John Patrick Violette
John Violette has been described by his friends and family, as a great man. A fun, laid back surfer dude type of guy, with a winning personality who made friends easily. He was a family man, a church going man, the devoted husband of his wife Amber and a doting father to their daughter Katlin. Life was good for John. He had a steady job working for Lowe’s Home Improvement, a lovely home, a caring wife, and a beautiful 4 year old little girl.So what could ever cause a man like this to snap and commit an act of unspeakable horror? Perhaps years and years of untreated schizophrenia.
John Violette’s first trip to a California psychiatric hospital was back in the 1990′s. John was in his mid twenties and was displaying behavior that had grown increasingly bizarre. Behavior such as violent outbursts, talking to voices no one else could hear, paranoia, thinking people were following him, and trying to jump from a moving vehicle. His family also speculates that John was using drugs, but could never officially verify what, if any, he was using.
The family tried to enter John into a drug rehabilitation program, but he ran out, later turning up at a hospital emergency room in a frenzied state. Drug screens done that night could show nothing in his system. John was readmitted to a mental health facility. After a short stint in the hospital, a doctor officially diagnosed John Violette as a paranoid schizophrenic and recommend that he be released with a prescription for an anti-psychotic medication to keep his illness under control.
After returning home in his newly medicated state, his family became concerned that the pills he was taking were making him sluggish. They notice his speech had slowed a bit. Doubtful of the doctor’s schizophrenia diagnosis, John’s sister Denise urged him to stop taking his medication. He did. According to Denise, that was the last time John ever took medication to keep his paranoid schizophrenia under control.
After a few months, John seemed to be on the mend. He felt well enough to move away from his family in California and make a move to North Carolina. It was there that he started attending a Baptist church and frequenting their social events for singles. It was there at the Colonial Baptist Church that he met his future wife Amber. The couple fell in love and got married. For a few years all was well. John was able to maintain steady employment, the couple continued to attend church on a regular basis, and in 2002 after purchasing a new home their daughter Katlin was born.
At this point, it might seem as though John’s troubled past was behind him. But schizophrenia is not a mental illness to be taken lightly. People who suffer from this disease can suppress it for years and be perfectly fine, upstanding members of society. But more often than not, something snaps. Voices start being heard again. The looming dread of being followed starts to creep back in to every day life. You start feeling the grip of panic more and more frequently. Suddenly loved ones begin to look evil. Houseplants begin to look like strategically concealed microphones, recording your every word. Grocery store cashiers look like government agents sent to profile your every purchase. The hell of living this existence alone started to wear on John Violette. So he did what any man who put his faith in God would do. He read his bible.
On the morning of January 12th 2007, Amber Violette was preparing for a day at work as usual. John had abruptly quit his job with Lowe’s the day before, and was acting a bit… off. Katlin Violette, undoubtedly too young to understand that anything might be wrong with her father, was looking forward to a day of alone time with her dad. After all, John had always been the “fun” parent who loved to organize living room campouts and joke around. But that morning, it seemed as though that was the last thing on John’s mind.
As his wife prepared to leave, John begged her repeatedly to stay. Clearly terrified he explained to his wife that the apocalypse was imminent, and that a major disaster was primed to wipe out the eastern seaboard. Perhaps upon hearing this, Amber briefly considered calling out of work that day. Perhaps she thought she ought to stay with her husband, or hire a sitter for Katlin while she brought him to the nearest health facility. Any of these options would have been better than the chaos that was going to unfold, but that morning Amber left her ranting and visibly distraught husband and went to work.
Now the voices in John’s head were getting louder. Angrier. In John’s mind he was hearing the voice of God that morning, and God was telling him that his daughter had been invaded by an evil force. This was not John’s first time hearing the voice of God in his head. A month earlier, God had told him he could help save the world from evil and destruction by joining the “Christ Intelligence Agency”… CIA. The voice grew more persistent, telling John that the only way to rid the world of this demon was to kill it, and remove it’s head so that the spirit could not re-inhabit the body. So John did what he was told. He ran into the kitchen, grabbed a knife and stabbed his daughter to death. After he was sure she had died he decapitated her, stuffing her head into a trash can and commanding the family’s dog to make sure the spirit did not escape.
Then, John Violette ran.
In John’s mind, he needed to get off the east coast. He needed to get to other members of the Christ Intelligence Agency in Montana, to await the end of the world as predicted in the bible’s book of Revelation. Problem was, John wasn’t able to book a flight. He found one to Washington DC and boarded the plane. I wonder if any of the crew noticed him acting strangely? If he tried to share his predictions. He must have had the mental clarity to change his clothing before attempting to board an airplane. After many flights, I have been delayed more than once over a lighter or a silver belt buckle, so I’m sure if he’d shown up covered in his daughter’s blood, someone would have noticed. Once he got to DC, John holed himself up in a hotel with his bible and waited for the worst.
Around lunchtime, Amber came home to check in on her husband and daughter. Perhaps she was concerned about her husband’s strange behavior that morning, but it was well known that the family frequently made time to have lunch together so it wouldn’t have been unusual for her to come home mid day. But this day, something had gone horribly, hideously wrong. Upon walking into her home, Amber found her daughter’s headless body laying in the hallway. There was blood everywhere. John was nowhere to be found.
*I have to pause here and calm my lurching stomach. I cannot imagine the absolute horror that woman must have experienced seeing her baby that way.*
Amber frantically dialed 911, knowing there was nothing she could do. In a chilling call, Amber can he heard telling the dispatcher:
“Her head’s off! I can’t do anything! She’s dead! Don’t you get it? I can’t look! I can’t look! My baby … that’s my baby!”
Amber stood there amidst the chaos. She had expected to come home and have lunch with the two people she loved most in the world, but relatively speaking, both of them were already gone. Police arrived and began following the paper trail John had left that morning on his credit card, for both the plane ticket to Washington DC and the hotel he was staying at. When Police finally caught up with him, he was screaming excerpts from the book of Revelation and warning the officers that the end was near. After nearly ten years of keeping his illness dormant, John had finally reached the end of the line. He was immediately placed under arrest for the murder of his daughter Katlin.
John Violette’s trial was wrought with emotion and grief. Family and friends insisted over and over that this was not the man they had known and loved. They collectively wondered why this tragedy had happened. What I find frustrating, is that all the signs were there, and no one did anything.
John had been diagnosed as a schizophrenic and his family refused to believe the doctor, after putting him in the hospital looking for answers. He was put on medication to get his delusions under control and his family encouraged him to stop taking it. He quit his job and began sharing disturbing theories about the end of the world, but still he was left alone with a helpless child while his wife went to work and no one did anything. John Violette was left to fall through the cracks and a little girl lost her life over something that could have been prevented. “”I look back and I think, ‘We should never have let him out of that place’ said Denise Violette, John’s sister. As they say, hindsight is always 20/20.
John never stood trial for his daughter’s murder. His attorney Bob Denning entered a plea of insanity, saying that John Violette had no idea what he was doing the day he murdered his daughter and could not be held accountable. In a statement pleading for mercy from the court, Amber Violette begged for her husband to be placed into a mental hospital instead of a prison. “I want him to be treated. I still have hope” said Amber. Three doctors who testified at the trial were in agreement that this was a deeply disturbed man, not a criminal. On Thursday January 3rd, 2008 nearly one year after the murder of Katlin Violette, Superior Court Judge Jack Thompson declared John Violette not guilty by reason of insanity.
But John Violette might be walking the streets sometime in the near future. Since he was never proven guilty of committing a crime, he has been detained at the Dorothea Dix Hospital in North Carolina. He will remain there until he can prove to a judge that he has been fully rehabilitated and capable of re-entering society *shudder*.
Amber continues to stand by her husband, telling people who question her loyalty to the man who killed her child, “John is the most loving, compassionate, gentle man. And I know he would never do anything like this unless something were wrong.”
Does John Violette deserve hell? I’m not sure. He’s clearly a very sick individual. Does he deserve hell based on the fact that he killed his own daughter? Or was John Violette simply a victim of a support system that failed him. A family who refused to take his diagnosis seriously? A family who encouraged him to get off his medication after witnessing his increasingly psychotic behavior? Surely no one thought it would escalate to this point. I guess no one will know in this lifetime. For now, I can only say this: take mental problems very seriously. No one can afford to brush off any diagnosis, especially one as serious as schizophrenia. Rest in peace, Katlin. I hope the Violette family is able to find some peace.
Does Anyone Deserve Hell? Pick all that apply.
- John Violette's family, for encouraging him to stop taking his medication. (40%, 577 Votes)
- No one deserves Hell. (35%, 500 Votes)
- John Violette does. (16%, 224 Votes)
- Amber Violette, for leaving John home alone with Katlin. (8%, 116 Votes)
- Judge Jack Thompson, for letting Violette off the hook. (1%, 27 Votes)
Total Voters: 1,444
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88 Comments »
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another example of ‘the system’ failing. it’s terrible that the price was the life of a little girl. but really, enough parental horror stories, please.
Sorry if my parental horror story disturbed you, Katie. But as a mother, I like to know when dudes like this are running around out in society. I want to know about every possible parental horror story I can get my hands on because knowing about the scary people that live in my world might someday prevent some weirdo harming my kid. I know what you mean though, it does get really depressing after awhile.
Considering that this is PYSIH, that’s a rather strange request, wouldn’t you say?
What we should be asking for is no more horrible parents.
If you don’t like it, then don’t read it.
I used to wince when I read stories about parents/anyone murdering little ones, and of course I still do. However, I feel it is out obligation and our DUTY to read these horrible stories, absorb them, and make a concerted effort to remember them.
We owe these children. We owe them to listen and hear, and always remember them.
If you can’t hack reading what they went through….for god’s sake imagine having to have to actually endure it. But see we have the luxury of never knowing the agony that they knew. The very least we can do is hear them, even if it is indirectly.
Quit being so paranoid you sound like he would. We make our own reality.
I personally don’t feel that he deserves hell, because something as severe as Schizophrenia Paranoid is serious, and the sufferers do NOT comprehend what is real and what isn’t….
I would reccommend for those who haven’t seen the movie, watch A Beautiful Mind.
It will blow yours.
his sister and wife’s stupid decisions blow my mind! poor, poor baby katlin. :(
Technically, his wife’s decisions weren’t stupid, I doubt she ever knew about his previous diagnosis. I give her credit though for wanting him to get better. She is a wonderful person. I wouldn’t have the strength to do that, I probably would have blown him away in the courtroom for murdering my baby.
As far as I could tell, no one in John Violette’s family ever told Amber that he had been in and out on mental institutions…. bad idea.
I have to wonder about his family and his wife. What the hell where they thinking??
The family deserves hell for convincing him to stop taking meds. It is so difficult to get people with schizophrenia to take meds. The meds have serious side effects and the person starts to believe they are being poisoned. Nothing like having an ignorant family member support the idea of stopping the meds!
And, here is a man begging his wife to stay home because he is delusional and she goes to work. If she had stayed home, she might have been killed too–or she might have provided the stability/safety he desperately needed and/or protect her baby. BUT, to do NOTHING?!?!? The man is talking crazy, begging her to stay because the end of the world is at hand and she does NOTHING! WTF?!?
There are genuinely insane people and this guy sounds like he is one of them. Too bad he, and thus Katlin, were failed by his family and wife.
RIP Katlin!!!
Wow. OK, first off – no hell. John is already there in his mind, at least.
This is not a case of evil behavior, nor is it a case of a selfish man with no self-control. He didn’t “punish” his child because she misbehaved – he was truly insane. I am thinking that this is exactly why we have laws that exclude insane people from punishment.
However, I don’t believe that he should ever be allowed back into society. If he could kill his own child, there is no justification for ever believing he could not be a danger to society. Maybe he will get some medication that “might” help, but we can’t watch him to be sure he takes it. And we can’t monitor him to be sure that it CONTINUES to work.
His family was wrong to encourage him to stop treatment, but I believe that they did not mean any harm by it. I would suspect that they did it out of love, compassion and ignorance. The drugged John was not the man they knew, so they assumed that it was the drugs that were bad. Unfortunately, that’s the bad side of psychotropic drugs. They DO make people different – as do lobotomies or shock therapy. The balance is in deciding whether the drugged version is better off than the undrugged version of the person.
I can understand his wife’s support. While he committed the ultimate crime, he did not do it from spite, anger or emotions. He did not know what he was doing.
All that said, I do NOT agree with anyone suggesting that John be allowed freedom, ever again.His wife – being a religious woman – can decide whether to remain his wife and accept the fact that her husband is insane and will be away from her forever, or divorce him and move on. Those are the only legitimate choices. If she pushes for his release, then she is an idiot.
BTW – EXCELLENT write up Moop.
Thank you so much Mazzi! I know, I am iffy about condemning insane people too… but this could have been prevented in so many ways. I actually admire his wife for standing by him in a way, I don’t think I could do it.
I agree a lot with Mazzi.
The “systm” failed and the family did as well.
The wife ahould have been told by the family about his past, maybe she’d have acted differently that day.
BUT
This story shows how much we need the old State Asylums as a means of preventing such tragedies. Yes every system will never be perfect, but our punitive (punishment) system became “correctional” and somewhere along the line the people who needed help BUT did not commit a crime fell through a crack……
I feel that the punitive system needs to be brought back, while lesser criminals needs a “corectional” system. Then bring back the asylums for people like this.
I voted that the family should be in hell, but honestly I really hope that they have to live the rest of their lives remembering how they failed this little girl. The father may have been insane, then if his meds make him sane again, he will be in his own living hell every day. The family is the one that has to live with the mistakes they made with Violette, and I hope they pay every day emotionally.
The saying goes, “Never go for the kill when you can go for the pain.”
he might be a little nuts not so nuts to not change his clothes and high tail it out of town.
he goes to hell along with his bride
Ahhh Tater – I think that the fact that he left the way he did, is actually a sign of the insanity. If he were really just an evil abuser, he would have either gone underground, or tried to cover it up, depending on how stupid he was. In this case, it seems like he left a clear paper trail, because he was unaware that what he did was wrong. He thought that he was doing what God told him to – how could that be wrong in his own mind? In other words, he didn’t run to escape punishment, which would be the sign of an “aware” person.
You know the fucking mental health system sucks. I am fine example of it. I suffer from borderline personality, manic depression and obsessive compulsive. I am on social security disability, yet can not get any help at all to treat my conditions. They expect me to pay the first $200 of the bill and then almost half of the rest of the bills. So I am left to just suffer since I can not afford to get help. Wonderful system huh? It’s either get help and have no where for my son and I to live or have somewhere to live and get no help. WTF!
oh my goodness, aren’t there clinics that can help based on your income? call 311 or google some help. God forbid we read about you on here! joking joking, but seriously there is help out there if you honestly need it. maybe even just some counseling.
Ya not around here. The only help you get is if you don’t get any income really. I get just enough to barely live, but yet too much for help.
oh :( have you tried meditation? physical, and mental?
Wow……just WOW. This is the first one I’ve read on this site that I think is truly, undeniably fucking insane. Most of the time I consider that a cop-out. This is so sad. His family obviously screwed the pooch by encouraging him to quit his meds….but I feel like it was more like denial and ignorance than malice. His wife…..well even if she had no clue about his mental health past, I would be tripped out if I heard my man ranting like that, and I think I would have taken him to the ER once I realized he was serious. But again….I don’t think it was bad intent or negligence on her part, just a severe underestimation of the problem. I guess I think no one deserves hell here, although this is painfully sad. I hope he is forcibly put on meds and therapy for the rest of his (un-free) life…..once he is “sane” and realizes the horror of what he did, that’s pretty much hell on earth.
I remember when this happened, but never learned much about the case. However, after reading this excellent write-up, I find myself a little off my usual balance in regard to my opinion of extenuating circumstances.
Normally, I scoff at insanity pleas. I do realize that mental illness can really screw someone up, and I believe that some people really do have it, but I’m so jaded because it seems that this is the most common defense, and IMO seldom is very true.
This guy though, I almost am willing to consider he may indeed have been ill enough to cause this. On a House episode one time, the patient was a woman who had tried to drown her baby, and then she made subsequent attempts until she finally smothered him. Of course, with it being House, the murder was explained away by a physical illness. They offered her the cure, but she refused, having to face the horror of what she had done. I could not imagine that feeling–if some outside influence such as illness caused me to do something, and then having to face reality when I was well again.
If this guy was truly unable to understand reality, and is now “cured” with proper meds, I know that he will be punished much more than anything we could ever do to him. IF it was illness, I would understand if he received a life sentence. I do think he deserves lifelong lock-up–he has already shown what he will do if he cannot receive his meds.
Anyway–thanks for the article. I read this blog all the time but have not commented yet. This one is definitely a hard one to outright judge. :/
“If this guy was truly unable to understand reality, and is now “cured” with proper meds, I know that he will be punished much more than anything we could ever do to him. ”
Exactly. This was my sentiment as well when I was writing this. John Violette will be in hell every day for the rest of his life over this.
I feel like he should of at least had a mandatory sentence even if in a mental hospital. I just think sometimes people put too much trust into “the system” and what happens if he snaps again in 15 years.
This guy is obviously out of his mind, and has a family and a wife who knew he was nuts and were too apathetic or foolishly optimistic to take it seriously. A little girl paid a big price for that, but she’s dead, her troubles are over. The person I feel the most sorry for here is John. While it must have been inconceivably horrific for Amber to come home and find her daughter’s butchered body (and realize in hindsight she was partially responsible for being stupid enough to leave her alone with a man who was obviously delusional), I cannot fathom the absolute Hell John must have gone through when/if he had that first moment of clarity and realized what he did. Amber, his family, and even most of the people here at PYSIH all seem to have forgiven him. But will he ever be able to forgive himself? I doubt it.
I really want to rip into mom here, but I imagine she is doing that enough on her own right now. I can’t imagine how she must feel. That said, I would never leave my child in the care of someone who was acting like this- these people usually don’t “flip” one day- they show lots and lots of signs beforehand… It kils me when people ignore these warning signs, especially when the person acting nuts has a child in their care. Otty Sanchez, anyone? People- SPEAK UP! These kids lives didn’t have to be lost. That’s all I got. I agree with everything Mazzi said, as usual.
Please watch the episode of Frontline called The Released. I just watched it two days ago online and it’s odd that this story came up on pysih today. It follows the stories of 5 men who are very mental ill and what happens to them when they are released back into society from either prison or treatment. It gives a stark look at how debilitating Schizophrenia really is. You get to know these men and really feel for them.
Yeah, this one is just an all-around tragedy. His family was ignorant, his wife had a terrible lapse of judgement, and he was out of his goddamned mind. I am sure everyone involved wishes it had been prevented, especially John and his wife.
I don’t believe that any of the people listed deserve hell. Paranoid schizophrenia is one of the hardest forms of schizophrenia to treat, becuase if a sufferer has an episode, the last thing they usually want to do is take thier meds. That being said, I can see a lot of ways this tragedy could have been avoided, but no one person is guilty of causing this train wreck. My condolences to the family of the child and my heartfelt respect and admiration to Amber Violette, who through all the horror she has seen and felt, still manages to stand by her husband and support him.
There may be hope for John, but Schizophrenia isn’t a disease that people recover from. Speaking as a brother of a sufferer of Schitzophrenia I have witnessed treatment of the disease. Medication and a therapist (Shrink) were what got my sister through her most difficult times. I hope John gets the help he needs and when lucidity strikes him like a 15 lb sledgehammer, I hope that there is someone there to help him cope with the guilt that goes with his actions.
Just an all-around tragedy whichever way you look at it. It’s one of the few times where I believe that the perpetrator actually *is* severely mentally ill and not just faking it to avoid greater consequences.
i don’t think John is hellworthy. I know I complain a lot about people using mental illness as an excuse, but in this case, i think it is valid.
i can’t believe his asshole family though. this guy was skizo… not just a little depressed. why would they go over the doctors heads and tell him to stop taking his meds? who were they to make that decision? obviously they WEREN’T doctors.
as for Amber, I feel for her. Not only is she mourning the loss of a beautiful little girl, but she knows her husband did it, but can’t really hold him responsible. she probably blames herself too because she left them even when her husband begged her to stay.
I pray for this whole family: Amber for strength, John to get better, and his family, to learn how to mind their business and NOT overstep boundaries.
RIP Kaitlin
Once again, a woman has a child with person with mental health issues, and tragedy results. I’m glad some of you can feel sympathy for the mom in this case. But I don’t. Her compassion for her husband is probably her way of dealing with the fact that she left her child to be murdered by a madman. You cannot convince me that he had never exhibited dangerous behavior in her presence before the day he killed their daughter.
Women, if you want to have sex with mentally-unbalanced people, that’s your business. But don’t bring helpless children into the picture.
I wonder if he had told his wife of his mental illness. You cannot ignore the importance of schizo’s taking their meds. The complaint of the meds causing the patient to be “groggy” is common. A family friend of ours had a similar tragedy, although the schizophrenic killed himself, so there was no trial. His entire family knew that he was sick, and they knew that he was not taking his medicine. He said that he could not funtion while on the medicine. Of course, the person that they knew would never hurt anyone, so they didn’t insist that he take the medicine. The thing to remember is that this is not the person that you know!
I don’t know….perhaps there is something harsh about me, but I’m just not feeling one shread of sympathy for a man who beheaded his own daughter and then ran like a little bitch. Mental illness or no mental illness, and I’m still on the fence concerning that one. This whole tragedy seems a bit too calculated for me.
Oh well…I’m always happy to be the odd one out. :)
On a seperate note, fantastic write up as usual Moop !!!!!
I think he deserves Hell, no doubt about it. That is, if such a place exists.
The Insanity Card, The Retard Card, The Ignorance Card are all part of the same deck, only used in the game of BULLSHIT. If it’s real, it’s sad, it’s unfair, but it’s unacceptable to allow these people to be a part of ‘normal society’. Natural Selection finds many ways to work, and I think we’re paying the price of fighting it and trying to keep these perps alive and healthy.
You are the sickest of all
Thank you! I was actually thinking about some past comments you made while writing this article, which is what prompted me to ask the readers if John Violette deserves Hell based solely on what he did. I know you feel that if someone kills a child, that’s it game over you go to Hell and it doesn’t matter what the reason was. Part of me feels the same way, but I also don’t feel I know enough about schizophrenia to believe that he is 100% hellworthy. Many many many aspects of this story did not sit right with me.
It sounds sick, but it would have been fascinating to be able to read his mind that day… to know what exactly he was thinking. No one will ever know other than what he’s told his doctors, but man would that have been fascinating.
I voted his family … but I think they’re probably already in hell. I can’t imagine how you could go on living if you knew that you encouraged someone to stop taking their meds, and they went on to kill their child …
I don’t know about his wife. If she knew about his previous diagnosis, then it was indeed a very, very bad decision to leave him alone with their daughter. if she didn’t, then I would cut her more slack.
Families don’t like to believe these diseases are in their genes, sometimes going so far as to enable each others denial, ostracizing those who see the real problem.
My best friend has been struggling with alcoholism for years. She gets no support from her family, most of whom are alcoholics in denial. She still lives with her mother, who drinks at least one full bottle of champagne a night, as well as numerous glasses of wine during the day. Since it’s wine and champagne, not hard alcohol, her mother insists she’s not an alcoholic. She has my friend, who is struggling with her own alcoholism, open and bring her bottle of champers to her each night. Then she clears away her mothers wine glass. I was over there recently, and as she carried the glass to the kitchen, she nearly took a sip from what was left just out of habit. She didn’t even want it, and said “oops, that almost happened!”. Pardon my Swahili, but FUCK she has a record for drunk driving, and just got out of rehab where she went through full-blown withdrawals complete with hallucinations! Obviously the problem is real, right?
Her whole family is like that. They get roaring drunk as a group for each family gathering. Her mom tells her she’s being paranoid and that I’m being silly, that she doesn’t need help. My friend has yet to slip though her whole family laughs at her for her ‘drama’. She calls me when she feels weak. I am amazed at her strength.
The point of my off-topic tirade is this: If you can’t get support from your family when things like this happen, most times you are absolutely lost if you don’t have strong, faithful friends who know about the problem and support you. Diseases like schizophrenia and alcoholism are insurmountable without a support group, at least in my experience. There are many parts of this story that made me pause and wonder why the people around this poor, lost soul didn’t give him the help he obviously needed. Then I think about denial, the egotistical refusal to believe this kind of thing can happen to someone you know, and all I can do is chalk it up to human fallibility.
Humanity sucks.
To clarify, I meant “This poor, lost soul who deserves the fires of hell up his ass for all eternity, hallelujah, Amen.”
Why the FUCK are all these schizos being left alone with babies and cutting off their heads?
THIS IS THE SECOND MOTHERFUCKING SCHIZO BABY DECAPITATION IN THE PAST MONTH!
Sorry for the caps, but I’m really pissed off. I was diagnosed with schizophrenia ten years ago, but thanks to God, my friends, family, and my shrink things are under control for me. Plus, I take my fucking Haldol EVERY SINGLE DAY.
What the hell was his stupid-ass, ignorant sister THINKING when she told him to stop taking his pills?
I mean, yeah, the pills I take do make me sluggish, sometimes lethargic, sometimes they hurt my stomach a little, sometimes they work a little too well and make me completely emotionless, and sometimes I still do have delusions (ones I can control because I know what’s going on), but at least I’m not chopping off babies’ heads.
Ugh. This is so tragic. Why, oh why don’t people AND professionals take mental illnesses like this more seriously?
You know, you always hear stories of people with conditions like schizophrenia doing horrible things, but you don’t hear often enough that there are more people who deal with these disorders and live near normal lives.. who make good fathers/mothers, husbands/wives, sisters/brothers and friends.. There’s a huge stigma connected with this disorder, and I’m so happy to see someone come out and prove that not all schizophrenics are dangerous people.. I hope things keep going well for you.. I really do..
I agree withyou, Lonny. I’m bipolar, take my meds every day which sometimes make me sick or unable to function to the best of my abilities.
I can also relate to the whole family picture. My father runs one of the largest NASA facilities in the country, and he has NEVER been able to admit to himself or others that I am bipolar. To this very day he claims that all I really need is “more rest” or “to take care of yourself better” and he would be the first one to urge me to forget the meds, all because he cannot admit to himself that his daughter is bipolar because that would reflect badly upon him.
I’m here to tell the normal people that having a major mental illness is like having AIDS; once people know, they treat you completely differently and some people want nothing to do with you after they find out you’re crazy, even though nothing in your relationship has changed except now they know. They then proceed to blame everything that happens on your illness. I’ve been fired from jobs, kicked out of housing and lost boyfriends specifically because they found out I’m bipolar. Now I don’t tell anyone and everything is fine. I take my meds, go to work each day and live a normal life.
Lonny and The Bosses Secretary:
Thank you both for sharing your stories about your disorders. It’s very encouraging and inspiring to others that have disorders to hear that there are others in this world that strive to live normal lives and actually prosper in life despite their disorders.
I can also relate because I have been labeled with post traumatic stress disorder (sexual abuse as a child and because of several rapes as an adult), panic attack disorder, obsessive compulsive disorder, and depression. I have found that some people are very encouraging, some are indifferent, and some treat you as though you have the plague. I have also been treated in these same fashions when people have learned that I was sexually abused and raped. It’s very heartbreaking and damaging internally when others treat you as though you are damaged goods and not as worthy, good or intelligent because you have mental disorders.
My best friend also suffered from schizophrenia and manic depression. She also had the delusions and would become very paranoid. Wendy’s condition seemed to worsen as we grew older, but it could be managed with medication. As long as she took her meds without mixing drugs or alcohol, she was the Wendy I grew up with. Wendy became addicted to alcohol, xanax, and those damn speed tablets called “Heads Up” that is sold in convenience stores. Long story short, it made her worse. She became involved with a guy who was very abusive and insisted she not take the meds, so she would try to accomodate his desires. After a DUI, she was court ordered into drug and mental health treatment into a lock down facility. The last time I saw her before she got out, she looked great and it was a great visit with my real best friend. After she got out of the facility, she was out for about a week when she went missing. Her family and I searched for her everywhere we could think of for over a week with no luck. Finally, it occured to me that I had not checked the pool house on some property owned by her family. It was February 2000 and it was really cold in Florida for once. I could not get in touch with any of her family members, but I felt that I couldn’t wait and drove over to the property quickly. I saw her car and felt a huge wave of relief rush over me and I just wanted to hug her and then shake her for scaring all of us that way. I ran to the door and knocked several times, but there was no answer. I wasn’t leaving and proceeded to bust the door in…..I walked into a quiet room. There she lay on the floor with half of her face blown off from the blast of a shotgun. I will never erase the horror of that from my mind. Long story short, the medical examiner could not determine a cause of death (whether it was suicide or homicide). The police declared the case a suicide once they found out she was a schizophrenic that had a history of missing her meds, along with drug and alcohol problems. Several of the detectives came to her family and myself after the case was closed stating that they felt that the man she was seeing at the time was responsible for her death. (I hated this guy….there are many reasons why, but she would tell us that she was no longer seeing him and then go see him secretly.) In the end all that doesn’t bring back my best friend who was like my sister and erase the horrible vision of my last memory of her from my mind.
To everyone that has family members with mental disorders: Please encourage them to take their meds and refrain from alcohol/drug abuse. Never encourage them to discontinue their meds because you are not a doctor that is qualified to treat mental disorders. If your loved one exhibits symptoms that you are concerned about, talk with your loved one and their doctor to remedy the situation. NEVER ENCOURAGE A PERSON WITH MENTAL DISORDERS TO STOP TAKING THEIR MEDS! Doctors put people with mental disorders on these medications for a reason and they are the ones that are qualified to make the medical diagnosis.
To the mother and family of Katlin….I am so sorry for your loss of this beautiful little girl. This entire situation is so tragic because it could have been prevented. I hope that John will get the help and treatment that he needs for his mental disorders. Also, I also hope that he has a good treatment plan once his is stable and he has to deal with the tragic realization of Katlin’s death by his hands. I will keep your family in my thoughts and prayers. RIP Katlin….you will be missed!
Moop……I forgot to mention that you did a great job on this article and on the others you have written!! Keep up the great work. I haven’t commented back and forth with you yet, but I am a pretty regular poster on PYSIH. I’ve kind of been out of the loop for the last couple of weeks because I’ve been backed up with ballgown, corset, and showgirl costume orders that I have had to get done and ready for several upcoming shows. Anyway, I have enjoyed reading your articles and your comments on these threads. It’s always nice to see intelligent and well thought out comments from others that share many of your own same beliefs. I hope you have a great day!!
Thank you so much, Corset Lass! As a former theater tech myself, it sounds like you have the coolest job in the world lol. I love the law, I’m fascinated by crime and I love that there are people on websites like this who keep the victims and criminals in the front of people’s minds. It’s very important for people to be aware.
*sigh* And I was feeling like shit because I’ve blown through my 30 days of outpatient therapy insurance coverage…
This whole story makes me very sad. Families of people with mental illness need to educate themselves about it, and know what the side affects of medicines are. Just because he was speaking slowly was no reason to ask him to stop taking his meds.
The state of mental health care in this country is pathetic. Serious conditions are subjected to the same insurance bullshit as someone who just needs to learn a few new lifestyle habits to get over a bad year or a mild anxiety disorder. And if someone’s that seriously ill, they probably do need to be monitored by a doctor, and their medication checked periodically. And maybe these things won’t happen.
A-FRICKEN-MEN!! ..
This whole story was incredibly heart-breaking.. but things like this need to be brought to light as examples of why psychiatric treatment IS necessary in a lot of cases.. Its crazy (no pun intenteded) that in this day and age people can still actually say that psychaitry is completely evil.. UGH.. Not perfect by any means.. but the best choice for some..
It’s POSSIBLE to keep an eye on him/medicated if he were to be released. (You can have court-ordered injections.) I mean…if the system worked properly, he wouldn’t just be released back into the population without any sort of supervision. Meh.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/asylums/view/
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/released/
He can go to hell with his “voices” and they can keep him company. IDIOTS! People need to take responsibility for their ACTIONS… CRAZY OR NOT! Put him on Medication and put him behind bars F-o-r-e-v-e-r and if Amber wants to go with him great for her!
Responsibility assumes that you have control over your actions and that you know what you’re doing.
If you see a wolf charging at you and you shoot it, then it turns out to be a little girl even though you clearly saw a wolf, you’re not responsible. Doesn’t mean you can be let out if you’re seeing wolves everywhere, but you’re not evil. Evil is knowing that you’re doing something wrong and doing it anyway.
That said, I actually think that the most merciful thing would be to either euthanize this guy (which I’d want if I were him), or to lock him in a padded room with no medication.
Why no meds? Because if he’s sane then he has to live with what he did even though it wasn’t his fault. If he’s crazy he won’t understand what he’s done. I’d call that merciful. If it were me and I couldn’t commit suicide, I would never want to be aware of reality again.
You are misleading your readers. Schizophrenia is not an illness that goes dormant. It is an illness that must be medicated for a life time and there is no cure. There are so many misconceptions about this mental illness that I felt I couldn’t let this one slide.
You wrote…
“At this point, it might seem as though John’s troubled past was behind him. But schizophrenia is not a mental illness to be taken lightly. People who suffer from this disease can suppress it for years and be perfectly fine, upstanding members of society. But more often than not, something snaps. Voices start being heard again. The looming dread of being followed starts to creep back in to every day life. You start feeling the grip of panic more and more frequently. Suddenly loved ones begin to look evil. Houseplants begin to look like strategically concealed microphones, recording your every word. Grocery store cashiers look like government agents sent to profile your every purchase.”
Liz,
I am not misleading anyone. I do a ton of research every time I do a write up, and I went into this having read individual stories on many different people who suffer with schizophrenia and their family members. The examples I cited were direct symptoms which people recalled experiencing while they were not being medicated for their illness. I researched several different articles which confirmed that yes, schizophrenia does not cure itself, but it very much can lay dormant for years, as it did with John Violette. Sorry, I don’t see how anything written here is misleading. If you would like me to compile some articles I researched for you, I will glady e-mail them if you would like.
I can attest that Moop does indeed do extensive research on her articles – I know this because I taught her. In fact, this may be one of those cases where the student has surpassed the teacher. One thing is for sure – if Moop puts something into one of her stories, you can feel confident that it’s been verified and is the God’s honest truth.
I think the burden is on you to prove that what YOU say is true Liz.
Thanks Max! I don’t mind anyone challenging something I’ve written but to say I was trying to be misleading I think was a bit uncalled for. Your confidence in me is very much appreciated and you have been an awesome teacher indeed.
Even if it doesn’t go dormant for a number of years, the afflicted person could keep it a secret, because believe it or not, they are aware of the condition and some are embarrassed to admit they see things that aren’t there.
Or, they can ignore their delusions.
Good movie to watch: A Beautiful Mind.
I watched it in my psych 101 class and I found it to be interesting.
Also had to add… John Violette experience many symptoms in his twenties as a result of his schizophrenia (which he was diagnosed with and medicated for) that did not surface at all during his marriage, according to his wife and friends. His illness had been classified as “laying dormant.” This can and does happen to people with this illness. True, the schizophrenia does not go away, but the person who is suffering from it may very well not show symptoms, as John Violette clearly did not for almost 10 years.
Some interesting reading…
Expert from: Contemporary Issues in the Treatment of Schizophrenia by Christian L. Shriqui and Henry A. Nasrallah
“Prior to the onset of schizophrenia, there are a number of years during which the individual, unless carefully tested (Cornblatt et al. 1992), does not appear to be obviously abnormal. During this time, the illness appears to be dormant.”
From: Zarcrom.com, article by Bob Singer who cited sources such as WebMD and the Philidelphia Enquirer for his research:
“Common symptoms for those diagnosed with Schizophrenia can include one or more of the following: Talking to themselves as if talking to another person, who is not there;
Believing in the ideal that others are plotting against them in some way or following them, much like a paranoia;
Believing that their thoughts are being interfered with or that they can influence another’s thoughts;
They may talk about or write things that does not make sense;
They may feel that they are famous people or associated with famous people;
They sometimes withdraw completely from family and friends.”
Great article on the onset of schizophrenia and it’s affect on patients:
http://books.google.com/books?id=ut79yW-IZx4C&pg=PA396&lpg=PA396&dq=can+schizophrenia+be+dormant+for+years&source=bl&ots=jjU47XFs2N&sig=s7giXjJ7fN1yyV_wZKlpq5WQKGg&hl=en&ei=A26ISvv9Kc6BtgeBsNnnDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6#v=onepage&q=&f=false
Symptoms
By Mayo Clinic staff
Signs and symptoms of paranoid schizophrenia may include:
Auditory hallucinations, such as hearing voices
Delusions, such as believing a co-worker wants to poison you
Anxiety
Anger
Aloofness
Violence
Verbal confrontations
Patronizing manner
Suicidal thoughts and behavior
With paranoid schizophrenia, you’re less likely to be affected by mood problems or problems with thinking, concentration and attention. Instead, you’re most affected by what are known as positive symptoms.
Positive symptoms
Positive symptoms are symptoms that indicate the presence of unusual thoughts and perceptions that often involve a loss of contact with reality. Delusions and hallucinations are considered positive symptoms of paranoid schizophrenia.
Delusions. In paranoid schizophrenia, delusions are often focused on the perception that you’re being singled out for harm. Your brain misinterprets experiences and you hold on to these false beliefs despite evidence to the contrary. For instance, you may believe that the government is monitoring every move you make or that a co-worker is poisoning your lunch. You may also have delusions of grandeur — the belief that you can fly, that you’re famous or that you have a relationship with a famous person, for example. Delusions can result in aggression or violence if you believe you must act in self-defense against those who want to harm you.
Auditory hallucinations. An auditory hallucination is the perception of sound — usually voices — that no one else hears. The sounds may be a single voice or many voices. These voices may talk either to you or to each other. The voices are usually unpleasant. They may give a running critique of what you’re thinking or doing, or they may harass you about real or imagined faults. Voices may also command you to do things that can be harmful to yourself or to others. When you have paranoid schizophrenia, these voices seem real. You may talk to or shout at the voices.
Who cares if he’s schizophrenic? He should never be a free man again. No doctor should ever have the right to let this man back into society, where he could choose to stop taking his medication again and become a danger to us all. But if this does happen, and he feels the urge to decapitate again, I hope his sister is nearby. As for the wife, I have difficulty feeling much sympathy for anyone who would leave their young child alone with a stark raving lunatic. I’ll reserve my sympathy for any children she might have in the future. With judgement like here’s she’ll probably end up marrying a pedophile.
It actually matters a great deal that he is schizophrenic… legally speaking.
Who marries a guy with this problem? And then makes a kid with him? She’s nuts, too.
After reading your response I attempted to do a bit of internet research on the subject of dormancy of schizophrenia after a diagnosis. Short of an early onset diagnosis there is no information in reference to schizophrenics having a period of dormancy after an episode. This is because it does not happen. There is of course a period of dormancy prior to a schizophrenics 1st episode. I re-read several articles about John Violette all of which state his symptoms “appeared dormant”, not that they in fact became dormant. If John Violette was not showing his symptoms it was because he was well enough to mask his delusions from those around him, not that they were dormant. My previous comment was only about that…. not about symptoms or when a schizophrenic is medicated.
… Also for the record I said you were misleading your readers not that you were “trying to mislead your readers.” The word trying implies that you were consciously doing it… and no I don’t think you were.
I stand by what I wrote and the sources I used. Feel free to post some of your sources, I am genuinely interested to read them.
“I look back and I think, ‘We should never have let him out of that place’ said Denise Violette, John’s sister.”
Oh, how I want to beat the shit out of her. If it weren’t for his familys’ ignorant “intervention”, Katlin may very well be alive still today! Stupid, STUPID people! What gives them the right to undiagnose a doctors diagnosis? UGH, they should rot for all I care! I have more tolerance for a mass murdered with a need to kill prostitutes because his abusive mother was one than I do for STUPID PEOPLE!!!! And I’m sure I could find many more examples of societies low lifes to compare to my dislike of stupid people, but I think you guys get the picture. It’s just a shame that his family, particularily his dumb-ass sister, can’t be charged for enabling his actions. UGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
“Technically, his wife’s decisions weren’t stupid, I doubt she ever knew about his previous diagnosis.”
Regardless of whether or not she knew of his previous diagnosis, you bet your ass if my husband was ranting & raving about the Apocolypse and other crazy shit as I was about to leave my child alone with him, the plan would change damn fast! (As his wife prepared to leave, John begged her repeatedly to stay. Clearly terrified he explained to his wife that the apocalypse was imminent, and that a major disaster was primed to wipe out the eastern seaboard) She had to have known something was wrong. being ignorant to his situation cost her her child.
Schizophrenia is serious business.
What scares me the most is if he wouldn’t have killed Kaitlyn, she most likely would have developed the disorder too, because the odds go up with every child you have. It’s hereditary…big time. The reason it scares me is that if that little girl would have grown up having it, the family would have travelled the river Denial again, and refused her medical attention as well.
I’m not saying that she deserved death…but I feel the the ones who should be punished are the relatives. In the county I live in, in Iowa, a person can go to JAIL for refusing a mentally ill person in their care medical attention. JAIL.
I just hope this guy’s wife uses her head with the next child she bears, because if and when he gets out, he could be a danger to that one if she doesn’t stay on top of his regime.
Anyone else seen A Beautiful Mind? That movie is incredible yes, and there are some Schizophrenics out there that can function properly without meds, but eventually they have a psychotic break like the guy in the story and do unspeakable things.
Stay on the meds…sluggish behavior or not.
100% agreement – if you are sluggish on the meds, try changing, there are lots and lots of different medications for the same diagnosis because everyone reacts differently, you just have to keep trying till you get one that works for you.
After the little girl who was murdered by one of the people she trusted most in the whole world, the only other person that I feel absolute heartbreak for is her mother. As a mother, I can’t even… DON’T EVEN WANT TO think about walking into that scene. I wouldn’t, however, stand by the man/person who did that to my baby. No matter how gentle and kind he was before he snapped. I might be a little…. “understanding” as far as blaming his sickness and not so much him, but I know I wouldn’t be able to look at him without wanting to seriously hurt him.
This story was very hard to read about. My husband and I both suffer from depression but luckily we are both being treated and will most likely remain on medication for the rest of our lives. Mental illness is a very deep deep well of a place to be, and it is very lonely. I’m sure now that this man is being treated for this illness the hatred that he will have for himself for the rest of his life will be worse than any punishment we could give out.
I feel especially bad for the mother who probably never had any idea of what her husband was capable of when he was unstable, she will regret leaving that morning for the rest of her life. Very sad story….
I worked with John, and he talked about his wife and kid like they were the light of the world. His wife did not know he was schizophrenic, and no, he did not exhibit any violent tendencies or delusional behaviours while he was with her up until that tragic day. Of course his wife would leave him with their child. Even if he seemed to be having an “off day”, if you ever met John, you also would not EVER suspect him of doing anything violent, especially to his Kaitlin. He was a goofy, funny, laid back, all-around nice guy. He never had a harsh word for anyone. NO ONE in NC saw this coming.. his sister definitely should have kept her nose out of his business, but I’m sure she’s being punished enough every day of her life knowing she had a hand in this tragedy… My mom went to church with these people for a while.. Kailtin was such a sweetheart. The whole thing is just heart-wrenching.
I taught Katlin gymnastics when this tragedy occurred. When I heard the news that day, I could not even begin to believe what had taken place. I sat speechless and crying for hours because I had just seen her 2 days before being the beautiful child she was inside and out. She was my favorite student in her class. She was always, always smiling and was one of the most polite, well behaved students I have ever had.
Her mother brought her to class every week and they attended events that the gym had. Amber is the sweetest person I have ever met. She is soft spoken and has a kind, gentle nature. For example, when she hugged me at the funeral, she apologized for Katlin not being in class the week after she was killed. That broke my heart even worse. To this day, my heart goes out to that wonderful woman. My stomach turns and tears fill my eyes every time I think about the situation, which is often. Amber has the strongest faith and is an amazing woman because I could never imagine dealing with what she deals with every day. During the funeral every prayer included asking for Johns forgiveness and help for him to get well. I was still so angry at the time that I could not believe that Amber was asking for the man that murdered her child to be forgiven, but if she wasn’t mad at him, I realized that I shouldn’t be either.
I know that John was/is sick and I also know how horrific these circumstances were and still are. It makes me so angry that his family wanted him to stop taking the medication because it made him sluggish. I am not wishing anyone burn in hell for any of this because everyone involved is living in hell each and every day. Once John realizes what he did in a healthy mind, he will be crushed to pieces every single day as well.
I don’t know how I feel about him being able to be free again. I just want the best for Amber. It does need to be taken into consideration how serious schizophrenia is and you never know what people that suffer from it are going through. But in the end, the reality of it is that Katlin isn’t here with us anymore, but we do know where she is…
(p.s.- Moop- Wonderful telling of a story I wish I didn’t have to read…)
Why do you think it was schizophrenia? how are you sure it wasn’t God telling him to do that?
I would say God is guilty, for telling him to kill his own daughter!
can you prove to me it wasn’t god saying it to him?
its entirely in his MO to do something like that.
Jepetha was order to kill his daughter by god.
God just told me to tell you that you’re embarrassing him, and you’re a dumbass. GOD’S words, not mine.
I was ordered to tell you that you’re an embarrassing dumbass by god.
Can you prove to me that it wasn’t god saying it to me?
Touche’ Becky….LOL
OK Adam, settle down. Didn’t Doctor Headshrink warn you would happen if you forgot to take your medication?
Can you prove to me that god didn’t tell him to stop taking his medicine?
Pffft.
Didn’t think so.
Wow, that line works for everything! My life is going to be so different now! :D “Can you prove to me that god didn’t tell me to wear this horrible pair of too-tight hotpants to the funeral?” “Can you prove to me that god didn’t tell me to grow my leg hair out?” “Can you prove to me that god didn’t tell me to eat that pie for breakfast?” I GET TO BE A FAT, DISGUSTING LARDSACK, AND BLAME IT ON GOD! I’M SO EXCITED! THANK YOU, ADAM!
God just told me to stop making fun of you because he’s getting giggle-farts. He’s a party pooper. :(
I wouldn’t worry about John getting out.. I’m pretty sure Dorothea Dix will never release him.
I’m sorry I’m so late in commenting on this story, but I only recently found the site and read through it. (Amazing site, btw… love it) I live in NC, very close to where this family lived. I used to work for a local internet service provider and John Violette was one of our customers. We knew him as a customer only, and had no inkling of anything else. I can tell you that he scared the crap out of me once the year before this happened. His service had been interrupted for nonpayment and he came in the office about it. It took no time at all for him to get loud and threatening with us when we informed him that the account would have to be paid up to date in order for service to be restored. Instead of paying and going on his way, like most customers would have, Mr. Violette got very excited and loud, telling us that we better get his service restored or he would be taking action. Well, nothing was accomplished and he eventually left. I had picked up the phone to call the police and I guess that prompted him to stop ranting and leave. I kept expecting him to come back but he never did. I called my boss, who was in our main office in another town, to warn him in case Mr. Violette decided to go there. I was actually scared. That’s how wild he was. Now that I know what he’s capable of, I figure we were actually lucky that he didn’t do more. When I think of what might’ve happened, had he had some sort of mental breakdown at that time, I shudder. He was a scary man, even then. I cannot imagine what he must’ve eventually evolved into.
I am bipolar, and take meds every day b/c I want to live a normal life. I know that I cannot do that without them. I eventually become depressed, paranoid and sometimes even suicidal. I know these things and I know what I have to do to keep them at bay. It’s a fact of my life and I deal with it. I have 3 kids who deserve the best mom they can have, and 5 grandkids who deserve the best grandma. They are not my whole reason for living but they’re a big part of it. Mentally ill people need meds to live happy and productive lives. If they accept that, then that’s half the battle.
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Does John deserve hell? Absolutely not. I knew John personally, I trained him into his position with Lowe’s Home Improvement. I met his wife, I met his daughter. I was asked to testify at his trial(should his case have gone to that point) and I will tell you right now….he does not deserve the literal Hell…..in my opinion he already is. But for you people who don’t see a truly sick individual and want to pass judgement on him or his family saying they does deserve to go to hell…..all I have to say is “You First.”
I can’t believe I’m saying this: This guy begged his wife to stay home. Her motherly instincts should have kicked in. This guy needed some serious help. I’m not defending him, but this could have been avoided if he had gotten the treatment he needed when he started displaying signs of paranoia. His wife is partially to blame.
Ok, so I just stumbled across this. I work on Dix campus currently and when I heard about this guy, I was horrified. First of all, because I have been to the grill where they were employing him. He seemed a bit “off” the few times I did go there. Little did I know the atrocities he committed just a few years before. I was also unaware that he is allowed to walk around the campus UNSUPERVISED for thirty minutes at a time around here. I don’t care the illness, that is very scary. First of all, he’s a paranoid schizophrenic who killed his daughter (it doesn’t matter how the pie is cut, it is still sliced the same way); what makes society think he may not relapse later and be told by “God” that he needs to kill a mass group of people?! Wake up people! The mentally ill that have committed these kinds of heinous crimes should not be let free from an institution and allowed to roam with general populations. No one knows if they will ever relapse.
This story is so sad, the sisters quote was priceless she tells him or encourages him to stop taking his medication and he does then after committing this senseless tragedy, she says “We should have left him in the psychiatric hospital” im sure she could’ve never imagined what was going to happen, but she’s not a doctor, thats why doctors train for at least 8 years so they can make decisions of whats best for a patient.