The Valley Swim Club
Evil is a strange thing. Sometimes you’ll find it in a mother and father who decide to stop feeding their newborn baby and watch their child die a long, painful death by starvation. Sometimes it will show itself in the eyes of an 11-year-old boy who takes a shotgun, places the barrel to the back of his sleeping stepmother’s head and blows her brains onto the opposite wall.
But evil can also be subtle. You might hear it in a comment whispered a bit too loud, or see it in a seemingly harmless occurrence as a handful of parents telling their kids it’s time to get out of the pool.
Creative Steps Day Care runs a summer program designed to give disadvantaged inner city kids from Northeast Philadelphia a chance to have a real summer camp experience. They made arrangements for the children to participate in several popular warm weather activities, including swimming.
To secure a swim slot for 65 mostly African American kids, they paid more than 1900 dollars up-front to The Valley Tennis And Swim Club, a private club located inside the gated suburban community of Hundingdon Valley. Hundingdon Valley, although ethnically diverse, is almost exclusively Caucasian.
When the Creative Steps kids arrived at the pool, many of the local parents were already there, watching there own children swim. Alethea Wright, President of Creative Steps, said that some of the kids overheard some Valley Club members making comments about the race of the visitors.
Camper Dymire Baylor said:
I heard this lady, she was like, ‘Uh, what are all these black kids doing here?’ She’s like, ‘I’m scared they might do something to my child.’”
The behavior of the rest of the white parents was just as bad. Alethea Wright observed
“Some of the members began pulling their children out of the pool and were standing around with their arms folded.”
“Only three members left their children in the pool with us.”
Wright said she went to talk to a group of members and heard one woman say she would see to it that the group, made of up of children aged five to thirteen-years-old, did not return.
The next day The Valley Swim Club, through their president, John Duesler, told the camp director that the camp’s membership was being suspended and their money would be refunded.
As if the situation wasn’t already bad enough, Duesler made a statement to two Philidelphia TV stations during which he made this incredibly stupid remark:
“There was concern that a lot of kids would change the complexion … and the atmosphere of the club.”
Seriously John, the “complexion”?
Through their website, which has since been taken down, the Valley Swim Club released this statement/explanation for what happened with the children from Creative Steps:
The Valley Club is deeply troubled by the recent allegations of racism which are completely untrue.
We had originally agreed to invite the camps to use our facility, knowing full well that the children from the camps were from multi-ethnic backgrounds. Unfortunately, we quickly learned that we underestimated the capacity of our facilities and realized that we could not accommodate the number of children from these camps. All funds were returned to the camps and we will re-evaluate the issue at a later date to determine whether it can be feasible in the future.
Our Valley Club deplores discrimination in any form, as is evidenced by our multi-ethnic and diverse membership. Whatever comments may or may not have been made by an individual member is an opinion not shared by The Valley Club Board.
In the following video, John Duesler and his wife, Bernice, spoke to the media on July 10th outside The Valley Club in Huntingdon Valley.
Editor’d Note: I don’t know about any of you, but I’m having a very hard time believing anyone from the Valley Swim Club when they say racism had nothing to do with their decision to uninvite the children from Creative Steps Day Care. And I find the behavior of the white parents at the pool on the day the Creative Steps kids showed up to swim especially despicable. Not only did they insult and degrade a bunch of grade school-aged kids who just happened to be Black and Hispanic, they began the process of passing on their ignorance to their own young children. As disgraceful as the former behavior is, I believe the latter is actually the more evil and the most hellworthy.
More Editor’s Notes: I want to make it clear why I found this story so disturbing, and why I thought the behavior of the parents and the Valley Club were hellworthy. I believe the kids who said they overheard club members makes racial comments – I guess that’s the key for me. The center of the entire issue is that little kids were humiliated and degraded by a bunch of adults – that’s the kind of thing that always gets my hackles up.
I believe everything the Valley Club did after the initial incident was because of pressure from the those same adults, many of whom appear to be racists. Returning the money and “uninviting” the Creative Steps kids re-enforced the message that they’re different and not as good as the white kids.
As for John Duesler – his statement was just plain stupid.
Perhaps I jumped to some conclusions I shouldn’t have, or I’m a bit naive, but I read about this story a few days ago, and it’s been bothering me ever since – that’s why I wrote it up. I am glad that it’s got people talking – it means I was able to at least write a fairly balanced story, in spite of my personal feelings.
Who Do You Think Deserves Hell. Pick Whoever Qualifies.
- The Valley Club Parents (59%, 369 Votes)
- The Valley Swim Club (32%, 200 Votes)
- No one deserves Hell (29%, 179 Votes)
- John Duesler (26%, 162 Votes)
Total Voters: 621
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298 Comments »
I’m glad you posted this. This story just makes me sad. It’s sad that the children had to learn at an EARLY age, that racism is still alive and well.
I hope their country/swim club goes down in this economic crisis…that’s my wish for them! Even a racist should know that everyone’s money is GREEN, what idiot refunds money at this terrible economic time? Idiots.
What assholes! They should be ashamed of themselves. Evolve people!
The best part is how he later followed it up with something like “Well, many of them couldn’t swim.” Because they’re black, amirite?
Seriously, dude, even if you aren’t trying to be racist (and I sort of believe Duesler isn’t trying to be)… just stop talking. You are clearly a dumbass.
And I love how his explanation about the “complexion” was his official statement. He had time to come up with an explanation, and THAT’S what he churns out?
I live not too far from there. What a disgrace.
I am white, in fact, I am the only white household in my development of 60 townhouses. I couldn’t ask for better neighbors. I have never in my life judged someone by the color of the skin or the country they come from or by a physical handicap.
If you are nice to me, I will be nice to you, if you try to screw me…not screw me…SCREW YOU.
From the time my daughter could understand, she was taught that everyone was made the same way. All people are equal. I don’t understand bigotry and never will.
I feel bad for these kids, apparently someone is trying to show them that there is a better way of life. The inner city of Philadelphia (of with Huntingdon is a suburb) is extremely awful, crime wise. I am glad that they have parents who want the best for their children.
“I am glad that they have parents who want the best for their children”
What about the parents of the suburban kids? Aren’t they allowed to want what’s best for their kids too? If a group of rowdy kids were disturbing their ability to have a nice afternoon swim in a PRIVATE pool, don’t those parents have a right to object?
Or do they have to tolerate disruption because to protest the situation would mean that someone would “GUESS” it was because they are racist?
Actually NO, they DO NOT have the right to object. It may have been a private pool, but Club accepted money for the children to swim there. And for the record, I know of no children who swim or play without making noise. So the children “being a disturbance” to the others is a sad, pathetic way to try and sound “concerned”, and not racist.
Indeed, they do have a right to complain, with the owners of the club. Not out loud to children.
Based on experience with the experiences I’ve had with these rich fancies from the Philadelphia suburbs, no, they don’t have a right to complain. Their kids usually turn out to be the rudest, nastiest, “everyone owes me a living”, I’m God’s gift to the world teenagers. They generally have no manners and no respect for anyone, including themselves.
These kids are products of “new money” parents. I wouldn’t even want my daughter to associate with people like them.
I didn’t vote for hell on this one. Not because what happened wasn’t wrong, it was. Disgusting, despicable, absolutely 100% wrong. These parents and this establishment don’t deserve hell for being racist pieces of shit. They are already in hell, if they really find being around black and hispanic people that offensive. I do feel incredibly sorry for those kids that didn’t get to enjoy their summer camp, and I don’t believe for one second that racism didn’t have anything to do with it.
I would like for you to add one. I want to vote for the little whiny bitches who are filing yet another stupid lawsuit to go to hell. The problem is it is a private swim club and they refunded the money. At that point the only possible lawsuit is violation of a contract and we all know it. This civil rights lawsuit shit is ridiculous.
I’d be inclined to agree with you, but I actually think they should be going ahead with the lawsuit. Let me preface that be saying, I thought *this* observation might have been bullshit:
“I heard this lady, she was like, ‘Uh, what are all these black kids doing here?’ She’s like, ‘I’m scared they might do something to my child.’”
That, to me, sounds made-up. I seriously doubt anyone actually said that. If they did, that’s disgusting, I just don’t think it was said. Rather I think perhaps Ms. Wright might have thrown that out there to perhaps heat up a potential lawsuit.
Now, that being said, I do think they should sue. I used to organize a summer group for inner city kids in MA (a music workshop) and we would take field trips, go to the pond, museums etc. It takes so much time, planning, organization, permission from parents. If it had been me, and these dipshits caused me that kind of hassle and distress, hell yeah I would sue. I’d sue because they wasted my time, cost me money in travel and food, and basically forced me to re-do my entire itinerary which is a PAIN IN THE ASS. These kids had just as much a right to be there as anyone.
Moop – you said “These kids had just as much a right to be there as anyone.”
I disagree. It is a private club, and as such they have the right to refuse people for any reason – be it that they have too many members, that the behavior of the particular member is offensive, or even, truth be told, because of race – assuming that the club takes no public funding. Now, that last part is a “letter of the law” issue – many clubs have been sued and several have lost because of politicized judges, but technically private clubs are immune. (Sneaky ACLU lawyers can sometimes manipulate the situation though).
Anyway, I agree that the statements seem extremely inflammatory and not necessarily taken in context. I really REALLY have a hard time imagining that it happened as it is presented.
If nothing else, the social consensus in suburban environments is that racism is wrong. Even if a specific person was racist behind closed doors, they would NEVER say it in public. It would look bad on them. Being racist and ACTING racist are two completely different things.
I believe they did have a right to be there, because they were given a membership and it was paid in full. Well… ok, I see what you’re saying. Maybe not a “right” in that yes, it’s a private club and they make the rules. But they way they went about terminating the membership and the comments that were made did make it seem like they believed those children, simply by being black, did not deserve the same privileges of a paid membership than the other people who were already at the pool that day.
They paid $1900 for 65 kids to attend. That’s about $30 per child. I guarantee you that is not a full membership in that swim club. The clubs around here cost about $250 a month per family.
I would guess that the contract was for the group, for a very limited usage, and definitely not a membership.
Mazzi: Regardless of how much their particular time slot, or whatever it was cost, the bottom line is, that the pool had agreed to let them swim there based on whatever amount was paid. I don’t think either side is innocent in this. I think that when people don’t get what they want, it’s easy to scream “Racism!” But it also doesn’t sit right with me when the club employees can revoke on a contract knowing full well how many children would be present that day, and throw in a comment or two about the “complexion” of the club being compromised. I agree with most of your statements regarding this, but not that they had no right to be there.
Not to mention, in the unlikely event that the club employees honestly did not know how many children would be present that day… wasn’t it their responsibilty to ask beforehand?
Well yes, of course hun. But the pool didn’t kick the kids out. They just asked them to not come back. I think that is reasonable.
Apparently the reality of the situation was too burdensome for the facility, and there is no doubt that the fees paid were heavily discounted to the group. So who is the club more responsible to? The people who paid full-price, or the people who are paying what is essentially just enough to cover the expenses of providing lifeguards and basic operating fees for the costs they incur?
I can agree with that, Mazzi. Maybe the club bit off more than they could chew. No one could fault them for trying. But the way they went about this was wrong. I’m sorry, but it was. What does the complexion of the club have to do with anything? Or assuming some of the kids can’t swim? I just think the way they went about asking them not to return was disrespectful.
I don’t think that saying that some (or most? many?) of the kids couldn’t swim was an assumption. I think it was an observation. The kids had already come to the pool, and crowded into the shallow end because they couldn’t swim.
In order to be able to swim, you need to be taught, which means that you need a pool available to you. The sad reality is that most of the city kids probably did not have an accessible pool in which to learn. I’m sure that there were several club member’s kids who couldn’t swim either. It’s not a race thing, it’s an experience thing.
Hey Mazzi, I think the price tag is off a little there.
I live in a non-gated community with a golf course, tennis, pools, fitness center, etcetera, and our “membership fees” are under 150 a month. I lane swim in the winter at both an Optimist Swim club and a Park for about 60 a month with a pass system for the park and a pay as I go for the Optimist. A membership for 12 months is about 545 for either, but I just do indoor lane swim during the winter and early spring. For that matter, my wife likes yoga and weight-lifting at Gold’s and that’s only 45 a month with her workplace’s discount, and I’ve gone swimming there (in their 20 foot long pool of boredom and flip-turns) as a guest.
I think 1900, or 29 and a quarter per child sounds like a fairly decent “group” discount that the average park or social group in the area would front for. I’ll admit the Y is pricier, but this “Athletic Club” sounds like it’s attached to a neighborhood, kind of like mine is–though mine is about 78% white, because it’s very close to the city’s demographic. Seems to me, given this is just kids that the price was fair.
I think there was racism involved, and I’d probably scream bloody murder at a homeowners’ meeting to get our manager fired if he’d “screwed up” like this guy, but I think the price was fair.
You are probably right. I was comparing that to the cost of our local country club which has an initiation fee of $15,000-25,000 and then about $250-350 a month. (Depends on whether you want golf privileges or not).
After looking at the video though, and hearing the director and his wife describe it , it doesn’t sound like a country club, but rather a community pool. The neighborhood my best friend lives in charges $125 a month for the community pool and tennis courts. That’s probably more in line with this swim club.
I hope the publicity this club receives on CNN and elsewhere hurts both its reputation and its finances. If the gym I attend did something like that, I’d resign membership and encourage others to boycott it. The president of this club is not only racist, but plain stupid for making the comments he did to the media–most racists are smart enough to know to hide their racism–his “complexion” remark is stupid beyond comprehension. I hope one of his children marries a black or hispanic person, and that he has lots of little bi-racial grandchildren running around in his pool.
OT–Max, I sent you an email about a story update. PYSIH gets mentioned in this particular news article!
“I hope one of his children marries a black or hispanic person, and that he has lots of little bi-racial grandchildren running around in his pool.”
LOL that’s awesome.
I don’t believe the president is racist. If he was, he would never have agreed to allow a group of inner-city children access to his pool.
My guess is that the REALITY of the situation posed serious probl;ems to the running of his facility, and he had no choice but to put the needs of the members first.
I think this negative publicity is terribly unfair unless there is proof that the facility could hold all of the children at once, and that the children were behaving like little angels.
Something no one has mentioned – how many can the pool safely hold? 65 people, regardless of if they are children or adults, can quickly fill a pool. Since they all arrived together, it was safe to assume they were all together so they would all be swimming. Perhaps the parents really removed their children because of overcrowding. Take a step back and read the comments, without the context of race in your mind….they could be honest comments about who are these people and why are they swimming in a private club that I had to pay good money for? The racial overtones may be being projected by others. I hate that anytime anything like this happens, racism is automatically assumed – I feel that is more racist than anything that might have happened at the pool. I also don’t think that a single one of these children was scarred until the adults told them they were. Kids are resilient and often aren’t aware of problems until we tell them they exist. And a survey of who is going to hell – pretty sure that is not your decision, it is God’s.
I see what you’re saying (kind of) but ultimately, if it had been a problem, the pool should have informed the camp that they couldn’t accomodate that many people in one group BEFORE they paid, got together and arrived ready to swim! I have brought my family to the beach before and if it’s a mob scene, we leave. It’s not because I don’t want to share the beach with non-white people, it’s because I can’t find a space to put my towel down. So I see what you’re saying there about people leaving. But the pool cooked their own goose by kicking them out after they had already arrived and paid. Had they simply said “no” to begin with, this would not have become a racial issue. Now, I believe it is.
M,
Look I get sick of hearing about racism too…but this WAS racism plain and simple.
I’m not going to call you a racist for not thinking so, but you’re not too bright. It’s been my experience that rich white people are some of the worst racists you will ever have the misfortune of coming across.
Having said that….this past Forth of July a white family was attacked by a mob of black teenagers who screamed,
“It’s a black world now ” as they beat the family.
But I’m sure many of you never heard that one. MSM media sucks, and I’d like to hear ALL stories, not just the ones others might believe will hold my interest.
So from one paragraph you’ve determine I’m none too bright. I am obviously not intelligent because I happen to disagree with you. Huh…
M,
That was a stupid comment on my part for which I will apologize for.
If I dislike a black person because of the way they act, is that racist?
I’m going to go with no. Behaviors define a person, not skin color. I don’t dislike people based on their skin color solely. But I do dislike people that live up to certain stereotypes. I dislike ebonics and that whole gangsta stereotype. I dislike when anyone behaves like that, black or white. If you are Hispanic and walking around with a bandanna on your head, wearing a button up shirt buttoned only at the collar, going “Esse”, I’m not going to like you.
The black people I am friends with, are the ones that other black people accuse of acting white. And that is just stupid.
I also dislike anyone that moves to this country and doesn’t respect it enough to learn the language. Often times, this gets seen as racist because of the number of Mexicans/Hispanics and Asians that fall into this category. But I feel the same way about Swedes or Russians or whatever. If you move to another country, it is a sign of respect to learn their native language. I did it when I lived in Brazil and I was only there for two years. So I have no problem expecting people to do it here.
When are you going to learn English?
Hm, that’s kind of ignorant. I believe that people should learn the language of the nation in which they choose to inhabit, HOWEVER I would never be so much of a stuck up bitch to actively DISLIKE someone who could not speak English well.
*cough* Stapler.
Alanna- Not speaking it well and not speaking it at all are two different things. A few years ago, over 1000 Hispanics marched on Utah’s capitol in protest of proposed immigration laws. One of the local news stations interviewed a woman from Ecuador. She needed a translator for the interview. She has lived in this country for twelve years. That is unacceptable in my eyes. That is not even making an effort at that point.
The whole protest was retarded. The laws were to enact stricter punishments for those who assist illegal aliens. Now if you aren’t assisting illegal aliens, ie people breaking the law, why would you care about stricter punishments? It really was an eye opener to see the number of Hispanics who have no regard for the U.S.’s immigration laws. I’m just glad there are groups like the Minutemen out there.
And that isn’t racist. I expect EVERYONE to enter this country legally, respect our laws, and learn our language regardless of country of origin.
Jason- Eu nao sei. Eu vou tentar apprender amanha. Tudo bem?
You’ll try to learn more tomorrow? Or the more subtle, “You’ll try to teach me more tomorrow?”
I read languages well… I can’t speak anything but English well, but I know some Spanish, German and French(and a ridiculous amount of Latin).
This looks actually like Portuguese, but French, Spanish, Portuguese, Italian or even Latin , you misspelled “apprender,” it’s aprender or aprende(aprenda, etc).
It’s related to the root of the word “apprehension,” but is spelled differently because the first p used to be a d, in old Latin. Adprehendere became Apprehendere (to take hold of and grasp). A Prende, to take into your grasp or the definite article of grasping as part of yourself.
My Brazilian friend isn’t online right now to rebut, but I think he’d love to show you a few interesting words.
It is Portuguese. I used to be quite fluent in it but am a bit rusty after not speaking it regularly for the past 12 years. But I make do when need be.
I’m going to go ahead and say it: Not everyone picks up language all that well. =( It’s either not their skill set, or they really haven’t taken the time to master it. Either way, it doesn’t make them automatically bad people.
So my husband spoke only spanish until he was FIVE YEARS OLD. And now his spanish is so terrible it makes me (a non native speaker) wince. So if he were to go to a spanish speaking country, should people look down on him? It doesn’t mean he isn’t a smart, nice guy… and it shouldn’t earn him any contempt from others either.
BTW, everyone who “doesn’t know English” … knows some English. The lady you reference may have wanted a translator so she could get things across in the way she intended, and not have people judge her by accidental word choices or poor accents.
Congrats on that. I haven’t had a chance to immerse myself in anything but English and code, but I actually agree with you, as racist as it sounds that people who live in a country should learn how to speak the language. I think I actually saw the exact same report or something very similar during the popular immigration marches … was that 2005? A woman who’d been in this country for 14 years, I think she said, or rather her translator said, was nervous about being deported because she was in the country illegally. The interviewer asked her if she knew English and as a point of pride she said the people she called friends spoke only Spanish. Later, she was asked if she were offered amnesty and American citizenship would she accept it, she’d take it gladly and that she “loved this country.”
“Words mean something”
It’s one of those rules I live by. English is an integral part of the American experience. It’s the majority language of the government, of art, politics, technology, education, history and a dominating aspect of our foreign policy. It’s a powerful language to paraphrase one of my favorite T-Shirts, beats up other languages in dark alleys and riffles through their pockets for loose grammar. It is singly the last, acceptable version of manifest destiny outside of the space program that is politically viable. It is a hard language to learn and a hard language to master, but it’s a powerful tool that has not seen a reasonable competitor in almost a century.
I’m not going to bother to learn enough Esperanto to understand that old William Shatner movie, I have no problem learning another language when I need to, but English shouldn’t be seen as a badge of evil in the United States, it should be lauded as something that we breed and grow like a champion set of roses. It should be a hurdle for American citizenship, because its basic understanding is vital to making capable decisions within this republic. I have friends in Holland, who talk about their five languages and how great that is, but all of them at the very least share freaking Dutch. Don’t give up Spanish, just if you’re going to choose a new country, choose a language to go with it. If the intention is to be merely a foreign worker, and rumble through the country taking what opportunity falls by the side of the road, by all means, keep your language intact and move on as soon as you can. But if your intention is to add to the common good, serve the country or even eventually expand on the nations borders in some mental or physical endeavor, please learn the language.
To the argument that some cannot learn the language, I do give a reasonable dispensation, but I think it’s really a resistance thing as well. It’s too easy for the Spanish community to ignore the English speaking community that surrounds them, and thereby isolate their ability to adapt to the country that they arguably have chosen to “help”.
Wow… we agree on something…
Jason- It’s nice that we could find common ground on something.
Alanna- ANYONE can learn a language if they immerse themselves in that culture. I went to Brazil at 19. I had never spoken Portuguese prior to that, or even Spanish. I took German in highschool. I was conversational within 6 months of being there. I still had an accent and didn’t know all words, but I could carry on conversations on most topics.
The reason I was able to learn the language was because I tried to. We were instructed to only speak Portuguese in public, that it was rude not to in fact. This forced us to learn it to communicate. We were also encouraged to speak it amongst ourselves. It got to the point that I was eventually thinking and dreaming in Portuguese. And when I got back to the states, I spoke a hybrid language of the two for a little while.
We make it too easy not to learn English here. We put everything in other languages.(Brazil did not) We have radio, TV, etc in their native languages. They live in communities made up of natives of their country of origin. We hire bilingual workers to assist them with their needs. Heck, many states now have made it so they don’t even need a birth certificate or proof of residency to get an ID so they can open bank accounts and stuff. There is no incentive to learn English because we cater to them to the point that they don’t need to. And then they get mad when they come to you for something and you DON’T speak their language. I ran into this a lot when I was in retail. We need to declare English our official language and start enforcing it in some manner in my opinion.
I don’t know about you, but I’m pretty sure that the pool could accommodate well over eighty people.
Most are built for that reason, especially when it’s for a private club or open to the public.
Those people were racist. Plain and simple.
Exactly. And if they hadn’t been able to accomodate that size group it was their responsibility to say so right away. Not after they had paid and were ready to use the pool. I don’t see how people can not see this as a racist issue. The size of the group wasn’t a big mystery or surprise to the people at the club. They just didn’t like the reaction from their members when 65 inner city kids showed up.
As I said before, I suspect that the contract was for the “group”, and not for the individual children. Perhaps the club was under the impression that the group would be significantly smaller than it was?
It does seem unlikely that the club would say “sure – bring 65 kids here”. Even in an Olympic-sized pool, that’s a LOT of people.
No one has addressed the reality that if the owner of the club, or whoever agreed to the swim session, was dumb enough not to ask about the size of the group, that many children in a pool all at once may very well be dangerous, especially if a lot of them can’t swim. How many lifeguards were on hand? All it takes is one minute of not watching a smaller child to risk their going under and not being noticed because of the chaos in the pool. I’m thinking of the public pool by my house. They have three lifeguards, about a million kids in the pool during summer (including kids as little as four) and a SMALL pool.
M–did you not read the statement made by the pool’s president:
“There was concern that a lot of kids would change the complexion … and the atmosphere of the club.”
“Complexion” refers to the color of their skin and “atmosphere” refers to the club changing from all white to a mix of black and white. It doesn’t take a rocket science to see how racist his comment was, or how racist the parents of the white children were in their comments to the black and hispanic kids. .
I did read it but I’m not referring to that. I am referring to what originally sparked this “issue”. I realize that I am going to be in the minority on this matter but I think people want to see racism so they do.
Yes, but there are inconsistencies in the swim club’s statements after the fact that really bother me. They claim it was a question of over crowding, yet they knew exactly how many kids were coming ahead of time. Were talking about a very large pool here – I actually have a picture of it but couldn’t fit it into the story. I realize they were mostly crowded into the shallow end, but again, they knew ahead of time. And John Duesler’s “complexion” remark was either incredibly insensitive or remarkably stupid. And I believe what Althea Wright said about what she saw and heard, because she already had a relationship with the club. I don’t think she would have made it up.
Anyway, I wrote the story itself as even handedly as possible – that the reason I included the entirety of John Duesler’s press conference instead of the edited version. And I left out some statements from the Creative Steps camp that I found suspicious (read made up). The Editor’s Notes in italics are strictly my opinion, but I’m glad to see that the story is sparking some healthy debate.
There is a second meaning to the word “complexion” and I would suspect that he meant it this way. The second meaning basically is “the make up of a group”. While it was a seriously bad choice of wording,
Here – replace the word “complexion” with the two meanings: (dictionary.com definitions used)
“There was concern that a lot of kids would change the the NATURAL COLOR, TEXTURE, AND APPEARANCE OF THE SKIN … and the atmosphere of the club.”
Does this make sense? Now compare it with this:
“There was concern that a lot of kids would change the the APPEARANCE, ASPECT AND CHARACTER… and the atmosphere of the club.”
As I said, it was an unfortunate choice of words, but I don’t think it was meant to be racist.
I’m getting the impression that Mazzi is either the President of Valley Swims clubs friend or relative or she was one of the snobs offended by the vulgar inner city kids who dared influence the ‘complexion’ of the precious pool…me thinks she doth protest too much.
No Shannon,
Mazzi’s arguments (on this and other articles) are carefully constructed and fairly reasonable. Check out her comments on Tyler Weinman, and you’ll note her tendency to give the benefit of the doubt to at least a handful of the douche bags that come along. She carefully weighs her responses and tends to do the leg work, as she did with this definition. While I’d have expected caveats were she not a long time poster, who at the time was one of the top two on the left hand navigation, I don’t think her opinion in this matter can be dismissed as that of the normal fare of friend and family “blindness,” we tend to suffer through.
Best wishes, and no hard feelings on this one, I’m just trying to keep the record straight here.
Jason
Interesting that the guy thought the black kids ‘couldn’t swim anyway’. Really? Based on what infomation? That they’re black = can’t swim. Umm…didn’t he watch the Beijing Olympics? Cullen Jones is black and was the fastest in the prelims relays and he WON (yes he WON) a GOLD medal on the same team as MICHAEL PHELPS! And Cullen will participate in 2009 World championships! I guess that guy doesn’t watch tv! Why make such a crazy assumption to hide his obvious racist views?
And by the way, if he was concerned about overcrowding at the pool, why not split the kids into smaller groups where one sect would attend one day and the other sects on other days? Why totally refund the camp and loose over a $1000 because of ‘overcrowding’? Oh right, I forgot he’s a racist pig that’s why!
Now this is sad.
These children deserve a better place to swim than some prejudiced private club.
Who wants to make a water park for these kids?
*raises hand*
Now, all we need to to is raise the money for it.
- Also, I didn’t send anyone to hell. However, I do believe that the worst thing about this story is the crap that these parents might be putting into their kids heads about different races.
I don’t know about you guys, but when I take my 15-month old little boy out he will walk up to anyone his age….black, hispanic, asian…it doesn’t matter to him. All he sees is another little person who makes him laugh. The thought of having the sick mentality of telling him..”No no, you HAVE to stay away from that color”…that makes me truly ill.
I know how shitty my race is (I’m white) and I don’t usually give them the benefit of the doubt when they are accused of racism – But, I would like some proof. All of this sounds like hearsay to me and living in Pontiac, MI, a city where I’m the minority, I’ve been discriminated against plenty by African Americans for just walking down the street.
I’m not passing judgement on either of the two groups until someone can furnish an eyewitness that is somewhat impartial. If the pool is racist then why is this the first time anyone is saying anything? The club has been happy to have anyone there until just now? I don’t get that.
I despise racism in all forms, it sucks and is incredibly unnecessary. But yeah, I would like a little more coraboration before sending anyone to hell.
um… I’m white, and I don’t consider my race “shitty.” I consider racist individuals shitty.
Exactly Moop…
Jesus God…we don’t have to slam our own race in order to prove that we aren’t racist. And no one here has to add that being white is “shitty” in order for us to see you as non-racist.
Y’know, very often I think some white people REALLY go out of their way to somehow “prove” that they aren’t racist. Example…slamming the white race, or making other odd remarks concerning their skin color. And it’s my belief that those people are usually thee most racist of the bunch.
When you’re secure in your belief that you’re NOT a racist, you really couldn’t care less if you’re called one, and never feel an obligation to ridicule your own in order to fit in, or appear to be tolerant.
I know
Polish Jokes
Lawyer Jokes
Gay Jokes
Black Jokes
Helen Keller Jokes
Redneck jokes
Elderly jokes
blonde jokes
and the list goes on………..
Stereo types exist for a reason, but don’t assume anyone fits a sterotype on looks alone – let a person slot themselves…
Forgot
Engineer jokes
Geek Jokes
You’re right, we’re not All shitty., I’ve been watching too many holocaust/slavery/apartheid movies lately. Sorry, my bad.
wow, Rach way to be passive aggressive.
It’s more pride than wrath.
I despise racism, deeply and passionately. Whether it is against minority races or against whites.
But, I really would like to know a bit more. How were the children behaving? Reality here, folks. People act differently depending on, among other factors, where they are raised. A group of inner-city kids let loose at a pool without their parents is likely to be more wild and exuberant than suburban kids (regardless of race) who are there with their moms.
If these suburban families pay a hefty annual fee to belong to this club, they are obviously expecting a certain environment – not a WHITE environment, but a relatively disciplined, quiet one. And if the environment that they re paying for is not as they want, they have the right to leave. From a business point, it seems to me that the club would have their hands tied. The fact that they obviously knew the probable racial makeup of the group in advance illustrates that they were not racist.
My personal example is as follows – before I bought a house with a pool, I would drive to my mother-in-laws. A friend mentioned that our city had a really nice public pool, which was much closer. So, I took my daughter there. Honestly, I have no clue what race the kids were now (it’s been about 12 years), but knowing the makeup of the city, it was probably between 1/3 and 1/2 black. Regardless, it was not a pleasant time for my daughter. The other kids were rambunctious and scary to my daughter who was used to being alone, or with a few friends. Needless to say, we did not go back.
My point is that there are definitely other possible factors at play here. The fact that the kids who were turned away were black may just be an unfortunate coincidence. And honestly, I would hate the thought that they would be allowed to stay simply because they ARE black. That becomes reverse racism, in my opinion.
The quoted comments need to be looked at to determine the context of the situation. If the children were roughhousing around the mother’s child, and she said “I am worried they will hurt my kid”, that would be understandable. That is NOT racist under that circumstance.
It is an unfortunate situation, but I am not convinced that it was straight up white vs. black here.
Great perspective. Had it been my child at the pool that day, I might have hesitated to stay too. Not because I don’t want my kid associating with black people, but because an overcrowded pool and lots of kids running around near open water isn’t a great idea safety wise. If I showed up at the pool expecting a chill afternoon with my daughter and it turned into a screaming crazy circus, I’d be kinda put off too. But really, the problem lies with the club directors. Not only for their ignorant comments about the “complexion” of the club, but accepting 65 kids in the first place if they knew it would be too crowded. That’s a pretty big liability. The unfortunate thing from this is, other clubs might now turn away groups like these to avoid the liability.
“And honestly, I would hate the thought that they would be allowed to stay simply because they ARE black. That becomes reverse racism, in my opinion.”
Absolutely 100% dead on Mazzi.
Look..I have a tendency to believe that all of us have our own little quirks, and most especially when it comes to our kids. So I think this pool saga, as I’ve come to call it can be looked at in several different ways.
Some of the parents might have been pissed about the blacks being there…are they racist ? Perhaps. However, some of the other parents might have been pissed due to other factors concerning the mass of people that suddenly showed up. Are they racist ? Probably no.
The problem is, and I am not going to be popular for saying this, but I will regardless. Racism is such an easy card to play these days, and quite often people feel they have no recourse but to bend over backwards in order to accomodate minorities in order to avoid the dreaded RACIST accusation.
Why did this story make it on every single major news network, and yet the story about the mob of black teenagers attacking the white family did not ?
One of the problems I think is white guilt, and the unmitigated fear that some whites have of either being called a racist or being thought of as one. And reverse racism is just as bad if not worse because it’s more tolerated. I’ve often heard people say…”Well, whitey deserved it because of slavery”…blah blah blah.
I’m just so fucking sick and tired of the race card being played when someone doesn’t get what they want. It’s the same shitty victim status that some people have built their lives upon (Al Sharpton) and I’m not responsible for every setback and hardship that a minority may or may not face…whether real or imagined.
Like I said…whilst what I type might not be popular or politically correct, it’s honest…and I’d much rather be hated for what I am, than liked for what I’m not.
That is all.
*applause*
Well Darlin’ – I like you for who you are =)
Seriously, I am tired of it too. I know in my heart that I don’t discriminate against skin color, but you fuckin’ BET I discriminate by actions. I will also admit that I sometimes am a bit of a reverse racist – I will tolerate some behaviors in a black or ethnic person that I would find troubling in a white person. I guess because I can rationalize that they had a different environment growing up. But it does not go so far as to allow bad, disruptive or criminal behavior.
Anyway, it has become an epidemic. I remember during the election when the common sentiment was “if you don’t vote Obama, you are a racist”. WTF? I didn’t vote for him because I researched him and didn’t like his political stands. In my opinion, the fact that I didn’t vote for him was proof positive that I am NOT a racist – I looked past his color to his policies.
I think that we are heading to a real problem in this country. Race-baiting has become so ugly that many whites are beginning to resent it. People like me are starting to get sick of being branded “racist” when we point out reality, and the reality looks bad. I won’t ever stop judging people by “the content of their character”, but that goes both ways – good or bad.
Awwww…thank you Mazzie, and likewise. :)
Fellow non-Obama voter here as well. Funny though wasn’t it that if you didn’t vote for the messiah you were a RACISTTTTTTTTTTT, but if you did vote for him because he was black somehow you weren’t a racist. – Uh huh..yeah..makes perfect sense.
Fantastic post as usual.
Haha, that makes me even more of an asshole. I didn’t vote for McCain OR Obamarama. I voted for the Constitution Party :D
First let me say that I agree with just about everything you say here Maelstrom. No one hates Fat Al Sharpton (He use to be really big when he started out in New York, during the Tawana Brawly farce) more than I do – I think he’s the worst thing that’s happened to Black/White relations since Louis Farrakhan. And I think there is a double standard in the media, with one set of rules for what White folks can say and another for Blacks.
That said, I’m afraid all of these things are getting wrapped up in what happened in this case. Young kids were humiliated in degraded by adults at the pool, and it’s more than one kid who’s saying this. I just don’t think they’re lying. That’s the issue here and that’s what bothers me about this story. And since I believe that, I believe everything the club has done since then has been because of pressure from the membership, many of whom appear to be racists. Their actions re-enforced the message to the kids that they were not as good as the white kids. John Duesler’s statement was just plain stupid and insensitive.
Very well said Max…and I agree, if kids were humilated then that is absolutely intolerable.
I guess perhaps I have gotten to the point where I believe many people see racism behind very door and corner, and sometimes it just isn’t black and white. Pun intended.
However, thanks for including this story. It has gotten all of us talking, and that is definitely a very good thing. :)
Errrr…*every* not very.
Damn typo gremlins. Bastards !!!
Whatever the situation was, I would never swim at a swim club. The water is over-chlorinated and full of undisciplined children. Kids need attention and love from their parents. That’s why they crave for it.
All people are a bit racist…..
As a white person, I am a bit more afraid of a bunch of non-white punks than I am of a bunch of white punks. i feel safer with my own trash than I do someone else’s trash.
BUT real racism is when one holds someone to a different standard based on factors that have nothing to do with the behavior.
For example, it does NOT matter what color a litter bug is, all litterbugs are the same to me – rude bastards – does nt matter black, white, spanish, asian, gay, retarded – drop trash in my bushes you are a rude bastard – no exceptions.
So what should have offended the parents?
1. If the kids were out of control
2. The pool was crowded to start with and 65 more kids just made it worst
3. The club’s lack of management – someone knew 65 kids were coming and should have left a “hole” for the kids….
4. If some of the kids were racist… making remarks themselves about “whitey”
If the parents complained about out of control animals, not racists, but if they compained about all the jungle bunnies – racist.
But the club’s president is the one who sealed the deal with his comments……
Before you go off on a damning rampage, you might ask some probing questions to get the full picture, geniuses. This is a private swim club where members PAID to be able to swim in comfort safety. Even if a few racist comments MAY have been made doesn’t make the swim club culpable. For God’s sake, the president of the club is a rabid Obama supporter!!! Furthermore, perhaps the overcrowding issue was potentially dangerous for other swimmers. I used to belong to a suburban swim club that invited inner city camp children to use the facilities periodically. One day, I was there with my toddler daughter who was playing happily poolside. When the campers arrived, they were yelling, running and knocking each other into the pool within moments. My daughter was nearly pushed into the pool. I removed her from the scene to protect her. Does that make me a racist? And to add insult to injury, one these children defecated in the pool so that everyone had to get out. Nice, huh?
Look man, there’s no need to insult anyone. What I said in the italicized Editor’s Notes was strictly my opinion, but I wrote the story as even handedly as I possibly could. I think I gave The Valley Club’s side of the issue at least as much attention as the Creative Steps side. Why else would I have included the entire 15 minute press conference with John Duesler and his wife? I found the edited versions I saw were not nearly as good at allowing him to present his side of the story.
So whatever conclusion people came up with after reading the article, I believe they had more than enough information to work with.
Relax Gobnait…
This is a heavy issue, but there is no need to come out punching. Your story is valid, and it helps to tell the other side of the issue, so you don’t need to get all defensive up front, lol.
When I was in Huston back in 1993, I (white with cowboy boots on) went into the ghetto black neighborhood to get a haircut.
The workers were friendly and did remark that not many white people went to that section of town. My reply was
1. If this is your idea of a slum, I’ll gladly live in this nieghborhood – I’ll get a great value for my money
2. The people in the neighborhood were al so decent to me that I had no problems.
Anyway I got great service at a great price……. If I had been a racist then I would have paid an easy $10 or $20 more elsewhere…
So racism can cost…….
I truly believe that most people feel the way you did, Fred. I have never in my life met anyone who was unwilling to accept a black person if they “acted right”.
I will confess something here that I rarely tell people. My ex husband was a racist. That contributed heavily to the reasons I divorced him. He was a really great guy other than that, but it got annoying. Now – here is the interesting part – when I met him, he had a black roommate. His best friend since he was about 14 years old was a very dark-skinned Pakistani. Several close friend of his over the 24 years we were married were in groups he professed to dislike. He would talk trash about all kinds of people (black, middle-eastern, Jewish, etc) and yet, he was always willing to accept INDIVIDUALS from those groups.
It is, in my experience, only a small handful of people who are so insecure and such personal failures that they will discriminate solely based on a skin color or ethnic background, no matter how decent the individual is.
One racist I knew (a white man) had the utmost respect for his black coworker. He went on to state that if all people could live like this person (note he did NOT say me) the world would be a much better place.
So was this man really that racist or did he not like the immage most racial groups had?
This is so funny! The article does not even get the name of the club write. There are no tennis courts there, genius! Its a dumpy little club with a pool and a tiny playground. But don’t worry about the facts standing in the way of a good story. Let’s draw sweeping conclusions based on a poorly phrased statement and unidentified individuals who may have made racist statements. Even if there was a racist or two at the club, let’s conclude that “everyone” there was racist.
I wonder why the press didn’t interview anyone other than the Plaintiffs, I mean, victims. Why didn’t they interview club members? Why didn’t they report that the other camps (predominately white memebrs) also had their contracts cancelled? Why didn’t they write a story about the minorities who do belong to the club?
It is really wrong to call someone a racist. It is easy accusation to make. It is a shame that this has become a money grab. At least the lawyers will make out well
“It is really wrong to call someone a racist”
I disagree. It’s perfectly fair to call them a racist if they ARE one. But, it’s wrong to jump to the conclusion that they are racist when they don’t accommodate a minority for legitimate reasons.
Hey, I made a mistake – the club has been identified by no less than three different names in the newspapers. You could have just told me and I would have been happy to change it – it’s not the first time I made an mistake like that, and I’m always happy to correct them when they get pointed out to me. But I guess you were just intent on being a dickhead, which you succeeded in doing quite well.
So how about showing me anywhere else I mis-stated the facts.
Max – don’t you know that you must fly down there and double check all your facts???
I mean you do own this domain so you must be rich….. Aren’t all domain owners rich? Shouldn’t domain owners pay more taxes???
Seriously when I see the work you did with my story I sent you, I know that you did a lot if work to find the diamond in the lump of coal I sent….
I know that you welcome correction, so if there is a mistake in a story people need not get their undies in such a bunch…..
From what I understand Max doesn’t own the site or the domain name. He just runs things here for the admin who does own it.
Then he should submit his expense receipts to admin!
LOL – Thanks Fred, that really means a lot to me, coming from you. I’m getting used to guys like Pete – if I learned anything this past 10 months or so it that I better grow a thick skin real quick or I’ll end up quivering under my bed hiding from “Them”.
I have another off beat story that I will have to send in once I get my rear into gear…….
Could we send Chris Dodd to hell, I can think of 700,000,000,000 reasons he should go there?
This was definitely racial. Listen to part 1 of the interview by the Duesler’s. The President of the Board of Directors states, “It became clear after the children came” then he changed it “After a few of the camps had come”. Adults need to stop this attitude and let all children live in their children’s world where no bias exsist. Parents don’t feed bias to your children. Praise them every instant you can for expressing themselves in their own children’s world. The bible says, “we must become as children to enter heaven.”
For that to happen, children need to stop growing up into stereotypes.
I didn’t watch any of the videos until after I had thoroughly read the story. here is what I observed:
In the first video (of the children and the parents) I see angry adults who are comforting their children for the terrible racist thing that happened to them.
As a parent that would be the LAST thing I would say to my kid, even if I thought it was true. Instead I would tell my child what the director said – that there were simply too many kids at the pool, and unfortunately they couldn’t go back. Why the HELL would I want to give my child the idea that people might not like them because of their color? WHY? I would want my child to believe that they are capable of doing anything they set out to do, and I would never give them the idea that they might not be able to because of someone else’s stupid opinions.
I guaran-damn-tee you that the parents of successful minorities didn’t tell their kids “it’s OK to fail because some white people hate us”.
The next (2) videos left me feeling really bad for that couple. I believe 100% that they are sincere. I believe 100% that they tried to do the right thing. And I believe 100% that they are very upset about this. If you listen, the reporter says that Ms. Wright complimented him on trying his best to help the kids. She’s the one who is screaming the loudest about racism in this situation.
So which is it? He was not a racist when he was reaching out to her, but he’s a racist when the plan didn’t work out? Does it work like that? Can an individual’s basic racism be turned on and off based on the circumstances? Or is it more likely that someones PERCEPTION of racism changes depending on the situation?
It sounds to me like these people tried to do a good thing, but when it didn’t work out they got slapped in the face. How many private swim clubs do you suppose will be reaching out to inner-city kids now? Only the seriously stupid ones.
I agree with you, Mazzi….if I felt sure in my heart that my kid was being discriminated against, the LAST thing I would do is point that out to them. I’d let my kid go on his merry way thinking, “OK, too many kids”, then deal with it between the adults. It’s sad they are making the kids acutely aware of all this. It’s probably going to make for a lot of angry young adults who turn around and hate whites- which just keeps the whole racism viscious circle going.
I am suspicious this is about money for the camp.
That’s why I went down as saying all of these adults are at fault for different reasons.
And it’s always kids who end up paying when adults screw up :-(
Yes, Maz, but it was some of the kids who initially said they heard the racial comments – how do the parents explain that?
I have to sat that I’m surprised that you’ve taken the position you have on this story, but as always, I respect the hell out of your opinion. It’s made me go back a re-examine my research to make sure I haven’t missed anything. Whether or not we end up on different sides of the fence of this particular issue, it can’t change the fact that you’re one of the smartest and most moral people I’ve had the privilege of getting to know on the website.
Awwwwwwww! I can throw that right back at you Max. You are one of my favorite people ever =)
Listen Max – here’s the thing about kid’s statements. When were they said? Was it before or after their parents decided that they had been discriminated against and told them so?
Also, what was the context under which the comments were made? And how accurate are the retelling of the statements? How much is influenced by the anger that is swirling around them?
Kids pick up on this shit. (That’s what I was saying before). If they have been taught that white people hate them and want to be mean to them, then how are THEY going to analyze a comment? If a mother said “I am afraid that [all those rowdy kids] will hurt little Susie”, how could the city kid be expected to interpret that as anything except as “I’m scared they might do something to my child.”?
Same with mom saying “who are all of these black kids?” To me that is not a racist question. If 50-60 black kids descend on a pool that is used to 5-10, how else would you put it? It would be a legitimate way of grouping these unknown kids. It only becomes sinister when someone chooses to interpret it that way. Consider the exact same situation in reverse. Lets say a busload of white kids swooped in to a predominately black pool, and one of the black mom’s was confused. Would anyone say she was racist to ask “who are all these white kids?”
I think that this is a real concerted effort on the part of the media to make a racist problem where none exists. Contrast that to the black group who beat up the white family and made serious racial comments to them (which the media is afraid to touch). If that situation was reversed, everyone would understand in an instant that it was wrong. Period.
Anyway… I have to run now, so no more comments for a while. (Hehe – I am not opiniated, I am just a loudmouth). Thanks for the interesting morning =)
I don’t agree with the parents that allow their child to lean on the oppression crutch. However, I would have a seriously hard time trying to explain racist remarks to my child if they heard them. Bottom line is, the pool should have simply said (regardless of racism or not) “There are too many kids for us to handle” and the parents should have explained it as such and found an alternate location to take the kids swimming.
I personally think that a few kids heard racist remarks from a few moronic parents who belong to the club. Then it took off like wildfire, and when the subject of overcrowding came up, it was angrily disbelieved by the camp people. This comes off as something that became something much bigger than it should have.
No matter what, the club president is dumb for not warning residents there would be a surge of 65 extra kids in the pool that day, no matter if they were purple with green dots.
From what I’ve read and seen about this case, the children told their parents about the racist comments they overheard while at the pool. I think the parents of these African American kids did the right thing by talking with them about what they heard and honestly discussing the injustice involved. In doing so, the parents are preparing the kids for some of the future challenges they’ll face as black Americans. Yes, this is 2009 and we have a black president–but racisim is still alive and well, especially in suburban America, and it’s the unfortunate reality these kids will have to deal with during their lives.
Reading this thread has been very interesting…..I’m going to go with a few people on here that thinks it’s kind of some of both at fault here. I do think the club screwed up by not notifying their (paying) residents. I do believe that some of the parents there probably were bitching about the “black/hispanic kid” thing. I also think some parents simply were nervous about their toddlers getting “ran over” in such an environment with SO many older kids. I don’t think the club president is racist, per se- he did know it was inner city kids when he took the money. If he was a total racist, he would have scoffed at that up front. BUT- that was the biggest foot-in-the mouth I’ve seen in a LONG time. Either that came out horribly wrong (complexion…geez) because he had the accusation of being racist on his mind, or he may be more racist than even he thought- Obama supporter or not. I just feel bad for the kids who thought they had a day of swimming, and then the next minute NOT. They probably had to go back and do artwork or board games, and that sucks when you’re a kid ready to splash all day. I think it’s kind of lame there is a lawsuit now…you can’t tell me these kids haven’t been influenced/questioned relentlessly because now there’s lawyers and potential money involved. Sad.
Max: You sound like a real genius. Why don’t you call John yourself? Or at least do some background info before you write something. The Club name is a matter of public record. Anyone could look it up.
And I sorry if my tone offends. I feel bad for the Deuslers, WHO VOLUNTEER THEIR TIME. I feel bad for the members of the club, including the kids, who will not be able to swim there. And I feel really bad for the kids of the day care, but they are being exploited by greedy lawyers.
The Club has invited the kids back, offerred to mediate it the dispute, and even have an open forum discussion to resolve this. I wonder if both black, white and hispanic families sitting down togather discussing racism would have been a better solution than turn the matter over to lawyers. Think about what an opportunity that would have been for the children to learn a valuable lesson about diversity.
Of course, your probably too stupid to see how a goldren opportunity was missed.
Nope, I’m no genius Pete, but I’m smart enough to recognize an asshole when I see one, asshole. Like I said, you could have just let me know about my mistake, like others have done in the past, but you chose to act like an 13-year-old instead. Too bad too, because it looks like you have some valid points to make. So really, from the bottom of my heart, allow me to to tell you to go fuck yourself Pete.
“Of course, your probably too stupid to see how a goldren opportunity was missed.”
“Your probably too stupid” (sic)
Ummm..anyone else catching the irony here ?
Are you really that obtuse? Do you not see that the least of your mistakes is the missing name of the club?
I realize that you cannot retract what you wrote because that would take an extraordinary amount of courage and self-awareness, but maybe you could at least acknowledge that there may be a lot to this story than you first thought and perhaps your conclusions were a bit hasty. Maybe you could write about Althea Wright’s background….if she has been in prior litigation, it would be public record and available on the internet.
And it would be refreshing if you would refrain from vulgarity and have an adult discussion.
You know, when you show up with both guns blazing and being personally insulting, you shouldn’t cry foul when that person gets personal right back at ya.
That being said, I would be very interested to know if Althea Wright *has* been in prior litigation….especially if it was related to racial incidents.
Good point……
You see, that’s what I mean – you assumed that I just read an article or two and wrote a knee-jerk reaction story, when the truth is I did my homework, and based my conclusion on evidence that was pretty reliable. For instance, I didn’t pay attention to anything the parents of the kids said, or the protesters – they obviously had an agenda. The only quotes that I used were the children who were there and Alethea Wright – who, by the way, has absolutely no record of any lawsuits in Pennsylvania and nothing that shows up on the Justia Federal District Court search website. I’m confident there is nothing in that article that isn’t a verifiable fact.
But what really annoyed me about your comments, Pete, is the fact that I bent over backwards to write a story that presented both sides of the issue. I recorded and split the raw video of John Duesler’s press conference so I could show the entire thing instead of the edited version. I did that because I wanted Duesler to have the best chance I could give him to present his side of the story.
The editor’s notes are my chance to voice my personal opinion – if you have a problem with that, then we can talk about it, but don’t accuse me of being some hack writer with an agenda. I work too hard on these stories to take that shit from anyone.
Thanks for looking that up, about prior lawsuits. That may have spoke volumes if this was kind of a “habit” of hers. I’m glad that’s not the case.
I still say the whole think sucks.
Yeah Smiley, whatever the real story ends up being, the kids end up as the real victims.
Those poor kids.
Smiley: Perhaps I did come out a little “strong”, but I find it so offensive what is going on. People reach conclusions without any facts, just to make themselves feel morally superior.
Those poor kids. I have so much that I could say, but I can sum it up pretty easily.
Racism sucks.
The comment about “What are all these black kids doing here?” does raise an eyebrow towards racism, but having worked at a daycare before, I know that daycare children can be on the wild side. Especially those whose only source of attention is from their daycare providers and not their parents; they’re neglected and it makes some of them quite mean. It might be that the parents saw a bus full of daycare children and groaned at the thought of having a wild bunch of kids be disruptive and cause mischief. I don’t doubt that some were put off immediately by the color of their skin alone, because of that particular comment, but I do understand the concern of not wanting one’s child around another child who is aggressive or trouble-making.
my question is, if it was overcrowded originally with the extra 65 kids, why would they ask them back again, with the same situation? what are they going to do, tell the members that the pool is off-limits for the day for them? its hard to tell one way or another whether it is a racist issue or a liability issue, since nowadays almost everything is about race. so what, our skin colors are different? that shouldnt matter this day and age…all that stuff happened decades ago, its part of history, so go forward and make a new future. and especially when a lawsuit is involved, it gets down and dirty real quick
Has anyone contacted the NAACP? I’m sure they will have a field day with these ignorant ass white folks! Guess what? I’m white!!! I however, like Martin Luther King said, “don’t judge people by the color of their skin but for the context of their character”. It’s 2009 and for God sake, get the fuck over it already. We have a wonderful black president. Times, they are a changing. LIVE WITH IT
Lori… seriously?
What?
1. The use of the term “ignorant ass white folks”. I’m sure some of the parent’s reactions were NOT based on race given the discussions on the over-crowding of the pool.
2. Your use of the phrase “ignorant ass white folks” flies in the face of the quote you posted regarding judging based on character and not skin color. If you really believed in that quote, you would have simply said “ignorant ass folks” as their skin color would not have been relevant.
3. For that matter, the NAACP flies in the face of that quote as their very nature is based around skin color. It’s in their name.
4. “Wonderful” is a very subjective word to describe the president. There are many members of the ever-increasing unemployment rate who would argue the point of him being wonderful. And he isn’t wonderful simply for being black, which was kind of the allusion you made in your post.
Does that answer your “what”?
1. No comment
2. No comment
3. At its 1911 incorporation, there was only one Black member of the board of directors of the NAACP–most of the board were white and Jewish. The “Colored” people, while focused on Black suffering since 1890, specifically referenced that White, Yellow and Brown were colors of peoples as well.
The 1911 charter fairly states their intentions:
And if they stick to that charter, I don’t think either of us would have a problem. I’ll admit some excesses, but attacking the name misses the point.
4. Do you really want to blame this president for unemployment rates like this? I mean Reagan had higher numbers during the second year of his term and the country clearly blamed Carter for it then. We haven’t even gotten to the point where the former president faced down 9/11, and Ms. Rice blamed the previous administration for the intelligence failure. Perhaps on 9/12 you can start blaming this President for the financial failings that inarguably began on another’s watch? If you want to be truly generous, how about June of 2010, relative to when Reagan began “turning” the economy around at its bottom?
3. Even had it not included whites, Jews, etc in their incorporation, I would have said their intentions at the start were noble. I think the organization has been twisted since then though and used by many blacks as a negative tool. Oddly I never read stories of Latinos or Asians in regards to the NAACP, though you would think they would fall under the color banner as well.
4. Is Obama to blame for the economy? Of course not. Do I personally think he is going about fixing it the wrong way? Yes. The numbers have passed his own stated projections. And I think he is focusing on helping the wrong people. But that is just my opinion.
3. part 1 Conceded, the NAACP has from time to time stepped out of line of the intention of the Niagara movement.
part 2. There were some early efforts to help Asians, but the black financial community in Harlem (including some noted rum runners) and even some of the White membership, tried to focus the efforts on Black participation in the American Dream.
As a side note, latinos were getting a very, very bad shake from Mormons in 1910-1914 in Utah at the exact same time, especially with regards to Tequila and Marijuana laws that seemed designed to punish Latinos more than whites.
4. A reasoned and reasonable point. I felt the same way when Bush was giving the TARP money out. The same way when Clinton was “helping out” the VC interests. The same way when Bush Senior was bailing out oil companies. The same way when Reagan was bailing out defense contractors and junk bonds salesmen. I’m only a social Liberal and a Fiscal conservative, which means I haven’t had a horse in this race since before I was born. Either Tax and spend liberals or Tax cut and spend “Conservatives”. Arguably the liberals have been kinder to my finances.
Ok, let me re-phrase it. THOSE IGNORANT ASS MOTHER FUCKING PEOPLE. There, how’s that!
Wow…I love seeing how white people react to this. Especially the ones who say “Im not racist but I dont like ghetto black people..”
I have many, MANY “ghetto” black friends and they are some of the best people I have ever known.
They have helped me so much, and they would literally give the skin off of their backs for me.
I have also had many good white friends, hispanics, asians, etc.
For the record I am mixed [half black/ half white] and I have dealt with racism many times.
YOU ARE WRONG if you are a racist black person, a racist white person etc.
But the attitude of some of you white people on here is ridiculous.
“They should call the NAACP” or “I doubt they actually said that”
You know what, they probably did.
I’ve heard it before. When I was about 10 a few friends and I wanted to have some money in our pockets for the summer, so we decided to sell cold beverages to people on the road.
This white woman drove by and said “where’d you steal it from?” and drove off.
Truth is racism still exists and many white people, and other people of other ethnicities still think like this.
It sickens to me to hear you say “Oh most of friends are black people who other blacks consider to act white.”
WTF?
But you dont like “gangsta blacks, eses”
MOST OF THESE PEOPLE ARE GOOD FUCKING PEOPLE.
Why should it matter that someone speaks a little loud, or “improper”?
Some of these people would be willing to save your fucking life.
UGHHHH Im glad I was raised the way I was, but even my own family does some dumb shytt from time to time.
They say I should date someone of my own race, well I just happen to really like white guys.
I dont understand how people can judge by skin color.
When I look at people I dont see skin color. I do not see the color of their eyes, or the texture of their hair.
I see a nice person, a rude person, a stuck up bitch. But I didnt dislike the bitch because she was hispanic.
The human race sickens me sometimes….
The fact that this country elected a black guy for president pretty much tells me that we aren’t a very racist country anymore….whether or not I agree with the results are a different matter entirely.
Though I wonder….if I say I didn’t vote for Obama and I’m white, am I a “racist”?
NO you are not.
My uncle didnt vote for Obama and he’s black so….
Im not one of those people who cry racism if you didnt vote for him, so dont try to shove that card down my throat.
My question was more rhetorical than anything else. And I’m not shoving anything down your throat.
Chill…it’s just the internet.
Racism goes both ways, all the fucking time. I used to work with a black guy who thought white people all came from mountains and had forked tails. TAILS! I’ve been called a “cracker” in my boston neighborhood more than once. I’ve even had a guy I was supposed to train at work tell me he doesn’t trust white people. Even if I had chosen to go to a national news outlet with my story, no one would have given 2 shits. I hope that if anything comes of this, the camp organizers and the pool staff do have a sit down meeting and hash it out like adults. If everyone stopped hiding behind the race card all the time we wouldn’t have all these bullshit stories to begin with.
Yes dearie, I agree with you.
I’ve met black racists as well. They sickened me as well.
Some black people dont like me because I date white guys and I listen to metal. And my fav rapper happens to be Eminem.
I am very, very much aware that it goes both ways.
I was referring to the bullshytt comments I had read on here though.
Eminem is awesome.
I knowwwwwwwwwwwww right?
“It sickens to me to hear you say “Oh most of friends are black people who other blacks consider to act white.”
WTF?”
You are getting sick at the wrong people here. I didn’t coin the terms “Uncle Tom” or “White-washed”. Blacks did to describe other black people they felt turned their back on their heritage. It is tossed around way too frequently still to describe blacks that other black people think act too white. People like my buddy who is black and talks normal. No ebonics or anything like that. He is a gamer and totally into computers. And he dresses very preppy. Luckily he is so laid back, he doesn’t care much what ignorant people think about him.
As for “gangsta blacks, esses”, they aren’t the salt of the earth that you try to paint them to be. They are good to their friends until crossed. My brother ran with a gang. He even eventually hit OG status. His friends totally had his back…until he tried to leave the lifestyle. One night when he refused to go break into homes, they beat the crap out of him. My dad and I drove to pick him up at 2am. There is something unnerving about seeing an adult man cry, especially your brother. It wasn’t just from his injuries, but from the frustration of the betrayal of his so called friends. So don’t try to tell me that we are all blind to how these people really are and you are the enlightened one.
I agree with this totally.
OMG stapler. You sound like the retarded spoiled, city white kid you undoubtedly are.
WTF is a ‘BLACK ESE?’ OMG never go to Compton, they would eat you and I’d have to say I’d ROFL my ass off just because you’re being such an ignorant prick and can’t see past your nose on this one.
“He even eventually hit OG status. ” OMG ROFLROFLROFLROFLROFLROFLROFL WTF IS THIS????
BTW, if you were wondering, I’m not black… but you and some of the “non racist” people in this world are some of the funniest mofo’s out there.
Keep in mind, every “race” has it’s trailer trash, and I think you, my friend have the wrong idea, and are sterotyping a little too fucking hard. Stay in Utah. It’s for your own good.
Why are you telling Stapler that he’s stereotyping too hard… then turn around and call him a retarded white boy who should never go to Compton and stay in Utah? Why not? Because gangsters live there and they would kill him? And all the nerdy white peope flock to Utah? Gee, that sounds like… stereotyping! As a side note… no one in their right mind should ever go to Compton if they don’t have to. It’s not because it’s “stereotyping” it’s because Compton is overall a shitty ass place to live.
Moop,
Exactly !!! Even the gangstas kill each other in Compton…and they don’t want to live there either.
Jesus…I wonder if it’s as bad as Flint.
The “upside” to Compton might be the warmer weather, but that’s about all I got!
I WOULD RATHER LIVE IN COMPTON THAN PA. WHY??? Less jackasses. AMAZING AMIRITE?
And I was mostly joking about the retarded white boy part… you don’t need to be white to be spoiled and retarded, nor ignorant obviously =)
Either way, my daughter is eight races. Care to call me racist? Didn’t think so, thanks.
Actually I submit that the mormons flock to utah, which is what stapler is.
And I still want to know what a ‘black esse’ is?
kthxbai.
I didn’t call you racist. I don’t care if you’re racist or not, really. People who aren’t racist don’t care if someone accuses them of it. I don’t know anything about you except you have some sort of deep rooted hatred for PA and you call people out for stereotyping, then hit them back with more of the same. I really don’t care how many races your daughter is either. What does that have to do with anything? You don’t have to hate on people’s skin tone to be considered prejudice, which was the sentiment I was deriving from your comments directed towards Stapler, who chose to share a firsthand experience and got attacked for it. I’m not trying to be some laptop gangster or trying to act like a hardass, do I care if you choose to get nasty? Don’t think so, thanks :)
Stereotyping implies that i haven’t taken into consideration many of Stapler’s posts in which he has exposed little bits of himself, so to speak. And I’ve read a very very many of stapler’s posts. Not all of them, especially when he gets into it with Max, but many just the same. Stapler has a problem with certain aspects of my personality, clearly, as I have a few with his. Do I hate him? Nah…I did intend to imply very strongly that I feel he is naive and being rather stupid about some of his points….That being said, I am truly disturbed by the idea of half of the people writing here discussing how bad certain colors and classes of people are. To include you.
OK, but just because someone dresses a certain way doesn’t mean they are a gangster… I won’t even reach so far as to say “black esse” because unless you’re talking a blaxican gangster, I really have no idea wtf that means. And just because someone HAS been involved in a gang doesn’t mean they are scum of the earth… but by the way this shit is reading, so many people feel that way. Oh and don’t forget the reverse racism, and the token white person who is embarrassed to be white! Has it ever occurred to anyone here that if they were a little less focused on these things, racism would be an issue of the past?
If his brother got beaten up, it wasn’t because he was hanging out with black people, it’s because he was hanging out with people who chose to break the LAW. I’d say it was the brother’s fault as much as it was the jerks he chose to hang out with, all things considered, and the man learned a hard lesson… Doesn’t matter the color, once again. But again, people choose to make it that way. Or make it classist. Let’s just go ahead and say poor people break lots of laws? Or are violent… hmmmm how many obnoxious ways can we interpret this.
“deep rooted hatred for PA “… Agreed, I do. I’ll be happy as a pig in shit to go back to Cali. Regardless of all the random crap, there is a LOT more racism here than what I’m used to. And many many many other factors…. That being said, I wouldn’t doubt that a few of the more ignorant parents there made racist comments that those poor kids heard and get to remember for the rest of their lives. Maybe the parents overreacted to the stupidity…. maybe not. Maybe the inner city kids were being too rowdy in the pool. Maybe not… we don’t know for sure. Regardless of that, it is the PERCEPTION those poor kids received that they weren’t good enough to go swimming in the rich people’s pool that they have to live with, and I bet that feels like SHIT.
I sure as hell hope the older ones don’t come by this site….
*sigh*
“That being said, I am truly disturbed by the idea of half of the people writing here discussing how bad certain colors and classes of people are. To include you.”
Never once did I make a single comment that implied in any way that any people of any class or color were bad. So that to me indicates that now you’re just grasping, and haven’t really cared enough to read anything I’ve had to say.
But it doesn’t bother me. Now I don’t need to continue a discussion with you, because you obviously haven’t understood a damn word I’ve written. So take the last word and run with it. Whatever you need to do.
Moop, you have to consider the source whenever you’re dealing with anything stapler says, and anyone’s reaction to that. For one thing, I wouldn’t be surprised if he made the whole brother story up. And Alanna and he have had exchanges before, so there’s bad blood there already – mostly thanks to stapler’s dishonest methods of arguing his point. Well, he really never actually has a point, it always just about he argument with him. So I’d keep all this in mind when you’re looking at anyone’s interaction with this website’s resident troll/drama queen/thorn in the side.
Max- You are to the point of calling me a liar now with no basis for that. You are becoming more pathetic as time goes on. How long do you think you will continue to command respect on here as long as you continue to behave like a kid?
Alanna- Again, read my response to what you keep referring to as “black esses”. You left a word out of that by the way. And naive? How is an opinion naive based off of first hand experience? The gang my brother was in was a pre-dominantly latino gang. And no one said he was beaten up over race. The story was to counter ?’s point about how we all misunderstand gangsters and they are actually good people.
And for the record, Utah has one of the largest Polynesian gang communities in the whole country. And Tongans and Samoans gangstas can be quite ruthless and they are built like mack trucks.
The phrase “gangsta black esses” was taken from the OPs(?) post. I was replying to the term SHE used.
You don’t know what OG is? If you don’t know what that is, how are you even going to comment on anything related to gangs when that is a common part of them?
In this case, your ignorance is blazing brightly.
And wtf is your definition of a “black gangsta”?
A black man who says nigga and wears his jeans a little too low?
Because of this they are of lesser value than your computer geek friend?
Pleaseee you are an undercover bigot. Might not be fully racist but you’re prejudiced to some extent.
Every black man that fits the above description isnt automatically a gat holding, pistol toting NIGGA on your damn street.
My cousin dresses that way, says the word occasionally, and is in college, has a job, and has had probably like one fight in hid whole entire life.
Douche…You’re an ass and Im not arguing with you.
Im gonna enjoy my vacation…I’ve found that stupidity is contagious…
I’d rather hang out with a black computer geek, as you put it, than one with a do-rag on his, pants to his knees, saying “Sup nigga, got a 40 fo me dawg?”. That IS a stereotype and people live up to it. And I have no desire to be around those that do. Heck, I avoided my brother when he acted like that.
And I am prejudiced to a degree. EVERYONE is. It may not always be on skin color, but we discriminate on other things. Every time we decide who to date or befriend, we are showing a form of discrimination. My desire to hang with preppy black guys over gangsta black guys is not any more prejudiced that your desire to date white guys over black guys. Probably less so even.
I agree with like 1/8 of your statement.
And again, you’re an ass because I have dated latinos, blacks and whites so far and I have no problem dating any other race. I merely stated that I am MORE ATTRACTED TO white men.
K thanks, Im going to the bahamas so i wont be able to respond to you.
Nice disagreeing with you.
Jerk :]
I’m confused. How can you say this:
“I dont understand how people can judge by skin color. When I look at people I dont see skin color. I do not see the color of their eyes, or the texture of their hair”
and then say this:
“I just happen to really like [to date] white guys”
If you really are a person who is “color-blind” than why do you only date white guys? Is there something different about them? It’s can’t be their appearance, since you said you don’t “see” that.
Look, you have the right to date whoever you like. You even have the right to think that blond guys are the hottest. But you can’t have it both ways. You look at them, their skin and their hair and their eyes – or else you wouldn’t limit yourself to white guys.
Nothing personal, but that is some seriously hypocritical shit.
O m g you’re stupid.
I do not ONLY date white guys, I guess I should have phrased that better.
I tend to be attracted to them more, everyone has a type dearie.
So hypocrite my ass. I dont see a white man and say OH MY LORD HE’S WHITE I WANT HIM.
stfu, I used to like you :]
Nope sorry, your post is still full of shit. You can’t have it both ways. You can’t say that you don’t even LOOK at skin color, and then say that you are attracted to white guys. Unless you are saying that there is a non-visible difference between whit and black guys – like intelligence or sense of humor or whatever. And THAT is racist.
I know quite a few blacks who are considerably smarter than most white people. But that’s because I judge my friends by a criteria that includes personality, intelligence and humor. But I sure as hell know whether they are black, Asian or white, lol. I see their color – in fact I ask them lots of questions about being minority race – how it affected their schooling, their personal life, their kids… just like I talk to my gay friends about being gay. It is a FACT that they are a different race, and to pretend otherwise would be kind of stupid.
Anyway, sorry you don’t like me anymore, but my life is not a personality contest. If you can’t appreciate someone who tells it like it is, then.. oh well.
Full of shytt?
No dearie, as I said above I have dated whites, latinos, and blacks so far and I have no problem with dating any other race.
As long as they’re intelligent, attractive, and goal oriented i dont give a shytt.
MOST of them have been white though so therefore I am saying this is probably my type.
I didnt mention the other races before because that is not what I was being shunned for.
I found it to be irrelevant.
Now goodbye :]
Oh, and if a black person comes on here talking crazy I will scream on them too. The first post seems a little one sided, and I apologize for that, but really….Some of your comments are just a blatant smack in the face to me.
You say one thing, and you kill your previous statement with the very next sentence.
You all can bite my head off, I still love the site, just not necessarily the people who inhabit it.
So if the problem here was ONLY overcrowding at the pool, why did the people running it simply ask the day camp staff to bring the kids in smaller groups the next time?
Well I watched this on CNN the other day and they had video of the CSDC kids at the pool. The pool was shoulder to shoulder kids.
And I guess the members of the club complained that they were not enjoying the facilities they paid and joined for.
So, they refunded the CSDC money.
So now once again the media creates a story that does not exist in my opinion.
Yet another case of people with entitlement issues crying “racism” because they didn’t get their way.
That’s just a ridiculous statement – it has nothing to do with what happened here.
Yes it does.
Bottom line is, if the parents were acting this way and their children seen and heard it, well they just planted a seed that is like a weed, it will always there. Funny thing is racisim is taught and usually by the people the children see as heroes and role models. People they look up to and want to be like. PARENTS!!! Anyway here is a story that really taught me that children do not know or care that someone is different unless some one tells them.
First of all we are hispanic. My son came racing to the car the first day of kindergarten and told me that he had a friend and he was mexican. I started to scold him for not saying hispanic, when he says “look there he is, that is my best friend”. My son’s friend is african american I asked, why do you think that he is hispanic and my son says ” look in the mirror mom, we are the same color! Once again, I am amazed that a child can teach us tolerance and we can only hope to be someday as wise as an innocent child!
Not to be an elitist asshole but… I blame the East Coast in general… or maybe just PA… this place is fucking disgusting. Again, I’m from California, and we just DONT DO CERTAIN THINGS. For example:
I walked into a Perkins restaurant the other day…… been there a couple of times, not pleased with the customer service but whatever I wanted a WAFFLE OK???? Anyways, so I walked in and stood a couple of feet away from the podium that the greeter person is at. There was a group of five to my right so I figured there’d be a wait, no biggie. Luckily, there was apparently no wait for only one or two people. Great, right? So the lady who entered after me, who appeared to be, oddly, fully caucasian STEPS RIGHT IN FRONT OF ME AND IS SEATED.
Ok, well that’s annoying. I wait patiently for the greeter person to get back, when this sixty something woman steps RIGHT IN FRONT OF ME ALSO and also gets seated by the server, who appeared to be the same age. Little pissed at this point. Keep in mind, I’m just about nine months pregnant. A younger greeter came up and seated me. I call my husband… he reminds me that this is the place where they asked him if he wanted SALSA with his pancake breakfast (and yes, we listened to see if they offered it to any other person getting seated, which they didn’t)… so I leave.
I’m not going to scream racism… but…. at the very minimum, people’s rudeness levels are like 500 percent what they are in SoCal. Although… the first two days we were here someone unscrewed several bolts on one of my tires…. /shrug
Either way PA sucks and I’m not surprised they’d get all fucktardish on a bunch of little kids trying to have some summer fun.
Just to clarify something: I usually work as what would probably be considered lower management in corporations. DO YOU KNOW HOW FAST I WOULD HAVE FIRED SOMEONE WHO ACTED LIKE THIS? OR AT THE MINIMUM CHEWED THEIR ASS SO HARD THEY COULDN’T SIT DOWN FOR A WEEK?!
Let’s just say it would be really fast. =)
alanna… lolol love the post… “but whatever I wanted a WAFFLE OK???? ” yeah girl i hear you, but where is perkins, never heard of it.
Perkins is a restaurant, think “Denny’s” but not 24 hours, and slightly dirtier than “Coco’s”.
Thanks. I knew better before I walked in, I swear, but that waffle and syrup was calling me…
I’m really sorry that happened to you sweetie. If it makes you feel any better, similar things have happened to me, and I am white and blonde.
The thing that happens most frequently, and which I go nuts over, is when I am standing in a line at a store, and a cashier opens a new lane. (I am always the next in line – it’s like Murphy’s Law or something). When the cashier calls the people in back of me over – the people who have NOT been waiting as long – it makes me crazy. It’s so damned unfair.
Now, I am going to ask a tough question here. Mind you, I am not “schooling” you. I know that you are a pragmatic person, and I don’t believe for one second that you align yourself with the race victims. This is just for discussion’s sake.
What if I were a minority, and the cashier and the people behind me were white? Lets say I had been raised with the assumption that white people were a bunch of bigoted fuckers. What perspective would I take in that case? Naturally, I would assume it was because I was a minority, right? I mean, that would be a logical conclusion based on perspective. Instead of thinking “that cashier is a lazy, incompetent idiot”, I would say “that cashier is a bigoted idiot”, right?
Now that’s not to say that the cashier is NOT an ignorant racist – surely that’s possible. But to assume that is the reason for the slight is not allowing for any other possibility.
As far as what happened at Perkins, with your husband, I would have made a HUGE PUBLIC SCENE about it. No kidding, lol. I would have had the restaurant manager kowtowing at my feet offering me a free meal, and whatever else. OR, I would have looked at the waiter and said as loud as possible “SALSA? Who eats salsa with pancakes Buddy? Is it because we are HISPANIC?” I guarantee it would be the last time that guy would make an assumption like that.
I prefer public humiliation myself. In my example above, I usually will call out the cashier on it, or go to the manager to complain. If I am standing at the deli case and someone butts ahead, I will say “exCUSE me? I was waiting, thanks” and proceed with my order. Truly I think it’s because no one ever calls these selfish turds out on jumping line, or the employee’s out on allowing it, that we have so much of it these days.
Most wouldn’t assume Mexicans eat salsa with their pancakes. I would bet a shiny silver dollar that it is a common request by the Mexicans that come into that restaurant and the server tried to be helpful by offering it.
Logic says there were no other Mexicans in there that day ordering pancakes when Alanna was listening for it. Because had there been, they would have been asked, whether for racist or helpful reasons. Now there is the chance their server was a blatant racist, but I’m more inclined to think it was a common request that they got and they were simply offering it.
Denver has Perkins and I loved it. Used to eat there nightly at one job where we worked until midnight. Ours was open 24-7 and it was quite clean.
I am from Texas and we are better than this. The Northeast is pretty different for sure. Many cities in the Northeast and North are very segregated, even down to nationality!
I read this on the way back from my summer trip and I thought “how foul”. What redneck bastards are living in this kind of universe????
Ignorant bastards. Wanna-be rich people. They are not worth nothing as much as their sputum.
I’m beginning to feel the first twinges of regret that I wrote this article. I’m glad it’s started some healthy discussion on the topic of race and racism, and some people have asked some hard questions, and others have given some honest answers. But if the price is some of us are going to start going after each other, then it’s not worth it to me. I realize emotions can run high in a discussion like this, and I know I get defensive if someone even hints that I might be racist, but it’s hard for me to see certain folks taking shots at each other over things said in the heat of the moment. That might be a good time to step back and take a break, perhaps log off the the site for a while. I’d hate to lose even one person as a regular because of something I wrote, even if I wrote it with the best intentions.
People who know the cat know he is anything but racist. Lots of respect to da cat Max. These stories should be told, dude…..
I got this story on my phone initially on my holiday and I was annoyed. Ignorant bastards hicks. I was disgusted.
Who in the hell could hate on a kid????? Period, any color????. The parents in this article foster hatred. They perpetuate hate. How sad. The world is sad enough. How could you do that as a parent?
I will never understand.
Poptart,
Good points, and maybe that should be the moral of this story. That no matter how seemingly ‘racist” someone might or might not be, do not pass this shit onto your kids, and don’t subject kids to this EVER.
Anyways…I need sleep…this site has definitely become my new addiction.
Night, y’all.
Maelstrom, this site is a good home. Max runs a tight ship….
Keep reading and try to contribute when u can….
Bottomlime, for this story, let your kids formulate their own ideas, even if you are a redneck bastard, the 21st century is upon us all whether you like it or not…racisim is so civil war era, outdated and antiqued.
LOL
J Poptart1
Max, my Friend,
I have to say that this is one of the few times I have seen a race argument that did not devolve into a mudslinging fest. As Poptart said it best, you run a tight ship here, and that is the difference, I think.
You are a good guy – the best – and anyone who questions your motives or integrity will be damned sorry they did.
That’s really nice of you guy to sat all those cool things about me, and I’d like to believe that their all true. I was more of a mind that we have an exceptions bunch of people who visit this website. I’ve always believed that PYSIH’s strong point is our people, from the folks who comment daily to the lurkers who only post when a topic like this comes around. I do try to keep things from getting out of control, but I hope I’m not so egotistical as to think I can actually change the way, say, 50 people behave. You guys were already good people way before you ever knew me.
I hate racists, but I rather be around someone who openly admits they are racist than someone who adamently denies being a racist and is racist.
I am Asian (Korean to be exact) myself and I see a lot of racism and animosity. Racism is quite pervasive in Asian communities. They have prejudice towards other Asians, like Chinese, Vietnamese, Japanese, Korean, etc.
I came across your blog as I was searching the web for people perspective on this event. There are so many facts to this story that have not been reported or only lightly touched on…it is hard to get a real picture of the event.
This whole incident was handled about as poorly as possible from the jump. Everything from the decision to bring in mulitple day camps to the reaction and lack of appropriate action when trouble arised. That being said, poor managment does not equal racism.
The most ironic thing about this whole event is the gentlemen who is whipping boy for the media, is actually a peace activist (http://peaceactionpa.org/Ethnic_Peace_Fest_20Jan08.html) and only had the best intentions for kids in his heart.
The first mistake the board made was not consulting or making aware to its members they had agreed to bringing in multiple daycamps to the swim club. Families like mine paid for membership because we like the small quiet casual atmosphere. Truth be told, we have three children, two with special needs and being able to constantly keep an eye on them in a pool that barely ever has more than 5 kids at a time in it is the thing we were looking for. My family was not there the day Creative Steps was there but was there for a day when another Day Camp with about 30 kids came and it was a hetic scene. Now don’t get me wrong, this is not the fault of the camps, kids came with the intent to swim and that just what the did, but all of the sudden the shallow end of the pool which usually had only a couple kids now had over 30 and it was a hectic scence. We never complained, and made note of the time so as not to be there the following week, not because of race (this group was Asian) but it was not what we felt comfortable with. We did hear other parents complain, but race was never mentioned from what I heard, it was just a general “what is going on” and “there are too many kids” type of complaints.
Now, again I was not there when Creative Steps Camp came but I know they were a much larger group and the camp my family experienced. Was there racial comments made by a member when the scene unfolded and all these kids went into the pool? I don’t know but it wouldn’t surprise me if somebody did say something inappropriate. That being said, Valley Swim Club can not being held responsible for what a member says. That member should be embarrased, and quite frankly if that person is ever identified there membership should be revoked. But, there were 65 kids in the pool that day and from what I told it was a very dangerous situation. What the media doesn’t explain is the club has a policy that kids must pass a deep water test before they are allowed access to the deeper areas of the pool. I don’t know the numbers, but it seemed to be a large percentage of the kids were not experienced swimmers so you had a swarm of bodies into a relativley small section of the pool. It was a very, very dangerous system. This was the first time the swim club ever tried something like this and they were not prepared. They didn’t have enought staff, there was no plan on how to break the kids up in smaller groups nothing. It was just not well thought out. Again, bad management not racism. They had a lot of members complaining about all the camps and they just decided this experiment did not work. The pulled the plug on all three camps, refunded money and thought that was the end of it. Again, the board could have handled it better by trying to figure out a solution, but they chose to just cut bait. Nothing racial…just a bad management decision. As for the aftermath, you have a bunch of unpaid volunteer board members who have know experience dealing with the media being cast in a very negative light. John who is a very bright guy, choked on his own words. As he told me, his vocabulary betrayed him. His complexion comment was totally misconstrued, and he knows it was not the best choice of words. He in know way meant complexion as in skin color, but complexion as in changing the enviroment of the pool from a small private pool, to more of a summer camp kind of pool. Lots of kids, lots of noise..not what membership has paid for. It is what it is people, belive me or not. I do know after seeing these events unfold in person I will never really trust the media again. They have been so one sided, the truth was never there objective. They saw an opportunity and they want for the kill.
Thank you for a first hand, and seemingly even-handed explanation.
This is pretty much what I have been trying to say. That it was probably just a bad set of circumstances which has been blown out of proportion by race-baiters and the media looking for a good controversy.
What REALLY bothers me is how willing people were to jump to conclusions. A camp of black kids got uninvited, so it HAD to be be because of the color of their skin. Had the exact same situation happened to a camp of white kids, not one single person would have said a word. Most would not even be aware because it would not have been even a 2-line blip in the papers.
It really worries me about the state of race relations in this country. For the last 30-40 years the country has been making incredible strides to bring us to a place where opportunity is NOT limited by race, religion, gender, etc… and yet that is rarely ever acknowledged. Instead guilty whites and militant blacks continue to look for ANY instances of discrimination to illustrate how “the man” is holding various groups down.
On the other hand, maybe I should be encouraged. If the only examples of discrimination that can be found are so “manufactured” and false – maybe we really are getting closer to achieving our goals.
I agree with much of what your saying sir. I totally believe that John Duesler’s comment wasn’t racist in nature, just an incredibly bad choice of words. I also believe that half this story, as it was portrayed in the media, is bunk. And that’s turned out to be the biggest problem of all in this story, as I’ve discovered since writing this story. The media has turned this into a three ring circus with exaggerations, quotes taken out of context, and specualtion presented as fact – I don’t blame you for feeling the way you do. What they have succeeded in doing is confusing the real issue – I firmly believe that the kids heard what they say they heard from some of the people present that day, and that pressure was brought to bear on the Valley Swim Club management by those same people to stop the Creative Steps kids from returning. It just doesn’t make sense to me that they would suddenly decide there were too many children after already knowing the head count ahead of time. It sounds like a convenient excuse to relieve themselves of a problem that many members never asked for a didn’t want. The other two camps had probably already fired up some people, and Creative steps was the straw that broke the camel’s back. Of course, I’m speculating a great deal here, but like you, I don’t trust the media to give any kind of an honest account of what happened either.
I thank you for your post, and for not blasting my story. Contrary to some folks opinion, I appreciate people with differing viewpoint, as long as they’re civil, honest and refrain from attacking anyone personally. You’ve made some points that made me want to know more about what REALLY happened, and it’s refreshing to be challenged by someone who doesn’t make me feel like I’m being talked down to. I really do hope the truth comes out, and those who have been wronged are vindicated, whoever they might be.
I was quite happy to read this post and see, what many of us suspected all along, that it was not fueled by racism. That it was, as I mentioned earlier, more a matter of the club dropping the ball on their planning and notifying members.
This whole exchange of comments has been interesting. I see some people I normally disagree with showing wisdom here and not reacting in a knee-jerk faction. I will publically say I respect them for doing so. While the author and a few others immediately jumped to saying it was racially motivated, cooler heads prevailed for most and the truth now backs them on it.
As for passing the blame to the media for the reason that some drew the wrong conclusions, we should all know by now not to trust the media implicitly.
we all have respect for each other here, and can easily agree to disagree.
it only you that we have no respect for….
-editor
“we all have respect for each other here, and can easily agree to disagree.
it only you that we have no respect for….
-editor”
Well I guess it’s a good think that my value as a person doesn’t hinge upon whether you respect me or not then huh? And have you taken it upon yourself to speak on everyone’s behalf, or just have a mouse in you pocket?
don’t be angry with me if you can’t see the facts
but then, facts have never been your strong point, have they?
-editor
“don’t be angry with me if you can’t see the facts
but then, facts have never been your strong point, have they?
-editor”
You’re right. I hope some day that I can be like you. Getting half-accurate information from online news sources, and then forming an inaccurate knee-jerk opinion about them being racist. And then attempt to uphold same said opinion in the face of dissent. And finally ending up with egg on my face when the truth comes out.
And for kicks I’ll call posters liars. I won’t have anything to back that claim up. I’ll just make it because I’m a big man on the intrawebz.
Are you on drugs? Or is there no excuse for your warped perception of reality? Seriously Staple-boy you are the only one who believes that you are a victim here. No one else. Every slam you have gotten, every systematic destruction of your lame posts, has been because YOU have a shitty supercilious attitude and an obvious desire to argue. You are fooling no one but yourself.
If it was up to me, you would have been banned a few threads ago. The only reason you are still allowed here is because of Max, the same one who you insult and accuse of trying to shut up the voice of opposition. Bless his heart, as much as he dislikes you, he hasn’t banned you and your arrogance out of his personal sense of integrity. Consider yourself lucky that I am not the one who wields the power on this little piece of the interwebz because I sure as hell would not have the same principle as Max.
You are really getting tiresome.
Don’t sweat this clown Maz – I love his take on things. It’s like we have our own Bizarro Land correspondent. I’m still trying to figure out when and where the “truth” came out – did you see it? I had the impression that the jury is still out on this one.
Maybe he’s talking about the fact that I backed off my original editorial, where I was more convinced about what the facts were and spoke like it. Now, after listening to the other side, and doing and honest self-examination (LOL, can you imagine the great stapler doing something like this – it boggles the mind) of my position, I was forced to admit that alot lot of my conclusions were based on speculation and guess work.
But the story itself was solid – I’m not going to repeat why for the 4th time. You yourself said that the videos helped to re-enforce your ideas about what happened – which happen to be 180 degrees opposed to mine.
But stapler continues to tell everyone how much better he is than me – I don’t know why that’s so important to him. Maybe if I tell him he is, he’ll go away. Let’s try.
Stapler, you’re so much better than I am
*whisper* is he still here? *whisper*
Don’t say that Max, then by the transitive property, he’d be better than me, and I can show you a few proofs to the contrary.
Stapler,
If you want to compare brain sizes, I have a bobble head on a 6’4″ frame that makes Cheyenne Cherry look normal. I’ve added a 100 lbs of ballast to my frame since the giant head jokes of High School, and while I still wobble, I rarely fall down. If you’re the biggest fish where you’ve been swimming, have you considered the chance that the low common denominator for this site, might just have put you in a deeper pond? A pond with both a collection of piranhas and minnows and some bigger fish that the dimensions of the site just don’t seem to explain?
I’d hoped our most recent exchange was headed towards your own DueProcess moment. Here was this woman who came in and cut and pasted an argument from another board here, got it torn down to the bones and then built it back up to the specification of total strangers and turned out quite a bit of respect as she navigated the slings and arrows, many of which she deserved. No need to bring up a Step’n'fetchit or Uncle Tom remark here, we know you think you’re playing to win.
You don’t need to kowtow to some elders or even a prophet here, you just merely have to remember that this is the internet, and what you say can be used against you, and will by people with no “need” to spare your feelings.
If you’d just follow a reasonable process that wasn’t so lazy and defended your position, it would come off so much better.
Not that I expect anyone to concede this point, but Jason since you are big on facts, if you peruse the times and dates of the posts, you will see that Max starting slinging barbs first strictly out of contempt. Most everyone of us were on the same page with this topic and finding common ground on many aspects of it. For some reason that bug got up his butt and he started tearing into me and accusing me of being a liar on comments I made.
Now there comes a time when the mob mentality has to give way to common sense and the facts. Reading through this thread it is obvious that Max was in the wrong on many things. If you disagree with something I say, come after me. But don’t do it when I am responding to an unprovoked attack from Max. At that point you become as immature as him.
Tell me you disagree with my stance on a topic. Tell me you don’t think I researched a topic or my conclusions are wrong in your opinion. But don’t call me a liar on something involving my family with absolutely NOTHING to substantiate such an accusation.
You see, that’s exactly what I’m talking about. What I said to Moop was “For one thing, I wouldn’t be surprised if he (stapler) made the whole brother story up…..” In keeping with his drama queen image, he chose to read that as “stapler is lying”. I don’t know if he made it up, how could I? But here he is milking a statement I never made for all it’s worth. Grasping at straws is just another symptom of someone who is in way over his head and is desperate to get himself out with his dignity intact. It might be easier if he knew he lost any shred of dignity he had left a long time ago.
No. See – there is this thing called “reputation”. You don’t get to wipe the slate clean every time you post on a new thread. You carry the same old baggage around with you unless and until you make amends for all the crap you pulled on different threads.
We have said over and over and over again that we don’t have a problem with you having a different opinion, so the fact that you are on the same side of the argument makes no difference. We have a problem with arrogance and people who refuse to have an intelligent conversation, with people who ignore facts, who spin other facts and who are much more concerned about winning some “battle” that exists only in their own mind.
Here’s the thing Stapler. I WANT to like you. I really do. You seem to have a pretty good mind and are probably fairly interesting to have a conversation or a debate with. But you fight DIRTY. It’s all about you winning, to the point that you become nasty and vile when you lose. And that is the thing that overrides every attempt to play nice.
So as my dear old Dad used to say: Fool me once shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.
It would take you a long time to shed your troll reputation if you ever decided you want to play nice. But I don’t think you will ever really try. It’s too important for you to win in your own mind, no matter how stupid you appear to everyone around you.
Do you think it’s wrong for Max to show you contempt?
Do you think it was wrong for you to show Max contempt?
It worked for DP, so let’s try this.
Note: I’m trying to frame the argument I think you have.
Step 1. State what you believe(present your opinion as an opinion): “I think this site condemns people too fast, and too furiously and doesn’t get all of the facts out fast enough.”
Step 2. Declare your baggage: “I argue on a lot of sites, about everything from political opinion to the significance of comic book characters and artists. I know I’m smarter than the average bear, I have deep Mormon convictions, and I also know that I tend to shoot from the hip, but I think that my opinions are informed. I rarely admit I’m wrong, but I will grudgingly respect an opinion different from mine as long as bad language and insults are withheld.”
Step 3. Present your new evidence… and now for a break from Jason: I can’t do this one for you. I don’t agree with most of your stated beliefs. I think people, even people not on juries can and should make decisions based upon the facts they have, to help grow and develop their sense of right and wrong. I think that truly evil crimes should be discussed, debated and even chanted by the mob because it’s a way to disseminate information that might just help prevent similar crimes or help to make the punishment more fitting and severe in the future. </RANT>
Step 4. Concede your reservations. “You all aren’t stupid, you just haven’t gotten a chance to understand what I’m trying to say.”
Step 5. Ask leading questions that help to establish a dialog? “What kind of information or sources would you folks need from me to help me support my opinions? I think I understand the facts, what do you need to believe me?”
Step 6. Recognize that most of us are amateurs, but that we have sources that you may not be aware of, just as we may not be aware of all of your sources. Reveal what you know. “I have a Black computer techie, gamer friend of mine who uses the Queen’s English and doesn’t call women hos or shawtys. I think the counter-culture that embraces militancy, drugs, gangs and street lingo is counterproductive to the dialog and the society as a whole.”
DueProcess came on this site with a set of research(I think it was flawed, but we’ve agreed to disagree and she even swayed me on several points). She presented her facts, but initially assumed we would manifestly see it her way. We didn’t–most, Mazzi actually took that one by the horns and I applaud her for it. You offered up less than she did, you came with your opinions and assumed we’d accept them as facts. I tore into some of the arguments, but I honestly conceded both trivial and non-trivial points, when I was wrong. You claimed on 4 occasions that I had lost all credibility, given what we both know about that word(credere, to believe), how was that not calling me a liar? When you did the same to Max, how was that not calling him a liar?
The most destructive arguments on the internet are those in which two or more people hold up a mirror to the other side, and start reflecting back exactly the same vitriol they’ve gotten from the other side. It and “yes it is,” ” no it isn’t” is the heart of any flame war.
Max- Are you saying that saying that someone “made something up” is not the same think as saying you lied? I would like you to show where anywhere on this site I’ve shown a penchant for lying or “making things up”. It would be like if I said “it wouldn’t surprise me if Max beats his kid”. Now I’ve got no basis from anything to draw that conclusion based by anything you have said on the site. It’s just me lashing out because I don’t like you. That really is playground behavior. Regardless of your feelings on a person, adults don’t behave like that.
Mazzi- Reputation doesn’t excuse other’s behavior when it is wrong.
Unprovoked attacks are never justified. And to allude that someone is lying, especially in a story where their family member was hurt is really a low blow and in my opinion, a line gets crossed there.
I don’t really care if you, he, or others like me. However, I expect that certain lines don’t get crossed out of human decency. And really, what he is doing now is nothing more than harassment. It doesn’t matter what I post in any thread, he is there to attack. He really is in the wrong here.
Jason- More or less what I said to Mazzi applies to my response to you as well. Max can have as much contempt for me as he likes. Anyone can. However, said contempt does not grant carte blanche for bad behavior. Max’s behavior in this thread has crossed over from contempt and is now firmly in the bad behavior category.
This quote of his, from this very thread, was nothing but hypocritical: “But if the price is some of us are going to start going after each other, then it’s not worth it to me. I realize emotions can run high in a discussion like this, and I know I get defensive if someone even hints that I might be racist, but it’s hard for me to see certain folks taking shots at each other over things said in the heat of the moment. That might be a good time to step back and take a break, perhaps log off the the site for a while.”
He wants people to stop going after each other. Here is a stellar idea, how about as the person running the site, setting the example? He gets defensive at people hinting that he is something he is not, and yet doesn’t understand when others get defensive over him hinting at things they are not? He seems to be taking a do as I say, not do as I do stance here. He really does have the obligation here to set the example. And if he can’t, maybe someone more level-headed should be running things.
As the Internet meme and the Australian host says”
I have friends I hang with on Tuesday nights, for over 8 years. No one gets a break unless someone died or they’re going through a Divorce. These are friends who’d pull me out of a wrecked car, and laugh at me for the cut on my forehead. They’ll forgive almost any major or minor slight, short of a crime or messing with someone else’s wife.
I bet you have some friends that are at least similar.
This is the Internet. You have to walk a fine line, dot a hundred “i’s” cross a thousand “t’s” to avoid being the punchline of a fart joke. No one gives out a free pass unless they want to, and you called Max a liar, by attacking his credibility first.
We’re not your friends. We’re not even colleagues in some peerage that includes you. We’re almost anonymous people on the Internet who speak our minds at each other. We are human beings, and you can call us evil, bigoted, heathens bent on a path of destruction and mayhem, but I assure you, nothing you say will be new.
Thicker skin, better arguments, and the willingness to eat crow when you deserve to will serve you well.
Are you kidding me? Do I really have to go over your habit of spinning the facts, telling half-truths, and basically doing whatever’s necessary to make your argument sound legitimate. I’ll give you this much, I can’t recall you telling a bald-faced lie, but in light of everything else you’ve done, speculating about whether you made up a story is neither unreasonable nor unfair. If you were more adult about this whole grudge you have against me and this website, you might have realized that on your own.
Max- Yes, let’s get into that. Show me examples of the accusations you are making. Direct quotes and where you pulled them from. Based on your logic, it wouldn’t be out of line for me to speculate that you do indeed beat your wife and kids. You obviously have anger issues. That much is apparent on here. If you can express such rage at people you don’t even know online, it makes me wonder what kind of rage you display at home. Maybe you write these articles to assuage your guilt for doing so.
And son, you have the grudge here. You are the one that begins the volley of insults and baseless accusations. I don’t respond to any posts of yours that aren’t directed to me or about me. You can’t even stick to your “I’m going to ignore you”, which you have claimed you were going to do many times. I would welcome that. I get to you. And the reason I do is because you know there is truth in the things I say. If I was merely the troll you claim, you would have ignored me awhile ago like so many. The guilty take the truth to be hard. You think about me when you aren’t on the site. And that bothers you. And that is why you attack me. Because I am under your skin. Deny it all you want, but you can’t walk away.
You get to me? Hmmm, well yeah, in a way, you do. I don’t like people like you, never have. For all the reasons I’ve stated before, you’re just a bad guy. I did try to ignore you. Then you made that outrageously false statement when I broke my silence, and I realized I really enjoyed fucking with you. I have no grudge – to have a grudge you have to care about what the other person is saying. But we all know how much I drive you crazy – you’ve never been able to let one of my comments go without having something to say, even if the comment wasn’t directed at you. Even when I was ignoring you, you continued to attack me and this website – don’t deny it – every chance you got. You couldn’t even resist pointing out to Fred that I don’t actually own this website. Too bad that’s common knowledge around here, due to the fact that I’ve never made it a secret that all I do is handle the day to day operation of this website – The administrator is the guy who’s truly responsible for the original concept and design of this place. I’m fortunate that he’s a great guy and lets me run the site as I please.
So what else have you got? You keep on taking your shots at me and I keep doing the old bob and weave, throwing a couple of stinging counter-punches to boot. That’s why it’s so much fun for me. it’s like I’m boxing a guy whose arms are half as long as mine. You can’t touch me (because your accusations me nothing to me), but you’re pretty much at my mercy. Why you’re still here is anyone’s guess – you’re either a glutton for punishment or you’re seriously deluded about the impression you make on other people.
lol So what you essentially did in your post is say “No I’m not, you are”. All you did was turn around and accuse me of the VERY same things I just got done accusing you of. I SO get to you. You are flailing at this point. And you got butt hurt that I just clarified Fred’s misconception of things. Now you’re seeing insults where there aren’t any.
That last post of yours shows how quickly you’re going downhill. And honestly, I’m dumb for continuing with you when you showed signs of losing it earlier in the thread. I should have been a better person and walked away from the convo. I’m remedying that now.
PS- Way to ignore the challenge of providing proof of my half-lies and whatnot. ::thumbs up::
Jesus Max – seriously – can we just ban this fool? He has wasted SO much bandwidth over absolutely nothing but ignorant prattle and false braggadocio. He takes over entire threads with his simpering drama.
I am afraid he is going to drive people away from the site. When they have to wade through post after post of his whining and evil vitriol, it must get boring as hell.
I know you don’t want to because of principle, and I applaud that – but sometimes pragmatism calls for some flexibility of principles. I understand if you wont ban him, but I just had to try one more time, lol.
Yeah, I think you’re right Maz. I’ve being selfish by NOT banning him – but he’s just so fucking funny. Look at his last post. What the fuck is that about? He really sees things like that? – He’s winning this argument, I’m hysterically trying to respond to his brilliant posts, He’s “getting” to me. – Like I said, the view from Bizarro Land. But you’re right, it’s time to say goodbye. He adds nothing to the discussion, and shows no signs of going away on his own.
So stapler, I’ll be tagging you as spam from this point on, and the software will filter out your posts automatically. It’s too bad. I remember at one point I actually thought you might have something important to say. Boy was I wrong. Jason and Maz had you pegged from day one, which is more proof that they’re smarter than I am. I sincerely hope you someday find what I found here at this website, people that I respect, people that I care about, people who care about the things I care about. Contrary to what you believe, we do a lot of good on this website, which gives my life a little bit of the meaning that makes it worth living, and you’ve been an unnecessary distraction to that. Have a nice life….
Thanks Max. I totally agree that it was hysterically funny, but it was really getting tiresome. Every time he popped up on a new thread, he pulled the same trick – acting fairly reasonable until someone disagreed with him. Then the meltdown started.
He made too much distraction and crested too much drama. I honestly feel bad for him. It’s a damned shame to see someone who seems to have a relatively high intelligence with so little self-control. I’m sure he has no friends, and instead of spending a second asking himself why no one likes him, he just puffs out his chest and goes on the attack.
His last post did it for me. It clearly showed what his intention has been all along. To get under your skin and wreak havoc on the board. That’s all he ever wanted. He failed at that, but banning him was probably the kindest thing you could do to him. Instead of him being lambasted (rightfully) over and over, he can save face with himself. He is probably strutting around thinking that he “won” whatever warped battle he imagined in his mind. Sad, but not our problem anymore.
None of us want to think we’re racist or have any bias against people of different skin color, religion, and ethnicity. But most of us do have some bias, even if it’s subtle or unconscious. I think the pool club president’s choice of the word “complexion” did reveal a bias against the presence of black and hispanic children at his club, whether he consciously meant to use that term or not. And I completely agree with Max that the children would not have made up the stories about the comments they heard the white parents make about them. Kids don’t lie about stuff like that. I think that to deny that race has nothing to do with what happened is to stick our heads in the sand. Yes, the media probably blew this story out of proportion–but it serves as a reminder that adults need to be aware that their prejudices do hurt children, and watch what the hell they say when they’re around children. Is that too much to ask, really?
Hmmmm.. I take issue with the “kids don’t lie about stuff like that” comment.
I can’t think of anything that is “sacred” to all children, and could not possibly be lied about. Kids lie all the time. Some more than others. Kids who are not punished for it lie like crazy, and kids who are rewarded for lying lie even more. And even children who don’t intend to lie will often end up saying things that are incorrect because they don’t have the same world perspective that adults should.
This exact argument first popped up many moons ago, during the McMartin Preschool witchhunt, when everyone said that kids don’t lie about sexual abuse. Even the kids who said they were assaulted during satanic rituals in hot air balloons and with giraffes standing around. Though to be honest, those kids were not so much lying as they were performing to the expectations of the adults (psychologists) who were interrogating them. Now, a two year old who tells her mommy that someone hurt her is not going to be lying. But a six year old being coached or pressured? Much more possible.
So, I have no difficulty imaging a child adapting the telling of a situation to reflect what the adults surrounding them will relate to. If the parents of these kids are angry people who feel that they have been shafted by the system, then I absolutely expect that the kids will have picked up that attitude. And, if the telling of the story nets them a bunch of attention from adults around them, the story is likely to get more sinister as time goes on.
Hi Max,
I can’t get into the head of board member, but I know most of them personally. These are good, family oriented people and I believe from the bottom of my heart race did not play a part in there decision.
As for knowing how many people would be at the club, yes the had an approximate number but the Swim Club sits on a large piece of land with fields to play in, basketball court, playground area, baseball field, huge sand pit, ect. They though the club cold handle 60 kids. They didn’t think throught that when the camps came to the club all 60 plus kids would head to the pool. Again, no fault of the kids but it was really well thought out by the pool management or really well planned by the camp itself. This was the first time they had brough daycamps in and really did not think through the logistics on how it would work. Again..bad management not racism.
Fair enough, I’ll take your word for it – To be honest, I’m proud of this story, because I tried very hard to be fair, abd to present borth sides of the issue. I think a lot of good discussion was generated in this thread.
What I’m not proud of is my initial reaction to everything. I realize now that I made a lot of assumptions based on very little hard evidence. That’s not like me. I take a lot of pride in my attention to detail and my ability to research – and I didn’t do either of those very well at all in this case. It’s very disappointing. I need to do a lot better on the next story I write.
Anyways, thanks for dropping by and sharing you insight with us. I’m sure I’m not the only one who feels that you helped some of us answer nagging questions we had. I hope you find a reason to visit here again sometime.
Max,
I think your article was fine–I don’t think you need to feel badly for how you wrote or researched it. I’ve read all of the comments here and I do continue to believe that there were racist remarks made, at least by the club member parents to the African American children, and that it was wrong and hurtful. I don’t see any motive for the kids to have lied about that. It’s interesting how defensive some of us can be when confronted with our own prejudices and biases. It brings to mind the Shakespearean saying to mind: “Methinks the lady doth protest too much.”
Oh no, I’m too much of an experienced parent to ever think kids never lie about any subject, but you’re right Kathy, I don’t think these kids were lying in this case. I think they would have been more creative, like throwing in a couple of N-words, if they were making the stories up. Just my opinion, of course.
Correction: I meant to write: “I think that to deny that race has ANYTHING to do with what happened is to stick our heads in the sand.”
The parents should have complained to the club owners, and NOT made questionable comments in the hearing range of the kids. That being said, yes, I would be pissed if I paid good money to take my daughters to a private pool, anticipating peace, quiet, and other parents who are raising their children in much the same manner as I am, and we got taken over by a shitload of other kids, white, black, or otherwise, who are probably being raised in a very different manner than my own. We’ve had this happen when we’ve gone to parks or museums, and busloads of daycare kids from the shitty part of town show up. I’m sorry this is not politically correct; I understand where some may find it offensive. However, I find it offensive when some little black thuggy looking 8 year old starts telling my sweet, quiet, shy and white 7 year old daughter that she “ain’t got no booty” and she needs to “back that azz up”. Fucking sickening.
“telling my sweet, quiet, shy and white 7 year old daughter that she “ain’t got no booty” and she needs to “back that azz up”. Fucking sickening.”
- That’s just delightful, Pixiesmom.
Oi, God help us all.
Did “some little black thuggy looking 8 year old” REALLY say that to your daughter? I doubt it. Or is that just what you imagine a “little black thuggy looking 8 year old” would say.
Good question. I have a huge problem with anyone seeing an 8-year old as a “thug” despite that 8-year old’s skin color. But that’s just me…I have a tendency to adore all children, and don’t feel a need to label them as “thugs”. Call me crazy.
Yes, a kid REALLY did say that to my child, last year when she was 7. I don’t really give a damn whether you believe it or not. It DID happen. My daughter was a little upset, and wanted to know if there was something wrong with her fanny (which was actually sort of funny), at which point I had to assure her that there wasn’t anything wrong with her body, and that NOBODY has a right (at this age) to make any comments about her personal areas, whether they’re 8 or 80, black, white, pink or green. This was just one example of several similar situations we’ve had, both personally and situations involving other kids at the elementary school my children attend. It just never really seems to be the white kids at this age who aspire to imitate those golden icons of the hip-hop community.
i have a real problem with this comment. sorry if i piss any one off but here goes. first off just cuz some of us arent born with silver spoons in our mouths doesnt mean we are crap. and alot of the times it is the thugy lookin ones that grow up to run our country in some way or another, and the way u put that im sorry i have babysat for a few black boys 6-10 and they may be routy sometimes but that dont make them thugs either, and for you to classify him as such is beyond wrong in my opinion and chances are if they say somone has no booty they sure in the hell arent goin to tell that same one to back that azz up. or even say ass in the first place now i might be wrong but last time i checked its not the childs fault for bein born of their skin color or looks or anything else like that. and as for these kids that went to this swim camp good luck next time kids hopefully they never have to endure this again
Perhaps, “babygirl83″, the 8 year old child did not fully understand that one not having a booty and backing that azz up were not congruent phrases. I also was not born with a silver spoon in my mouth–I’m not sure why expecting people to not act like idiots would mean that I must have been born privileged. I truly hate that mindset. You don’t know shit about me, my life, or my experiences, where I came from or where I’ve been. If not putting a stamp of approval on 8 years olds acting “gangsta” makes me a racist, then so be it. But perhaps that’s a big part of the problem in our society today–our refusal to get to the root of the problem, which is not race, but cruddy parenting.
Really nice of you all to attack and accuse me of lying. Pffft. Whatever.
And Maelstrom, I didn’t call him a thug–I said he “looked thuggy” and it’s the truth. An ugly truth, but it is the truth. I’m not going to stick my head in the sand and pretend that there aren’t “parents” (I use the term with hesitation) out there who think it’s cool to encourage kids this young to be “street”. For pete’s sake, they pull up in the carpool line to let their kids out of their cars with gangster rap blasting from the speaker. It’s completely inappropriate. I don’t know how it is in your area, but there’s a lot of it around here. It causes a lot of problems in the schools and parks.
Jees, why so angry PixiesMom? You know, when you have to argue semantics with people to defend something you said, it means you probably came too close to the line dividing what’s OK to and what’s kind of tacky to say. What I mean is, there’s really not that much of a difference between saying a kid is a thug and saying he “looked thuggy”, is there? Just something to think about…….
Max, not really angry, but perhaps a bit defensive. I don’t appreciate being called a liar, and I actually do see a difference in the whole “look” VS “is” thing–for example, my husband will sometimes say “boy, you must have had a bad day, you seem to be feeling bitchy” and I don’t get offended. It is what it is, and maybe I am acting bitchy. However, if he said to me “you are a bitch”, that’s a whole different ballgame, because then he would be labeling me a bitch, not acting like a bitch, or feeling like a bitch. I’m not trying to argue semantics, but again, I DO see the difference. I hope this child does not turn into a thug as he grows older, but his future doesn’t appear very promising. I am sorry if you find that tacky, but I’m not one for tiptoeing around lightning-rod subjects. I don’t understand how any of us can ever hope to come to better understandings of race and cultures if we can’t express our thoughts/feelings/concerns. How can we have honest discourse that way?
I agree with a lot of what you’re saying PixiesMom, I just didn’t want to see your point get lost in these angry exchanges – It’s unfortunate but a fact of life that people tend to ignore a person who comes across as too forceful.
I wouldn’t want my kid swimming in a pool with 65 black kids. It is not rasist, it is common sense. Pools are dangerous, and that is way too many kids that probably have no swimming experience. Plus ther is the factor of the products they use in their hair make the pool oilier. It is the truth, like it or not.
So if it is just the fact that 65 kids are in the pool, why would you feel the need to say black kids. We all use product in our hair. SERIOUSLY, are you brain dead. News flash, mexican, white, black, yellow or orange even purple people eaters leave something behind in any swimming pool!!!!
the point that they are black is because they as a race tend to not enjoy swimming as a recreational activity. Which is why they most likely cant swim.
Be naive if you want, but he products used in a large group of black kids versus white kids is overwhelming.
Facts are facts, but 65 extra kids in any pool would be bad. Just worse becuase they are black.
You are a backwards, racist fucktard. You are generalizing the entire African-American community. If they generally as a race tend to not enjoy swimming as you say, then why are there so damn many in the military and the police force, where it is pretty much REQUIRED to know how to swim? Research your so-called facts before making an ass of yourself, please. Every black person (male and female) that I am acquainted with enjoys swimming quite a bit and would be highly offended at your gross generalization.
yes i am rasist, duh, if it is ok for everyone else, it is ok for me. I never said evey black person cant swim, maybe your retarted. It is a generalization, just like everyone else makes, about every race. No harm for them, no harm for me.
Obviously I am not, because I can utilize rational thought. It is not okay to be racially prejudiced. Racism is what caused the holocaust, racism is what built the pyramids, racism is what tore our country apart during the Civil War, racism is what started Operation Iraqi Freedom. Racism and Hatred have no place in civilized society.
Read my post again, Penny-un-wise. I did not type “all” anywhere in it. I am an equal opportunity offender, not at all racially prejudiced. Well, except in the bedroom, but that’s a different story. I use sarcasm and satyre to get my points across every so often, not outright hate speech.
In closing, you troll, leave the racism and stupidity up your ass where they belong.
It may be a generalization, but tht doesn’t mean it’s always right. Hell, I’m Hispanic, and you don’t see me being a janitor, washing cars, or doing yardwork for a living, now do you? If you keep thinking that these “generalizations” are true for each race, well then you need a reality check. Not every Hispanic likes rice and beans, not every African-American likes fried chicken, and not every Asian likes noodles and rice. It’s fact. End of story.
Don’t forget, not every Jew is rich, not every Pole is stupid, not every Native American is works at a casino, not every Muslim hate non-Muslims, not every Canadian plays hockey, not every Japanese is good with electronics, not every German is blond/blue-eyed, not every Brit has bad teeth, not every Irishman is an alcoholic, not every Scotsman wears a kilt, not every Mexican is dirty/lazy, not every South American is a drug lord, the list goes on and on.
And Penny, racism and hate speech do harm people. I will revisit my prior comment. Racism was at the heart of the holocaust. Tens of thousands of innocent people were MURDERED because of one man’s racial prejudice. Slavery in the United State: Thousands of men, women, and children were abused, killed, and enslaved because they were thought of as lesser beings. Some of my best friends are black, they don’t dress like hoods, they don’t beat their women, they don’t speak jive, but they still are on the receiving end of ethnic slurs because of the color of their skin. Don’t tell me that it doesn’t hurt.
One of my old bosses was a naturalized Cuban-American, who back in the 80′s used to build and design Nuclear guidance systems for the US government. On the side, he fixed car doors and sold them on the internet. He and I used to get a kick out of racial stereotypes.
yes but if we only concern ourselves with the feelings of one particular race, where do the rest of us stand. Standing up for ourselves, affirmative action, scholarships, and other race biased goverment projects, have created racism. I have no problem with people thinking that a white dude with greasy hair and a wife beater on is probably a meth head. This is life, people are evil, and some charectoristics about them give me an early indicator of who they might be. If they prove me wrong than that is a posetive.
Penny, you are all over the place here, but let me try. 1st of all, you are 100% correct that the feelings of one race are not more important than the feelings of others. That same philosophy should extend to the rights of one race over another. And it makes no difference what race we are talking about, or under what circumstances.
Second, a lot of things which are meant well have the opposite effect of what they are intended to do. I agree that the uneven application of certain programs have indeed contributed to racism. In some cases, it was necessary to quickly remedy a grave injustice, and is no longer needed now that the imbalance has been corrected. Unfortunately, human nature being what it is, people are loathe to give up benefits that they have gotten, once they are no longer necessary.
Thirdly, you used the example of a greasy-haired white guy and a wife-beater being pegged as a possible meth head. That is appropriate. But not because he is a white guy – because he has greasy hair and a wife-beater, right?
Now consider two black guys – one is dressed in ghetto style, with baggy pants and a do-rag on his head, the other in a business suit and tie. It makes sense to be wary of the first guy, just as much as it makes sense to be wary of the greaser white guy. But what about Mr. Business suit? Are you still scared of him just because of his skin color?
I am not going to pass judgment on you no matter how you answer the question (though others might), but it’s really something to think about when you are thinking about stereotypes. Are you simply hating on someone because of what pigmentation they happened to be born with, or are you using a set of parameters that defines the way a person presents themselves?
Personally, I see nothing wrong with being wary of people who choose to act and dress in a manner that would be considered threatening by society’s standards. But I see a lot wrong with assuming that everyone of a certain group is ____fill in the blank ___ by default.
OMG. You are truly a perpetrator of Felony Stupidity, and one of the worst I have seen in a long, long time. How can you be such a bonehead? I concern myself with all races, not just one, and definitely not just my own. I also concern myself with making a damn good attempt at properly executing the English language in a public forum. Shall we showcase your own butchery of speech?
July 20, 2009 at 1:36 pm
“yes but if we only concern ourselves with the feelings of one particular race, where do the rest of us stand. Standing up for ourselves, affirmative action, scholarships, and other race biased goverment projects, have created racism. I have no problem with people thinking that a white dude with greasy hair and a wife beater on is probably a meth head. This is life, people are evil, and some charectoristics about them give me an early indicator of who they might be. If they prove me wrong than that is a posetive.”
And now for a run down of your grievous offences against my eyes:
1. charectoristics is not a word. Find a dictionary and look it up. The word is CHARACTERISTIC.
2. The first sentence is phrased as a question and punctuated as a statement.
3. posetive is also not a word. POSITIVE is the proper spelling.
And moving on to your obvious mental handicaps. “This is life, people are evil…” Negative. Not all people are evil. The follow the straight and narrow or depart into depravity is a subconcious choice. I am not evil, I never was evil, and I will never be evil. Babies are not evil. Cute little old ladies are not evil. The old guy that yells “Take yer top off!” whenever I walk into the VFW is not evil (perverted, but not evil.) Human Beings are not inherently evil. There comes a point in time in each individual’s existance that his/her/its heart/mind/soul makes a decision subconciously to become whatever he/she/it will be for a time (“for a time,” in that people can change if they so desire)
Please, do us all a favor and get an education before you humiliate yourself again.
Nothing the government has done has resulted in racism. Ignorant, narrow-minded, selfish bigots like you created racism. You make me sick.
navycop,
the first sign that you have no intelligent rebudle is pointiong our grammer mistakes. Also, copy and pasteing my entire post. Is it possible that maybe you could see the point I was making. I am aware of my grammer disfunctions. I obviously dont have the free time you do to reread everyones post and check for grammer mistakes. I guess that is where your goverment job comes in. You get paid no matter the quality of your work. I do not wish to put down anyone who serves our country, I appreciate the HARD work and selfless act some people do for the rest of us, so I won’t say any more.
The minority groups, strive on racism, it is their only source of income.
Mazzi,
you have said what I wanted to say in a much more logical manner.
It really isn’t about race, it is about the whole package of a person.
Penny- This is my last reply to you as I am getting fed up with your crap.
I may not have been clear in pointing out that I am a Navy RESERVIST, which means that I am drilling one weekend a month. If I was full time Navy I would not have limitless amounts of time to be on this site. However, as a Security Supervisor in the civilian world, making $14 an hour to supervise nine guards for eight hours, and let people in and out, I do have that luxury. Let me give you a brief run down of my actual military job:
I work with Navy Coastal Warfare Group Two, attached to Boat Division 81 in Newport, RI. My unit works from around 7am to 6pm maintaining the boats and cleaning the weapons. This involves climbing up onto the fantail (there are no ladders,) down into the engine compartment and on to the very top to secure the mast.
I spent nine months in Kuwait, performing customs inspections, loading luggage onto trucks, and risking my life to escort convoys to the airport.
I earn my keep. I have earned my keep consistently for five years and have been promoted because of my hard work five times. The military will get rid of people who do not perform up to standard, just like a civilian job.
I have engine grease on my hands. I have scars from on the job accidents. I’m not quite as sharp as I used to be, because of an injury a couple years ago. My hands are not dainty, ladylike, soft little things; they are covered in scars, cuts and callouses (sp?) I even lose feeling in my left hand, because of a fall that damaged the nerves in my shoulder.
Go ahead and give me shit-talk, I don’t mind. I am actually going to school to get my mechanic’s license, because I hate sitting on my ass.
This is the first job where I have had eight hours to do nothing. I usually find the ones where I am constantly on the move. Too bad. I thought this one would work out. As soon as I am done for the day, I go home and work on my truck, just to keep the damn thing running. I play with my daughter, I take my dog out for a walk, and I go for a run to maintain physical standards. The only time I am on this site is during working hours and for less than an hour the first day of drill, because I get there early.
I do not always point out grammar mistakes and that was not the entirety of my comment. Fine, maybe I can stop pointing out mistakes, but it’s kind of ingrained, as every t must be crossed and every i must be dotted in my incident reports. So deal with it. Grow up and deal with it. I am an arrogant prick. I have earned the right to walk around with my head held high and nothing you can say will change that.
V/R,
MA2
Navycop,
I’ll bet your a very lonely person. Anyone who can spen that much time blowing their own horn is either lieing, or doesnt have anyone else to make them feel important. Sad for you. You shouldn’t have to tell other people how great they are for them to see it, they just see it. For a good debate, you should stick to the points being discussed. When you try to insult people, instead of pointing out the flaws in their theroys, people may actually learn something from you. Unless you goal is to seem like a prick. Which you do, but I give you another chance, because underneath all your crap, you seem to have the starts of a decent peson who cares about everyone.
And I saw that before your rambling of your life accomplishments.
Hey NavyCop, mind if I take a shot at the next Grand Dragon Pooh-Bah of the KKK. Oh wait, that could never happen, because all of their women need to be barefoot and pregnant, dinner on the table, shirts starched, etc, etc…
Anyway Penny, I find you very amusing myself. I knew after the remark about minority children’s hair products that you weren’t going to be your run-of-the-mill racist jackass. It takes a special type of ignorance to say something that stupid out loud.
And you didn’t disappoint You then pointed out that blacks as a race do not enjoy swimming. I’m sure Cullen Jones (Gold medal in swimming in 2008) and Anthony Ervin (Gold in 2000) will be very surprised to hear that. Obviously, when Blacks are given the same opportunities as Whites to learn to swim and and the same access to pools, public and private, they enjoy it just fine.
But this one was my favorite. “The minority groups, strive on racism, it is their only source of income.” Maybe it’s because it’s plain, old fashioned, leg slapping, rednecked racism. Or maybe it’s because I shot soda out of my nose laughing when I read it for the first time. I mean, you’re not seriously saying that all minority groups make a living off racism. I know their are people like Fat Al Sharpton, who take advantage of the system and cry “racism” every time he senses there’s money to be made, but he’s only in it for Al. So as people of your ilk are so famous for doing, you used the actions of a few to make a blanket statement about an entire race of people. That’s dumb. You’re dumb. People like you are dumb too.
So what else have you got Penny – make it good, because I truly enjoy tearing down ignorant, racist people like yourself. You make the world a harder place to live in for everybody, Black and White.
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! OMG, I am gonna piss myself!!! I knew I loved you, Max! Holy Crap! I can’t fucking breathe! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! (passes out from lack of oxygen)
Max
how long did it take you to google a black swimmers? I know you had to google it, because black people are not known for swimming, because of the reasons you stated. Yes some black people do swim, do I actually have to state that every time i generalize about something. I live, work, and went to school with black people. (Actually it was equal amounts of hispanics, white and black) No blacks tried out for the swim team, the local pool was filled with whites and hispanics, and very few blacks. I am not arguing the reason they dont swim, it is just that they dont as often as other races becuase of their heritage that was influenced by segragation. All in all though black people swim less than whites. I guess this is how this web site has tured lately, if you dont spell things out for everyone, and make sure you offend no one then your argument must be stupid, or your just a troll. You people especially you max, are as narrow minded as you claim me to be.
I lived in an apartment complex, i used the public pool often, on the days when the majority of the pool was black (yes sometimes black people do swim, I know but you guys are to dumb to get that I am aware of that), the water had a strange film that wasn’t there on other days.
People like fat al sharpton were who I was referring to, not every single minority alive. Thank you again for acting too stupid to see the point and making me cover all bases before I say something that offends some one.
Max-
I think you take offense to anyone who doesnt blow some more air into your head. You love hearing everyone tell you how great you are and how smart you are, and well I think you do alot of copy and paste. You seem to always side with the people that suck your ass, something I dont do. What is your purpose for running this site? What do you plan to accomplish? What have you done that has helped ? I am not saying you havent, but I’d like to know.
stapler, is that you? nah, he was smarter and wouldn’t have posted the drivel you just did. Actually, I knew about Jones and Ervin because they both made statements about this story – sorry about the Google thing, but you’re wrong. Again.
And I run this site so I can collect syncopants who will stroke my ego and tell me how great I am. I thought that was obvious from the subject matter. Now common, rehashing thatsmystapler’s arguments won’t get you anywhere but on the outside looking in. Stick to the issue, or take a hike.
So from now on, if i were to say some thing like “black people dont play hockey” are you and lazycop going to understand that I dont mean that there are no black people that play hockey, or do you think you can see my point that there arent alot of black people that play professional hockey. Should I always spell everything out for you, or do you think you can stick to debating the actual topic, instead of finding easy targets to dispute, like naming actual black people that do swim. Grow up and try to be less boring.
*sigh* I can’t believe we’ve got another one. What did I do to deserve this God?
You know Penny, my grandfather was from the old country, and he had a word for people like you – gabadosta. It means, literally, head full of rocks. It’s what you call someone who just won’t listen to reason. Pops used to tell me arguing with someone who’s gobadosta is like talking to a stone wall – a big waste of time. Smart man, my Pops.
lazycop…. hmmmm. I feel like I should be about 350lbs with a coffee cup resting on my gut (aka portable tv tray), stuffing my face with donuts… :) Sick, sick visual, actually…
It is funny, I thought the same of you, I just didnt feel the need to say it. But since you did, I guess you have further proven to me that if someone doesnt agree with you they must be stupid and wrong.
I just went back and reread the stapler guys comments, now I know I was right about you Max. You banned him to spam? You arre either getting older(and by older, I dont mean all old people are bad, just that some seem to get grumpier, ok) or more liberal, probably both. If everyone only agrees with you and conseeds to everything you say, when will you have a chance to learn from others. You were wrong for that, and i hope other people who didnt agree with stapler can at least see that.
You may as well be rasist, your definetly narrow minded, funny thing is, you use to not be that way. I have come to this site off and on for almost 3 years. Some things havent changed, but you have.
Have you ever thought about the process someone would have to use to change your mind?
Unless you stop and take a minute to look at the way you put your world view together, it becomes exceedingly difficult to see where the opportunity to accept something new begins, and the steel trap defences of your own beliefs begin.
Are you trying to change Max’s mind or just piss him off? You can say you don’t care what Max thinks, but in the year or so he’s been working on this site, updates and posts have increased and improved. Things are getting better.
You don’t agree with Max, you don’t agree with Navy Cop, you don’t agree with…. Well Mazzi gets some of what you’re trying to say, but not how you’re saying it. Do you think some of the frustration with you might be that you expect everyone to change to understand you, but you don’t bother to understand them?
There’s this process, and I didn’t invent it. When responding to someone, you state what you think they said, concede what makes sense, refute or rebut what you disagree with, and then move on to new information and back it up with some source. Anecdotes are best here, and you’ve used a few. They reveal why you’re here, what you’re doing, what your goal is. I don’t think most people would disagree with your goal, only your beliefs and the way you state your opinions. Give it a fresh try, break up the pieces a little more cleanly and see what comes up.
Jason,
the problem is that I stated how I felt, then I was attacked for it. I deserved it because talking poorly about a group of people is unfair. However I thought most people here didnt need to hold the by their hand to expain that I dont really think because one black person does it they all do. Maybe I gave some people too much credit. Some people find any small detail in your post and use that as a way to get you. I try to ignor people like that(navycop, a follower) but I am surprised to see that Max has also gone that way too. I dont agree with you always, but have never felt the need to insult you.
I don’t think you’re like Stapler Penny,
I think you have something to say that just needs a little more polish to it. You’re not in the mood to beat anyone down with it, but it’s like this profound thing on the tip of your tongue that just isn’t quite there. I see bits and pieces of it, but I don’t know what it is yet, and will reserve judgement until I see it.
That said, let’s try and start this in a conversation.
My only surviving grandmother is a racist. The first Republican she voted for was Nixon, and that was because JFK was a Papist–in her mind to that point, Republican was a dirty word because it was the party of Lincoln and Grant, and her father was alive for Grant’s election. My mother has some racial tendencies, but they’re buried and they’re mostly reformed. She graduated high school before they integrated her school. She just didn’t deal with many black people until she got into the real world. She studied Spanish in Mexico City, but the town she grew up in and the southern colleges she went to were predominantly white because of the time and placed she lived in. Even still, I’ve never had a problem with my mom’s racism, which is very, very minor, and more like a polite ignorance and a reservation of judgement. Mom taught college English for a time, so she had black and white students who excelled and failed, not because of their race, but because of their intentions and their perception of their own place in this world.
My grandmother is different. She suffers from dementia and she’s not going to come back from the bottom of that cliff. She thinks the world is darkened by anyone who is not white. There’s little I or anyone else can do to reach her. She’s in a retirement community, and we politely try to make sure some of her nurses aren’t chosen by their race, but by their aptitude, and make her as comfortable as possible–we also disarmed her, which was a huge relief to her social workers.
I’m different. I’m about as socially liberal as you can get and remain monogamous, mildly religious and functional–the last was tongue in cheek. To say I have a rainbow of friends would be an exaggeration, but to say I choose my friends because of race, sexual preference or even the type of lunch they eat would be ridiculous. I choose people because we have similar interests. Some of my friends at the swimming lanes are black, and when I swam in high school, while the lanes were dominated by white swimmers, there were black swimmers in every meet. I see no stereotype there. When I was a kid, at the water slide, the number of blacks, white and latinos there was determined by the racial mean and the temperature outside–there were always more people, regardless of race, the hotter it got.
My best man is black, my wife’s maid of honor is a Jew, the man who married us was dressed as a pirate(and is a non-practising Mormon), and the funniest joke I heard from anyone that night came from a Muslim friend of mine. Would I have married a black woman? I dated one, but her father would have killed both of us, and she was ashamed to introduce me to him, so I wouldn’t have married her. Her father was suffering from racism and religious intolerance. I like to think I found the right woman and that if both of us work real hard, we’ll stay married, and our racial similarities are more a product of our common interests than a preference of phenotype.
I think we end racism, by educating anyone who will listen and waiting for those who won’t change, to die.
Can you and I start this over and try and pull that idea out again?
I am comming from a generation is seeing things like affirmative action handicap minorities. I stood up with fellow students, and I say students, because no matter the color they chose to be considered student. They didn’t want to be treated better or poorly because of their race. The problem is that there was always someone, to be honest it seemed to always be a white teacher, that told us we were rasist for thinking that way. My friends, my classmates of all colors could see how affirmative action had helped in the past, but were wanting to be judged on their merit only. I dont want to speak for them, but in a way they were saying “do you not think we are smart enough to get this scholarship if I dont have to compete with all races”. We all put down and no one in the school would listen to our arguments because they weren’t what the majority thoughts, we were called rasist and our views were never taken seriously. What always got me though is that the one thing we wanted is to be treated the same, because we were already doing that on the basketball court or wherever, but it was our “leaders” that continually told us we were not the same.
So let me try to say it back to you, and see if this is what you were trying to say.
You identify yourself with a group of people, black, white, latino, asian, blue, red and purple, who think that affirmative action is a relic of the past, that actually hurts minorities now. It’s like telling G.I. Jane, she can do girl push-ups, while the rest of the SEALs do them on their fingertips. Life’s a game, a competition that seems to be handicapping the competition without the consent of those competing. It seems to you that the people who were handing this down, were mostly white teachers. Perhaps you’re alluding to the “White man’s Burden” that went from an excuse to colonize, enslave and dominate Black men and women, but then became this guilty conscience which made a certain element of our population throw out the rule book.
When you or anyone else challenges the rule book’s discard, you were called a racist. The word “racist” was the club used to beat people back and prevent them from questioning why the rules had changed.
Is that about it?
Sounded in line.
Penny, you really need to look at what you wrote and think about that. You made a point out of saying that you wouldn’t like 65 BLACK kids showing up at a pool because it could be dangerous. Would it be less dangerous with 65 white kids?
If you are a racist, that’s cool, but do yourself a favor and admit it. Admit that you don’t like blacks and then try to figure out WHY you don’t like them. Normally when people are racist it’s because of prior bad experiences, or because they have personal esteem issues. Either way, you are depriving yourself of happiness, because racism itself is a hateful thing. It is impossible to feel truly GOOD about yourself if you hate others for reasons that they have no control over.
As for the hair stuff… how is that any different than white kids being doused in sunscreen and heading into the water? In fact, if the campers couldn’t swim then they probably didn’t spend a whole lot of time with their heads underwater. So the crap on 5-10 white kids bodies almost certainly added a whole lot more gunk to the pool than the 65 campers did. Trust me – I was a lifeguard when I was a teen… and I had to scrub the scumline with Ajax and a bristle brush. Lotion is about the nastiest stuff ever.
…blacks not liking whites is racism, too. Everyone in this country seems to forget that.
sjws,
Of course it is, and this was an issue that we addressed already.
Scroll up.
Mazzi, I believe that Penny outs itself as a racist with its most recent comment
Navy, I think Penny is probably more “misguided” than genuine racist. I could be wrong, but I get the feeling that she is more “scared” of other races, than hating on them.
And that is one of the big problems, I think. You have to admit that there is a subculture of blacks (ie. ghetto blacks) who do their very best to appear stereotypically scary/gangsta. And, the stereotype includes a criminal mentality, and a dislike of whites.
If Penny’s exposure to blacks is limited to blacks who subscribe to that attitude, then a certain apprehension is not unwarranted.
For you, being in the Navy, your exposure is to a different group. Your black acquaintances and friends are by default going to be more respectful of authority, more integrated into real multiculturalism (after bootcamp, I understand that skin color is pretty much a non-issue, right?). Even those who may have come from the ghetto or from homes where distrust of whites was rampant learn to respect their fellow soldiers. And whites who come from redneck backgrounds learn the same about their black brothers.
In my case, the blacks I am very close to are a lawyer, a microbiologist, and a computer programmer. None of them have any “ghetto” in them, and yet none of them are “Uncle Toms”, they are proud to be black and to be role models for their community. None of them have any sort of “victim” mentality, and they all brush off the few incidents that might have been “racist”, instead focusing on the opportunities that they have been allowed to pursue.
As far as the hair products thing goes – that sounds more ignorant than racist.
I am just basically of the idea that most people are not hard-core racists, they just base their beliefs on the things they have experience with. Which is, of course, exactly the same reason that many blacks have an intense apprehension about whites.
The only way to stop racism is with patience, and one person at a time. And we have to do it from all sides, whether it is blacks who are racist against whites or vice versa.
Mazzi- I always, always, always appreciate your comments and points of view. They are always full of insight and are backed up by fact.
However, I have been exposed to the “posers” as I call them. I used to work at Childrens’ Hospital Boston, and to get there quickest, I had to drive through Chelsea, MA. One of the guys I worked with lived there, and I drove him home after shift. He was one hundred percent “gangsta” through and through. Smoked the pot, verbally and physically abused women, criminal record, the works. And yet, I’m not scared of blacks as a whole. I never met a black person until I went to boot camp. And Penny admits to being a “rasist.”
I have dealt with “gangstas” in my military police career as well, usually the boyfriends of the “sistahs” in the service.
I pity them, actually. They perpetuate the stereotype and cause the responsible members of their race to be ashamed of them.
I keep an open mind, because inside we are all the same. Bones, muscles, and blood.
Well, that’s the other part of the issue – there is always individual personality as well. For someone outgoing and strong, the fear factor is going to be much lower than for someone who is a shrinking violet.
Plus, on the individual side, there are a gajillion variations of possibilities. For example, the black guy in a suit and tie that I mentioned before could easily be a crook. The uniform does not grant him anything except a quick initial impression. The guy in the baggy pants could just as easily be a peace activist.
There is also the consideration of setting. A large group of teenage guys (black or white) approaching you on a dark deserted street is going to be terrifying to some people, and extremely uncomfortable for most. A similar group on a crowded street might not even rate on the noticibility scale.
Most people have probably heard the old joke (urban legend), where Eddy Murphy and two of his bodyguards – big and muscular and wearing sunglasses, as all good stereotypical bodyguards do – are in an elevator at the casino where Murphy is doing a show. A middle aged white woman enters the elevator, and the doors close. One of the guards tells the woman to hit the floor, and she immediately drops to the ground. He of course meant for her to hit the button for the floor that she wants, but she interpreted it in a sinister fashion.
Now – the joke is not true, but it’s a damned good example to think about. Would this be a racist woman? Maybe, but on the other hand, she got in the elevator. Was her mind thinking that these big black guys were intimidating? probably. Is that really racist? Would she have done the same thing if they were big white mafioso looking guys?
We need to have an understanding of why people think and feel certain ways, and nothing ever exists in a vacuum.
Penny’s personal experiences must contribute to her belief structure, as all of ours do. So, the idea is to illustrate the bigger picture – to pull her out of her limited understanding and have her focus on the people who are NOT stereotypical. That’s the first step in breaking any stereotype.
You are absolutely right. Gentle guidance and attrition work better than verbal beatings. Well-said, Mazzi
Mazzi, care to revisit a previous discussion?
I don’t think the gentle approach is working with some of the commentators…..
Hair products, huh? And did you know that they eat white kids when you’re not looking? Swear to God….
hee hee
For crying out loud, Penny, the chlorine in the pool eats up the oily hair products. I still pee in the pool when I’ve had a few too many or just feel plain lazy >:)
You better watch those public pools then, Navy. LOL. I heard that there is a product that can be put in pools that turns urine purple so that pool-pee-ers can be identified quickly.
That has GOT to be embarrassing as hell, unless you are so drunk that you just don’t care =P
———————–
OH WAIT!! I just googled it, and the purple-pee changer is a MYTH, lol. Apparently it is not only untrue, but it is impossible.
So, feel free to pee with impunity.
I used to do it for shits and giggles, but now it’s just sad. Ah, to be young and reckless once more ;)
There is a lot of racism up North. Northern cities are more segregated than cities in the South. I mean look at Boston, Chicago, and Philadelphia. Also, they claim are not racist, yet they racist at heart, which makes them more dangerous. Also, they are very class and social status obsessed.
Everytime I think society has come a long ways, it takes a huge leap backwards. I feel bad for those children, my feeling would be crushed if I heard someone talking about me like that. They certainly didn’t deserve the treatment they received and they are too young to just brush it off.
Discrimination goes both ways people. I am sure that a bunch of black people would not have been exceedingly receptive to a bus load of white folks either.
Perhaps the number of kids showing up really did exceed pool limits. It is a rational explanation. Were any of you present to witness any of this, to know differently?
I voted for John Duesler alone as hellworthy. Here’s my reasoning:
1) This was a private swim club with dues-paying members. Duesler should have put it to a vote from the members of the club whether to open the club to outside organizations. Alternately, Duesler should have notified the members of when children from other organizations would be at the club, so members could choose whether to swim during those times or during different times.
2) By blind-siding the members of the club, he guaranteed churning up the most negative reaction possible. Look at it this way: If I pay a good bit of money to swim at a nice pool a few times a week, and one day 65 kids show up at my pool with no warning, I’m gonna be pissed beyond belief (and I’m black, so it’s not entirely about racism; it’s also territorial). But – then I’m going to call up the manager, ask what the deal is, bitch a little about having no notice, negotiate a little discount for the inconvenience, and move on with my life. That’s the mature, adult thing to do.
Duesler screwed the pooch on this one and should burn for being a greedy idiot. The parents who complained may have been racially motivated to complain, but they had a bomb dropped on them and reacted out of shock. I wouldn’t sentence them to more than some public shaming for not being able to handle a sensitive situation without going full retard.
Racism and xenophobia are the children of Ignorance.
Max- lol I find it amusing that when I say I’m done carrying on the argument with you, you decide to “ban” me. And trying to “win” by forcibly shutting someone up is such a wussy way to handle things.
Mazzi- How could that have been my intent all along? I never new Max. I was new to the site. I came here and decided, I’m going to get to Max? Yeah, that seems likely. ::rolls eyes::
Oh bullshit, can’t you just admit you got tired of getting one-upped every time you took me on? You couldn’t even take your banning like a man. You had to get one of your buddies to post this message from his computer.
Please, don’t ever think you’re going to get away with saying you walked away. We all know you were beaten and you quit, and I’ll always have the satisfaction of knowing that I was the one who kicked your virtual ass. I bet that’s gonna stick in your craw for a long time….lmao!
First of all… I’m gone for a week and already there are NINE new stories!? Woooo! Second of all, we all bleed red, we’re all pink on the inside, and all our bones are the same color. Deal with it, you stuck up assholes. Your kids will not turn black if they swim with black kids. Get a damn clue!
Hey there, welcome back NavyCop – Can you believe the reaction to this story? There were nearly 100 comments in the first 4 hours. I may not have gotten the kinds of comments I expected, but I’m proud of the way it all turned out in the end, and how everyone behaved, for the most part. I don’t think I had to delete one N-Word. Someone else said it, but I don’t think there are many message boards where this case was discussed that didn’t turn into a hysterical mudslinging contest.
I had a few other Sailors looking over my shoulder while I was reading the new stories. (I was at drill weekend with my new reserve unit in Newport, RI) I swear, half of them fell on the floor laughing and one had to go to the latrine before he pissed himself… Kudos, Max, you can make bad-ass SeaArk crewmembers snort their coffee, piss their pants and fall in love with PYSIH all at the same time :)
Honestly, I don’t have the time to read through all 298 or so comments…..BUT, has anyone mentioned this is a private pool? Being a manager, I would have brought the proposal ( of accepting the inner city kids, payment) to the Board of Directors for the community. I know how gated communitys work. You don’t just willy nilly accept a proposal without consent. It sounds to me like the request/proposal didn’t go through the ” powers that be “, if you will. A very very dumb decision on the managers part. If the management accepted the proposal for the contract/money, and then backed out…could it be that the “tennents” were going “WTF”?
Did they have NO knowledge of what would be going on at their “private” paid for by dues, “private” pool?
Do the tennents say “…look folks, I sighned my contract with the gated community, and no one that is not of this community can share OUR pool with or without forwarning??
Comments made and/or allegedly made, make no difference. What is in the contract for ‘belonging’ to the community? It makes no difference if it is racial motivation.
However…racism needs to be eradicated, but takes a backseat to formal legal contract.
I’m wondering if the “Manager” doesn’t need some investigation.
Hey jw!
I think that the “manager” is actually just a volunteer, like the president of a homeowner association. From what I could gather, he is (how can I say this nicely????) an extreme social liberal (that works!).
As with many activist liberals, their intentions often do not match the reality of a plan or action. In this case, I think that the “manager” wanted to do something helpful and far-reaching to disadvantaged children, and it ended up being not well thought out and blowing up in his face.
I have no doubt that he got pressure form the dues-paying members of the club. I would have been frothing mad, and I can tell you from deep inside my soul that it would not be because of the color of the kids. It would have been because I worked hard to bring certain advantages to my own children, and the introduction of 65 children in one fell swoop would have made MY children’s enjoyment of an activity impossible.
Is that selfish? Yes – somewhat. But do I have the right to be selfish? I say yes. Does the pool manager have the right to give away things that belong to him to disadvantaged kids? Of course. But, does he have the right to give away things that DON’T belong to him, no matter what his motivation was? No. And, the quiet enjoyment of the pool club by the dues paying members belongs to the members.
It is not worthy of any “investigation”. It should be handled by the club members, who can oust him as the “manager”, who can appoint another manager, or who can choose to perhaps raise their dues and hire a real manager. But it is not a legal or social issue, in my opinion.
Hey, Max, I have a question. Why, when the three members left their kids in the pool with the African American kids, did the other parents continue to have an issue? They did realize it looked bad on them, right? Whatever, just a thought…
Oh and here is a link for people who want to know how the troops come home… http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US_Navy_Customs
Mostly I try to stay out of race related threads. And I don’t really want to get in on this, but I have a few things to say. If I look like a total idiot and racist, there is nothing I can do about it….Here goes.
I think this story is fundamentally ridiculous. I’m sure race had something to do with is. But as someone said above, it is a private pool. Paid for by the people who live in the community. I lived in a community like that growing up; only instead of a pool we had a lake that had a public access point. I don’t think a black person ever came to the lake; and I seriously think if they did they would be ridiculed until they left. The same thing would have happened in the town where I grew up. The majority of the population was hard core Republican and they were quite set in their ways. They didn’t deal with change kindly. Again, I am not saying this is right–but if it is a privately owned entity, as the lake was, then the populous had the right to state what they wanted and expected. The fact that this ridicule (in the story) was directed at children is unacceptable. Whether the people agreed or not, they should have confronted the person who allowed it in private; and after the children left. This story is less about racism and more about the class and tact of the offending community. The offending members of Valley Swim Club go to show that even the most elitist of snobs can act tastelessly. No one cares how much money you have if you don’t have human decency to go along with it. I would like to make a comment to Penny–you may be proud of your racism, but I don’t know how. You state “facts”, yet, lack the inability to back them up. Your “facts” are basically your complaints which you have probably came across on a personal level. There is no way you could have met every black person in the world. So your facts about “they don’t like to swim” or “their hair products make the water oily” only make you look like an imbecile. You’re probably that woman at the store who won’t use the lane with the black/Hispanic/Asian checker even though it’s the shortest line. You’re probably the woman that if a black/Hispanic/Asian person delivers your pizza, you throw it away. You, Ma’am, are about as despicable as they come. Yes, you have a right to feel the way you do; but based on what you have said so far have no credence for any of it.
Based on experience I know that a group of children that large—any race of children, are loud. They tend to be out of control. Basically because they are with their friends and they tend to act out. I am sure safety was first and foremost on some parents minds; especially because there were so many bodies in a small area. What if a child got elbowed in the face and fell in the water unconscious? What if someone got knocked down and trampled? All legitimate concerns. But not enough to direct your hatred towards a child.
I am glad to see the Swim Club returned the money it was paid. I certainly hope the president of the club has his actions called into question—not as an investigation, but maybe have his inability called upon and his resignation called for.
This is the part of this comment I have been dreading to post. But, here goes. If this story was reversed, would it be in the news? Would it garner so much attention? If a busload of white children went to a predominantly black area for an activity and racial slurs were thrown; who do they have to stand up for them? Where is the “NAAWP”? Where is the equivalent of “Reverend Al Sharpton” for white people? Why are whites the “unprotected” race?
I am all about equal rights for everyone, but that doesn’t seem to be the case. I don’t want to sound racist in any form, but statistically speaking blacks account for 80% of VIOLENT crimes but make up for only 13% of the entire population. They commit crimes left and right; but heaven forbid a white person perpetrating one against a black. Then this happens—even when there was not an actual crime. If the races want to call for equality; then let’s get on equal footing. Get rid of the NAACP. Get rid of the Al Sharptons of the world. Don’t go to the news and scream “racism” every time something negative happens to you. Deal with it. Don’t put race in the forefront of every discussion. We have seen this from all sides in the past year; most notably in the presidential election and more recently in the appointment of Judge Sonya Sotomayor. Ben Bernanke is criticized in his undertaking of the Federal Reserve. It happens all over; but it doesn’t have to. Don’t get excited about equality when good things are happening, then turn your back against it when something bad happens to you. It’s not going to be a quick change. But, don’t you think it will be worth it in the end.
Won’t it be worth it when a Jew isn’t known for being greedy and cheap? Won’t it be worth it when a black man isn’t automatically looked down upon in a job interview? Won’t it be worth it when a Hispanic doesn’t have to use her ethnicity to further their career? Won’t it be worth it when a white person isn’t called a racist for doing a double-take at someone?
min_duhh, I completely agree with what you are saying. I tried to say the same thing to the individual you were speaking to, however, she took insult at what I was attempting to point out and just called out the little things. Maybe she will appreciate it more coming from a standard issue civilian? Because obviously my ways are far too lofty and above the world for her ;) If I see something I don’t like, I either call it out (if appropriate) or learn to deal with it (i.e. ignore it) If that makes me a prick, then so be it.
I kind of agree with what you are saying. But I have a few things to say. You say where is the white equivalent of the NAACP, well remember that this was created in 1909, a time where blacks really needed some representation of the rights they needed. If my knowledge of history is correct, I don’t think there was ever a time where massive amounts of white people were having their rights completely violated because of their race. Yes, I know there were a few times because of affirmative action, but a very few. In all the hate crimes that happen in the USA, 63% of the offenders are white. Minorities (and I don’t mean race minorities only, I mean minorities in anything) should have representation to keep their rights from being violated by the majority. This was an important issue when the Constitution was being written. But of course, in an ideal world the need for all this would be gone. Because there shouldn’t be a concern that someone would feel they were a second-class citizen because they are in the minority. So I do agree with you, things should be completely equal. But since the issue of race is so embedded in our history, it’s going to be hard to not believe that race has to do with everything.
hey sorry for not typing corectly but i was very excited when i read this the kids from the pool have been very well taken care of by Mr. Tyler Perry he is a very good man
http://movies.msn.com/movies/article.aspx?news=421916>1=28101
NavyCop,
It wouldnt let me reply to you and a comment you made earlier about all the things you do, well i just wanted to say more power to you for all the things you do Thank you for your service. I was an army wife he was an MP who did a couple tours over seas i know how hard it can for the family you leave behind when you do travel and can only imagine how hard it is for you. I think everyone should be allowed to toot their own horn once in a while.
Sorry for this bein off topic but i felt it needed to be said thanks
No, thank you babygirl83. Unfortunately, it means nothing to most people. I don’t often toot my horn, but when I do, it is in response to someone assuming I sit on my ass and do nothing. I really am a Navy Cop… I’ve seen suicides, rapes, child abuse, the whole gamut. It’s just worse in the military, where some personnel believe themselves to be above the law…
Now, I must say that it is sad that with all the stuff that has happened in American history, that we still hear stories like this. Whether it had to do with race or not, it’s still kind of sad that this group of disadvantage children now feel like something is wrong with them because people didn’t want them in their pool. They already live hard lives, now its worse because now they have all this happening when all they wanted to do is swim in a pool.
The actions of this swim club seems to be a throwback to what happened to African-Americans in the south in the 60′s..Very shameful indeed! Hope those very small parents have an awakening as to what they are teaching their children… That discrimination and bigotry is acceptable! SHAME,SHAME,SHAME! You fools!
There is absolutely nothing wrong with the Black and Hispanic kids,just wanting to swim and have fun, but there plenty wrong with those snotty rich white parents and the owners of this lilly white swim club. Maybe there will be justice for everyone who was terribly wronged with hefty damage awards!!
And that “complexion” statement…THAT’S obscene! And the owner or manager’s statements and excuses regarding this…pure bullshit!
Steve, while I respect your passion and and I would agree with your sentiments if what you think happened had actually happened, I think you have some serious misunderstandings about this situation.
You really should read through the posts and other information, and you will see that the swim club is not “lily white”, nor is it supported by “snotty rich” white parents. It seems to be a pretty even slice of the local demographics, and the members seem to be mostly just middle-class folks, who are willing to pay to have a place to swim with their children.
It is certainly possible that one or even several of the members are less than racially tolerant, but that did not seem to be the overwhelming problem here.
The problem here is that the man who makes the decisions tried to do something nice for underprivileged kids, and didn’t think out the reality of what would happen. He then tried to fix the problem and was immediately branded a racist because the children who were affected happened to be mostly minority. (There WERE white kids in the camp, after all.) Even the head of the camp admits (grudgingly) that the pool manager did his best to help.
The bigger picture here is that for some people, when certain “hot topics” come up, they lose all ability to reason and rationalize. The media fits tightly into that description, and unfortunately, they are the ones with the power to perpetuate the story. They are also the ones who have the ability to leave out key details and to present the materials however they see fit. Which is why so many of us now seek alternative sources for our “news”.
If, instead of immediately assuming the worst, you leave an open mind and read through all of the information, including the very plausible innocent explanation, you should be able to see that this is not actually how it was presented to the public, or at least there is a very rational excuse.
Save that passion for real cases of injustice or criminal behavior. It’s great to have that passion and ideology, but it’s better to use it where it is CLEARLY warranted. When it’s misplaced it tends to cheapen the overall message that one is trying to tell.
As i said before, in the true sense of racial equality, if the pool had NOT revoked the swimming privileges of the camp solely because the camp was mostly minority, that would have been racial preference, and the whole goal here is to take race and racism out of the picture, right? No racial discrimination, and no racial preference = a true colorblind society.
thanks for writing this up, max. i considered writing it up when i first heard about it, but decided that i couldn’t keep emotions out of it, therefore i couldn’t present my best work. i was beyond shocked when i heard about this. i was actually hurt for those kids. and my own as well, because it reminded me that not only do i have to watch out for kidnappers and molesters- i also have to watch out for people who will treat them like second class citizens, damage their self esteem and make them question their value as a human being. just plain sad.
Glad you liked it eternal. This was another one of those stories that wouldn’t leave me alone after I read it. I’ve thought about it alot since I wrote it up, and I’m sure the reason it bothered me so much wasn’t all the the media hype but the fact that children were the victims. Perhaps I’m naive, but I believe what they say they heard, and I also believe that the parents who said those things, acting out of ignorance and racism, forced the Valley Club management to return the Creative Steps Camp money. Their are probably many good people at the Valley Swim club, John Duesler being one of them, but that core of stupid people destroyed whatever good will the minority was trying to create. The worst kind of racist, and the one that’s most dangerous, is the one that doesn’t know he is one, and that’s what I think we were dealing with here.
Please don’t take offense, but some of you White Americans are in a deep state of DENIAL.
But I somewhat understand this way of thinking. Who would want to admit that people associated with your same ethnicity could be so despicable?
Please wake up, people! As an African-American woman, I know racism when I see it. That’s why the Valley Swim Club couldn’t really do anything to sugar-coat the situation. It was just too obvious.
Take Judge Sonia Sotomayor’s “Wise Latina” comment. It was too obviously racist, but she had the audacity of attempting to convince Americans that the statement she made wasn’t racist. OH PUUHHHLEEEEEZ! That heifer didn’t fool me for one second!
People like that depend on naivety to get away with their racist actions. What’s really sad is that so many Americans are falling for this crap!
This Just pisses me off. I am black and I live in a town kind of like Huntingdon Valley. and the it just pisses me off cause I sometimes here people make comments because I am black. as if I am poor. yet I still live in the same town them. people need to learn to not be so stereo typical and racist. and the other parents around the pool that let there kids stay should have said something to those iggnorant parents. because NO ONE deserves that treatment.
I heard Tyler Perry just took all the kids on vacation.
That’s true Moop – He took the whole group to Disneyland a couple of weeks ago. Nobody ever wants to take me to Disneyland…Wah!
Haha! You’re not the only one! I lived in the same city that Disneyland is located in for 4 years and I only went once during that whole time. Just getting through the gates of that place will significantly drain your wallet.
I’m happy to see that these children have received so much love and support after having experienced pointblank mean-spirited racism.
For once, a story on this website actually has a happy ending!
all i can say to this story is simple,im a bald white dude with fuzz on my face and i wear shades,im a former biker {and am in face book}.this fuckin story makes me DAMN GLAD I WENT FOR MR.BARACK OBAMA. my piece of shit sperm donor and the bitch that had me were big time racist.thank the devil im not.OBAMA ROCKS
hmmm…i can clearly see both sides. on one hand, the members of the club do have the right to complain. maybe the club owner should have discussed it with them first.
on the other hand, those kids had nothing to do with those grown up decisions and comments. anything that those people had to complain about should not have ever been seen , heard, or acknowledged by those kids, regardless of anything.
about the racism thing, i can definitely say that it is alive and well. as someone who has come from a very mixed family ( me and my mother being black, my step father white, and my brother mixed) i cannot count the dirty looks we have gotten or the amount of times something was no longer available to us because of one of our skin colors ( or maybe a combo of all of them?)
all im saying is dont underestimate the stupidity and ignorance of people, even in 2010.
I grew up poor and white in rural upstate New York. There were no summer camps for me to go to, no special adults that helped mewith my problems, nobody gave me a damn thing. The only thing worse than growing up in poverty is growing up white and poor; rich white people laugh at you, and there are no organizations out there that try and help you.
I actually find it ironic that you would post about this and be upset about what happened to these kids (as you should, it was horrible and I’m glad their club was shut down) but a few pages over, tolerate an unneccessary, homophobic screed in the midst of a poorly written update. Replace “the BLACK uncle” in that article and you’ve got the same thing. When you show hate against gay people it’s just as bad as hating someone who is a different color.
Who posted what on the where now? Please to be unconfusing me now, thank you.
Yeah, what ARE you talking about Donna? I haven’t got a clue what you’re talking about.
I figure she’s probably a mom from that club, and is upset because we’re judging them based on their actions. That’s not fair, ya know. You shouldn’t judge someone as a racist based on their actions, especially if they have a black friend…
She also might be posting from a Crack Mansion in the area, which would explain the snooty, indignant lack of coherence.
I am partially white, and partially black. Most people would refer to me as being “mixed.” I wonder how those people would feel about having me swim in their stupid pool. IF I happen to go to that pool, and I pay money to swim there, and I get tossed out of there because I am not white enough, I can SUE THE BEJESUS OUT OF THEM> and I WILL DO IT. That’s what the group should have done, refuse to take back the money when these snobs tried to refund it, and instead, sued the holy hell out of this club.
I am so white I’m nearly transparent but the only reason I’d bother with their damn pool is if I had to pee. Other than that, screw them and their disgusting prejudice. There are other places to cool off, that will have many more interesting people. Why go out in public if you don’t want to deal with people? If you can’t handle diversity, just talk to yourself in the mirror, you pussy. People come in all colors and sizes. I’m so glad this world isn’t whitewashed!