buddies who looked over her shoulder a few days ago and laughed with her. He’s coming to the site to jerk Navy’s chain and make inappropriate jokes.
He reminds me of one of my friends who is a Marine….
Nope. I know who this individual is. Someone who pissed me off by tossing my ass under the bus in the Middle East.
Then repeat after me and direct it at Bucky.
Bucky, I do not want your attention, harassment or to have a confrontation with you on this website. Please refrain from referring to me, attempting to contact me, attempting to engage others in harassment, confrontation or communication or in slowing the access and function of this website.
Thank you for your understanding in this matter, and feel free to use this site in a manner consistent with the contents of the disclaimer, will and intent of its owners and not as an avenue for further harassment.
Hey Bucky— What Jason said.
Jason– I’ll direct you to the same place as I directed Mazzi. I have an explanation for Bucky’s behavior that you may find interesting.
Bucky, which of the three s’s are you: slow, simple, or fucking stupid?
OH! OH! OH!!!!! Can I play this game?
I guess… Bucky is all three?
Go me!
Talk to a professional, seek out real help (no sarcasm) or you will stay trapped in the nightmare for the rest of your life, and I don’t wish that on you, or anyone else.
To avoid any confusion, my comment (above) was intended for Bucky.
Navy – your “alter ego” has major issues!! lol I resubmit my advice to “Bucky,” with love – but for God’s sake ACT before Bucky gets the upper hand!! lol ;)
Damn it, DP! You outed me! Bucky is harmless, I was just screwing around when I was bored… Believe me, I only light into idiots that deserved it. But sometimes I just want to fuck with their heads :)
LMAO!! You are TOO FUNNY Navy, in a scary, not-sure-I’d-want-to-be-alone-in-the-same-room-with-you sort of way LOL!! (I was worried that maybe you were missing Evilgene)
Anyhow, no worries re: Bucky — he’s psycho enough to figure out a name change ;)
My post hasn’t been approved yet, but I found the translation for the photo caption.
neprežila means survived (Czech word adopted into Slovakian but not in any online Slovakian dictionary. Thank you Nils if you decide to drop by.)
ma?kovraha seems to be from contexts on Slovak dating and social sites to be a Slovak slang word for picture or maybe even a digital photo. Sometimes they put the word in front of the word foto and sometimes they put the word after their words for cell phone and camera.
Poslem Mackovraha
seems to mean send pictures from your cell phone when it’s used.
(I do not know Slovakian and Nils only speaks enough to drink in bars.)
Neither this kitten neprežila sadistic attack by malicious ma?kovraha
A better translation might be:
This kitten pictured here, could not survive the sadistic attack by the malicious man.
ma?kovraha might be boy or man, murderer and also slang for picture…
Najmenej tri tucty Floridských ma?iek sa stali obe?ami sadistického ma?kovraha v Miami. ?udia si svojich štvornohých milá?ikov museli pozorne stráži? a striehli na každého, kto by im mohol ublíži?. Dnes si už môžu vydýchnu?. Polícia v Miami surového ma?kovarha chytila. Je ním iba 18-ro?ný Tyler Weinman!
Translation:
At least three dozen Florida cats are the victims of sadistic ma?kovraha in Miami. People have their four-legged friend had to carefully guard and striehli to anyone who may harm them. Today, you can now exhale. Police in Miami raw ma?kovarha seized. This is the only 18-year Tyler Weinman!
Obyvatelia Miami tipovali, že zákerným zabijakom môže by? túlavý zúriaci pittbull. Iní tvrdili, že ma?i?ky má na svedomí ?lovek: „Vyšli sme von a našli našu Sarah leža? m?tvu na zemi. Najprv sme si mysleli, že ju zrazilo auto, ale teraz je nám jasné, že ju zavraždil nejaký sadista,“ opísala nedávnu boles? majite?ka ma?ky Alicia Glazer.
?alší majitelia, ktorí našli svojich milá?ikov m?tvych hovorili o tom, že mali vytrhané zuby a niektorým dokonca chýbala polovica tváre. „Nikde nebola krv. Máme asi do?inenia s niekým, kto presne vie, ?o robí.“ Odmena za dolapenie zákerného ma?kovraha sa vyšplhala na 15 000 dolárov. ?i ju niekto získal, polícia zatia? neuviedla.
Translation:
Residents Miami tipovali that malicious killer may be wandering savage pittbull. Others argued that the kitten has to do a man: “We went out and found our Sarah lie dead on the ground. At first we thought that it was hit by a car, but it is now clear to us that it killed a sadist, “described the recent pain cat owner Alicia Glazer. Other owners who find their pets, the dead said that the mali vytrhané teeth and some even lacked half the face. “Nowhere was the blood. We have about do?inenia someone who knows exactly what it was doing. “The fine dolapenie malicious ma?kovraha climbed to 15 000 dollars. Whether it is someone won, the police did not yet.
The message is much the same, but they provide better pictures. Pictures for some unexplained reason our media refuses to show.
(sorry Jason – saw this after posting a translation, w/my comments, above)
I’ve been following this thread with much consternation over the last couple of weeks, because I believe that some people, in their eagerness to prove their point, have kind of lost their way on a few issues. I’ve finally decided that it’s time for me to point out a few things that I find to be true. Whether or not any of you will find them useful isn’t up to me. I can only say what I know and leave the results to fate.
I think the news media has lost much of its credibility for a couple of reasons. The biggest one is that they forgot that their job is to report the news – nothing more. There is no place for personal opinions, slanting a story towards one side of the issue or the other, and being known as a “liberal” or “conservative” news source. The second reason is our reliance on people like Kieth Oberman, Glenn Beck, Bill O’Reilly, etc, etc…. as news sources. These people gave up their right to be called journalists a long time ago, the first time they decided that they were going to present every story they covered with either a left wing (Oberman), right wing (Beck) or just plain personal (O’Reilly) slant. If one wants to hear how shitty a job President Obama is doing, all one has to do is listen to Rush Limbaugh and you’ll get all the evidence you need to convince yourself this is true. Hell, we have whole networks dedicated to either the left or the right. We have given up our ability to decide for ourselves and instead rely on a parade of talking heads to do it for us – to tell us what we want to hear about a particular issue – and God help anyone with an open mind who tries to tell us anything different. That son of a bitch must be from the other side.
Now we have this case. I’ve heard a lot of theories thrown around. Someone even compared what’s happening to Tyler Weinman to what happened to the Duke LaCrosse players – I think that’s a bit of a stretch, since their was obvious misconduct by District Attorney Nifong in the Duke case (The guy hid DNA evidence proving the kids’ innocence – what a scumbag), and there’s been absolutely no inkling that anything of the sort is going on with Weinman, other than accusations that are coming from his lawyer. I’d also like to point out to those detractors of the media that it was print reporters who first began to question Nifong’s motivation for pressing the prosecution of the Duke kids. Newspapers and magazines really are the last bastion of serious journalism left in this country – but you have to seek it out, because it’s not in the obvious places, like the New York Times or Newsweek. It’s in the dozens of local paper and lesser known magazines that you’ll find the real gems.
Whether Tyler Weinman is our guy isn’t the question here – the question is how far are you willing to go to be right? Are you going to drink the “Tyler is guilty” kool-aid, or the “Tyler is innocent” kool-aid, and become a ranting idiot, or are you going to go and search out the truth? Maybe that means waiting for the trial, or maybe that means doing what Jason just did and going to the foreign press. If you find evidence that shows you’ve been backing the wrong side, are you honest enough to admit it to yourself?
Sometimes it’s best to take a break, step back and re-evaluate your position, because I know for myself, it’s easy to get tunnel vision about a particular point of view, to the exclusion of all others. I don’t know, maybe I didn’t say anything that made any sense here, but I’ really felt the need to say it. Let the flaming begin…LoL.
I still think Tyler did it, but I think he deserves a fair trial. I think and do not know that the other two suspects may not currently be in the state of Florida or even the United States. It is the summer time, and they may be “enjoying an extended vacation” elsewhere while negotiations for their surrender continue. I have nothing to back the last statement up. Zero. Zilch. Nada.
I do not think the two photos are slam dunks. I do not know if the second picture is actually from the case, I only believe it is related based upon the caption and the article it is associated with. I do think the 1st photo is pretty damning in the court of public opinion of 2 of the suspects, and one of them is Tyler.
I think it’s Tyler in the first picture(his face is partially obscured). I have a third picture that I’m not certain if it is related that I held back at the last minute. It’s of a gray cat with a hole in its side. I did confirm that one picture going around the internet of a long haired dead cat is not related to the Tyler case.
I respect law enforcement. I think this ASA is a bad egg, but I think this case is being handled in a mostly legal manner. I think more evidence is going to come out at 4:00 PM today or 4:00 PM tomorrow. I think the press was gagged on this and no one fed me bread crumbs, they simply told me nothing, which was uncharacteristic of them.
The foreign press has no extra words or verbiage, they simply have the photos and captions for some of them. I used iGoogle and Nils to translate what I could, and googled social sites in Slovakian to try and translate the words I could not understand or find definitions for. I’m betting I’m wrong on many of them.
I was wrong on the Nebbia case, Mazzi was right. I think I’m still right on some of the contents of that case. I don’t think DP needs to be roasted on an open flame by Claude and Evangeline if she has to eat crow on this, and she doesn’t have to eat crow yet. Tyler may have actually only been the logistics man in this particular arrangement. He may not actually be the Sociopath. He might be a borderline personality.
“I don’t think DP needs to be roasted on an open flame by Claude and Evangeline if she has to eat crow on this, and she doesn’t have to eat crow yet.”
Jason, you guys don’t know me well enough yet, but I really only care about the “facts” and ensuring that anyone accused gets a fair shake, that until found to be “in fact” guilty, he/she should not be pilloried in the press. I get angry over what I perceive as a media that seems all together more interested in “sales” than in facts and is more than willing to suck up to elected officials (who they should actually being examining more carefully) for continued “access” than in discovering the “truth.”
As to LE, I do think there is more of an “us VS them” mentality than what used to be (LE on one side, the rest of us ‘potential criminals” on the other), but I’m also aware, from personal relationships, that there remain some principled men/women of integrity in LE. I do not fault them for ‘doing their job’ (unless lying is involved) and in this particular case I think there was enormous pressure on placed on LE to catch a “cat serial killer,” (not unlike in the many other cases I continually reference), once convinced a person is responsible, its all about catching him…
In the 2 communities (Cutler Bay, Palmetto Bay), each mayor handled the situation quite differently. Mayor Flinn inserted himself in a big way, into the investigation, had a web page devoted to updates on the case, and showcased ANY story that highlighted his own involvement. Elected officials far too often direct how an investigation should be handled, they put tremendous pressure on LE to make themselves (the official) look good, and its human nature when under such pressure to sometimes overlook a question or two. I think once LE weds itself to a theory, it is natural to find pieces to “fit,” not unlike any of us do.
In any case, that’s where I’m coming from and whatever happens here makes no difference to me personally as long as the actual facts are allowed to come out.
Max – you are the bastion of sanity, lol.
The only thing I take exception to in all of your comments is the part about Nifong. Until the very end – at the point that the evidence proved the boys didn’t do it, Nifong was seen to be unimpeachable. That was half the problem – in order to believe that the boys were innocent, one had to believe that Nifong was corrupt. And to believe Nifong was corrupt, required a certain cynicism and a shattering of what we expect from the people we trust. It is only with 20/20 hindsight that everyone can see that Nifong was dirty – until there was irrefutable proof of that dirtiness, he HAD to be seen as clean.
I did not think that there were actual shenanigans going on in Tylers case. I just had some concern about the evidence from the beginning. The evidence seemed weak. That’s not necessarily the same as “manufactured” but to me, that indicates a rush-to-judgment, probably based on the pressures from the media. Not all rushes-to-judgment are wrong, of course, but it increases the chances.
Then we got the very vocal Tyler supporters. Now, vocal supporters don’t normally influence me much when they are saying things like “he’s my friend, STFU”, but these supporters were saying “NO! Tyler couldn’t have done it.” “He DIIDN’T do it.” and “I know this guy – he is not the TYPE to do it”. Again – who knows? No one can get inside another person’s head, but certainly having a shit ton of people who say that LE got the wrong guy, needs to be considered.
Then the arrest affidavit was released. It was still very “light” on evidence. So, I started thinking about how the FACTUAL part of the evidence (not whether some LE shrink thinks that the unknown killer is a psychopath, but the dates and times and that kind of thing) and I found that there COULD indeed be explanations for Tyler’s known actions. Not that there ARE explanations, but that there could be.
I still have no clue whether Tyler is guilty. I am pretty certain that he will get off if there is no more hard evidence and a Judge handles the case. I think it’s 50/50 if there is a jury trial, because the jury pool has been potentially poisoned by the media.
I apologize for the drama that has gone on in this thread. I felt that it was wrong for people to stalk another poster here and slam them, especially when the other poster was willing to play by the rules. I have a bad habit (or good habit, perhaps?) of jumping in to call foul when I see it – even if it makes me the target of the wrath. I just don’t like unfairness, and some of these internet trolls play really dirty. After years of being married to a passive-aggressive guy, I know how to defend myself against them, so I don’t hesitate to jump in to protect someone else. This particular troll was more stubborn than most, so I do feel bad about the hijacking of the thread. (It didn’t help that the troll uses “smirks” to determine guilt or innocence, either.)
Side note to Jason – stop apologizing for Nebbia – taking a reasonable guess and being wrong is not a crime. If it was, I would be on death row =P
Love you guys.
Too funny that we wrote almost the same thing re: Nifong, down to the “20/20? lol
(I hope that Max has noticed that intelligent debate has returned to this thread…)
Hehe – yes I did. Claude and evangeline were pretty funny, if it wasn’t for their personal attacks on anyone who disagreed with them. They obviously drank the kool-aid by the gallon and lost their minds.
Jason and I believe a lot of the same things I think. I believe 99% of Law enforcement is honest, hardworking, and only interested in getting the guilty party, not just clearing the case. That said, all you have to do is look at the Innocence Project going on in Dallas and see how badly things can go when LE stops caring. Of the first 50 cases they looked at, nearly 60% of the men who had been convicted were cleared by DNA. 60 fucking percent! We need people like you and Mazzi to question what might seem obvious to many of us, because I’m sure that before the cops and the DA stopped caring about getting the right guy, WE stopped caring.
BTW Maz, I hope you know I wasn’t taking a shot at you when I said I thought comparing this case to the Duke case was a stretch. I thought long and hard about whether or not to include that in what I wrote, but in the end, I knew it was something I needed to say. I didn’t receive a revelation from Jesus or anything, it was just my humble opinion. We’re good enough friends that we can kick it like that anyways.
“…because I’m sure that before the cops and the DA stopped caring about getting the right guy, WE stopped caring.”
Wow, Max… you are so right.
(High honor to be put in the same category w/Mazzi. Thank you.)
Max – I didn’t see it as a “shot”. In fact I wasn’t 100% sure you meant me, lol. (I guess you did!)
My only point in bringing up Nifong (and Kevin Fox’s case) are to illustrate that sometimes our people in positions of authority get carried away (drunk on personal power). I, like you, believe that the majority of LE are good, honest people, and I tend to give them the benefit of the doubt. But, after being exposed to too many cases where LE does not live up to the trust we place in them, I tend to be more cynical. So when something starts to look a little hinky, my bullshit detector starts flashing red lights.
Think about it from a human nature perspective. If someone had such a big opportunity drop in their lap, how would they handle it? I know that I couldn’t railroad a suspect, but I am pretty sure that the idea would cross my mind, even if it was just to be sure I DIDN’T accidentally railroad someone.
But consider this, lets say you are an experienced LE person, and you have a “hunch” that the suspect is guilty. You know that the fink did something, and you figure that with a little clever manipulation, you can make him pay his dues. How hard might it be to NOT skate over some rules, or not make assumptions? It would pretty hard.
So, full circle back to Nifong. I do not, for one second, believe that he intended to PERsecute those boys. I believe in my heart that he did what he thought was right – in the beginning. Once it turned out he was wrong, he had to make the choice – sacrifice himself, or the boys. He made the wrong choice, of course. But I wouldn’t hazard a guess as to how many people, in the same position, would not make the same choice.
Sometimes, the people in power are exactly the people who shouldn’t be in power. It’s scary to think about it, but the very people who are willing to claw other people’s eyes out to get that power, are often the ones with the least integrity, and thus the least suited to hold it.
Back to Tyler’s case. We know that ADA von Zamft has questionable ethics. It has been proven. So, knowing that, does it affect how much leeway we should give him when deciding how trustworthy he is, and then, how trustworthy his information is?
I am hoping that von Zamft is 100% aboveboard, but once bitten, twice shy. I can’t give him the same level of credibility that I would have had he not has a history of unethical behavior.
“Hehe – yes I did. Claude and evangeline were pretty funny, if it wasn’t for their personal attacks on anyone who disagreed with them.”
Sorry, but i dont personally attack anyone who doesnt personally attack me first. DP has brought her problems all on herself everywhere she goes. Its not everyone else with the problem. Its her. Again, i dont personally attack anyone who hasnt done it to me first. Im simply to mellow for that sort of thing. But hey, dont let the real truth get in the way of your version of it. ;-)
Clod – “… i dont personally attack anyone who hasnt done it to me first.”
Sorry, but your very first post on this thread shows you for the liar you are: claude says: July 13, 2009 at 12:15 pm (you came out swinging accusations and insults, and I’ve called you on it, asking you to back up your claims… One more example of “… can dish it out but can’t take it, I suppose. Silly.
BTW: With Evilgene on vacation, the discussion has been deep, intelligent, and “on topic,” that is, until your post today.
So you’ve said Claude, but it’s funny how we’ve seen none of the behavior that brought all those problems onto herself (DP) here. In fact, the only people who’ve had conflicts in this thread have been you and evangeline. Perhaps you’re the one who’s brought it all on YOURself. But hey, don’t let my take on things get in the way of your version of the truth. I like DP – I don’t agree with her at all, but I like her.
I like you too, Max, but “…not at all?” Hopefully you mean as to guilt or innocence in this case?
Oh yes DP, exclusively.
Oh, good. Thanks, Max. ;)
Max, I agree with what you have written here, especially on the left/right talking heads “discerning news” for us… we do not need media to tell us what to think – just tell us the boring “FACTS” (nothing more, save your opinions, your sensationalism), we are more than able to reach our own conclusions… may take us longer and they may not be the “approved” opinions,” nevertheless we will arrive at them in our own independent way. (as new “facts” arise, we are able to take account of them and adjust our views accordingly).
As to journalism in general; I give points to places like PYSIH, independent journalists, people motivated by natural questions which arise in any story and are willing to dig deeper – to meticulously discern speculation VS fact (and sometimes there are very few ‘facts’ at the beginning of a story, even though the story appears to have a lot of them). I’m not including PYSIH to ‘blow smoke,’ but because here (even though some are truly “nuts”) the majority is willing to debate, to question, to follow a theory to a conclusion, to consider other points of view, etc., all of which encourages discovery of what “really happened,” and infuses *reason.*
As to the Nifong situation not being applicable, for the valid reasons you have stated, all I can say Max, is that hind sight is …
At the time the Duke cases were ongoing, media carried the stories as if they were gospel, the majority was whipped into an emotional frenzy over “how sick these guys are!” — (disgusting demonstrations took place outside the ‘scene of the crime’ complete w/’protestors’ carrying signs calling for castration, etc.).
Perhaps the media helped expose Nifong for the conniving, ambitious liar he was, but I tend to think that the media’s role was more of a ‘shifting of alliances,’… defense attorneys were adamantly digging and were batting back on the stories that surfaced, etc. and the media eventually saw a new angle, but not until the young men had been made to suffer untold injustices.
We agree that independent reporting is more likely to glean facts, and I reiterate: at PYSIH, we are free to discuss what “we have” and to participate in open discussion. More of this is needed.
I followed the Duke case intently, and took a lot of heat, because I took a side early on. I felt that the guys weren’t guilty from the very beginning.
I remember, the day after the initial report, I was sitting with a group of friends in a Ruby Tuesdays when CNN began scrolling some info at the bottom of their screen. The scrolling info was about an EMail from the other stripper “witness” that made it clear that the story was faked, but that she would lie for a price. That was my first indication that something was “off”, and I stopped the conversation at the table to comment on it. Interestingly, that tidbit of information never really came up again on any news station or in the papers.
However, we were soon treated to the “victim’s” past history of falsely claiming rapes, her constantly changing story, and the refusal of the DA to listen to the boys – to the point that they had to call their own press conferences and then got attacked for doing so…. ad nauseum.
Max, you may have not followed it as closely, but trust me when I say that the media had NO part in clearing the boy’s names. It was 100% on the part of the defense attorneys, which luckily the boys were able to afford. Had they been stuck with a PD, they would all be in jail now. The media only jumped on board when the defense turned up irrefutable evidence. (When I say “media” I am not referring to isolated journalists, but the industry en masse.) For the most part, the media was as vicious as any of the trolls we see here on PYSIH, but much more sophisticated about it. The few voices of dissent were ridiculed – called racists and elitists, and everything else you can imagine. (Trust me, I was also called it all, lol.) After the fact, very few people publicly apologized, either.
Even thought I thought the boys were innocent, I had a hard time believing there was an LE conspiracy against them. I thought that LE was trying SO hard to be “just” to the “minority” that they leaned way too far in the other direction. So I was, in many ways, as shocked as anyone when the truth was exposed. Not about their innocence, but about what Nifong did.
Anyway, DP – I think we are on the same page here. I don’t care on many levels if Tyler is guilty or not. I just want to know that he gets treated fairly under the law. Which is exactly what I want for all suspects.
Mazzi, “I just want to know that he gets treated fairly under the law. Which is exactly what I want for all suspects.”
My thoughts, exactly.
What concerns me the most, in these cases that gain “national notoriety,” is the seeming “collusion” between media and state.
The questions that must be asked are avoided at all costs in order to protect “access” to officials, the media’s sole interest is ratings; the officials know this and have an enormously powerful tool to add to their arsenal against the accused. The entire thing is weighted in favor of the State and, unless someone dares to quiet the “noise” and make the effort to distinguish between what “potentially might be” and what “actually is” — a person accused does not stand a chance. (I am speaking in general terms, not to one case.)
Once the ‘checks and balances’ role of media disappears, we all face the risk of being railroaded by the justice system.
Actually Maz, I did follow the Duke case closely, and I was one of the few, like you, who smelled a rat from the start. My wife is a major jock, so ESPN is on as background noise a lot of the time, and she and I took an interest in what was going on. I don’t think it hurt that ESPN has some very good sports journalists, like Mike Wilbond and Tony Kornheiser, who also took the high road during the entire incident, and refused to pass judgment on the three boys based on a few news reports. They were voices of sanity in a roomful of shouting idiots, and it rubbed off on me.
Mike Nifong really underestimated the people of Durham. Although the case did help him to win his primary, it never turned into some racial thing, with Blacks on one side and Whites on the other. It seemed that people understood what he did was so despicable that they had to join together against the real enemy.
Max, “…they had to join together against the real enemy.”
But not until it was announced and by that point, well, we can only imagine the nightmare the accused(s), their girlfriends, families, the school, the team, were forced to endure until the truth at last came out. How many are sitting in prison still waiting? (the 60% you quoted earlier…?)
Too many stories of police abuse, unethical DA’s…. I’m not saying “all,” not by any means (else the news of ‘corruption’ wouldn’t shock us, as it does), but the fact is we are hearing more and more stories like this because media jumps on the bandwagon and fails to question the authorities, up front, as they should.
(sorry for inserting my two-cents here, when you were addressing Mazzi, Max)
G’nite all.
The specific information is a bread crumb trail. The deleted Myspace account is stored on the deadkids of myspace.
I’m going to try something with a few photos of Tyler and this one to see if I can get what’s needed to change the rock solid opinion you have of it. Do you know about Photoshop action scripts and have access to photoshop? If I were to provide an instruction list that let you move through each step of the process and see exactly what I did(ie, you start with the same base photo and then follow the script I attach) would you be able to follow along?(as in do you own the software?
Just spotted this post of yours, Jason – sorry.
I am familiar w/photoshop (don’t own it, have played with it enough to know what you’re talking about) but here’s the thing: ANY photo can be sufficiently altered as to represent something which it is not. Do I think it possible to “morph” a pic of Tyler into the “obscured” guy in the pic? Sure, could be done w/relative ease. Doesn’t mean that the original pic IS a pic of Tyler though. (understand that although it “might” be, for the reasons stated I do not believe it is)
Morning all =) I was looking for some report of what happened in yesterday’s hearing (I couldn’t find anything) but I came across this in the Orlando Sentinel, from 7/29, in the story “cat killer gave partial confession”…
In his interview… that night, he showed off scratches he claimed were from a stray cat he had fed. He told the police: “If you drop the marijuana charges, I’ll tell you about the cats,” … How the interview unfolded from there is not documented in court filings. Weinman was charged with marijuana possession.
What? WHAT? Are you going to tell me that Tyler somehow “offered” a confession for a pot charge, and he didn’t get it? WHAT? I call shenanigans!! That has GOT to be bullshit, just using common sense. Max – you watch “First 48″… can you believe that this is possible?
I am not even talking about the fact that THREE experienced detectives couldn’t crack the kid (who was apparently talking, at least to a point), I am just saying that the pot charge would never even have been considered unless they cops really had nothing on him. But speaking of that – even a novice interrogator could get a confession from him, had he really said that. Something like this:
Interrogator: Tyler, we HAVE your admission that you did something to the cats… remember? You told us about it…
Tyler: Uhhh.. nooo.. I didn’t, I never…
Int: Yes Tyler, you said it.. we have it on record… we are going to charge you with cat murder…
Int: Tyler… … Buddy… I know you are hurting inside… I know you don’t know why you did it…. but if you want leniency, you need to come clean… This is your only chance…
Tyler: YES! I did it!!! It was an accident. I was on drugs! It was supposed to be a joke… (whatever)
Int: I’ll be right back
Right? I mean, come ON. This is simple! And this was NOT the point where he supposedly invoked.
Something is starting to smell like an old can of cat food here.
Mazzi — PRECISELY! (yes, yes, yes!!!)
Search for the ‘nebbia’ portion of this thread, and look at the case info I posted; @ August 4, 2009 at 1:09 pm — what do you think?
If Tyler felt the drug charge was more significant that the combined weight of the cat mutilations, improper disposals and burglary charges, why wouldn’t it be reasonable for him to offer a deal?
A confession for the marijuana will earn him 3 months or less. A confession for the cat mutilations will get him (my estimate because I think the 148 years is bunk) around 3 years. The lack of the recorder is moronic and I’ll concede suspicious.
David Ovalle (Miami Herald), who first floated this story of a “partial confession” a few days ago, does not strike me as a particularly thorough reporter, yet he was led to a court document, one which was not even found worthy to be included in the affidavit, and ‘broke’ this alleged news? Why?
MD is realizing they screwed up on this, they enjoyed the press’ help until it grew out of hand and the story became larger than life. The added attention on LE/DA now is causing more pressure than the initial “cat serial killer on the loose” caused them. (“We’re f***d” -Nifong). How did Nifong handle it: Shift the focus, now!!
cont. next
The problem is with how ridiculous the “partial confession” story is:
A young man, no doubt intimidated, (outnumbered by police officers, being questioned at the police department, by LE who may or may not have planted pot in his car), manages to survive all of this without confessing to anything!? (the guilty realize their predicament relatively quickly and are the first to invoke their right to an attorney…) We are supposed to believe [call me a cynic] that mid-sentence, Tyler “invoked,” when we KNOW that he waived his rights on the 13th and talk to them for 8 hours?!! (cont. next)
The alleged quotes from Tyler in the “partial” are transparently out of context (i.e. incomplete sentences; selectively chosen words lacking any real meaning without the actual questions and the FULL responses). (I can’t post a full comment again…?) TBC…
The fact that this “surfaced” is suspect all by itself. Looks like a power play from a bunch of guys who – after their best efforts – were UNABLE to get Tyler to confess to anything. Sleazy tactics. Not looking good. [end]
Search YouTube for: “don’t talk to police” — a brilliant lecture (approx 46 mins), a real eye-opener! (James Duane, Professor; Regent University School of Law)
My parents were both lawyers, and it was drummed into my head – if I was ever questioned, for ANYTHING, shut up and get my lawyer. Period. No matter how guilty or innocent I might be, do not talk to the police under any circumstances. Interestingly, my parents still managed to instill a lot of respect for authority into me.
My dad used to say that nothing you say can be unsaid, and anything you say can be used against you.
Some people see it as “suspicious” but when you have a lot of contact with attorneys, you can’t help but hear this ad nauseum. It’s the one piece of free advice any lawyer will give out to anyone, lol.
I too have tremendous respect for authority, but having respect and waiving your rights are two different things. Too often (MOST of the time) innocent folks think that if they talk to LE they can help clear up any misunderstandings – wrong. If LE wants to “talk” to you it is only because they believe you are involved and they will pursue the “conversation” until they have what they believe to be “confirmation.” (I love how beautifully this is expressed in the video)
ANYTHING YOU SAY can and WILL BE USED AGAINST YOU IN A COURT OF LAW.
I think the Miami Herald is facing the same problem that all other news agencies in the area are facing.
They probably have this packet that says “do not touch until we tell you to.”
If they break out and show the picture I showed, they have to identify the other man in the picture or risk the lawsuit if there’s not enough evidence to convict him. I still believe it’s Tyler on the right, if you lighten the image up in photoshop, you can see the effect you’d get with the lighting change in the courthouse(Bright Fluorescent lights).
Keep in mind, innocent until proven guilty, if you really want to apply it, should technically be applied to the law enforcement officers you’re accusing and convicting with your words with felonies. You get so frustrated because Tyler is being burned in effigy over this case, and then burn the officers as if they’re guilty of so many crimes?
We’ve got about 3 hours until my prediction should come true, and I’ve heard no inkling of a press conference yet. It will be a bit damning to them(and supportive of yours and Mazzi’s accusations) if they let this go to trial without something more substantial coming out.
Jason, cops are human beings, just like we are, but nowhere have I accused and condemned them of felonies. I have been careful to give them the benefit of the doubt, i.e. pressured by the mayor (Flinn), pressured by the DA’s office, etc. Under such conditions it would be difficult for anyone to remain objective, especially if you had already formed opinions about the suspect.
At this point, there is no evidence that LE has intentionally lied about anything; spun things to appear in a certain light, that’s a real possibility, not nefarious, pretty natural. I do think that the DA’s office, now presented w/the case(s) has an obligation to remain objective and not be seduced by news coverage of his office. I do think that it is possible that they now realize mistakes have been made and, again, it would be natural to swing things back in their favor. Am I being overly cynical? Do cops ever plant evidence? Do cops ever lie? Do prosecutors ever place their careers above the truth? Do human beings ever do these things? Of course, and there are multiple instances on record. Do all LE and all prosecutors fall into this trap? No, certainly not.
To the photo:
The obscured face still allows a good look at the man’s nose; flaired, pointed, wide… Both young men appear to be in their twenties, both have facial features that appear to be South American (handsome Brazilians?). The forearm hair on the one suggested to be Tyler is too heavy to “disappear” in the court pic of Tyler, if anything, in brighter light it should appear more obvious. (not arguing w/ what can be done w/PhotoShop, this is just my opinion)
Would like to ask Mazzi to take a look at the pic…it’s not as awful as you think, Mazzi, and a 3rd opinion would be helpful.
I am not sure that is possible Jason. The courts have ruled that media may publish anything that is “newsworthy” without fear of repercussion. That definition of “newsworthy” is insanely broad, basically meaning anything that the viewers would find newsworthy – ie: everything?
And, the media has consistently, particularly over the past 15+ years, taken that to heart. It is rare that any media source will not run with any story they can get – true or not – if it’s juicy and a scoop – be it Sarah Palin’s personal emails, or stories that jeopardize national security. They refuse to shut up no matter who might be harmed by the information. Even if it’s a virtual instruction book to terrorists on how to blow up a federal building (as just happened a few weeks ago).
So, I don’t think there is such a packet. The cops would have to be morons to trust the media, and the media would never sit on anything like that.
I will look at the pictures if someone can modify them to take the cats out. I’ll send you my email through your blog if you want to do that.
Okay Mazzi – I cropped it. Send your email (through blog, as suggested) and I’ll get it to you.
Mazzi, have posted to FB (Georgia View – wall post)
Thanks for the cleaned up copies =)
All I can say for sure is that the guy on the right “resembles” Tyler at first glance, but the nose seems wrong. The unknown guy has what I would call a beaky, or sharp looking nose. Tyler’s nose seems more balanced and there is a picture that shows he has a bit of a bump on the bridge. But I could only find 4 or 5 pics of Tyler and only one is angled enough to get any sense of it.
I couldn’t find any pics of Tyler that show his arms, but that would absolutely be the best way to determine for sure. Unknown guy is definitely hirsute. I would assume that LE was looking for a matching Tshirt – I couldn’t tell what was written on it, but I wonder if it’s English? If it’s not English, then the chances of it being Tyler diminish greatly.
If it’s Tyler it’s damning, for sure. But I wouldn’t lay odds on it being him.
I just found the “google-eyed” picture of Tyler, with his forearm showing, and it does NOT appear to be a gorilla arm. There was another picture of him apparently at a picnic or something, which also showed his arms, and his arms did not look hairy there either.
BUT – honestly, without a closeup of his arms, I am not will to say for sure. I am sure that LE has already observed his arms and his nose and if THEY say it’s him, I am willing to concede (at least preliminarily). But they haven’t said it’s him, so my guess is it’s not him.
Whether this picture was on his facebook/myspace or not – again.. it’s hard to say. Common sense tells me that if it was, someone would have found an archived copy of it and the entire page copy would be circling the internet, not just a random picture.
At this point, I would say that this picture is of zero value one way or another, until more context and specifics are known.
But, whoever those guys ARE, they need to be found and punished. That picture is pretty conclusive evidence that those two guys are sick cat-murdering freaks. Whether one is Tyler or not.
How the hell could anyone harm those beautiful creatures? It makes me sick to think of schools using cats for dissection, but it makes me EVIL to think anyone could hurt them for kicks.
My daughter just told me that her high school used cats and SHARKS for dissection. I remember barfing in 6th grade when we had to dissect earthworms, I would have been catatonic (no pun intended) had it been a cat. Actually – why CATS anyway? I mean, how can they use what half the students have as a pet? Why not use an armadillo, or a possum or something? Something that the students are not going to identify with as a fucking family member.
Mazzi- sent close up pic through email (w/some others)
I know that there are reasons to use cats, for some of the similarities with us, but why they wouldn’t do “virtual” dissections in this day, who knows.
Oh and, ditto on the two, pictured w/cats, needing to be punished. (again, see email for my son’s reaction).
The arguments I’ve seen for school dissections of cats is that the fetal pig isn’t a predator, and few mammalian predators are small enough to be dissected in class. I don’t think it should be undertaken outside of the Vet School level, given that even the Army Rangers use Goats, as the closest human analogs for their Medical training graduation exercise. I don’t see the giant focus on mammalian predator anatomy. Additionally, some people can handle dissection abstractions, and some people shouldn’t be forced to.
On the pictures, I’ll try and come back to the argument this way. I’m not hirsute, but I have hair on the backs of my arms. In dark light it will be clear and defined. Under fluorescent lamps or even bright sunlight, my arms look almost smooth.
Additionally, after several months of sun, my dark arm hair from winter is bleached. It’s bleached now. Come November, it will be dark again. If this picture were taken in March, approximately 41 days after Tyler met his then 19 year old friend at a party, and his friend was the one who introduced him to killing cats, the change in character might be a bit “explainable.”
My current theory is not that Tyler is a Sociopath, but that he’s a borderline personality who joined a crowd with at least one Sociopath in it.
To the flaring of the nostrils and sharpened nose, notice he’s laughing at the spectacle. Flare your own nose while you look in a mirror. Your nose sharpens. Now try to laugh with your mouth open and down. Your nose will sharpen and your nostrils will flare.
Jason, sometimes you sound as though you are theorizing (and have said as much), other times you include detailed information like this, “If this picture were taken in March, approximately 41 days after Tyler met his then 19 year old friend at a party..” and I’m left to wonder, which is it… are you getting information from inside the investigation, or are you speculating? (no offense intended, I’m honestly trying to get a handle on this)
I do not have a friend inside the investigation or SA’s office. I do have several friends who are journalists and one of them who will not speculate who normally would be spilling her guts who lives and works in Florida. My other two journalist friends also know her and offered theories for why she would not comment and I’ve shared some insight into those theories–she has never confirmed any of this.
I’m researching this picture, and think I know who is in it. I think I know when he met Tyler for the first time based on a comment he made to Tyler in early February. His age and his vital stats and even where he is right now are available online, but if it isn’t him, then I’m just wrong. Just like you, I’m researching small little leads, extrapolating and looking for speculative answers. I spent a lot of time looking at foreign press and asked for advice from two other local journalists(friends of the friends above) here in North Carolina, and they both mentioned how some press releases work. The example they gave was the Michael Peterson case, where the timing of information was controlled carefully by Law Enforcement. Peterson’s former attorney is actually a friend of a friend (and incidentally a former King of Atlantia in the SCA, and I wanted to ask about his pattern of responses to the press as well, but I doubt he’d consider discussing the matter here). That’s where a lot of the theory for what might be happening behind the scenes comes from. Typically, protecting the interests of a source or lacking some sort of validation of information is the usual reason a reporter or a whole series of reporters will withhold comment on certain pieces of information.
I came to this site after Michael Gagnon killed my friend Bethany, 3 of her daughters and one of her step daughters in a fatal DUI car crash. At that time I cultivated contacts in the Ohio court system, legislature, press, and law enforcement as well as similar contacts here in Raleigh, based off of my existing friendships and acquaintances. That broad net and a group of friends and friend of friends and relatives in the Florida area is starting to help put together information in that area for this case, but most of it inadmissible, and just impressions and research. It’s pretty easy to find out who someone’s parents are, and you can use tools across the internet to determine how much money they donate in a given election cycle or even how much the last sale price of their house or houses might be. This is useful in determining the relative wealth of a given family. Going any further than this is stretching into a bad place and I do have both ethical and legal limits I won’t cross.
Anyway, I’m most disturbed that I can’t find the court records for this partial confession anywhere. If there’s court documents that were released, why can’t I find the originals somewhere?
Anyway, the long story is that I’m turning free cycles when I’m waiting for tests to finish or waiting for my brain to sort out what to do next on projects at work to write emails, ask questions and get frank opinions. I honestly think Tyler is in that picture and that the man next to him with the more damaged animal was at the time of the photo 19 years old and that the “party” where this was taken occurred in March. I think the person holding the camera is a part to all of this, and I think he might be someone Tyler was getting in trouble with at Palmetto High School, but that’s just my opinion, based on almost nothing but a hunch.
NONE of these are provable facts, nor am I stating that I KNOW any of this, none of this is admissible. It’s my right as a citizen to make my opinions known and where possible to reveal what makes me think this or that. That said, accusing someone of a crime is a very serious thing. A very bad thing for me if I’m wrong, and just one more land mine I feel like I’m heading towards, but dodging.
Again, I think Tyler is involved, an accomplice and responsible for at least one death if not directly responsible for 8 deaths. I don’t think he’s a sociopath, I think he’s a borderline personality and highly suggestive in certain relationships and circumstances. I think this explains why his behavior is out of the norm for him or what people who know him expected. I think it explains why he might be exhibiting sociopathic tendencies.
Sorry, translation: I’m talking about this with people I know and some I don’t know very well to make a more informed opinion and try and find a smoking gun.
I don’t know if this is one, but right now I believe it to be so.
Sounds like we are doing similar background, and motivated by similar ’causes.’ I’ve been on both sides of these issues; witnessing the abuse of a system hellbent on condemning someone (3 cases – personal knowledge) LE ‘thinks’ did (whatever) who were in fact innocent of the charges (and where IN FACT “probable cause’ had not even been met; as well as a current case where the accused committed the violent act (attempted murder), confessed, on scene, to it, entered a guilty plea, etc… and at his most recent hearing the “guilty’ was withdrawn in favor of ‘insanity.’ (we shall see)
So, we are passionate and we’ve learned to do our homework, but we have to be careful to state (and restate): the facts are not yet in, we are theorizing based on (this, or that). You’ve done that pretty consistently, but the specifics (March…41 days…@ the time 19 years old friend) bother me because they tend to create an impression that you have access to information that proves Tyler’s involvement. (not saying you’ve said this, just that the ‘specifics’ used give that impression, incorrectly.)
Last thought on the picture, Jason: I carefully consider each of your opposing arguments, some have caused me to cede a point here and there, however on this picture: I wholeheartedly disagree. I am confident that the obscured person in this pic is NOT Tyler. I have analyzed this photo in several ways, compared it to many known pics of Tyler, adjusted lighting, zoomed, etc… no way these are the same people.
Jason, I ordinarily take people who say “I know shit you dont” or “I have friends…” with a ROCK of salt, but you? I believe you based on what I know about you. (Ain’t reputation a swell thing??)
I am just as hopeful that your information is accurate as I am that my guesses are. I just want there to be SOMETHING conclusively pointing one way or another.
Any word on the hearing/press conference that has been dangling the last few days? There is dead silence in every source I have checked.
Obviously I don’t know Jason as well as you guys do, but the fact that he took the time to really help me formulate my arguments more effectively, well… that tells me all I need to know. ;)
The absolute lack of follow-up has me extremely discouraged.
A short snippet of an IM conversation from around 4 today.
Background info, this person predicted every major step for me in the Gagnon case like it was scripted. He told me months in advance what sort of plea and helped me look up cases on Rick Sanders early on. I don’t think he’s lying, just beginning to think he was initially mistaken or that there’s nothing conclusive. He’s been a journalist for 12 years and done crime beats the whole time including the Nifong case.
I’m messing with the picture, and I found the guy who looks a lot like the guy in the center of the picture using the dead myspace page to follow links to accounts. I’m going to step back to a more neutral position on this until something is published in a major journal. It just looked to me like things were coming to a head when they made the document announcement, but no one following this case seems to have the original court document quoted in the Miami Herald yet. From just cases handled on PYSIH that’s weird. Max, have you looked? Can you find it?
Jason, There is just one part of the “Tyler was an accomplice” idea that bugs me. Well, one, but with many facets….
If Tyler is just an accomplice, why and how could LE go after him the way that they did. How could they charge him with 19 murders/burglaries if he was only peripherally involved in a few? A smart investigator could have had Tyler singing and doing the 2-step in a few minutes if there was someone else more involved.
Anyway, if the leads that you are following are correct, the investigators had to have followed the same leads and come up with what? Nothing? We have a full-faced picture of a guy with bloody hands, and they would grab the one with an obscured face and different arms, and make their case on that?
Then, also, why would they have fed Tyler to the wolves? The only possible explanation in this scenario would because he refused to cooperate. And if he is being railroaded for refusing to talk, that’s as bad as being railroaded and being innocent.
The more we turn the earth in this case, the more worms are coming up. All of this has nothing to do with whether Tyler is guilty or innocent, but it sure as hell looks weird when an 18 year old kid is beating the cops, especially when the cops may have stacked the deck.
1. He was and is the one in reach. Probation for the drug charge that expelled him prevents him from traveling. It does not or did not stop the other two.
2. He was the one they could easily get warrants, wiretaps and tracking on.
3. He is the poorer of the three, his family doesn’t have as much money.
Those are my top level assumptions.
Those are all reasonable assumptions, but don’t they all seem wrong ?
If (and that’s still a big IF) Tyler played some role in killing cats, he should be punished for what HE did – not for everything that was done. He certainly should not be the one taking all the heat just because he is poorer than the others. THAT’S a slap in the face of our entire justice system. Likewise (although not as horrific) is that he would be grabbed because he was the easiest to grab. I mean, I understand why they would arrest him, if he is involved – but to call him a fucking sociopath? To destroy his damned LIFE, if he is not, in fact, solely responsible for killing and mutilating 19 cats?
If any of your possible scenarios are accurate, then it seems as if a really great injustice may be happening. He (and everyone) should be punished for what they have done, but we, as a society, don’t want to punish them for the things they haven’t. ESPECIALLY if any part of the decision had to do with how easy he was to catch, or what his/his parents finances are.
Now there are “3?” And the other 2 are inaccessible to LE – on an expensive vacation somewhere? – when did their vacation begin? How long have they been out of town? … So the 3 of them were dodging cops in the dark, working OT on cat patrol looking for a “cat serial killer” (because they believed a person or person MUST HAVE been killing these cats) and these 3 were so stealthy that NO ONE saw any of them? (was hard enough to believe when it was just one person who was allegedly dodging cops, community, etc)
Was he a minor when the “1st charge” occurred, which caused him to be expelled? If so, why is the knowledge being floated? By law, (and for several good reasons) – aren’t juvenile records supposed to be sealed?
With all the accusations which have been selectively floated – seems someone is trying very hard to damage Tyler’s defense and bolster their own claims (prior to a trial), and I wonder then why they wouldn’t also put out the results of the testing, in particular, the autopsy reports on the cats (cause and time of death)… Why, when so much else has been leaked/released would they be holding on to this information?
DuePRocess,
Let me be clear, you state these cases are probably animal attacks based off of cases 4 years ago and 1000 miles away. That’s a pattern to establish logical fact. I believe this picture to be genuine and part of this case. In the picture there are three people involved in the crime.
1. The dark, curly haired man I think is a 19 year-old college drop out who became friends with Tyler.
2. The man I think looks like Tyler
3. The person holding the phone.
Law enforcement does not appear to have been on site when this photo was taken where one or probably 2 cats were killed.
IF the picture is related to this case, then the picture disproves your logic and proves at least the peripheral involvement of 3 people. That’s where I get the number from.
As to Tyler’s juvenile record. In the State of Florida, like most states, your record is not automatically expunged and/or sealed at age 18. You apply for a seal or more specifically a certificate to seal your records. There are requirements. Being accused of another set of felonies, one of them identical to the one you just committed pushes the application of the seal into the far future.
I do not KNOW that the picture is of Tyler and his “friends,” but I believe it is reasonable to think so. I am disappointed that I cannot find the court documents that were cited by the MIami Herald. That lends credence to your charge and Mazzi’s charge of criminal mishandling of justice.
Mazzi,
Yes, I think charging one man more than others for these crimes, when he may be a less significant participant is wrong, but it’s happened before and successfully forced the man who was caught to turn in the man who was not yet caught. The Oklahoma City Bombing of the ATF building comes to mind. A traffic stop for a missing plate caught Timothy McVeigh and initially they burned him in the media until they managed to get Terry Nichols to turn himself in. Because they caught McVeigh, and because they could use Nichols against McVeigh, they successfully executed McVeigh, and Nichols serves merely consecutive life sentences.
Tyler if guilty of any of this is the most likely to suffer the worst incarceration and punishment, because the police captured him.
Jason, of course you are right. And even being a strict “fairness” advocate, I would agree that there are crimes that might warrant that kind of deception. But I am not sure, according to the law of the land, that animal cruelty charges (even 19 of them) would actually rise to the level that would excuse such a breach.
That kind of rule-bending should be reserved for cases of national security or perhaps even individual liberties (such as perhaps a kidnapping case, where finding the victim is crucial, or an attempted hit on an individual). Then, of course, by all means, use whatever tactics are necessary.
But putting it into perspective, no matter how much any of us love cats, they are not afforded legal rights, and though everyone agrees that pets are “more” than simple property, for all intents and purposes, they are still property.
I believe that LE was feeling intense pressure, and they wanted to get the media monkey off their back. Instead of taking the proper steps that they needed to to get the right guy, with the proper evidence, I think they rushed it. I think they BELIEVE Tyler is involved, and that they believed they could short-circuit the process by arresting him first and then finding the evidence later.
Unfortunately, I think they made some serious, grave errors – and now we have one of two situations: either Tyler is guilty but will walk, or Tyler is innocent and has had his life destroyed. There is a hybrid third possibility – Tyler is “somewhat guilty” but not of anything close to what he has been charged with, which means that he will walk AND has been unfairly smeared.
Sadly, the issue now is not whether Tyler is guilty or not, it’s much bigger. The question is, are we as a society, willing to allow our justice system to bend and break the laws of order, based on hunches and guesses? And, do we need to examine how much freedom the media has to destroy innocent lives?
The litmus test is easy. How would any of us feel if we (or a loved one) were innocent but the cops thought we were guilty? Right there. That explains it all. And that’s why we MUST demand (barring unusual cases) that the “T”s be crossed and the “I”s be dotted before we publicly destroy someone.
Jason, “…you [DP] state these cases are probably animal attacks based off of cases 4 years ago and 1000 miles away.” Absolutely not.
Allow me to be clear: I state the cases of alleged “cat mutilation” in South Florida are FAR more likely to be attributed to “wild/stray animal predation” because of the following reasons:
1. relying on Dr. Lockwood’s definition that cases “appearing to be” acts of human cruelty in which all that is recovered is the cat’s remains, discovered in a state that suggests “mutilation,” and where no sign of ‘human’ is found either on scene, or nearby: pathology testing must be completed PRIOR to proceeding because 90+% of such cases are attributable to “wild animal predation.”
2. cases in CO, UT, CA, KS, TX, FL (Lauderhill: nearby AND concurrent!), more cases can be found ongoing throughout the country today. (see FB Justice for Tyler, topic: current “cat mutilation” cases)
3. In ALL cases researched, EVERY community initially believed that a “cat serial killer” was on the loose, killing cats. LE was tasked to ‘find him,’ rewards were offered, multi-agency task forces initiated, criminal profilers called in, etc.
4. in all cases noted, once the pathology testing was completed: oops! “wild/stray animal predation”
5. in at least one of these cases: LE had ‘suspects’ (testing was completed before arrests were made, thank God)
6. in all cases the same TERMINOLOGY is used: “surgical precision,” “no blood on scene,” “POSED, AS IF TO TAUNT the owners,” “cat serial killer,” fear that person(s) would “move on to humans,” etc.
7. in all cases, just as Lockwood warns: no sign of human or humans on scene or nearby.
8. in all cases, it required PATHOLGISTS (autopsy) to determine cause of death — vets, animal control, LE often ASUMED human involvement (because of how the animals ‘looked’) and were proven to be incorrect by the testing.
9. in Miami-Dade: no sign of human presence on scene or nearby. (Lauderhill even speculated that they had a “copy cat killer” working in their community ['copying' the incidenta in MD], described their ‘kills’ the same way… Once the necropsies were complete? Oops: “animal predation” most likely dogs.
10. the morning of 6/13/09: MD animal control captured 2 pitbulls with deep facial scratch wounds (defensive wounds) – THEY stated that the dogs were ‘very aggressive, that they were responsible for AT LEAST 9 cat deaths (3 on the morning of the 12th, alone), and THEY stated that they hoped the communities would be able to start relaxing now that they HAD THESES TWO DOGS OFF THE STREETS.
11. Tyler Weinman —
a. known as “kind to animals,” observed over years, large circle of support continues
b. involved in community center, aquatics coaching, camp counselor (voted ‘most popular coach” by kids, had ‘odd jobs scheduled through summer,’ longtime girlfriend (who continues to support him as ‘innocent)’
c. in spite of enormous media coverage: no one has come forward to claim they have ever witnessed Tyler so much as shoot a squirrel, let alone act w/cruelty toward a cat. (if he had done anything remotely ‘weird’ around any animal – someone would have some forward w/it by now)
d. a ‘gram’ of pot does not make one a crazed drug head, if in fact this was Tyler’s (unethical LEOs; aware of a prior charge, looking for an excuse to haul a ‘bad guy’ in for questioning, needing something to apply pressure with, to use as leverage, to intimidate into ‘confessing,’ have been known to – on occasion – drop something, on scene. Did this happen in MD? I do not know. I hope not, but again patterns suggest outcomes: I am NOT accusing MDPD of having done anything untoward, I am stating verifiable fact: this happens).
Why did it require ‘several’ of MD’s finest to respond to a simple “traffic violation” on the 15th May? (see wording in affidavit)
Much has been made of this ‘drug use,’ but when measured against his involvement in the community, and the caliber of his friends, it begins to sound like overblown hyperbole.
Mazzi said,
“…are we as a society, willing to allow our justice system to bend and break the laws of order, based on hunches and guesses? And, do we need to examine how much freedom the media has to destroy innocent lives?
“… How would any of us feel if we (or a loved one) were innocent but the cops thought we were guilty? …we MUST demand (barring unusual cases) that the “T”s be crossed and the “I”s be dotted before we publicly destroy someone.”
—————————————————————————————–
Every freedom-loving American should agree with this summation!
I’ll take it a step further though and add: in NO case should should these laws be ‘set aside’ – not even under cover of ‘unusual circumstances’ – because once we as a people accept the notion that it is ‘sometimes’ okay to ‘do the wrong thing for the right reasons’ we will have taken the first step toward that slippery slope which is the foundation of every system that declares ‘the ends justify the means,’ a path, which if followed, leads irrevocably to a permanent loss of liberty.
1. you cite Lockwood’s book with a 2006 copyright. and the Denver attacks prolifically. Correct me if I’m wrong, you also cite a 2004 excerpt?
2. Colorado, which has the most explicit of the citations in your argument and the one that specifically uses the surgical statements you’ve continuously latched onto is the distance example.
3. In this case, law enforcement and the community initially thought it was animal attacks(see exhumation of cat in the original article), that breaks your model if you’re going to stress semantics and the parsing of words as the only support for your position.
4. Initial testing on 14 of the 33 cases proved wild animal or car. 19 remained linked to human involvement. We can go around and around this one.
5. Conceded
6. The same terms are based off a logical case example of actual serial killers. Not all cat mutilations are going to be animal.
7. I have finally finished Lockwood’s book, I urge you to read it before you continue to stress what amounts to about 8 references spread across about 20 pages of a very interesting tome. There’s support in this book for the exact opposite opinion, even lines about not discounting human involvement, but relying on testing. Use of the book is encouraged for shelter operators and the role of a Veterinarian in reporting and identifying abuse. In addition, your invocation is approaching the static I get when I challenge people on the “Judge not lest ye also be judged” passage of the bible. The book doesn’t say, ignore all evidence to the contrary and assume any surgical precision is animal made not man made or even that “only a pathologist can determine human involvement.” It says that without careful investigation the layman and the professional can get caught in assumptions not founded in good science. Armed with his methods, you can successfully determine human involvement in some if not many cases.
8. IF the picture is valid, that becomes entirely moot. I come from a position that states your discounting of the picture fails to consider or concede that IF Tyler is the one in the picture or the one holding the camera, cats were killed by humans and Law Enforcement has people to prosecute.
9. Conceded, if, however, the picture is valid, then the entire argument is moot.
10. No mention of how long they had been loose
11. a. Known also to have trouble with authority, a drug relationship that resulted in expulsions, and because of these character flaws a high school drop out with time, motive (confrontation with father and step mother), and access(documented travel).
b. Conceded. Many on this site have dedicated families and friends or even “Baby’s momma’s” who come here to defend vociferously that their loved one could not possibly have done this. Familial defense is largely empty. Humans are clannish and tribal, it takes a larger social framework to break those ties and a recognition that the actions of people within your circle of association who commit crimes are actually outsiders to successfully understand their crimes.
c. A fellow by the name of Alex Pacheo on this site was “actively helping” people to try and find his girlfriend who he had killed and had sex with her dead body. It was after he was captured and several weeks had gone by before people came forward with the revelation that Alex had tried to show the corpse off to some of his friends and some people he had recently met. Tyler has “friends” and “acquaintances” who have gone on tape to say they think he did it. His teachers and counselors are coming forward and supporting the affirmation that he was troubled.
d. A gram of pot does not make one a crazed drug head. Getting expelled from two different schools, the first for drugs, and then getting caught with pot months later, does suggest an extreme problem.
Several of MD’s finest would be needed to carefully search the vehicle.
We’re back to circles here. I’m making every effort to read everything I can.
Lockwood’s book “Forensic Investigation of Animal Cruelty: A Guide for Veterinary and Law Enforcement Professionals” costs 60 dollars from Amazon, I borrowed a copy from a vet friend. You have pets, ask your vet if they have a copy of the book you may borrow or peruse at your next vet visit, contact a local vet school, or ask which library in your area has a collection of text books that might contain this popular book. The book is 268 pages, about 209 of them are “meaty.” A lot of attention to detail in determining what occurred to an animal. There are graphic depictions of things that should not occur to animals. The principle purpose and focus on the book is to empower someone who has read the book to make the right decisions in identifying when a human being has been involved and how to collect evidence in a variety of crimes. I’d have to say the overwhelming attention of the book is on abuse and is heart wrenching and devastating.
While I agree with you in theory, DP – I have to disagree in principle when the potential aftermath is devastating. Terrorists, for example.
There are two basic “models” of conspiracy. One is like a wheel, with a central figure. Imagine spokes radiating out from the central figure (the “boss”) and all of the spokes end at participants. That’s relatively easy to break, because if you get any of the members, they can lead you to the boss.
There is a second, and much more dangerous conspiracy model. It was refined by the mafia, and has been used successfully by gangs, drug operations, financial frauds and now terrorists. It is a pyramid shape. The top of the pyramid is “the boss”. Below him is a level of people who answer directly to him, but have little or no direct knowledge of each other and other’s activities. Each of those people further break down into “cells” which have no knowledge of the other cell’s activities. A few more layers of this, and there is little or no hope of ever getting enough evidence on the boss. In fact in theory, two bottom level members could be working for the same guy, with the same objectives, and know no one in common.
So, even if a relatively high official from cell A was caught and interrogated (even with torture), he would be unable to tell LE about the big bombing being planned by cell B, because he doesn’t KNOW. period. And even if a footsoldier in Cell B was caught, he could not tell authorities what the big plan is either. He knows only what he is supposed to do – nothing else.
It is practically impossible to work up the pyramid from the bottom. It takes years and a hell of a lot of luck. And, yet, the damage that these people can do is amazingly devastating. If we can’t bend the rules for these criminals who have effectively figured out how to beat the system, then we are screwed.
Since we don’t want to change the law of the land to drop the evidence requirements (which would impact every single suspect, no matter what they are charged with), and we can’t allow these conspiracies to continue because of some loopholes, we have no choice but to allow some flexibility for the greater good.
The BIG problem is in how to keep our government in check, while still providing safety to our citizens. It’s not been figured out yet. but as with almost anything our government touches, when there is a decision to be made, they generally take the stupid choice, lol.
Jason, thank you for reading what I posted carefully, and for ceding some points.
For some reason my point re: Lockwood is not coming across clearly, allow me to attempt one more time, if I still fail to communicate the point I will drop the discussion until proof/evidence has been released one way or the other.
…………..
FROM CharityWire: HSUS Adds to Reward, Offers Assistance with Cat Mutilation Case, Wednesday, 2 July 2003 –
However, Lockwood said it is too soon to state that a “serial” cat killer is on the loose. He points to the summer of 1989 in Tustin, California where 67 cats were killed within a three-month period. According to a New York Times article (8/13/89), most of the carcasses that turned up on lawns in suburban neighborhoods were often described as being “dismembered with surgical precision, their blood drained and organs removed.”
Despite strong public belief that “Satanists” were responsible for the killings, an Orange County veterinarian, after conducting or reviewing reports of more than 100 necropsies, concluded that the cats were most likely killed by animals. Lockwood, who has reviewed many animal mutilation cases, notes that, “It is easy to misinterpret the results of predator activity since most people have little experience with how natural predators actually behave in the suburban environment. When there have been many killings, it is vital to sort out all the possible causes.”
FROM walterindenverDOTcom, A Case Study on Media Frenzy and Mass Hysteria, July 4, 2003
“The nation’s leading expert in animal mutilations said he’d be shocked if humans are responsible for recent cat mutilations – saying wildlife is the likely culprit.
“We have a database that has several thousand animal-cruelty cases, and frankly, we have never identified a case in which one or two or three people sequentially kill a large number of animals, or specifically cats,” said Dr. Randall Lockwood, Humane Society of the United States vice president of research and educational outreach and co-author of a book on animal forensics.”
and; ” Dr. Lockwood has not been very popular with the press. The Denver Post quotes him in this article, which downplays the likel[i]hood of natural predators as an explanation, but does include this passage:
Police say necropsies and other evidence suggest human involvement in 37 cat deaths. That number might be generous. Maybe even hysterical. Gould and Lockwood agree that in necropsies it is often hard to tell the difference between a wound made with a sharp tooth and a sharp knife. As a crime-solving tool, said Gould, necropsies aren’t as reliable as human autopsies.
I haven’t seen any national press quoting Dr. Lockwood.
The Denver Post also published a map showing the locations of the cats. (Click the link, then scroll down to see the map.) The Rocky published a more detailed map, not available online, which shows the central cluster in Aurora. See the blue area near most of the cats? That’s Cherry Creek reservoir, a state park. There’s lots of wildlife there. Just north of the park, on the other side of I-225, is Kennedy golf course. The Rocky’s map shows several of the cats were found just off the golf course. ”
[Jason: note the cases in Florida are also clustered in areas bordering parks]
FROM South Florida sees string of cat killings (gazetteDOTcom) June 04, 2009
“It’s rare that we see these kinds of injuries caused by people, so it’s important to rule out the other possibilities,” said Randall Lockwood, an animal behavior expert with the American Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, in Washington, D.C.
Since March 14, dozens of mutilated cats have been found in the areas of Cutler Bay and Palmetto Bay in Miami-Dade County. Similar attacks in Broward County were reported Saturday and Wednesday in Lauderhill.
In Miami-Dade County, most of the animals were killed at night and their carcasses were found during daytime hours. They were gutted and skinned, or their bellies were sliced open.
In Lauderhill on Wednesday, Alyssa Capote, 19, said she was horrified to find one of her three cats, Nila, drained of blood, and with her legs lopped off.”
[J: note that all cats in Lauderhill were eventually attributed to "dogs"]
…………..
My use of Dr. Lockwood is based on his statements, his deductions in these mass cat killings (large numbers), his lack of bias due to the fact that he is the EXPERT’s expert on animal cruelty. If Dr. Lockwood has seen (and conducts seminars about) that most of these types of cases are found to be caused by animals (as found in CO, UT, and CA) where he would have a natural predilection to find for “human involvement”… then we MUST attach some significance to what he has to say on these type of cases. One of the largest signs that animals and NOT humans are involved is the ABSENCE of human sign on scene, or nearby. He emphasizes an abundance of caution – a ruling out of animal-predation before reaching conclusions. This caution was taken in Lauderhill. To date, we do not know if the testing has been done in Miami-Dade.
Synopsis:
When a man with credentials such as Dr. Lockwood’s, who’s known to be an strong advocate for animals, as well as an expert (if not “the expert”) in forensically determining when humans are involved in harming animals says, that caution should be exercised in cases of multiple cat deaths (where the appearance ‘suggests’ human involvement), that it is ‘vitally important to rule out ‘other’ causes,” … not only does this exemplify his objectivity, but we would all do well to heed his warnings.
Mazzi’s — “The BIG problem is in how to keep our government in check, while still providing safety to our citizens. It’s not been figured out yet…”
Entrusting the state with judicious use of ‘side-stepping’ the law is a dangerous proposition.
Whenever, throughout history, this door has been opened, the definition has widened until applicable to the very people it purports to ‘protect.’ This is the nature of government, and this is why the Founders thought to bind it by “the chains of the Constitution.” (the ‘chains’ have long since been broken but that’s a whole other conversation)
(would love to pursue the argument re: torture, through email)
First off, there wasn’t a press conference today.
Second, has anyone seen the original documents yet? The ones the Miami Herald cited?
No. What do you think’s going on, Jason?
RE: Ovalle… wasn’t familiar w/him before this case, but he lost all credibility (for me) w/the last paragraph in his “sociopath” article (above) —
“While he did not admit to any cat killings, he did disclose to investigators that he ”despises” his father. In media interviews, his father and stepmother have said they own several cats.”
That is an astounding leap.
I’m dancing in a field of land mines.
If there are other suspects and Tyler implicated them with either his facebook pictures, comments or “partial confession,” now would be the time to start pushing to have these men turn themselves in.
If we really want to get conspiracy theory on this, why give a case that might involve three upper middle class to upper class men to an ASA who can’t properly handle a capital murder case? There’s a saying, don’t trust a bad politician with a Dog Catcher’s job, and the parallels are too much. Blood work should be back by now and some of it should be in the defense attorney’s hands after the motion for discovery. If there’s nothing, the defense attorney should have responded already. If not, then why isn’t the ASA talking about the deal negotiations?
Public cases tend to develop faster and have a pattern to the releases. Why a Thursday release with no follow up?
Jason, you’re talking way over my head… I’m really struggling to understand all the implications of what your saying – trying to read between the lines… Can you “dumb it down” a bit for me?
I haven’t read all the posts (running low on time at the moment) so you may understand what my point was. It’s not whether TYLER might have suggested a deal, but that the the cops would have seized on that immediately to “close the deal” and get a confession.
Tyler is an 18 year old. No matter how smart he may be, he isn’t likely to be terribly sophisticated – and ESPECIALLY if he is not the cat killer. (Certainly the cat killer would have had some idea of what he might be facing if caught, but your average teenage boy? Not so much). So, I could definitely see him offering to cough up info on what he might think was a relatively minor crime, to get off on what – to a teenage boy – is the worst thing he can imagine – a weed bust.
But, I think the report has got to be a lie, or it’s proof of innocence – take your pick. This is just common sense. If Tyler was truly guilty, the cops would have latched onto that “deal” and Tyler would have confessed, thus there would be no pot charge. That obviously didn’t happen.
So, now we are at the telling point – either the story is bogus (and just a lie to make Tyler appear more guilty), or whatever info Tyler provided wasn’t a good confession.
But, assuming the report is true, WHY would he have offered to confess in exchange for dropping the weed charge? There is only one logical answer – he gave a false confession which didn’t check out with the evidence (again thinking that the pot charge was worse than the cat charges), or else he would not have been charged with the pot. But why would he give a false confession if he really did it? He wanted the pot charge to go away – so if he was really guilty, he would have given a real confession, and the pot charge would have gone away.
I know that my explanation is a convoluted, but think about the situation, and I know you will see what I mean.
Which means that chances are the cops are not being 100% forthcoming in this case. (OR that Tyler is most likely not guilty). And, that’s a problem in my mind. Because, if LE will twist a conversation, what else might they twist? I sympathize with LE – trust me, I do. And I understand the motivation to pad a bit here and there – in most cases it’s actually helpful. But in certain cases, it screws up the reality, and can make an innocent person look guilty. The cops may have needed to add more to the affidavit, so the ADA could approve the warrant (assuming that’s the process in FL.) When all else fails, adding an unrecorded conversation suggesting guilt could be the weight needed.
And, in this case, there are TWO unrecorded conversations suggesting that guilt. And not much more backing it up.
This isn’t his first weed bust. He’s faced a judge over marijuana before, and if he’s faced judges like I’ve seen, they promised him severe punishment if he was caught with drugs again. He would have every reason to believe that a drug possession charge would be very severe, now that he is an adult and because his previous charges were probationary in some respects and consequential(expulsion) in others.
As far as law enforcement’s charges versus guilty plea, I stand by the statement that Tyler is not the only killer. The police have consistently stated that they are looking for other accomplices.
To the above response about whether or not media would show information, I think you miss my point. With the Palin emails, they were handed to the media to publish by a source interested in knocking Palin down and with the secrets, they were discovered by investigative journalism as a hole that anyone could capitalize on. But if the source was law enforcement, there’s a journalistic integrity issue to honor the wishes of the source if there is an agreement in place on the release of that source’s information; this is how press secretaries release information and get their message established through a give and take. If you can get the information from another source, you don’t have to honor the source’s wishes, but if you fail to honor the source’s request, the source can use that against you in future cases when they withhold information from you. When a pattern of communication develops, the press become dependent upon the relationship with these official sources. They could do freedom of Information acts, but by that time the story will have been published by 5 competing sources, and your station will be running their syndication rather than your own write up. When stations and papers are cutting staff, how can you afford to get on the outs with official releases that have a very PR unfriendly set of consequences on the horizon.
Example: News flash, Cat Killer’s accomplices tipped off by Journalist at the Times, flee justice.
If you do a Google image search on Tyler Weinman now, this image is starting to show up, even this article.
Jason, “When a pattern of communication develops, the press become dependent upon the relationship with these official sources.”
That’s precisely the problem.
As to the juvenile record: are these records not “sealed?”
Google image search: Yes, the pic is showing up, on page 13… I’m missing the significance of what you’re saying here?
Just came across the following @ UF IFAS Doc# WEC141 Orig. 2001, reviewed 2008, “Interpreting the Physical evidence of predation on Domestic Livestock”
“Coyotes have expanded their presence and have increased in numbers throughout Florida since the 1970s and the potential exists for coyotes to cause livestock losses throughout the state. Cattle are primarily at risk during calving periods, but goats and sheep may be vulnerable throughout the year. Coyotes also have been reported to kill pets, particularly cats and small dogs. Loss of livestock to coyotes in Florida is most likely to occur during April-June when coyotes are denning and rearing pups”
“particularly cats” … denning/rearing April through June??!!
more: http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/UW135
Coyotes (Canis latrans) pose a risk to domestic cats (Felis catus). We captured, radiocollared, and tracked 8 coyotes from November 2005 to February 2006 for 790 hours in Tucson, Arizona, USA. We observed 36 coyote–cat interactions; 19 resulted in coyotes killing cats. Most cats were killed in residential areas from 2200 hours to 0500 hours during the pup-rearing season. Single coyotes were as effective killing cats as were groups (>1) of coyotes. Documented cases of predators killing cats could encourage cat owners to keep their cats indoors and assist wildlife managers in addressing urban wildlife issues. (source: http://www.bioone.org/doi/abs/10.2193/2008-033)
“Most cats were killed in residential areas from 2200 hours to 0500 hours during the pup-rearing season.”!! (see my prior post)
Doesn’t it make far more sense that these cats were killed by coyotes, or the like, than to accuse a young man who talked on his cellphone late at night??
New Thread because the other one is just too mangled.
Mazzi said:
I am beginning to agree with this assessment. I think even DueProcess would be on the same page that this case appears botched, in the wrong hands and at the very least handled unfairly IF there’s more than one perp and especially if someone is “more guilty.”
That said, I don’t think he’ll walk, at least not out of the first court room. I think he’ll be convicted by a jury if he goes to a jury trial because I just don’t think his attorney is good enough to beat this in a jury trial if there’s one drop of cat blood found on any item he owns or was collected. I don’t see why this isn’t a judge trial. A judge trial I would trust on this to effectively squash most of the evidence. I think a judge would look at the 19 explicit photos of the cats, and say, “okay, show me proof,” but a prosecutor is going to show the photos of Tyler in custody showing off his cat scratches, and there will be no answer for it that a jury will hear after they’re shown the pictures and blow-ups of the dead cats that some forensic specialist from the state is going to say was performed by a human being.
One drop of blood and Tyler goes to jail until his appeal smashes the investigation’s techniques of evidence collection.
If Tyler is guilty of some of this, and knows anything, and there are other people involved, IF he turns them in, he might get a light sentence.
Damn… that kid’s got the CRAZY EYES!
Update:
Nothing really new. Tyler’s attorney successfully received 10,000 dollars for Tyler’s defense from funds established for this purpose by the State. His hearing date is on the 8th of October for 42 charges
19 Animal Cruelty charges
4 Burglary charges
19 Improper disposal charges
News sources are still extremely quiet in all regards. The State Attorney has not released any new information.
I’ve been following the case through court dockets & thought there was supposed to be a hearing Sept. 9 but nothing…it sure has quited down in here..Little Mr. Sunshine Weinman may be been all but forgotten by the media & most of the public but I’m sure the residents of Palmetto & Cutler Bays are still waiting for justice & the ‘cat serial killer’ scum punished.
Only thing new I’ve learned is that ‘grandpa’ started to foot the bills for Tyler’s mounting legal expenses since he’s an unemployed, HS expelled pot head with no future except possibly prison. His parents are educated professionals, a dentist & ‘life coach’, has Tyler already bled them dry?
I haven’t forgotten Tyler Weinman & hope there’s evidence to put this creepy little suburbanite away for a long time. I believe the trial starts in Oct. please no delays…
Evangeline,
I made a post on the 9th, after reviewing updates from my sources, one of whom is attending all of the open to the public court appearances. You were correct that a small procedural line was handled on the 9th, but the next real hurdle is on the 8th of October. It remains my “uninformed” opinion that he will be found guilty of charges related to cat mutilation and improper disposal after he finally reaches a plea agreement; cruelty charges will probably be dropped. It is unlikely that the State Attorney will risk antagonizing the judge at the this time with any more press releases and to avoid damaging their attempts to plea bargain, the defense will withhold anything except for a few wild statements from Tyler’s attorney. This case is far from forgotten.
An interesting conversation, if you’re interested between me and several people also interested in this case, suggest that the deal most likely to be accepted is a sentence of 12 years at a mental health facility with a possible release in 40 months. He would be found not-guilty by reason of insanity, be classified as a moderate danger to people and property and in all likelihood never live an un-medicated day past his sentencing. I don’t think it’s justice for the victims, but I think it’s probably the best possible sentence to hope for at this time.
I have only read through August 7 so if someone has already posted this I apologize but I found some related pictures to the one that was being debated earlier.
There is one showing the guy in the pink shirt holding up several dead cats. (Not for the squeamish). As this doesn’t fit in with what I understand about this case it looks like the pictures are from somewhere else other than this case.
http://tineye.com/search/e52fe0e1073253e7411c24e3a1f65e2a0215b165
DUE PROCESS: Animals of prey don’t “pose” their victims, especially WITHIN FENCES, ergo your “a wild animal did it” is B.S.
Next case!!!
Just a quick update, court case starts tomorrow.
Nothing new so far. Local news are replaying the bits on the “confession” or “partial confession.”
http://cbs4.com/local/tyler.weinman.cat.2.1235271.html
“OK, so let me see if I understand. As long as I tell you about the cats that I did, you can get rid of the others?” Weinman asked detectives.
Sorry, motion for continuance was accepted at 11:58 today, was filed early this morning.
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/breakingnews/sfl-cat-slaying-trial-bn100909,0,2408883.story
Paging Dexter Morgan… paging Dexter Morgan….
http://cbs4.com/local/cat.torture.pinecrest.2.1283279.html
“….shot not once, but three times with a pellet gun.”
Evidence of human involvement.
Just a side note, Tyler Weinman’s case continues on 01/20/2010, 6 days after his birthday. I’ll be keeping close tabs on it.
Apparently testing continues.
http://cbs4.com/crime/tyler.weinman.college.2.1437665.html
MIAMI (CBS4) ? Accused serial cat killer Tyler Weinman, who has been under house arrest since he was taken into custody in June, is asking a judge for permission to attend classes at Miami-Dade College.
Weinman, 19, stood quietly in court Wednesday morning as his attorney and prosecutors argued over the reasons for why the case is dragging out. Miami-Dade Circuit Judge John Thornton said at its current pace he wasn’t expecting Weinman’s trial to start for at least a year.
Weinman is charged with 19 counts of animal cruelty. His arrest came after more than two dozen cats were slaughtered in South Dade – their partially dissected remains left on their owners’ front lawns.
The killings prompted national headlines and a massive police manhunt for the cat killer. Weinman has maintained he is innocent. His attorney argues police rushed to judgment against Weinman because of growing embarrassment and publicity over the cat killings.
The case against Weinman is largely circumstantial and could rely on the results of DNA tests being conducted on several knives and scalpels seized during a search of Weinman’s home. If the tests do not link those knives to any of the dead cats, the case against Weinman would likely fall apart.
Defense attorney David Macey has been asking prosecutors to reveal the results of those tests. Prosecutors say the tests are still being conducted.
During Wednesday’s hearing Macey notified the court that Weinman had received his General Equivalency Diploma or GED. Prior to his arrest, Weinman has been expelled from the last two schools he attended and had not graduated from high school.
Macey notified the court that Weinman now wanted to start attending classes at Miami Dade College. Because Weinman is under house arrest and required to wear an ankle monitor, he needs a judge’s permission to go to college.
Prosecutors objected to Weinman being allowed to attend classes on any of Miami-Dade’s campuses. They said they were afraid he would simply use the classes as an excuse to get out of the house and just hang out on the college campus. The judge agreed that was a concern and suggested Weinman look into taking college classes on-line instead.
But Judge Thornton said he would allow Weinman to meet with a Miami-Dade College advisor and draft a possible schedule for him to attend classes on campus. The judge said he wanted more information, however, before making a final decision. Another hearing is scheduled for next week.
There is apparently a lot for me to discover outside of my books. Thanks for the important read,
he just seems a little too eager to toy with police and discuss cat dissection to me. He also seems a little too smug and arrogant for his own good. He knows that at the point in time of this article, that there’s no hard evidence against him so he’s just going to keep dancing around the issue until he’s let go.
If he’s innocent, someone should smack him for his attitude. If he’s guilty, someone should slice him open and pose him in front of other animal abusing assholes.
Seven months later…
CBS4 Miami I-Team (last night) http://cbs4.com/video/?id=91958@wfor.dayport.com
UPDATE!! DNA? No DNA. Test results completed in July and September 2009, defense just now hearing about the LACK OF results…
No eye witness. No physical evidence. No confession.
———————————–
Today’s Miami Herald http://www.miamiherald.com/2010/02/23/1494648/no-human-dna-detected-on-slain.html
CLIENT `INNOCENT’ “We are excited that the results are in and confirm what we’ve been saying since day one — Tyler Weinman is innocent,” said David Macey,Weinman’s defense attorney. “This is just another step toward vindication.”
Prosecutors declined comment.
Your post hadn’t been approved yet when I commented with the same, completed post. It is slightly disingenuous to abbreviate the article on the defense comment only. I still argue the tools are the only connection they can make. The likelihood of finding usable human DNA on the bodies of the animals was slight.
Hi Jason – how have you been? :)
Not “disingenuous”, I included the link to the full article – just posted the only intelligent part of it. lol
So, they’ve had reports on DNA results – upon which “everything hung” – since July, and September (the DA asserts they just got these reports…more damage to ‘credibility”); NO DNA is found. And what exactly are they doing with the “alleged” tools? — examining them at the sub-atomic level? In seven (7!!) months, and while attempting to build their case, you’d think they would have AT LEAST got this in hand…
This young man is innocent of all charges. No human is responsible for the deaths of these cats. It’s not over yet, but I stand right where I did from the beginning – based on many similar cases across the country, and for reasons already stated long ago.
The only completed tests appear to be on the swabs from the animals themselves, which were not the tests of the equipment.
I don’t know why this testing eggs on and on and on. I think we may in fact get some of the same updates about this case as far as public news articles. I’ve continued to update this thread, for good or ill with anything that changes, including docket changes.
Note how the “Seized Items” header considers that no explanation has been given regarding the testing of the tools.
The tools… when are they going to directly(not indirectly as they have already)discuss the tool testing?
No human DNA found on mutilated cats in South Miami-Dade
http://www.miamiherald.com/2010/02/23/1494648/no-human-dna-detected-on-slain.html
The Miami-Dade police crime lab did not find any human DNA on 11 of the cats slain and mutilated during a killing spree that terrorized South Miami-Dade pet owners last summer, according to newly released court records.
NO FORENSIC TIES
The negative results mean there still is no forensic evidence linking accused cat killer Tyler Weinman, 19, to the grisly mutilations.
However, the state is still awaiting results from lab tests being conducted on scalpels, clothes and other items seized in Weinman’s car and house.
Weinman is accused of killing and mutilating 19 cats in all.
Miami-Dade crime scene technicians swabbed the mouths and paws of the dead felines, hoping the animals bit or scratched their attacker and drew human blood or skin cells that would provide a DNA match.
CLIENT `INNOCENT’
“We are excited that the results are in and confirm what we’ve been saying since day one — Tyler Weinman is innocent,” said David Macey, Weinman’s defense attorney. “This is just another step toward vindication.”
Prosecutors declined comment.
Weinman is charged with 19 counts each of felony animal cruelty and improperly disposing of an animal body, as well as four counts of burglary for allegedly returning to homes to dump the cats.
If DNA linking Weinman to the killings is eventually found, it would bolster the government’s circumstantial case.
SEIZED ITEMS
Detectives seized scalpels, knives, nylon rope with duct tape attached, computers and clothing from his car and home, but they have yet to make any connection between those items and the killing spree. Weinman’s father is a dentist.
In arresting Weinman last June, police detectives said they had attached an an electronic tracking device to his car that placed him in the immediate area of one killing reported June 6.
In an interview with police, Weinman described in detail how he had dissected cats in anatomy class at Palmetto Senior High. Weinman had long red scratches that suggested he had struggled to subdue the felines, police said.