What Is Emily Bazelon’s Problem?
Ever since Blondie submitted her story about Emily Bazelon’s article “What Really Happened to Phoebe Prince?”, I have thought of little else. Nothing gets to me quite like an attack on a victims character and dignity.
But something about Ms. Bazelon’s piece bothered me more than usual. Now I’m rarely at a loss for words, but when I tried to write about what I was feeling, the words sounded clumsy and hesitant, like two teenagers making their first attempt at physical love.
I knew what Emily Bazelon had written was morally reprehensible, and I could tell you why. It was pretty obvious to just about everyone that she had crossed a line that should not be crossed when she tried to put so much of the blame for Phoebe Prince’s predicament on Phoebe herself. That was easy.
What I couldn’t understand is how an otherwise intelligent person could be so wrong. How did Emily Bazelon become so deluded – so in love with her own ideas – that she was able to justify publishing such an obscenely cruel article, especially one that was as hurtful to Phoebe Prince’s family as this article was? Hadn’t these people suffered enough?
Then it finally hit me what happened when Emily Bazelon wrote this article. As much as she believes she is a journalist, 
the fact is, she is a lawyer. It’s not her fault, and it’s not necessarily a bad thing, except for the fact that lawyers, as a rule, make terrible journalists.
A journalists job is to seek out facts, and to report those facts without regard to their own personal beliefs. A good journalist will incorporate arguments from all sides of an issue into their story and leave it to the reader to make up their own mind.
But a lawyer is a whole different animal. A lawyer starts with an agenda – a set of points he/she needs to prove to (in court) the jury, or in the case of this article, the reader. In Bazelon’s case, she set out to prove that Phoebe Prince was as responsible for the treatment she received as Sean Mulveyhill, Kayla Narey, Austin Renaud, Ashley Longe, Flannery Mullins, and Sharon Chanon Velazquez was.
Now that the lawyer knows what he needs to prove, he goes out and searches out evidence and witnesses to support his/her position. Any evidence that is contrary to that agenda is either ignored or minimized. Again, Emily Bazelon succeeded in doing this by only interviewing defense attorneys, speaking with family and friends of the defendants, and alluding to nameless students and teachers who knew the “real story” about what happened during the weeks and months leading up to Phoebe’s death. She also claims the police reports support her position, but offers no proof to 
back her claim up.
Bazelon tells us that she attempted to get Phoebe Prince’s family’s side of the story, but they wouldn’t speak to her – no surprise really, since they have kept silent about this incident since the beginning.
However, she had other options, most importantly Assistant District Attorney Janine Simonian. Bazelon instead chose to attack Ms. Simonian’s record in another section of her report.
But most of all, a lawyer knows that emotions have no place in this process. It’s strictly business when you decide what direction to go with the “evidence” you have to work with. The only thing that counts is results. She must convince people that Sean Mulveyhill, Kayla Narey, Austin Renaud, Ashley Longe, Flannery Mullins, and Sharon Chanon Velazquez are not the evil kids the mainstream media made them out to be.
And so we end up with this very one sided attack on Phoebe Prince’s character (she stole boyfriends) and mental health (she was depressed, suicidal, and cutting herself long before she was bullied).
But what was most despicable about Ms Bazelon’s article was her assault on the memory of Phoebe Prince. While she didn’t come right out and call Phoebe a promiscuous, weak little girl who got exactly what she deserved, Bazelon walked away from this story with blood dripping from her fangs and the crushed and broken hearts of Phoebe’s mom and dad in each hand.
It was as brilliant an opening argument as I’ve ever heard any defense attorney present in court. I hope she’s proud of herself. The problem is Emily Bazelon wrote it under false pretenses. She told us she cared about Phoebe. She told us she knew what the six defendants did was wrong. She swore that she struggled with the decision to print what she had written. But I believe that none of those statements were truthful in the least. Call me cynical, but I prefer to judge Ms Bazelon on her actions, not her words.
Notes: I was replying to another reader’s comment when my writer’s block about this story finally broke. After some thought, I decided to expand on the comment and post it as an editorial. One thing I’m sure of is that when I have a sudden attack of brilliance it’s only because of Divine inspiration, and I also know I need to write those thoughts down.
341 Comments »
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Oh yeah. She’s a lawyer. That explains why I have the overwhelming urge to stab her with a spork.
Stab her with a spork? I seriously just considered giving you a marriage proposal. I love that.
LMAO
That’s not legal in my state, nor will it ever be. Backward idiots!
Plus I’m already married, and that’s not legal here either! haha
LOL
8)
my spork thinks it’s Batman.
My spork KNOWS it’s Batman.
Does your fork have a back up personality in case it’s enemies drive it insane? Zur en arrh zur en arrh zur en arrh…
This is one of the best comments regarding Mz. Bazelon’s despicable article and even more despicable display of lack of ethics and integrity. She could learn a thing or two from you, Max. Though I know she won’t, seeing as how far her head is stuck up her own ass.
Absolutely.
Ka_fn_ching Max!!!!!
You are one smart feline!! ;-9 Thank you for the piece above. You are soooo right. There *was* something about the journalistic epistle that just “felt” wrong, if you know what I mean. I’ve read hatched jobs before, but there was an added something to her effort that didn’t ring true.
She wrote it under false pretenses. She should state that she is in the slimeballs court as a paid flunky. What luck these 6 shitholes have with Bazelon on their side. If there’s a piece of shitty dirty tricks they haven’t thought of, then shurley she’ll have it ripe and ready.
Thank you Max for the salve on the wounding words this woman spewed.
Can you say “exposed”?
Well said Max! Many unscrupulous attorneys who know certain information will not be allowed to be introduced at trial are reduced to trying to taint the jury in this fashion. They get the prohibited or false information before the jury by any means. Not all attorneys are bad. I know one attorney who considers this website to be her favorite. It’s the bad ones who give the ethical ones a bad name.
Yes, I know of this attorney stcroix. In fact, I have corresponded with her several times, and find her to be one of the cooler people I have been privileged to meet through this website.
I wasn’t trying to suggest that all lawyers are dishonest and without morals. That’s idea is ridiculous on it’s face – no group of people can be all bad, or all good for that matter. Lawyers defend the innocent and prosecute the guilty. Lawyers help to protect our civil rights. But one dishonest, amoral attorney can do an amazing amount of damage to the reputation of lawyers everywhere.
There are many attorneys who are only trying to do good. They’re trying to protect and assist people who otherwise would be railroaded by a very complicated system.
Unfortunately, these good attorneys are lumped together with crapspackle like Emily Bazelon, who really just needs to be slapped a lot. By ‘a lot’, I mean “Constantly, even when she’s sleeping”. What a pig she is.
Slapping, hell. A good sucker punch to the chops is what we need here. Probably wouldnt do much to change La Bazelon’s habits or character — they were formed years ago — but man it would feel great.
I despise her.
Bar association has very strict standards. They can disbar a lawyer for anything. People like Emily Bazelon are bitter and feel like they fail at life, which she clearly shows. She is what I call an enabler. Enablers are just as bad as the aggressor.
I saw a photo of Bazelon. Not very attractive, like the bullies. Like I sad before, the bullies look like other evil figures like Casey Anthony and Ted Bundy.
Applause!! Applause!! to you Max. It is absolutely appauling to me that any of those kids are trying to blame this poor girl since her suicide. The parents of these children understandably are trying to stand by their children in court. I would do the same I am sure but to attempt and enable a child to not have consequences for their actions is a very dangerous thing to do. If my child would have been one of the six…I would be absolutely ashamed that I had raised such a callous little monster and would definately seek help. I also would have been involved enough in my childs life that when the school had come to me with the reprimand because of the bullying there would have been serious consequences then..NOT let it go further and CAUSE this young girl to be further tormented. Maybe just Maybe this case will open some eyes across our country about what can happen if you bully. Rest in Peace Phoebe.
I’m so pissed! I can’t stop thinking about this!
All she really did was string some words together in a really nasty, cold-hearted and inhuman way and publish them online, so wishing her dead isn’t really fair… no matter the obvious fact that she’s such a vicious cunt, the air above her and the earth below her probably vurp at her every move. Can I just grab Bazelon firmly by her cheeks, pull her close and scream directly into her face while I kick her in the shins with my steel toes for a few hours? I’m a metal singer – I can totally handle this. I promise I’ll only play outside, and I’ll put a tarp down first.
Now that’s something I would pay to see… ;-)
BECK, I’ll be there!!
I’ll be in that too, aslong as while your kicking the shins, I can hit her in the head with the baseball bat (asking you to move your hands every time I swing of course :) ….actually just had a mental picture of a ‘bobblehead’…or was it of, one of those things that swing back and forth, (you know the one that looks like a bird rocker…lol…) in my head typing that…..lol…now I can’t stop giggling at the image….hahahahhahaha
Becks >.< You kick all kinds of ass! Also I'd love to get in on the carnage I just wanna tear that evil woman apart!
Max, bless you for writing this. It sticks under my skin when people like Bazelon do rotten things like this. I can only imagine what Phoebe Prince’s loved ones must feel. They have had so so so much shit heaped on them, and now this awful article. La Bazelon had how many thousands of seconds to reconsider, to put down her pen or close her laptop, and avoid this hurtful, gratuitous act. She could even have thought about how much she wanted to do it, longed to do it, thinking it would help her clients and aid her career, but stopped herself after realizing it was not the act of a decent person. But no.
Bazelon I imagine has poor self discipline and the attitude of “If I can do it, it must be okay. Fuck anybody who doesn’t agree!” Sounds like bully material. I dislike using the words hateful and mean spirited, as they get used so inappropriately and indiscriminately that they’ve becme flabby. But this smirking toad is hateful, and she’s mean spirited, and she doesn’t even have the balls to be honest about it. She’s a sneaking coward too.
Bazelon reminds me of people I know who were actually popular in junior high and high school – the tormentors, not the victims. There’s no way she could have seriously written this article unless she was completely oblivious to the daily torture inflicted by the popular crowd and their hangers-on upon the “nobodies” and the nerds, the chubby kids and the kids unlucky enough to look and sound different from everyone else. For the popular, high school was one big party that they loved every minute of. For the rest of us it sucked unremittingly, a daily grind of being mocked and made fun of. I wouldn’t live through another year of high school for all the friggin jewelry at Saks Fifth Avenue. Kids can be more than just “mean”…they can make you want to crawl into a Bacardi bottle for the duration. I’m married to someone who was one of the Big Men On Campus during his high school years. He still considers them the best years of his life. WTH? I only lasted two years at high school and clearly remember HATING every goddamned day of it. It was not only relentlessly boring but I was “teased” (that’s what they used to call bullying) nonstop.
Ugh. High School. “Shudder”.
I’m glad PYSIH is covering this article. I read it and was really shocked at Bazelon’s attitude … as others have said, there’s no WAY the author could have possibly known what it was like to go through that sort of torment every day. I’ll never forget just a month or so when a couple of girls in my middle school decided to torment me incessantly (though nothing like what Phoebe went through). It was sheer hell.
What really shocked me is that Bazelon didn’t address the utter lack of remorse among the accused. Honestly, it would have been one thing if they’d had no idea that Phoebe was depressed or that their actions would result in her suicide, and they were shocked and horrified when they found out what she did. But they appeared downright … gleeful.
Emily Blazelon’s problem is she assumes she will never herself be in the deepest pit of despair, lost/isolated/confused, seeking help, tormented by her peers, and unable to see any solution to her problems except suicide.
Her article is pointless. She wants the reader to think perhaps these bullies are being labeled incorrectly and judged too harshly. She wants the reader to understand that Phoebe was as much, if not more, responsible for the outcome than the bullies.
Her article inadvertently reinforces that the accused were in fact bullying Phoebe and her emotional problems increased because of this. Emily Blazelon’s article never provides any evidence of Phoebe calling names, throwing cans, waiting in groups for a chance to taunt and harass… none of what Phoebe was on the receiving end of.
According to Ms Blazelon, the weak are not to be protected but should be accused of causing problems for people that need to have their ego’s boosted by belittling others; especially if the others are already vulnerable.
I’ve been on both sides of bullying. I hate that I participated in it as much as I hated receiving it. It is an unfortunate, painful part of growing up.
Emily Bazelon should keep her fingers and toes crossed that she never has to experience the pain of feeling her only choice for relief is suicide only to have her death exploited as the reason why someone that would push her into that choice isn’t accountable for their actions.
She fails as a journalist AND as a human being.
Yes, she *does* assume she’ll never be in a place of lost direction. :->
But it seems to me that these people do eventually get what coming their way. Give out enough malevolence and it soon becomes your world.
And I can think of no better reality check for her.
Karma, meet Emily.
Emily Bazelon, the supporters, and the bullies themselves are no better than Nazis Germany or Khmer Rouge. Kinda reminds me of this story.
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D9H732Q80&show_article=1
Their mentality is not all that different in that evil flourishes by people who enable and accept it.
You’re absolutely correct, Max. That whole entire article was nothing but her trying to prove to us that somehow, her screwed up idea was correct.
She purposely painted the perpetrators in a light that would make them see innocent, to try and make us someone dig deep enough inside to find some sympathy for them. I just can’t do that. Something about Phoebe relates to me on a deeper level. I won’t go in to all that here but, I know how she felt. I know what it feels like to go through all that. I know what it feels like to just want to give up.
I also know people just like those that drove her to suicide. They deserve to be punished. They believe they’re innocent. They are not. Anyone who would relentlessly torture someone day after day has some inherently evil quality about them. To lay their heads down at night knowing they were torturing this girl, only to wake up and start the cycle all over again…that truly speaks to their character.
Emily wants us to herald Sean Mulveyhill, why? Because he read an anti-bully speech at one school assembly? That should somehow absolve him from all the torture he inflicted upon Phoebe? It doesn’t make him a hero, it simply shows us what a hypocrite he is.
I think Emily was probably just like these kids were…and in her own mind, she’s trying to rationalize their behavior in order to understand her own….but, in truth, she’s inflicting that same torture on Phoebe’s family. Publishing so many details about Phoebe’s personal life just shows how morally bankrupt the woman truly is. She knows she’s deepening their wounds, and yet she just shoves the knife down deeper. It’s truly sickening.
As a long-time reader, I’ve never commented her before, but I wanted to put it out there that I completely disagree with your stance on Emily’s article.
I’ve been on the receiving end of bullying, and I’ve also done some myself. Maybe it’s a cop out, but I honestly think it’s as simple as being a teenage girl.
Perhaps it’s unfair to put blame on the victim, particularly in a society where suicide is such a delicate issue, but you think it’s okay to put all the blame on those other girls? To prosecute them? Without once considering that maybe they were not the sole catalyst in Phoebe’s problems?
I’m not proud of the things I’ve said and done, and I still smart when I think of some of the things that were said and done to me, but, as an adult, I’ve grown past it, and I imagine every girl involved has as well. What if one of the girls I regularly quarreled with had been suicidal, due in large part to influences on her life that had nothing to do with me?
Instead of being happy and healthy at 21, and in a position where I can see the girls I used to hate and hug them, ask how they’re doing, put all of that behind me, I might have been prosecuted for murder? And turned into a monster in the media? All for doing something she was doing to me, something almost every young girl does??
I’m not saying Phoebe is solely to blame, but think before you condemn the other girls, or Emily Bazelon.
Erin,
I’m almost 33 years old, and I remember almost every hour of every day that I’ve spent awake since seven days before my fourth birthday. It’s considered a sign of intelligence, but I remember things in a sort of fractured pattern that requires me to chain back to things I need. It’s far from perfect for things like remembering the exact formula to use when solving a problem, but it works pretty well remembering libraries of methods in programming languages.
I suffered from some abuse as a child. I remember that very well. Parts of it I can temporarily block out, but that’s the real reason bullies repeat their insults and abusers repeat their abuse. They do it so victims remember. Whether it’s “chubby cheeks” in pre-school, or a baseball bat from the Little League coach’s son, getting locked in a band locker or the flat of a machete blade against your thighs, so it wouldn’t show to your mother when she got home. The purpose is to make the bad live in someone else, not inside the bully. Not inside you. Bullies like my step-father, or that bastard Joe from 7th to 11th grade, had an advantage. I had skipped a grade, so they got to be bigger than me when they hurt me. Now I’m bigger. Now my ex-step-father is dying of cancer. Now Joe is on disability, the wrong party of two divorces, and a miserable alcoholic’s life. I didn’t do this to them. I never got my revenge by bullying them back, even though in his emaciated condition, my step father wouldn’t be a match for me, and Joe’s 6 inches shorter now, and while 75 lbs heavier, that weight doesn’t help.
Do I bully him? No. Did they almost get me to off myself? Maybe a combination of all of it. There were a few slips and falls there, but no, I’m stable now. It’s not about being a victim anymore, it’s about finding someone and somebody to protect–from people like you and Emily. That’s what this boils down to. My revenge is I get to smile at any bully who tries to defend a group who tried to get away with murder, and say, “no, you’re wrong, and I can prove it.” So, I can prove it. I can battle the specter of my demons and in words I can spell out why you aren’t seeing this clearly. Bazelon is pursuing a marketable defense that just isn’t true. She’s hiding behind journalism, but as was so eloquently put, the difference between an attorney and journalism is that Journalism starts and ends with the facts, and an attorney starts with a vision, a story they are going to tell, and finds and reports only on the “facts” or opinions that support her story. Kind of like a bully might try to justify why they weak kid with a skinny, bony body, and a big head with chubby cheeks, deserves to be punished for being a better trombone player, a better student, brighter, and shinier than he is, despite two years of age difference. A bully might find a reason to say it’s okay to push him around. It builds character, just like an abusive parent might say, “I own you, you do what I say or I will hurt you, I will beat you, and even if you did nothing wrong, I will wipe all smiles from your face, because I have a miserable job, a miserable life and someone else must get that miserable put in them, whether with a punch or with something harder.”
There’s a reason why victims who survive this sort of crap, and we’re called survivors for a reason Erin, end up being protectors. We can’t stand by it Erin, because our empathy was honed on monsters, on bullies, and on people like you and Emily. The careless and unsympathetic. We know what’s in you and we know what’s inside your victims, and we know that it’s not just being a teenage girl. It’s not just natural. It’s not clean or sweet or good. And it’s not worth letting go, even one more time.
Have we been reading different articles here, or are you in full “oh-my-god-I-may-have-done-something-horrible” defence mode? What these six shitbags did to Phoebe Prince went way beyond what, as you put it, “something almost every young girl does”. If you can’t see that, or – what’s even worse – if you genuinely believe that, then I suggest you go see a shrink pronto, because you are seriously fucked in the head. Also, I have to say I find your choice of words rather interesting.
If you honestly agree with Emily Bazelon’s article (and please note that I’m not on a first-name basis with that cretinous individual, as you seem to be), and honestly feel that the six shitbags should be exonerated because they are not wholly to blame for what happened, then who would you like to blame? The nameless masses who saw what was happening and gave their silent approval by doing nothing? The school officials? Society in general? Or would you like to keep the buck spinning, so that it doesn’t stop anywhere? Posting “accomplished” on facebook when you find out the girl you’ve been bullying has committed suicide, how the fuck do you justify that? Do you really think you can find an explanation for that which does not imply intent? And don’t you dare give me that motherfucking bullshit that it’s just kids being kids.
Those six shitbags were full of hate and malice and intent. Their actions are fully comparable to murder, and they should bear the responsibility for that.
“I’ve been on the receiving end of bullying, and I’ve also done some myself. Maybe it’s a cop out, but I honestly think it’s as simple as being a teenage girl.” Bullshit. You are one arrogant, hypocritical, fucked-up bitch if you compare yourself with Phoebe Prince and conclude that a) you went through the same shit and humiliation as she did, and b) that that’s just a normal part of growing up.
“I’m not proud of the things I’ve said and done, and I still smart when I think of some of the things that were said and done to me, but, as an adult, I’ve grown past it, and I imagine every girl involved has as well.” Well, you would imagine, wouldn’t you? Your way of coping with the fact that you are a shitbag is to convince yourself that a) everything’s fine and b) what you did wasn’t so bad and c) if anyone ever did find out what you did, you can always victimize yourself and say you were bullied as well. But let me tell you one thing. No-one who has ever been subjected to bullying thinks the way you do. The wounds don’t heal, and the scars don’t fade. You just learn to wear a mask, and you get real fucking careful about who you let into your life. Potential friends have one hell of a battle on their hands to win your trust. Because if you are bullied, you lose faith, not just in yourself, but in everyone.
And you still “smart” when you think about what you’ve done and what has been done to you? “Smart”? You know, that’s an interesting choice of words. You smart when someone teases you, but when you’re bullied, it hurts a whole motherfucking load more than that, and when describing the pain, the word “smart” is among the last ones to come to mind. It’s the diffrence between being embarrassed and feeling genuine regret, between getting slapped on the hand and having your intestines ripped out of your body. Because that’s how being bullied feels – as if someone with rusty claws is slowly ripping you apart, while everyone else around you is throwing salt in the wounds.
“What if one of the girls I regularly quarreled with had been suicidal, due in large part to influences on her life that had nothing to do with me?” Most victims of bullying do not commit suicide, for the simple reason that it’s not an easy thing to do. And most shitbags who do the bullying don’t realize how much it takes to push a person that far. You really think quarreling with someone is the same as bullying? (But I was going to buy that dress! Well tough luck, I found it first! But I saw it first! Yeah, but I wanted it first! No, you didn’t! Yes, I did! You bitch! No, you’re a bitch! Ad infinitum…) I’ve got two words for you: FUCK and YOU!
And nothing to do with you? Again, BULLSHIT! That’s by the way another trait bullies have in common – they avoid any form of responsibility.
Now, I know most people experience bullying at some point in their lives, of one kind or another. But what you need to understand is that there are many different levels of bullying. And that what Phoebe Prince was forced to endure was a tortuous hell far beyond the boundaries of bullying. You may want to defend the six shitbags by saying that they didn’t know what they were doing (BULLSHIT!) or that Phoebe Prince should have been able to handle it better (UTTER FUCKING BULLSHIT), or – and this is where we enter the realm of the complete and utter shitbag – that she in some way is to blame for what happened to her (holy fuck, I think my BULLSHIT chute just exploded…).
I appreciate that you are of a different opinion. But get your facts straight first, read all the articles through once again while keeping your eyes and your mind open, and put your fears of the past coming to bite you in the ass aside. If you do all this, and are still of the opinion that Emily Bazelon is an outstanding journalist and that Phoebe Prince got what she deserved, then I can only hope that whatever demons you are trying to protect yourself from not only find you, but make your life a living hell.
I have no problems seeing you as a bully and a shitbag. If you want to convince me otherwise, you’ll need to work real hard.
Well said Homer especially your next-to-last paragraph.
Amen, Homer. Well said.
Ah Homer.
BRA-fucking-VO!!!!!!
Well said, well written, well done!
As I so often say, cos cheum nach gabh tildeah.
(no retreating footsteps)
Bullying to this degree cannot be attributed to simply being a “teenage girl”. I was a teenage girl and I NEVER in my life subjected anyone to this type of abuse, no matter how much I thought they might deserve it.
These kids knew they were affecting Phoebe in a horrible way. In fact, it seems to me that they reveled in it. Otherwise why would they have continued to do it day after day after day?
And don’t forget that “ACCOMPLISHED” business. To me, that says it all. If I had only 15 seconds to acquaint someone with the need-to-know facts of this case, I would refer the person to these pizzafaces posting “ACCOMPLISHED” after the poor girl’s suicide. That’s the story in a nutshell.
If it makes you feel better Erin, none of the bullies are being charged with murder. The charges that will stick will be for civil rights violation, criminal harassment, and stalking. That’s what they did according to Emily’s article.
What is wrong with the article is there is no proof Phoebe did anything the bullies are being prosecuted for and Phoebe’s fragile state of mind is used as an excuse as to why these bullies should not be prosecuted or prosecuted as harshly. It is the same lame excuse that a person deserved to be raped because they were at a bar or dressed provocatively. Or a parent is justified for child abuse because a toddler made a mess after they were told not to.
Did they kill Phoebe? No. Did they harass her and violate her civil rights? Yes.
Most people that read this blog become infuriated when a victim is blamed, especially one that isn’t around to defend themselves.
These weren’t little children perpetrators. Some were adults and the others very close to being adults. What they did was childish and ILLEGAL. The fact that the victim was already troubled is irrelevant because what happened to her was against the law and that is why they are being prosecuted.
If you have a child and the school and community do nothing to keep your child from being victimized, are you going to turn the other cheek or move or will you involve the law so that your child can get their education without being harassed?
Unfortunately for Phoebe, nobody thought to do anything until after the sad fact.
Emily Bazelon is the worst sort of bully… her victim is dead.
Beautifully said poppy – thanks for your comments. Like you, it didn’t take long for me to figure out that Emily Bazelon was more concerned with what was going to happen to the 6 accused bullies than what had already happened to their victim, Phoebe Prince.
BTW, I loved your closing sentence – “Emily Bazelon is the worst sort of bully… her victim is dead.” I couldn’t have written a better one if tried.
Yes, Max, that last line hits the nail right on the head…
you have to ask yourself, what kind of person would victimize a dead girl in the keen desire to gain accolades? Emily Bazelon.
She doesn’t know just how much this speaks volumes of her true nature and character.
Maybe I’m a little too impatient, or maybe there’s a perfectly natural explanation for this, but I find it interesting that Erin seems to have disappeared like a fart in the Sahara. I mean, one would expect she’d at least try to add some fuel to the shitstorm she managed to brew up by defending herself.
Then it struck me (cue a wet, smacking sound as my sweaty palm slaps against my even sweatier brow) – bullies in general have a tendency to avoid confrontation unless it’s on their own terms.
(I don’t know why, but suddenly I had this really vivid image of Erin in my head, sitting at her computer together with her imaginary friends, slowly shaking her head as she reads all the comments, muttering: “Do you fucking believe these assholes? How can they be so stupid, don’t they know I’m always right? Fucking bastards. You know what I’m going to do? You know what I’m fucking well going to do? I’m going to completely ignore these fucking assholes. That’s right, I’m not going to sink to their level, I’ll just completely fucking ignore them. That’ll teach them not to mess with me.” Then she goes to that wonderful blog she always reads, written by bbss, who is always so in with it, you know, so in tune with her and the world and who also has promised her a spot in the in-crew. Having never encountered a phenomenon called sarcasm before, she thinks it’s all real and never realizes that bbss stands for bimbo bitch spewing shit.)
And speaking of bimbo bitches spewing shit, I just had another thought – what if “Erin” is a cover for a certain disgruntled journalist? Before I develop that thought, let me just say that all characters mentioned here are fictional, and that any resemblance to any person, living or dead or somewhere in between, is purely coincidental. All you lawyers out there can stop stroking your hard-ons. Unless that’s a permanent state of being for you.
Anyway, picture this…
Enema Bassholeon is really trying to make it as a journalist, but it’s tough. While she’s waiting for that big break which will give her the Pulitzer she’s always deserved, she pays the bills by being an “exotic dancer” at a high class gentlemen’s establishment in nearby Skankville, called Five Cent Pussies.
One day she stumbles upon the story of six bullies being charged with stalking, civil rights violation and criminal harassment, and thinks THIS IS IT! She will go on a crusade for the truth, she will defend these six misunderstood, innocent teenagers – hell, what they did was nothing more than what she did herself when she was in school, only back then she had no facebook in which to notch up her victories when those whiny nobodies she had a bit of fun with couldn’t handle it and killed themselves. I mean, fuck, it wasn’t like it was her fault those morons committed suicide, right?
So she does some research – a quick Google search and some imagination, if you’re a really good journalist that’s all you need – and gets all incensed. How dare they prosecute those kids, who did nothing – NOTHING – wrong. Especially considering what a bitch their so-called victim – who brought it all on herself, why can’t anyone see it? – was. With her head full of pictures of the Pulitzer prize, and herself on the red carpet, getting the recognition she so richly deserves, she quickly writes an article and makes sure it gets published. With a flutter in her stomach that she hasn’t experienced since she was declared the official fuckbag of the Skankville’s Lawyer’s Association (with 18000 members in a town of 25000), she waits for the adulation to come her way.
But what is this? Are people actually disagreeing with her? How the fuck is that possible?
A couple of days later, having posted an interview with herself on the internet, where she graciously decides to give people one more chance to see the error of their ways and treat her with the respect and awe she deserves, she comes home after a hard day’s work dancing at the Five Cent Pussies skankhole. She pulls her pointy tail out of her asshole and sits down in front of the computer. Smiling she googles her name, and frowns as her name is mentioned on a website full of people she’ll see in hell.
Now what in the fuck is this, she thinks, clicking on the link. While waiting for the site to download, she quickly turns her head to the left and belches. She doesn’t want to melt the monitor, and the molten plastic on either side of the screen remind her of the two times this month she almost wasn’t fast enough.
At first she’s just curious, but her curiosity quickly turns to fury. Who the fuck is this Max the Cat pussy who dares speak of her in such a manner? And all the other fuckers as well… Have these fucking assholes no fucking manners? She crushes the mouse in her claws, then throws it away and takes a new one from the drawer. It’s always good to have an extra supply. Then a plan forms in her mind. She’ll put these fuckers in their place.
First she chooses a name. Then she starts typing: “As a long-time reader, I’ve never commented her before, but I wanted to put it out there that I completely disagree with your stance on Emily’s article.” Yeah, that’s a good start. No, it’s a great one. This will surely put her on the cover of Time Magazine. When she’s done, she clicks the submit-button and leans back, a self-satisfied smile on her face, and runs her tongue over her fangs.
Aah, it’s good to be the queen.
Quickly the first comment arrives. “Erin, I completely agree with you” is what she expects to read, but once she realizes those are not the words on the screen her fury takes over. “You fucking assholes!” she screams, setting fire to not just the monitor but everything on the table. With an angry flick of her tail she quickly puts out the flames, lifts her head towards the ceiling, and screams at one of the few non-flammable surfaces in the room.
Looking at her ruined monitor she realizes she has to go to the CheapShit store to buy a new one. Incensed at the idiots who have no concept of her greatness she forgets to plug in her tail as she leaves her apartment. Upon walking to her car, the neighbor’s little girl points this out to her. Enema Bassholeon thinks, “who is this little shit to tell me what to do?”, rips the little girl’s head off with her claws and eats the arrogant fucking bitch. Licking the still-warm blood off her lips she gets into her Gremlin and drives off, still seething at all the idiots on PYSIH dot com…
Homer u r TFM!!! I gave you a standing ovation a second ago and will do another after i hit Submit!
Thank you, thank you! Though if it hadn’t been for “raptor teeth” my imagination might not have gone into overdrive… :-D
I *heart* Homer.
Erin? Emily?
Whatever. Take your shit elsewhere. If you’re a troll stirring up shit, then go laugh with your loser friends who still have yet to move out of their mom’s basement or had the feel of a woman’s touch, k?
If you really are a long-time reader of PYSIH, then you better give your head a shake and re-think what this web site is about. It is about the VICTIM stupid. And, hey, you have no idea what a victim would feel like, but you will, some day. All things come to those who shit on others. Don’t believe me? What for it. It will come to pass. Even while you are wondering why the shitstorm taking place in your life seems so neverending, it will come to pass.
Let’s examine the “real meaning” behind your words, shall we?
You say:
“As a long-time reader, I’ve never commented her before, but I wanted to put it out there that I completely disagree with your stance on Emily’s article.”
As I say above, if you are a long-time reader, then you had better check out why you come to read the stories here.
Kudos to you for dragging your knuckles up to the keyboard and typing out a response. As we know, it is a free country and you are certainly entitled to your pinheaded opinion. I’m certain Max will take your opposition under advisement.
You say:
“I’ve been on the receiving end of bullying, and I’ve also done some myself. Maybe it’s a cop out, but I honestly think it’s as simple as being a teenage girl.”
Yes, it is a cop out, no “maybe” about it, and you Erin, you have never *ever* been on the receiving end of bullying — certainly not the kind I could dish out to you and certainly not the kind that Phoebe was given. No way in hell have you had this experience bitch. No way in hell. Statement of fact.
Furthermore, people who are victims of bullying DO NOT in turn bully others, K? They don’t. It’s as simple as knowing shit from shinola. And you don’t.
Being a teenage girl is not simple. It isn’t simple being a teenaged boy or girl. So, at the mighty ancient wise age of 21 you think you’ve reached some “adult” sensibilities? Guess again shit-for-brains, you haven’t.
You say:
“Perhaps it’s unfair to put blame on the victim,” and I have to say
STOP RIGHT THERE!!!
Are you fucking shitting me? “Perhaps”????? Are you so morally underdeveloped or so bankrupt of principles that you have to say “Perhaps” it is unfair to put blame on the victim? Perhaps if your mother hadn’t done serious drugs when she was pregnant with you, you might have had a brain.
Perhaps if you had thought about it, then you would realize that most civilized human beings do not blame the victim in any situation.
Not only is such primitive thinking wrong, it is glaringly obvious that you don’t retain the finer feelings and emotions normally associated with homo sapiens sapiens (aka thinking man).
So we now know what kind of person you are with just that little bit of leakage in your comment. The rest of your tirade will be judged accordingly.
You say:
“Perhaps…….particularly in a society where suicide is such a delicate issue,”
Suicide? A delicate issue? I think we know that suicide in this case was the only option that she felt she had. It was, in essence, a legal way to commit murder.
Again, to your statement:
” but you think it’s okay to put all the blame on those other girls? To prosecute them? Without once considering that maybe they were not the sole catalyst in Phoebe’s problems?”
To begin with, there are girls and boys being held responsible here. Both genders. However, I see that it’s probably ok in your view to be unequal when dealing out punishment, right?
The sole catalyst for Phoebe’s problems WAS THIS GROUP OF SHITBAGS. No problem here for those who use evidence to back up their logic. She was harassed: physically, psychologically, emotionally, sexually — IN essence, she was harassed 24/7, and she had no one to turn to and no way out.
Some day, perhaps soon, you and the type of people who share your genetic mistakes, will see that there are times when you really don’t know what the fuck you’re talking about and that gee, why don’t others understand how bad your world is and why isn’t anyone coming to help you out?
You say:
“I’m not proud of the things I’ve said and done, and I still smart when I think of some of the things that were said and done to me,”
You’re full of shit. I know you’ve done the typical thing and said to yourself, well, I’ve only given back what shit was given me. You are no doubt as bad as these girls and guys, but you never got called to account for your miserable behaviour. Like most self-centered psychos in training, I’ll bet you still “smart” over the audacity of some of those lesser humans who dared to make any comment or remark against you, right? Don’t worry, little psycho, your time is coming.
You say:
“but, as an adult, I’ve grown past it”
Nope. You haven’t. Your still holding on to the few times that someone had the nerve to put you in your place. Again, get used to the feeling cause with a mindset like yours, you are going to attract ass-kickers galore.
You say:
“and I imagine every girl involved has as well. What if one of the girls I regularly quarreled with had been suicidal, due in large part to influences on her life that had nothing to do with me?”
Guess what? If someone you quarreled with killed themselves, then it wouldn’t be over a quarrel, now would it? We’re not talking about a quarrel here so don’t be so obvious when you try to avoid the facts in your lame attempt to link yourself with the bullies and not the bullied.
And really, that’s what your comment comes down to. At the end of the day, you associate yourself with the victors and not the losers, right? That’s what your little comment is for. Well here’s a surprise junior. I’d rather know Phoebe than someone like you any day of the week.
The sheer fact that you align yourself with these sleazy six shitbags speaks volumes about your inner core — it is thoroughly rotten and stupendously stupid.
You are also aware that Phoebe did not get the chance to return the “favourable” treatment to these girls and yet you state:
” I might have been prosecuted for murder? And turned into a monster in the media? All for doing something she was doing to me, something almost every young girl does??”
Again, you are twisting situations and facts to fit your attempt to link yourself with these assholes. So be it. You’ve done a good job. I think of you in terms of these six shitheads. Consider yourself successful at painting yourself in their light.
And since you are so wise at 21, I don’t need to tell you that I have never engaged in the type of behaviour you admit to and the type that these six have done — please, to anyone reading this, do NOT take these words to heart as this criminal behaviour is NOT “something almost every young girl does”
You say:
“I’m not saying Phoebe is solely to blame”
BUT you might as well say it. We know what is spoken but not said between the lines. We really aren’t as stupid as you think, you know.
You say:
“but think before you condemn the other girls, or Emily Bazelon.”
And kudos to you for recognizing a mob, a throng of psychologically deranged people coming together here in the hopes of condemning guilty parties and sending them to hell without fully understanding the consequences of their actions.
BWAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!
Did you really think anyone would jump in and say, yeah, Erin’s right?
I could be very eloquent and nice like Jason or even humourous and non-threatening like Homer, but I’m neither.
For people like you, I know what awaits you.
Run, hide, disguise yourself, but the universal laws will find you.
And it is always the same when people like you get what’s coming to them. Surprise, anger, shock, dismay — but perhaps the sweetest reaction of all is the total lack of comprehension on your part — the “Why is this happening to me?” will be the coup de grace.
Enjoy yourself while you can. Time gets shorter as we speed along to the end, and retribution comes faster all the time.
Excellent points, Budgiegirl, all of them extremly well put. You had the patience I lacked to really break down Erin/Emily/Enema’s drivel and totally rip that little piece of shit troll apart. Well done!
And to steal an idea from E, I just gave you a standing ovation and as soon as I’ve pressed submit, I’ll give you another one. :-)
Thank you for the standing ovation. ;-)
I really love breaking down the nonsense, line by line, and skewering it to reveal what is really being said. I must admit that the posts everyone had already written had me inspired. I am going to need a new keyboard if I keep hammering the keys when I vent.
:-D
“Erin? Emily?” I believe they are one in the same. How did I miss that one. It’s so obvious.
On the main article, there’s been a double post by someone claiming to be “A Voice of Reason?” Yahoo ID Jenny Jets, I simply assume it’s some intern plugging in one more of Emily’s feeder posts, that tries to make sure the last comment on this article that anyone would see first, if they googled the site, would be some feel good lead in piece showing some softer side of Emily’s work to free the wicked.
It feels so scripted, yet if given time, will simply work.
Someone will fall to the way side, and it might just end up top page rank.
This must be an act of desperation because Bazelon is getting brutally hammered for it.
Know who I bullied? I bullied the bullies. Whenever I saw some jerk picking on someone weaker than they were, or starting shit with someone for no reason, I went smart ass on them. I was bullied by these jerks myself, but I would have gone off on them whether I was or not because I can’t stand to see people being mean to other people for no reason. So what if someone is not considered as attractive as they “should be?” So what if they are short or fat or have coke bottle glasses or acne? I never picked on the “imperfect” people. I went after the jerks that did. Which meant I got my ass kicked a few times–one jock threw me down a flight of stairs because I pissed him off so much. I didn’t care. I was glad I got under his skin because I was sick of him picking on people who had never done him any harm.
You seem like you’re justifying your own nasty behavior in the past. It isn’t “just being a teenage girl,” because not all teenage girls like to be mean girls. Some of us were just trying to get along, sometimes against very difficult odds.
WOW! What a weird coincidence. Most of the people who agree with Emily Blazelon were former bullies themselves. Now here’s where it really gets weird: those same people also claim to have been the victim of bullying. I personally believe the former is likely to be the truth.
Erin, if you tormented someone day after day until they finally committed suicide to escape you, then yes, you would be a murderer. You would deserve to have your life ruined, to have everyone see you as a monster, because that is what you would be. I have no pity for the South Hadley Six. Let them burn.
Erin, I am astonished. “Instead of being happy and healthy at 21, and in a position where I can see the girls I used to hate and hug them, ask how they’re doing, put all of that behind me,” . . . You are entitled to your opinion, do as you please with your life, but I cannot fathom behaving so “nicely” to bullies. I use the word “nicely” because it’s become such a flabby, spiritless word, and you sound like a flabby, spiritless person, terrified of ever passing judgment or saying something that might sometime somehow offend someone.
Of course, It’s a-ok to pass judgment on Phoebe Prince, isn’t it? I guess the rule for people like you and the Bazelon, are, never pass judgment on anyone still living becuz it might hurt der pwecious ootsy-bootsy widdle feelins. But because you’re (I imagine) seething with rage inside — after all, maintaining such high standards of behavior, and such niceness, is incredibly unrealistic and fatiguing — you’ve gotta lash out, and so you turn on someone who can’t respond in any way.
I was bullied in school, nowhere near to the degree that Phoebe was, and only for a very short time; I was lucky. If I’m ever lucky enough to encounter those ‘bags again, there will be no hugging, no kisskiss, none of that phony shit you’re so obviously proud of. I’ll make sure they know exactlywhat I think of them, and if they get mad and want to mix it up, I’ll be delighted to oblige. I was afraid of them as a kid but not now.
Go ahead, tell me how hateful and unforgiving I am and how you’re a better person than me. Go ahead, please.
Aah, thanks for reminding me, E, that was another thing I intended to comment on earlier to Erin but forgot – the whole “How are you!?!? huggsy huggsy kissy kissy aren’t we all the BEST of FRIENDS and everybody is so happy and well-adjusted” thing.
Again, the words and phrases she uses scream BULLY!!!! Because that’s another behavioral pattern bullies have in common – when they later in life see or meet their former victims, they have an expectation of being treated as friends (probably because in their eyes, they’ve never done anything wrong). And they convince themselves that the smiles and greetings that they receive are genuine. Also, let’s not forget how much easier it always is for bullies to put everything behind them. (Erin, you feeling the barbs already?)
And Erin, if you’re reading this, here’s another little nugget for you – like most (if not all) victims of bullying, I will never – and I do mean NEVER – forgive those assholes who bullied me. So next time you see the girls you used to hate (another choice of words that reveal your true nature, had you been bullied you would never have called them girls, but bitches or something in that vein), I dare you to look beyond the smiles. I would not be at all surprised if you notice something missing from the eyes.
Hate is a very powerful emotion. And one that is very hard to hide. Sometimes fear helps keep the smile in place. But if I were you, Erin, it’s a smile I wouldn’t trust.
And E, there’s not a snowflake’s chance in hell Erin’s a better person than you. No. Fucking. Way.
Homer. . . I think you an I are gonna get along just fine. :)
Max, been meaning to say, I love the baby photo you included of Phoebe Prince. It’s heartbreaking, but what a little doll-face she was. How I hope her family is doing okay.
Did you like that – so did I E. I was hoping it would show that she was a real person, not just the victim we’ve all come to know.
:-) It did.
Emily Bazelon……
1. Is mentally still in high school (or junior high school) and is jockying to be popular with the “in” crowd. If she were a teacher, I don’t think too many kids would be hot for her, she just is not that good looking.
2. Has decided to write something that would give her that 15 minutes of fame that Andy Warhol says everyone gets…… How many of us ever heard of her before this? No me for sure. This bitch built herself an ivory tower using Phoebe Prince’s head stone as a foundation.
3. Would not have attcked Phoebe if she were badly injured in a hospital, because Phoebe could fight back – Emily is a journalistic bully and coward…….
Part of the problem, as I see it, the rlationships at the high school level are way too serious and with the raging hormones, both the boys and the girls are acting like neaderthals owning each other… While such happened when I was in school, it just did not seem as wide spread as it is today.
Also, to me, Emily would be the type to toss rocks at my nieghbors’ fence and if a rock overshot the fence and broke one of my car windows, Emily would blame me for having windows madeof glass…
Phoebe was delicate and Emily and these kids smelled fear and went on a feeding frenzy……..
Emily will be very popular in hell as she will tell the murders and pediophiles that they do not deserve to be there and that it was “those poeple who you gave what was coming to them on Earth” that put you here….. God would not have put a pediophie in hell…. it was the child that bullied God into doing such…. God loves everybody….. it was those who can not forgive that put you here…….
Emily – build your ivory Tower upon Pheobe’s grave stone now, because your soul is going to be the fuel for Pheobe’s campfire….
The story of Phoebe Prince reminds me of my first day selling Jewelry at the Holyoke Mall – 1 town from South Hadley.
One of my first customers was in a group, in tears, asking her friends “who’ll go out with me?” with my boss by my side, I remained quiet and professional, while a voice inside me was screaming “ME”.
I left the mall that night and I will NEVER forget what I saw. I saw her lying on the sidewalk, ambulance at the curb, “freinds” all around. I do not know what she did – pills or jumped from the parking garage above……
If I had opened my mouth, what difference would I have made?
What difference in my life would she have made?
Fred, that is a sad thing that happened. I often feel remorse for not telling someone they meant something to me before it’s too late. I think we all live with remorse of this nature. But we’re still a cut above those who mercilessly bully someone to try and make their small selves seem big. If you have to bring someone else down to make yourself seem big, then you’re the smallest of them all.
It’s good to know that there are still people in this world with sensitivity in their soul. But do try to forgive yourself a little. What happened to that girl wasn’t your fault. It was something that had been hurting her for a long time. I say this as someone who has a past history of self-harming behavior.
I dunno, I forgive the people who bullied me, though they tried to drive me out of high school. And I forgive the people who abused me (most of them). I won’t ever forget, but those people have shitty little internal lives. They’re not worth my hate or the energy it would take to hold on to the wrongs.
The scars – physical and mental, remain, but the hate is long gone. I owe them nothing, and would not kiss-kiss-hello with them simply because they’ve earned none of my positive energy. The hatred is gone not because they don’t deserve it, but because negative energy like that costs me to sustain, and they don’t get to have any of that, either.
Erin, tormenting other girls isn’t normal. some amount of teasing and sarcasm and snideness might be on a day to day basis as part of being human, but actively trying to make another human being is not normal.
When you commit a crime against someone with a medical issue that would cause that crime to have greater effects, that crime is worsened, not mitigated. You know someone has a fragile heart and you jump out of a closet and scare them, you will face heftier charges. I discovered this sort of first hand a couple months ago; I was assaulted in my home by a man who was a stranger to me, but who had apparently been following me. Because he had reason to know I am disabled, he was charged with felony sexual assault instead of misdemeanor sexual assault for the happily uncompleted rape. (I am grateful every day that my partner was nearby and his waking up ended the assault.)
Someone’s vulnerability isn’t a mitigating circumstance, it’s a aggravating factor in determining the exact nature of a crime and the proper punishment.
I think that’s the key here. I forgive, but I never forget. Forgetting applies complacency and acceptance that these actions will forever be forgiven. I can forgive little things. I can even forgive big things, but this is murder. This is that unforgivable step. They chose to murder in a way they assumed they’d get away with it. That’s like going over to the house of the guy who robbed you, and shooting him in the head. It’s the difference between self-defense and planned murder.
What I find unforgivable here is the utter lack of remorse for what they’ve done and are continuing to do, and the lack of real empathy for both Phoebe and for Phoebe’s grief-stricken family.
And, let’s not forget the “ACCOMPLISHED.” That clinches the entire thing for me.
Exactly! Inhuman.
Also, I saw that Kayla Narey posted on her FB that “It was her own fault.”
Charming, hey?
First of all, what these six shitbags – seven if you count Ms Bassholeon – did is completely unforgivable. The fact that they don’t seem to think so makes it even more so.
Now that we have that out of the way, a couple of words about forgiving. It took me some years, but I finally got to that crossing, and I chose to go down the road of forgiveness. To put it simply, I was just so tired of hating. It does drain you, and in the end, by feeding the hate the only ones you really hurt are those closest to you. And, of course, yourself. It will probably come as no surprise to those who’ve been there, but it was the best decision I’ve made in a long, long time, and made the fight getting there worth it.
However, having travelled down that road a while now, I’ve come to realize that I misread the sign. It wasn’t the road of forgiveness that I chose, but the road of acceptance. I have accepted what has happened, and by extension myself. But when I look inside myself, all that hate and resentment are still there. I will never forget, and therefore those emotions will never leave me. They no longer have the same hold on me that they used to, but they are a part of who I am. Or rather, who I became.
It’s an easy enough mistake to make, acceptance being such a close relative of forgiveness, but you know what? I don’t mind. And the more I think about it, the more I realize that I have no obligation to forgive. Not in this case, anyway, simply because it cuts too close to the heart.
If one of my former bullies were to come up to me and ask for my forgiveness, I would be very surprised. But if they did, I’d ask them if they were religious, and if the answer was yes, tell them they can ask for forgiveness from whatever god they believe in. If the answer was no, I’d tell them tough shit, because whatever they’re looking for, they’re not getting it from me.
To me, it depends on what they mean by forgiveness.
if it means I deal with them as if I never knew them before, no history can not be rewritten. Even if this person is “changed” what things about me may leave me open to their ‘old ways”.
Thus if someone stole from me, then they will ALWAYS be a theif. If they really seek forgiveness, then return the stuff stolen or compensate me for my losses. Talk is cheap unless it’s backed up by action……
As far as intangilble losses, such as embarassment and unacceptance, they can never be undone, but with some forgiveness a better future can be had.
I am on the committee for my 25th reunion….. many of the people on the committee were the “cliquers”, the other crowd. Rather than hold any anomosity, I am working with these people now and things are going great. There was one person who definately was not one I’d give a carnation to and a handshake was as friendly as we chose to be…….
Homer, you said it perfectly. Last night I was pondering this, trying to find the right word(s). It’s ACCEPTANCE, and, sometimes, forgiveness. Forgiveness is good for the little stuff, as Fred points out. Most stuff is little stuff, I get mad for awhile and then I forgive. Life’s better that way.
It’s also better when I ACCEPT something terrible that was done; I don’t say “happened,” I mean an action that was done to me deliberately. I accept that it happened, I accept that ingesting mental poison over it is bad for me and my loved ones, and I go on.
Forgiveness to me is a whole other ball of wax, as my grandma used to say. To me, and I may very well be misunderstanding the meaning of the word, but to me forgiveness means “let’s be friends, let’s pretend nothing happened and no harm was done.” And for an action that was terrible, done deliberately, maybe done several times, I just don’t think that’s appropriate.
I think a blanket policy of forgiving no matter what, can be dangerous. Doesn’t the forgiver put themselves at risk, for more offenses/crimes/abuse?
And, I don’t think what these South Hadley Shits did, is forgivable. Like Homer said, if they ask for and receive forgiveness from their god, fine. But I don’t think other humans who are forced to share oxygen with these twats should be expected to forgive, or forget. There were many, many times, when they could have elected to stop torturing Phoebe. They chose to keep it going. Now we can choose to keep it going.
Amen.
I like the way you stated “their god” – lower case and also I understand that the god they worship is not the same God I worship.
To me the god(s) they worship is eachother, their temple is the mall… Many teenagers are quite like that, but these fucktards are acting like a few words, a few tears and life can go on…….
Their lives may be able to go on if they can get people to believe in a god of total and easy forgiveness, rather than the God that demands justice and serious repentance…..
Everybody just loves the Jesus that said “… he with out sin cast the first stone…” BUT how many people know the Jesus that told that woman “.. go and sin no more.”?????
Forgivness is only given to those who will try not to reoffend… Most of us will reoffend, especially on the small stuff……
Also, if I go out to a bar and spend a bit too much – feeling depressed, had a few drinks, got talked into buying a few drinks, lost a few bets….. When I ask God for forgiveness, the money is not suddenly returned to my bank account – I have to live with the fact that I was an idiot.
These fucktards will have to live with the fact that they played a role in a girl’s death – Pheobe can not be brought back and can not be forgotten.
Finding acceptance and peace is an act of beauty in an ugly situation. I don’t think people should ever be pressured to forgive, and unfortunately people are heavily pressured to forgive. I hope my comment wasn’t taken that way.
My finding forgiveness was a very personal thing that had a lot to do with my own spirituality and what I needed from the situation. It bothers me tremendously to see other people pressured by family, by friends, or by complete froggin’ strangers to forgive monstrous acts. You do what you need to do for you to be ok, and if that doesn’t include forgiveness, it doesn’t include that.
And then I saw as I was posting I chose the words “I hope my comment wasn’t taken that way” which is a cop-out way of putting it. What I meant was “I hope I didn’t come across that way” as advocating or pressuring for forgivness. My intent was just to explain that some people, for their own reasons, do forgive their bullies, but that in my case, there’s no forgetting.
And forgiveness doesn’t mean I want to hang out with them, either, to me it just means if I think of them at all, I wish them the best they can find within themselves, and wish them well, and well away from me.
Not at all. Not by me, anyway. I had been thinking over the whole forgiveness issue and when I saw the word “acceptance” my thoughts finally clicked and made sense. And you’re right, there is so much pressure to forgive, forgive. I think saying “no” to it scares some people.
I think you’re right. I think some people are terrified of what they perceive as negative emotions – but anger is a protective healing emotion when it’s healthy and called for.
Jason, I just want to say that I’ve always thought you’d have been a great person to know as you remind me a little of myself. I too have vivid memories going waaaaay back (almost half a century), and I too was abused and used my memory to keep an honest account of what really happened. You are also as I once was when commenting: logical and almost like Mr. Spock (yeah, a Trekkie till I die).
But about the forgive/forget thing. I have been accused of not “forgiving” as I don’t ever forget. To my way of thinking, I’d have to be stupid to “forgive and forget” — human behaviour is best predicted by past behaviour. Forgetting what was once done to me leaves me open to a repeat offender. ;-p
The point you make about forgiving this behaviour is valid and I don’t know why people just don’t get it. True bullying behaviour is mean, nasty and vile. Why do people assume that they can “forgive” this type of behaviour? We aren’t talking about a situation where someone says “You’re fat.” “Well you’re ugly” “Yeah, I can lose weight, but you’re stuck with that face.” — (conversation actually had – LOL)
This behaviour breaches acceptable levels of decency. *sigh* Sign of my age I guess.
Thanks,
I can honestly say that I think the hidden message behind Spock, is that logical thinking can empower us to exceed our limitations, but with it, we main gain opportunities, but lose insight. I disagree with that perception, mainly because when you are in the hole, the horizon is not available to you. /grin
Again, I agree with your concept of forgiveness. I recently watched the Reader, and I think they captured very well at the end to concept of forgiveness and absolution. The survivor at the end could provide nothing in that area, it’s not her job. She had not forgotten what was done, but the memory could be softened by shared sympathetic emotion. If you haven’t seen the movie, I’ve spoiled nothing, and I hope you can watch it, despite the significant nudity, and see the Vulcan contemplating forgiveness in at least six of the characters.
IMHO, “forgive and forget” is very useful for minor trespasses we all commit from time to time (forgetting to put the cap on the toothpaste, spilling something on someone’s shirt, etc).
I don’t know if there is something that is truly unforgivable. This situation, the South Hadley Six, I have no say in the forgivableness of it. It’s up to Phoebe’s family, and should be up to Phoebe, but they erased that possibility of ever happening.
For myself, there’s only really been one person I haven’t forgiven – the uncle who molested me when I was very young. I’m not sure why, but it doesn’t matter – I can forgive myself for having no compassion for him. :P It seems very reasonable to me, and I don’t feel I owe him any sort of soul searching over why he, of all the people who’ve harmed me, I can’t (or won’t) forgive. The parents who abused me, the ex who battered me, raped me, threatened to murder me – I can forgive them, and of course not forget because as you said, it’s just not safe. To my mind, they’re broken people capable of nothing else, it’s a small, horrible, pitiable life they have, and I can have so much more than that.
I have children who love me and whom I adore, I have a partner who really is a true companion and equal, and I have incredible dear friends, and I have the ability to nurture and appreciate all of those things.
It became easy for me to forgive when I realized how little the others would ever really have, and that the power to change that was always only with them. It’s tragic in its way, but it is not my problem anymore.
I was Jewish in a small town, a small school. What I went through there went far beyond snide comments. I forgive them because I figure by now, any of them capable of change have achieved it and are no longer the hatefilled kids they once were, and any not capable of change – well, again, they have shitty little internal lives i wouldn’t wish on anyone.
So maybe it’s that I have some sort of superiority complex. :D I forgive, because even as damaged and disabled as I may be, I am more than they ever will be, and I have more beauty and joy in my life than they could ever appreciate, and that’s really sad for them.
My understanding with the Bible is forgiving is that it has to be two parties have to agree. It is not unconditional as some like to think.
And, there’s that pesky little “Go, and sin no more” part that some so conveniently forget.
That too. I hate it when people misconstrue the Bible.
The Bible also says if your brother trespasses against you and asks your forgiveness, you forgive him, and if he trespasses a hundred times and a hundred times asks your forgiveness, a hundred times you shall forgive him.
When people talk about that part, though, they forget that forgiveness must be sought for that. Presumably it must also be sincere.
But I’m not Christian, and no longer Jewish, and while I’ve read the Bible, I don’t retain as much of it as I’d like. It’s a fascinating bit of history and philosophy and a great look into the psychology of an epoch.
Bazelon is probly hoping that if she sucks up to the Cool Kids, they’ll invite her to play in their treehouse.
You got that right!
As others have said on both posts, I’m rather confident that Bazelon has written this little report because she identifies with the group the kids who bullied Phoebe into suicide. It seems likely that she was one of the ‘cool’ kids in school who gave everyone else a hard time, so she figures that it’s normal to emotionally abuse your peers — she honestly doesn’t seem to understand that the level of cruelty these kids displayed — particularly the way they mocked Phoebe after her death — isn’t fucking normal.
Normal school conflicts don’t involve the constant harassment, extending outside of school bounds, saturating every point of this poor girls life, until the victim is driven to kill herself. Normal bullies don’t laugh and giggle as they mock the kid they drove to suicide at a school dance. Sure, everyone deals with a few assholes in high school, but when kids are essentially stalking someone, so driven to cause pain to a person that they take pleasure in the fact that she killed herself while alone and frightened, what we have is criminal harassment — and you can be damned sure that these brats knew that what they did was wrong. They’re teenagers, not toddlers.
The only possible explanations I can come up for why Bazelon would pull this crap are that: A) She’s desperately trying to sway the public’s attention in favour of the harassers using this sad little narrative (something she should have been intelligent to realize would backfire) or B) She WAS a harasser in school, and looks back on that as typical high school behavior in the same manner that all of us look back upon arguing with your parents over your curfew. In fact, I suspect that it’s probably a little of both.
Either way, Bazelon is coming across as an asshole who thinks it’s okay to pick up where those shithead students left off and continue to bully this girl, who is no longer able to defend herself. Emily Bazelon can rot in hell along with the rest of the sick fucks who have been featured on this site, and then let us know if she thinks that constant torment is just harmless fun and games.
I see Bazelon as a bitter woman who was spoiled silly. I sense these bullies and anyone who supports them are very insecure, territorial, self-righteous, bitter, and filled with self-hatred themselves. Seems like they are all related to each other. Someone who is insecure is often butter, territorial, self-righteous, and self-hatred.
I wonder if they think they are “good” (insert any religion here), but they are not. I sense that with some of these bullies. No offense to any religious people.
I just want to start off by saying that all of you guys have touched my heart with all of your stories and past experiences.
I’ll never forget there was a time when I did pick on a girl in middle school. Not for a long period of time, but I did say some mean thing to hurt her feelings.
Sorry- got cut off
Anyways, I regretted it and felt horribly bad when I finally realized what I was doing. I apologized and told her how sorry I was and it never happened again. From then on I made a promise w myself to never pick on anyone again or say something that could hurt someones feelings. – I’ll never forget when I was called flat chested or tomboy and how much it hurt.
When I got to highschool, I saw a lot of bullying going around. I stopped it whenever I could and made friends with kids that had none. I would do whatever I could to make a person feel better and not feel the pain that I would see in there eyes.
Being a mother of 2, I make sure my kids are always respectfull and kind to others. My heart breaks for bullied kids and I raise my children to feel the same way.
Shame on you bazelon! RIP Phoebe
My heart goes out to her and her family. Oh and if I was around when this was going on in high school, I would have beaten the shit out of those 6 little monsters who put her through this.
Good for y ou. You started off wrong then realized it and made the choice to stop. You should be proud.
You learned your lesson and did the right thing–good for you!
I hate the term “tomboy.” It’s an archaic word used by people who are still too backasswards to realize that girls can be active and athletic and it doesn’t make them “masculine.”
I always got teased about being “flat chested” too. I used to think that I’d get implants once I got old enough. Then I realized that my boobs always got in the way anyhow–what the hell did I need with bigger ones?
Max – you forgot to put a poll for Emily Bazelon at the end of your article ….. ;)
I took the time to read the comments on the website for the article and apart from a few sypathisers most of the comments are similar in tone to what we have here.
A few very good points were made … one of which being that a lot of the private information about Phoebe used in the article could only have come from the defendants or their lawyers. As much as I hate to subscribe to the conspiracy theory I am fairly certain that this was what has been described as a “hit” piece with the intention of trying to discredit Phoebe and provoke sympathy for the 6 … and pass it off as journalism.
As for the fact that she had pre-existing phychological problems … how does that excuse or minimise what they did? If I shoot someone in who is dying of cancer and they die … that’s not murder right? They were gonna die anyway ……
Wonder how Bazelon now feels being hammered for writing this garbage? It seems to only make South Hadley look worse and worse. They are no different from Aruba with Natalee Holloway.
If Ms. Blazelon wants to go that route, well, then couldn’t we justify all murders just the same? At some point we all die. So if we’re murdered, who cares? It just happened a little quicker than it would have right? No harm, no foul.
Emily Blazelon is a hack. She wouldn;t know good journalism if it fell out from between her legs. Whatever happened to impartial writing? Presenting facts that could actually be proven, not hearsay?
God help this woman if I was ever face to face with her. She’d be eating a mouthful of sidewalk, and trying to remove my size 6 stiletto from her ass.
Man, that’s already the second thing I’d pay to see here (vcbecky’s “little display of affection” earlier was the first)… :-D
She must be a defense lawyer.
Go figure.
I just wonder if Erin and la Bazelon aren’t the same asshat. It does make sense. I’ve re read her post a couple times. It doesn’t feel . . . right. *Polished, slick writing. *Refers to perps as “girls.” *Says she “smarts” — considerable understatement, that. **”Something almost every young girl does” — an incorrect statement, and an odd, rationalizing generalization.
If she’s not understating, she’s generalizing. There’s not a lot of feeling behind her words. Kinda what you’d expect from . . . someone like Barge-ass-a-lon.
*When she talks about unfairly blaming the victim, and suicide a delicate issue, and how she’s not proud, she sounds like she’s tossing a bone to people she anticipates will disagree. Again, doesn’t sound like she means it, or just not very much. The whole thing is way too smooth.
None of these things mean anything taken one by one; hell, maybe they mean nothing taken all together. I dunno. But I would not be surprised if we learned ol’ Emily had been slumming here at PYSIH.
I almost forgot another observation. Erin throws out her age as 21. Why bring age into it? It’s unnecessary, unless it’s Emily and she thinks it will convince people that her experiences are recent, yet she can still be high minded. Also, she may be trying to enlist sympathy from readers who aren’t much older than the S. Hadley bullies. Also, I imagine ol’ Emily would sell her grandmother if it meant she could be 21 again.
My point exactly. Not to mention that everyone else here has used Emily Bazelon’s full name or her surname. No-one else is on a first-name basis. And after her post, “Erin” has been conspicuous by her absence…
Kinda makes you wonder, doesn’t it?
I used her first name, mainly because I’m typing mostly one handed due to an injury(not because of something vulgar), and saying her first name is easier to do with the right hand, than Bazelon, which crosses the board too much.
I get what you’re saying. Erin may in fact be someone who knows emily well or someone on her staff or a colleague. I think the person “Innocent until proven Guilty” on Slate’s site is definitely a plant or a family member. The word density seems like it’s me doing an SEO job to raise page ranking for one of these stories. I put all sorts of special strings together and then submit the page with those as the tagline. Helps raise Spider count and page rank on those search terms.
In your case it’s fully acceptable, and I wish you a speedy recovery.
Nah, I’d bet it’s an intern at best, but I agree with the conspiracy angle, only from a different bend.
Defense Attorney: “We’re in trouble, but I think we need to call in a pro to do some PR work for us, and let us put an article out that we can submit as evidence during the trial. Maybe even do some SEO to make this the first link when a prospective juror googles it.”
Family of Accused: “What do we do?”
Def. Att.: ” An old college buddy of mine wrote an essay about doing just this sort of thing and serves on the Yale Journalism board and a liberal news service. I bet we could hire her for about 300 to 400 an hour, thirty hours tops. 10 Grand may seem like a lot, but in the end, we may get two or three of these to really pin it down, so expect to spend as much as 50 Grand on publicity moves like this.”
FoA: “We’ll do anything to get out little sprogs off the hook”
Def. Att: “I’ll call Emily, she’s got a few interns, they may cost extra.”
I’ve done custom work for law offices before. Databases for clipping services and programs to determine relationships and conflict of interests across large doc resources. I even did a special login service, that I later found out was so married men could login to inconspicuous men’s news sites and get email from their divorce lawyer and plan and plot divorces on the side. I’ve done a lot of programming work I’m not proud of, but this stuff comes up. This screams a hit job and one Emily was either paid for or is doing to cut her chops and show she can do this professionally and assist in shaping a jury pool. This is only opinion of course, but her opinion doesn’t even really mesh with her typical defenses. Her article style yes, but protecting a group from their alternative murder pact? That’s the sort of thing you sell your soul for.
Ah Jason! Thanks for the laugh!!
Anything to get “our little sprogs off the hook!”
ROTFLMAO!!
Just another case of someone sticking their nose in something trying to get themselves attention at someone else’s expense.
Wait till the good folks at the Mental Health Advocacy groups get hold of this. I guess it is okay for these vermin to torture a DISABLED child of 15. These scum knew Phoebe had problems which makes their actions even more criminal. Emily, one of the mutants wrote ACCOMPLISHED on FB. Explain that to us please. We are waiting. Phoebe could be anyone’s child. Those evil souless creatures yormented Phoebe to her death. Emily, were you a bully in school? Seems like it. Your article was the worst piece of pseudojournalism I have ever had the misfortune to lay my eyes on. Disclosing private medical information is beyound disgusting. Go ahead and defend these scum. People are angry and rightfully so.
What if Phoebe were your child?
It is illegal to disclose a deceased person’s info without the consent of the family or person with power of attorney.
Forgiveness must come from a greater being than myself.
For those six of South Hades, may the world never forget.
Phoebe’s father speaks out.
http://news.bostonherald.com/news/regional/view/20100730phoebe_princes_dad_seeks_apology_from_south_hadley_teens/
Don’t think these scumbags will ever apologize. They deserve what comes at them. They deserve as much hate as Osama bin Laden, Hugo Chavez, and Fred Phelps gets.
I’ve been quietly watching this unfold as well.
http://news.bostonherald.com/news/regional/view/20100723phoebe_princes_past_troubles_could_haunt_defense_ex-prosecutor_blasts_leak/
I feel that if Emily did receive any form of payment for her services, it will come out, and it will be catastrophic for Slate.
Fuck, I hope she did and that she’s as good at covering her tracks as she is at being a journalist… Hehe…
I’ve suspected that ever since Ms. Bazelon’s article came out, but I couldn’t include any accusations in my editorial without some kind of proof. That would have made me no better that her. I did hint at it when I called Bazelon’s article one of the best opening arguments I’d ever heard.
If it turns out she has a check stub from this, she deserves a place here for Greed. Not as bad as the Hadley 6, but comparable to some others in the Greed column.
Wow. Just WOW. As soon as I saw “may backfire,” I was praying with all my heart to Almighty Dog: “may it backfire, may it backfire!” That would be too perfect. And I loved Murphy’s comment: “This is all tied to some sick defense strategy that’s beyond despicable.”
Slate Magazine, huh? Could the prosecution subpoena evidence that she was paid?
She thought she was SO slick. I hope all she gets out of this are giant bite marks on her ass.
““The existence of a victim’s disability under many statutory schemes . . . serves to aggravate the offense rather than to mitigate it,” she said in a statement.”
Heh. I do believe many of us here mentioned this. I do hope Erin pops back in and reads that article. Thank you for linking it, Yorktown!
Just to let you know…..
If you google just her name (emily bazelon), then this article pops up mid-way on page 3 of results.
If you google her name and “bullying” then this article is near the top of page 2 of results.
Tee hee. Can’t wait to haunt her every step.
And from the results that *do* show up, she’s been a media whore from waaaay back.
Who knew?
:->
This article’s page rank keeps a changin’ I just love how those wind’s all blow. This article keeps on changin’, how can the SEO know?
I wonder where it’s going, I guess we’ll wait and see,
but ever wonder how Michael Gagnon, made it all the way from page three?
(It’s at the bottom of page 1 for Emily Bazelon Bullying as of this morning at 8:06 AM EST, give it just a little more time, and it may just reach to just under the Wikipedia article, once a bit of movement starts on the Emily Bazelon(harder and slower to move because of certain inertial forces)
As a newbie to creating my own blog, I have only recently caught on to what I read in posts regarding SEOs and the like.
I just *knew* if there was a way of using the internet to bite Emily’s fat ass that you would know it and explain it in terms I’d be able to get!
And she so doesn’t get how fluid the internet is — she may have “won” on the day her story was released, but methinks the tide has turned.
:-D
Oh, and admin or Max will have to check this link out first, but here’s another person who is ticked off at Emily’s treatise.
http://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2010/07/22/emily-bazelon-as-if-to-prove-my-point/
The comments are a hoot as well.
The problem with slinging shit at people is that you’re bound to get some on yourself…….
Holy Hannah, did you see the comment listing other criminal behavior by the defendants?
#7 – Sean Mulveyhill was arrested for shoplifting Oct.22, 2009, in Holyoke, MA:
HOLYOKE POLICE DEPARTMENT
Public Daily Arrests Report – 10/23/2009 Page 9 of 23
Arrestee: MULVEYHILL, SEAN L
Age: 17
Time of Arrest: 2:53 PM
Address: 107 LYMAN SOUTH HADLEY , MA
Arrest Location: 50 HOLYOKE ST
W/M
Charge Ch. 266 Sect. 30A SHOPLIFTING BY CONCEALING MDSE
ALSO:
Re: 7946. 2 South Hadley football players……arrested – shoplifting at the mall. One current player, one former player – and brothers
Including other stalking behavior by the girls? Can any of this be confirmed? And if so, the comment writer is spot on pointing out the extreme bias of (possibly illegally) releasing Phoebe’s medical history and not the criminal history of the accused.
I posted a link about deceased people and HIPAA and it is illegal. Bazelon likely broke HIPPA laws.
I hope to God the Feds prosecute her ass.
To those who said Phoebe was weak to have killed herself because of the bullying, there is a sad case in Virginia where a 16 year old boy committed suicide due to the bullying he was subjected to and after his mother complained to the school and to the sheriff.
Christian Taylor hanged himself in June of 2010 due to bullying.
http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-news/5982347-christian-taylors-mom-of-virginia-blames-her-sons-suicide-on-bullying
So I guess it’s not just Phoebe who could not cope — it’s anyone who’s a target. This behaviour is unacceptable and it’s time decent people stood up and kicked the asses of those who would demean the human soul with their actions.
Budgiegirl, I couldn’t agree more. Bullying is a destructive mode of behavior that in no way should be accepted. And to those who think the damage is limited to the period in your life that you’re bullied and who motivate their acceptance by saying that school doesn’t last forever, here’s a little newsflash – the effects of bullying follow you throughout your life. And it’s not just in schools that people get bullied. A bully in school will in all likelihood be a bully at work, a bully at the old-folks home, and a bully when he/she is lying six feet under in a box at the cemetery simply because he/she thinks this is the right way for him/her to behave. Some people never grow up, and therefore never learn.
Bullies become child molesters, rapists, serial killers, terrorists, and dictators. Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold, Charles Manson, Osama bin Laden, Adolf Hitler, and Joseph Stalin started as bullies and guess what they turned out, evil.
I wonder how this Emily character sleeps at night.
Probably hanging upside down from the ceiling. ;-)
XD
Shall we spread out newspaper to catch her guano, or just let her live in her own waste?
Hmm, that’s a tough one. On the one hand, I wouldn’t want to waste high quality newspaper on her (even the National Enquirer is waaaaay too classy in this case), but on the other, I have this nagging feeling that she enjoys rolling around in her guano, so… How about coating her roof with vaseline and her floor with barbed wire? She’s probably too stupid to notice until it’s too late… :-D
OMG!! *Psychic!* After I did that post, I thought, Nah, this chick would probbly be happy to live in her own waste, she must like ugly, dirty, and smelly coz she’s speaking up for the South Hadley Shits. “Great minds . . . ” !!!
Well, I did have a *feeling* you were one of the good guys… :-D !!!
Emily Bazelon is a poor excuse for a lawyer and for a human being. What a worthless piece of maggot bait.
To the Bazelon bitch:
Rot in hell, you stupid parasite! You don’t know shit! What goes around comes around and you’ll will get what’s coming to you in spades! Enjoy life as an unemployed hack because that’s all you’ll ever be.
If you want to stick the “Middle Finger” at “Emily Bitchleton”,the best way to do it is to get “Anti-Bullying” legislation passed in this “Voters Are Pissed Off” election year, put some “Teeth” in enforcement of these policies. Another means to give the “Middle Finger” to “Ms. Bitchleton” is for a jury to find the “South Hadley 6″ guilty on all counts,and for the judge to literally “THROW THE BOOK AT “EM”,and give all of them the harshest sentence possible!! Those two events will definately be a “Slap In The Face” to that “BITCH”!! If “Emily Bitchleton” sypathizes with the “South Hadley 6″ so much,she can visit them in prison,and while she’s at it,she can bake them a “Cake With A File In It”!!
I hope I didn’t offend anyone on this site with my comments regarding that Bazelon bitch. It’s just that I find her absolutely disgusting! Shamelessly making a fast buck off somebody’s tragedy.
I hope the Prince family sues the hell out of her!
Heavens, no! Whatever gave you the idea anyone here was offended? I can’t speak for anyone else, obviously, but I’m guessing that you’re A-OK, dearie. Perfectly A-OK.
I personally want Emily to address the accusations and explain why she’d write such a piss poor and transparently one-sided attach on a victim in favor of the defense. I think public outrage and raw emotional questions of her character, attitude and integrity are the sort of challenges she’s risen to in the past and should be risen to again.
I’m not afraid of her responses and I applaud yours only in as much as the next step will be if she deigns to answer the charges made against her.
Is she catching some hell? I’ve googled her name a few times in “news” but every article I looked at either applauded her or was non committal. However I haven’t looked in any blogs yet.
Click through the link above and view the comments of Mary Fields Judge. She, completely independent of me, has been posting links to every criticism of Emily Bazelon on the web. She even asked me in the comment to post my Editorial(a turn of words I was using to describe my commentary). I don’t have an editorial, and this one is very close and probably better than I’d write, but I am considering something to add more directly to the fire. As it stands, my primary interest in this has been to work on the page rank of the pages involved and focus on the terms I can best stress and move. I think the goal of Emily’s article was the SEO a verdict favorable to the defense. I read somewhere that many jurors have been poled to discover that they don’t mind googling, against a judge’s request, to help them determine a case. I think the Defense’s goal with their release to Emily was to give something favorable in that event. I think, hell I know that would be criminal if that was their intent, so instead, my goal is to bring this disagreement to a head. I’m not affiliated directly with this site’s daily conduct, I’m not a moderator or former moderator. My actions are my own and my comments are my own. No one paid me to do this. I simply feel that this is an expression of my free speech, and see this as reasonable under the United case of late. If money is power, knowledge of the way a search engine work is most certainly both money and knowledge.
You rock.
Is that the link to the “yes means yes” blog?
How’s your neck by the way?
I may or may not have a ruptured disk between C5 and C6(there are other issues, but this one causes the most “discomfort”). If it’s not ruptured, it’s severely protruding to the left, and several episodes of “fire-arm” have ensued. I go Wednesday to have a needle of various medicines wrapped around the exposed nerve, via X-Ray guided needle. I’ve been told to expect miracle levels of pain relief for 30 days, following the procedure, but I will remain in a cervical collar for many weeks to come.
Due to an accident caused by a stroke in 2005, I have damage to my spine (S1-S4, L1-L5) and a helluva case of sciatica. It’s crazy, but they told me that they thought I’d been in a car accident — my spine “retracted” and I “lost” 5 cm of length in my right leg.
My point is that if your pain gets too much, fentanyl pain patches are a way of controlling the pain without making for problems that usually accompany pain killers. Of course, I didn’t find out about the patches until I had heart problems and had to get an ambulance ride to the local Emergency Room — I spent four months not moving from bed, screaming like a lunatic if I did move, expecting that sooner or later I’d be able to just get up and walk. Talk about denial — it ain’t just a river in Egypt. ;-p
Totally off topic, but yes, I have 12.5 mcg Fentanyl patches right now, but they don’t seem to answer for the episodes, just deal with the day in and out stuff. We’re concerned about larger doses, because I do not work well with opiates and this most deliciously is an opiate patch. This injection is supposed to be the trick for thirty days at a time and has as a goal, an intermediary between waiting to see what the other protrusions turn out to be and just putting in a bar over the next 90 days.
We’ll see, but for now, I can work most days and can type with both hands again. (My typos are improving a bit)
Yes, off-topic but I think of you as a “secret weapon” as you get my brain clicking along and thinking about how the internet can fulfill some of the helpless void of “I wanna do SOMETHING” — so your well-being is kind of “on-topic” but only for me. :-D
When I was being ruled by pain, it was awful. I couldn’t think straight and formulating rational thought was impossible. I hate the thought of anyone being in pain — emotional, psychological or physical.
Wait. Lemme qualify that. People who don’t deserve to be in pain (like you). There are lots on this site that DO deserve pain – like Emily and the Hades 6 — and I’m thinking financial pain would be the most lasting kind to make an impact on them.
So may you quickly transverse the road to healthy healing.
God no Kelly. I wrote the editorial that started this thread, so you know I agree with you, and if I had to guess, I’d say 98% of the comments that followed were against Emily Bazelon’s article a pro-Phoebe Prince. Besides, what you wrote was mild compared to the things I said about her to my wife, before I wrote my editorial. I think I invented a couple of new ways to be deviant with farm animals during that rant.
Even if you were posting in support of Bazelon, as long as you stayed civil and on topic, most of us would let you have your say and debate you in a civilized manner.
Problem with people who support Bazelon or any of the bullies, they are uncivil and engage in victim blaming.
I don’t think anyone has a problem with your remarks, I know I don’t.
I also want the family to sue them into oblivion. The only true punishment some people seem to understand is the kind that kicks them in the wallet.
No need to apologize. These bullies are no different from the 9/11 Terrorists, Manson Family, or Columbine Killers.
Some odd stuff I’ve found (maybe others have already found and commented, if so my apologies for repeating):
“If you haven’t read Emily Bazelon’s fantastic, deeply reported investigation into the suicide of Phoebe Prince, click here to read the three-part series.” Doublex.com posted July 21.
“Maybe by considering the complexities of bullying cases like the tragic case thoughtfully reported in Slate.com, we’ll be able to address bullying and cyberbullying more intelligently and with an eye to healing not punishment.” Netfamilynews.org. Posted July 22.
“Now, in a rigorously reported piece on Slate.com, Emily Bazelon writes . . . ” Blog.washingtonpost.com (I couldn’t get the whole sentence; it was in a blog.) Posted July 22.
Does anyone else notice anything odd, that these three quotations have in common?
Hint: Think “poor choice of words.”
I read the first excerpt much earlier today. I laughed at the hyperbole (“fantastic”??) and probably would have forgotten it, except the words “deeply reported” stuck in my brain like a tick, sucking at my mind. I kept asking myself, “What the hell is a deeply reported investigation? What does that frickin MEAN??”
Later I came across the other excerpts. The words “rigorously reported” and “thoughtfully reported” jumped out at me. They all sounded like they’d come from the mind, if you’ll excuse the expression, of the same, not very competent, writer.
An article about a case can be “thoughtful.” A reporter writing about a case can conduct rigorous reporting or questioning. I think the authors (author?) were trying to express ideas like this, but instead they went with a case that was thoughtfully reported, etc. etc. etc.
The above in my opinion are pieces of sloppy writing showing clumsy use of words. As a former tech editor I notice crap like this. I also notice similarites in types of mistakes. We all make them, unless a good copy editor is riding our ass. Of course, someone like Bazelon or a Bazelon minion would scornfully refuse to use one.
I’m just wonderin who’s behind this, who they are, and who’s payin em.
“I’m just wonderin who’s behind this, who they are, and who’s payin em.”
The SEO is bush league and obvious, so it screams a PR firm, with employees, not real techies doing this. The words are “ridiculous and unique combinations” of words that use poetics to stress concepts that don’t exist. “Deeply reported” is a good one. A PR firm focuses on spin to make the comment rise to the surface and then employs people who don’t know they’re carrying the lie, to reinforce the lie. A techie would just find a weakness in the way the story was presented and use it to stress that uniqueness into page-heavy content flow. I swear it’s like they’ve got some college kids or recent grads pushing these words around for them though. There’s something amateurish about this, like a home cook using the cookbook from a master.
I’m glad that to hear that I haven’t offended any of you good people on this board. If Emily Bazelton is offended, too bad! Did anybody hear of a guy named Danny Bloom? Allegedly, he’s claiming that he supplied that parasite and the defense attorneys with personal information regarding Phoebe’s mental health. He even brags about it! Go to people.com and type in Phoebe Prince and read the comments after the most recent articles.
So who is he to this case? How did he get his hands on the information? Was it in relation to his job? If so, then could he be fired from said job?
Hope springs eternal…..
;-D
Emily Bazelton is a lawyer trying to shamelessly hustle a high-profile case and a dead girl for big $money$. Which makes her an unprintable word.
For all we know “Danny Bloom” is an invented shill for the defense. He cannot be taken seriously….some of the stuff he posts is outright shit. Another one wanting his 15 minutes of fame.
Amazes me every day what people will do for $money$ and *fame*.
I’ve discussed this case, and the cyber-bullying case, with my 16-year-old daughter. I have to agree with her opinion, that these kids (the victims) had emotional issues that weren’t dealt with properly at home. As to the bullying, my daughter’s words were, “they should have sucked it up and moved on.” As harsh as that sounds, there’s just too many instances of people blaming others for their inadequate parenting–or believing that there’s some magic drug out there that’s going to “cure” emotional and/or behavioral problems and relieve them from being a parent.
You sound like a victim blamer. Let me guess, you are an enabler. To me, this was more than bullying, this was terrorism. The bullies are no different from Osama bin Laden/September 11 Terrorists, Charles Manson/Manson Family, or Adolf Hitler/Nazis in terms of their mentality. They felt paranoid and threatened and blamed others.
Sally,
You could not have discussed this case factually with your daughter. Hurling full soda cans from moving cars, breaking into personal accounts, pressuring a girl into sex with knowledge of her personal psychological history, and claiming credit for her suicide as an accomplishment are not run-of-the-mill bullying.
I suspect from the way you phrased the conversation, that you are not in fact the mother of a 16-year-old, but are instead just one more schill in this “discussion” with a PR rush from the defense. I’m actually 75% sure your IP address will be a commercial account and should he press the issue, he could probably find out far more.
Why am I suspicious? Because we’ve seen other comments made with someone who my little diction analyzer pegs as coming from the same city and state as you. It’s been wrong before, but given that you also chose Sally and the name Erin(here) last time, screams at me that you’re some sort of amateur who thinks you understand the way the internet works. Google announced today that online anonymity has a short lifespan and will end in short order. I argue that true anonymity died because of spammers, trolls, and schills a decade ago. What you’re trying to do, isn’t new, isn’t that sophisticated, and isn’t working. Tell your boss that you need to hire a Computer Scientist(or 10) and spend about 300,000 dollars on new software, because the people who do this much more professionally than you, spent 500 times that amount starting in 2001 when they started needing to find terrorists on message boards, and sorted them out with diction analysis and a bunch of other tricks that would make you cry in your sleep at how ineffectual you are. This is “old” science, your methods are crude, weak and in this case, coming up against a brick wall. Even people with less Techno-Savvy aren’t going to buy your garbage.
And incidentally, even if I’m that 1-5% wrong about you, as I have been about others, your argument is specious because it lacks any evaluation of the actual charges the Hadley 9(now) are actually facing. They’re a parrot of the defense, and the defense thinks they’re being cute.
You know, I was thinking Sally a shill for the defense too. Just look at the wording. I seriously doubt she is a mother because she would engage in victim blaming, which is a common trait of evil. Having children should make people more mature, not less.
I don’t know if I buy the whole proof, given some of the articles on this site, but I think you’re seeing the stuff I’m calling amateurish. Her grammar is great, but the internet isn’t necessarily about perfect grammar. A Computer Programmer would have made this more systematic. A system I worked on would take articles people had written then translate it to a specific style based upon a bunch of base rules that adapted to the general style of the writer. The purpose of the software was to demonstrate that you could randomize diction without sacrificing the message and that you could analyze the messages of one person or group and then send false messages to them in their voice. The software didn’t sell as well as we had hoped, but it was some awesome fun writing it. I like to think that software was being used for good, but there are other products on the market that do what we were trying to do, far, far better, and they don’t just sell to the government. The licenses aren’t cheap and they’re not perfect, but had this little stunt been pulled by a firm armed with that software, you can still break those messages by deconstructing the purpose and intent. You’re doing that as well, which is to take each concept and break it down.
1. She does a call to authority and sympathy as a parent in her first sentence. That’s common on boards for a new post, but why now?
2. She used a 1 word, commonly recognizable female name. Some might note that I simply call myself Jason. My name is actually Jason, as are several million other males in the US and abroad. I graduated High School with 43 other Jason, and many of my friend and I have to call each other by last names. That non-sequitor aside, the name choice is purposeful. Other schill posts use names like, “TruthSpeaker” or some other crap to try to segue the point in there. Normal people arguing on the internet do that, but it comes off staid.
3. He message disregards the actual charges and focus solely on the Defense’s spin on the case. Relatively fine, except that it denies the statement of intent that she’s discussed this case with her daughter. A friend of mine in High School’s mother, discussed the OJ case with her at length during the trial. The primary purpose was to discuss the parameters of an abusive relationship. The message was targeted towards safety and well-being for her daughter. This isn’t that. This is a projected piece that attempts to argue first and foremost the Defense position and disregard any message.
4. In the same position how would I write a schill post? Here I’m only going to throw three things out.
I’d have put a first and last name, not because it was normal, but because it was abnormal. My Impersonation would be of a real person I randomly found on Facebook who comes up fourth or better on a google search of her name. I would have earmarked her as a strong conservative woman who ids as a mother. Finally, I would have saved my call to motherhood as a closer for the argument. I don’t need latency to get my message across here, I want the defense position to be subtext.
As a final note, I would not in good conscience work for this defense. I’ve worked for Wall Street Banks, Adult Industry sites, the Government, Education and a host of other services either directly or through the clients my employers served, and I have a lot of guilt for things I did earlier that were not necessarily “good.” I’m a code whore, but I have standards, and this is not a good client, message, or service.
“As a final note, I would not in good conscience work for this defense.” You said it all right there! She has no conscience.
You’re daughter said that? What a kid, eh? She seems to have the same understanding of the issues here as a 45-year-old hired gun defense psychologist. Is your 16-year-old daughter also a 37-year-old lawyer? Does your daughter somehow age differently than us humans, you know, like dog years?
And as long as we’re on the subject, is there a magic pill that relieves the perpetrator’s parents of THEIR responsibility for raising 6 animals who celebrated the suicide of someone they had been torturing for months? Is there?
I feel for you, “Sally”, I really do. It must be really hard to live without a spine, and to constantly wonder where that funny little thing called a soul wandered off to. Oh, and that heart of yours? Nothing more than a pump. You forgot what it was really for a long, long time ago.
Now, I don’t know if you’re a whore for the defence of the South Hadley shits, I mean six (or nine), or if you are for real, but either way you’re one hell of a shitbag. If you really are a mother, and have a 16-year old Hitleress-in-waiting fucktard of a child who honestly thinks victims like Phoebe Prince are weak individuals who should’ve “sucked it up and moved on”, then you redefine the concept of monsterhood, especially if this is the kind of behavior you encourage in your children.
However, I’m going to go with Jason here, and – in this context – elevate you to the status of whore for the defence of the SH Shitbags. There’s just something about your post that gives off an evil smell that makes me think you’ve been rolling around in something any normal, sane, upstanding citizen wouldn’t touch with a fifty miles long pole with a light-saber at the end. “As harsh as that sounds, there’s just too many instances of people blaming others for their inadequate parenting–or believing that there’s some magic drug out there that’s going to “cure” emotional and/or…” yada fucking yada. Smells like lawyer-talk to me, and not the words a mother – no matter how evil – would use.
Does it hurt, “Sally”, being exposed as a fraud so soon? Or is this closer to smarting? You know, I would ask you how you sleep at night, but I have a funny feeling I already know…
Anyway, regardless of who or what you are, you disgust me. And the fact that you probably feel pissed off at the verbal abuse you’re sufferning on this website disgusts me even more.
One day this will all bite you in the ass. If it’s not biting you already, only you’re too preoccupied being always right to notice.
Like I said, I feel for you. About as much as I felt for that turd I evacuated from my bowels yesterday.
Are Sally and Erin, the same person? I’m sorry, I phrased that wrong. Shouldve said, “Are Sally and Erin, the same lying, game playing, heartless, soulless, spine-less, ball-less, law-raping shitsuckers?”
heh one thing I noticed about our dear Sally here is that she used victims in the plural….interesting, there was only ONE victim…methinks this person is actually siding with the shitbags
The general opinion is that Sally and Chunkfish are shills for a pr company working for Bazelon. They’re very obviously paid to be assholes. I guess if you have a talent you should pursue it, but when it means losing your soul there can’t possibly be enough zero’s on that paycheck.
Whoever’s payin em, isn’t payin enough. Shell out some real money, Mr. PR person, and hire someone who can write intelligently AND be an asshole AND not give the game away.
You gets what you pays for.
I read books about psychopath/sociopath and I can tell you these bullies are clear cut psychopaths. My thinking is that Narey and Mullins are borderline because they fear abandonment and are often prone to anger, which drove them to harass Phoebe Prince. Longe and Velazquez are most likely anti-social and what is known of Longe, has an addiction problem which runs in the family. As for Mulveyhill and Renaud, most likely narcissistic and anti-social. The reason I think that is Mulveyhill is narcisstic is that he is the football team captain, which feeds his ego and makes him feel powerful. Am I saying that all football team captains are narcissitic and egotistical? No.
I suspect that Narey, Mullins, Longe, and Velazquez have some issues of paranoia and often feel persecuted. Paranoia includes feeling of jealousy, which they clearly show. Compared to Phoebe Prince, who was attractive, they were at best plain. Narey reminds me Casey Anthony, Longe reminds me of Rosie O’Donnell, while Mullins reminds me of Ted Bundy. I tend to think they likely have issues of self-hatred/inferiority complex and superiority complex. They are clearly insecure.
Their academic future is uncertain. All I can say is “HA! HA!” (Nelson’s laugh).
http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2010/08/academic_future_uncertain_for.html
I don’t give a damn if those worthless pieces of excrement are feeling the heat in regards to their education. See how concerned I am about them! If this is an attempt to garner sympathy, it failed with flying colors. They caused their own pain.
” Dunphy said his client, Renaud, is losing a year of his life waiting for his case to be resolved.” AWWWWWWW!!! Did him now!!
Phoebe Prince has lost years, and years. Her best ones, too.
Wow. If your 16 year old daughter said that then that would mean there are even more of these evil little fucks running around. This is worse than I thought. Do us all a favor and get her some help before her sickness spreads.
Emily Bazelon needs “AAA” batteries so she can go fuck herself.
Her sex organs probly dried up and fell out a long time ago. She needs a handful of D batteries at least.
Which reminds me of this little bit of trivia from the files of Enema Bassholeon: she used to hide her tail in the forwardmost hole, but it kept falling out (and was constantly covered in blisters), so she had to follow the advice of the rectal raiders and shove it in the poop-chute.
Oh, and you know that old saying that truth is stranger than fiction? Hmm, kinda makes you think, doesn’t it? :-)
XD XD
LOL. All of you are wrong. I’m not Erin. I don’t work for the defense in this case. I don’t even know these people. (Oh, and my first name really is Sally). And I am a mother of four beautiful, level-headed, successful, caring children who are not bullies, but know how to stand up for themselves. And, you’re all missing the point: parents need to take responsibilities for their actions–including the parents of the bullies–because obviously, they weren’t teaching the right thing to their children either. But to put your kid on a drug that has a warning that it may cause suicidial idolization in teenagers–and then to be surprised when they kill themselves? Let’s be honest–this is merely a blame game. The point is–problems start in the home. No amount of bullying can make someone kill themselves if they had a strong foundation to begin with.
Again, you haven’t read about this article, you can’t possibly have talked with anyone about this intelligently (mainly because you’d have explained to your daughter how not to be coerced into sex with peer pressure involving personal information, mentioned calling the police when you are assaulted, and mentioned basic cyber-security when dealing with sexual predation, stalking and harassment). You’re a moron and a schill. These kids aren’t charged with bullying, they’re charged with rape, harassment, assault, stalking, and theft.
I completely agree with you, Jason, well said.
And Sally? “No amount of bullying can make someone kill themselves if they had a strong foundation to begin with.” Words only an ignorant moron with an extreme asshole-complex who doesn’t have a fucking clue what bullying is would say.
It doesn’t matter how strong a foundation you have, if you’re subjected to bullying, it will begin to crack. And once the cracks appear, it’s only a matter of time before you begin to believe that it’s the cracks that are there forever, not the foundation itself. Then you begin to believe that you have no right to call the foundation you’ve been standing on your own. You lose yourself. And by losing yourself, you lose your will to live. Only someone who’s been there can know how that feels.
And sanity has nothing to do with it. I’m one of the sanest people I know. Still I tried to kill myself twice in my teens. Oh, and before you go and choke on your laughter, I had – and still have – a rock-solid foundation. I just lost sight of it, due to bullying. And that can happen to anyone.
I know I’m probably wasting my time trying to reason with you, seeing as how you really don’t give a fuck about victims (if you were to tell me that rape is not a crime and that pedophiles are excellent examples of upstanding citizens, I honestly would not be surprised), but being an occasional optimist (and currently suffering from that condition), I’m giving it a try anyway. But you need to understand, I’m only doing this because you made one valid point – that parents also need to take responsibility. On that issue I can actually agree with you.
As for the rest of your drivel – “four beautiful, level-headed, successful, caring children who are not bullies” my ass, not with your attitude – the jury has reached a verdict, and in my book you’re still a shitbag. I suspect you’ve always been one and I have a hard time imagining you’ll ever be anything else.
Again — yay to you, Homer, and I would only add, that once the cracks are there, bullies sense them and go after them and the weak spots, under constant hammering, expand and grow. Vicious circle.
Congratulations on your Mother Of The Year award Sally. I wonder what you’d say if one of your children happened to find themselves with a chemical imbalance of the brain, one that left them depressed, or aggressive, or caused them to behave inappropriately. Do you think you could just parent them back to good mental health? There are morgues full of the children of people who thought like you do and learned the hard way that you can’t force their clinically depressed daughter to stop doing drugs or being promiscuous by grounding her.
I find your lack of empathy for parents who have been less fortunate than you distasteful, and I have to remind myself that it’s not your children’s fault that you’re an arrogant jerk, or I might wish that some nasty thing like PTSD (after being molested by Uncle Billy) or Schizophrenia befall them, just to teach you what it’s like to deal with a child who suffers from some type on mental illness.
No, while a large part of raising good kids depends on the skill of the parents, just as much depends on plain dumb luck – religious people would call it doing your best and leaving the results in God’s hands, or having a guardian angel watching over your children. If you deny this, than you are even more arrogant than I thought.
You are right, Max. I’ve been clinically depressed since I was a teenager, possibly since childhood. My parents, with the best intentions in the world, tried to “Good Parent” me out of it. Didn’t work, in fact made things worse. It’s taken me years to undo the damage.
Too bad Sally chose to ignore my post E. But it was partly a test too. Now I’m pretty convinced she (or he) is making her entire story up.
If I’ve learned anything doing this job, I’ve learned a lot about how people behave. You’d think someone who is so high on their own parenting skills as Sally here is would jump at the chance to slap down an amateur psychologist like me for challenging her competency. The fact that she wasn’t interested says that she’s more interested in defending what these punks did to Phoebe Prince. I don’t think she has any children, and she’s never been a parent – she only said that to make her argument sound more legitimate.
It’s either that, or she’s afraid to debate me. Are you afraid to debate me Sally? Did my comments cut a little to close to the bone? Are you hoping that if you ignore me, I’ll just go away? Are you afraid that if you reply, you open yourself up to some real analysis by Jason and the rest of my friends, who are much better at this than I am. Are you so unsure of yourself that you’re afraid of the crucible? Where’s that famous arrogance now?
I maybe kept the ball rolling longer than I shouldve. But it was fun watching the tone and verbage change with each post. i agree with Homer, it was probably 2 people, at least! Ghost Writer and Flamingo Boy must be their buttlove nicknames for those special moments..
XD!!
My situation is similar, as I also have a mood disorder. Mine wasn’t correctly diagnosed until I was nearly 40. My parents would tell me to “just snap out of it.” “just stop thinking like that.” “Just stop acting crazy.” Well, it only made me hate myself more. To this day I still have a very low self esteem. I tried to make up for the pain inside by drinking and doing drugs and getting attached to guys that were no good for me.
It took me a long time to learn that I wasn’t “crazy,” but nor am I “normal.” Normal is overrated anyway.
And I just want to add-I’m not a victim blamer. The terrible things that people do to others continues to amaze and stupify me. But the victim’s families that I truly feel pain for are: the family of Jessica Lunsford, who was taken in the night and buried alive; the family of Junny Rios-Martinez, who was taken by a sexual predator who conned him and his family; the family of Shasta and Dylan Groene, who were subjected to unthinkable acts; the family of Channon Cristian and Christopher Newton, who were carjacked, raped and tortured before being murdered; the family of Brianna Dennison, who was taken while she slept on a couch; the Harvey family, who were brutally murdered because they left their front door ajar. Do I sympathize with Phoebe Prince”s mother? Absolutely, as much as I would any parent who lost a child. Do I agree that these bullies should be prosecuted? No. Too many variables are involved.
Oh go bury yourself in a pile of cockroach dung. You’re only trying to make yourself look human, but you come across as nothing more than a fucking hypocrite. And too many variables… in what fucking way? Oh, right, that’s just a convenient expression, isn’t it? One usually overused by defence attorneys.
Ah, fuck, I should have known my optimism regarding your humanity never stood a chance. Oh well, can’t say I really expected anything else.
Come to think of it, cockroach dung is way too good for you. I’ll try to think of something more suitable for you. But I have a funny feeling that I can’t reach that low.
And Homer, I’m sorry you were harassed and bullied in school. High School sucks.
Stop acting noble.
Well, maybe not so much noble-I was kind of hoping that maybe alittle empathy might prod him into a discussion rather than a name-calling session.
OMG! LOL! ROTFLMAO!
Aah, fuck, my head hurts trying to be as phony as you. Sally, Instead of empathy, try honesty. That usually works for me.
“Withdraw Exhibit A for the defense, the State’s objection is sustained.”
Get used to that concept.
Not one of these 9 now, not 6, are being charged with “bullying” or with Phoebe’s suicide you twit and defense schill. They’re being charged with RAPE, ASSAULT, HARASSMENT, STALKING and THEFT.
Those are their actual charges and those are the charges they will be convicted of, regardless of the defense’s bullshit claims and the claims made by your firm. You aren’t being successful in shaping this argument. Every time you make a comment or a post, you’re being countered by effective and complete communication and refutation, and when all of your efforts fail, I hope the defense stiffs you on the bill.
Hey dude- Don’t think I ever said they were being charged with bullying–but that is the basis of the charges. And that would be statutory rape–among teenagers.
“Hey, dude” ???? Again, an extremely strong clue that you are not who you claim to be. And the rest of your comment doesn’t fit with the beginning. You come across as a dopehead who suddenly turns into a lawyer. Not a good combination. I’d again ask you to be honest, but that’s a lost cause, isn’t it?
LOL. It’s more like Hey duuuude. What do you want me to say? I grew up in California, and it just sort of fit in response to his comment.
@ Sally, I grew up in California. When we say it, we generally say it without the “hey.”
Your story doesn’t hold water. You for the first time referenced the charge as statutory rape among children, when the charge here will be rape by coercion. My guess is you’re aiming for the other charge for some sort of plea. No mother(worth the name) could look at these 6, read the actual charges and the actual actions they took against Phoebe, and then find their actions anything less than criminal and soul-less. Unless they have an ulterior motive to letting the criminals go free.
Let’s take your hypothetical children here as examples. Empathy is the necessary tool here. Your daughter comes home from school, and says she was bullied by two other girls and a boy to give oral sex to three other boys while they took pictures of her with a camera. In this hypothetical situation, there’d be an inquest on your mind and you’d ask how they forced her to do this? You’d beg to know how this could happen. Then you get the rest of the story, about how she’s not a virgin, and she’d had sex with another boy, who’d taken pictures of her, and he’d put some of them up on the internet and spread them around school and some of the teachers had seen them.
But the worst pictures weren’t even out yet, and everyone was calling her a slut, until she had to accept that yes, she had, had sex before and it was part of her image now to be sexually active. That image gave her armor to ignore the insults, but then she was down in the locker room, and it was put up or shut up time, and she had to do it or they’d make fun of her again, and now there are even more pictures.
And there’d you’d be stunned, blaming yourself, blaming the school, blaming the other kids, blaming your daughter, blaming everyone that could get a piece of this. And the law would be correct and on your side to arrest, try and convict each and every person involved. But then your daughter begs you not to have them arrested, not because she’s concerned about their safety, but because those pictures would destroy her. Shame is an instinctive reaction to peer pressure. It’s demonstrated in thousands of animal species as a sign of submission to dominance, and it results in actual suicidal actions by dozens of animals. Shame is a feeling of hopelessness and helplessness, and if you think my example is worse than what Phoebe went through, then you haven’t been reading the case here.
Phoebe was fragile, but that wasn’t actually her fault. New studies confirm that introversion is set in personality by age 6. You can break free from some of the boundaries of it, but these are learned skills that take time and maturity rarely grasped before age 25, let alone while you’re being coerced into sex, sexual acts, and being tortured with the proof of these acts and references made in confidence about your psychological stability. These are coercive measures and they’re documented in this case. These are the same techniques used by American Service men and women to make Iraqi men pile up in naked sex pile, walk around on leashes and submit to torture. It is the very definition of torture, the very essence of coercive rape, the conclusive result of stalking and continued harassment, and even though statutory rape will be proven as another charge, that charge pales in comparison to the abuse she faced.
Every time you post, we get a little further up the result list. Mention that to your boss on Monday morning.
I failed to stress: Some American servicemen and women performed these actions while serving at Abu Ghiraib prison. Most have been convicted of crimes related to their actions. While it hurts the honor of the Uniform, I am not making a political statement about the armed services, which I respect, but focusing on the parallels that allow the terrorist example to be confirmed and even lauded as accurate.
Sally, sorry to say, (well not really), that you speak with a forked tongue. You state: “But the victim’s families that I truly feel pain for are: the family of …” and then list several horrible murders as if to imply that you don’t TRULY feel pain for Phoebe Prince’s family. Then you state: “Do I sympathize with Phoebe Prince”s mother? Absolutely, as much as I would any parent who lost a child.” If that were true then why would you make a distinction between Phoebe Prince’s death and the others you listed? After all they all lost children. Homer was right when he said, “you come across as nothing more than a fucking hypocrite.”
Because there is a huge distinction between the listed murders and Phoebe Prince. If you’re going to prosecute–why not prosecute all the kids that knew about it and did nothing? Where do you draw the line?
Wow, are you even human, or just a lawyer-bot?
Those six shits (and here I’m talking about the original six) knew what they were doing. That’s enough for me to draw the line. As for sharing the blame, again, that’s nothing but desperate defence attorney talk, because it’s an argument that can be stretched into infinity and is a great way to introduce the jury to reasonable doubt (which you, no doubt, are supremely aware of).
One other thing – you seem more preoccupied with proving your point rather than defending yourself or your opinion. If I were a mother – which would require a sex-change that I’m not really that keen on – I would take great offense at being called a shitty mom and having my child-raising abilities questioned. And if I truly believed that there was a risk of a miscarriage of justice here, I’d be a shitload more emotional in my posts.
**Sniff, sniff** Goddamn, something really stinks here. Oh, right! It’s you! Listen, if you’re going to pretend to be something you’re not, at least don’t insult our intelligence by straying out of character.
Man, I’ve had bowel movements that were more human than you.
I don’t get defensive about being called a “shitty mother” and calling my parenting abilities into question, because I don’t feel insecure about my parenting–my kids are walking proof. And I don’t see a difference between “proving my point” and “defending my opinion.” Same difference. But here’s the difference between you and me–I don’t have to resort to name calling to make my point. I can base my argument on things I’ve learned in life and knowledge. My point is: mom should have never stuck her kid on anti-depressents–she’s a teenager for God’s sake–let’s teach our kids that with drugs–pushed by drug companies who are only in it to make profits–are the answer to our problems? They’re not. Further, mom should have considered pulling her child out of that school. I would’ve in an instant if I had an emotionally fagile child being harassed. Last, mom should have taught her daughter how to deal to with bullies–it’s not breaking down and crying. I had people try and bully me in school. I stood up to them and got right back in their face. Sometimes I got my ass kicked, but the bullying stopped.
Sally, I repeat: I’ve had bowel movements that were more human than you. Not to mention smelled better.
“I don’t get defensive about being called a “shitty mother” and calling my parenting abilities into question, because I don’t feel insecure about my parenting–my kids are walking proof.” Right. You seriously have no idea how arrogant that sounds? Spoken like a true alpha-bitch – I don’t need to feel insecure because I am always right. The thing is, your kids aren’t here on display. You are here, and your words and actions determine how we see you – and, in extension, your kids. And based on your first posting, it’s hard to come to any other conclusion that your kids (if, in fact, you have any) have a lot more in common with the SH6 than with the rest of humanity.
“And I don’t see a difference between “proving my point” and “defending my opinion.” Same difference.” Okay, let me try to explain this. What I meant was that you seem more focussed on the legal points than the emotional and personal ones. Which, in a case like this, I cannot help but find a little weird. I’ll say it again – you sound more like a defence attorney than a mother.
In case you missed it, that’s not good.
“But here’s the difference between you and me–I don’t have to resort to name calling to make my point.” Oh you asswipe shitbag fleacunt STD-hostel motherfucker, you’re really just a pissant piece-of-shit bully, aren’t you? Let me guess, you think the world revolves around you and that you have the right to look down on everybody else, and what you’re really pissed off about is that you’re finally meeting some unexpected resistance. You arrogant asshole.
“I can base my argument on things I’ve learned in life and knowledge.” Newsflash, so can a shitload of others.
“My point is: mom should have never stuck her kid on anti-depressents–she’s a teenager for God’s sake–let’s teach our kids that with drugs–pushed by drug companies who are only in it to make profits–are the answer to our problems? They’re not.” Great way to shift the blame and dilute the issue. Hell, the SH6 aren’t to blame, it’s all a part of a great conspiracy perpetrated by the drug companies. Oh, and I really liked that touching “They’re not.” at the end. Really. Almost made you seem human.
Until I read the beginning of that sentence again, and realized that it’s not just the drug companies you’re blaming, it’s Phoebe Prince’s mother as well. And just like any bully, you just don’t know when to stop, do you?
“Further, mom should have considered pulling her child out of that school. I would’ve in an instant if I had an emotionally fagile child being harassed.” What really kills me is the total disregard and utter disrespect you show towards Phoebe Prince’s mother. How dare you blame her for not trying to do everything she could for her daughter? How dare you insinuate that you are a better mother because if you had been in her situation, you would have handled it differently?
You sanctimonious, hypocritical shit.
Thing is, Sally, you’re not psychic. Teenagers are masters at hiding their emotions, and parents are usually the last to know about problems their kids encounter in school. Besides, pulling your child out of school is a solution that sounds simple in theory, but which often turns out to be harder in practice.
“Last, mom should have taught her daughter how to deal to with bullies–it’s not breaking down and crying.” Jesus fucking Christ, just when I thought you could not possibly disgust me more you throw out this shit. Again you sink to a new low by once again – for the third time, no less – laying the blame on Phoebe Prince’s mother. You do realize what you just did, don’t you? You just managed to justify every single incident of me calling you names.
You spineless pissant bastard-spewing fucktard.
“I had people try and bully me in school. I stood up to them and got right back in their face. Sometimes I got my ass kicked, but the bullying stopped.” For once in my life I almost wish it hadn’t. You might have learned a thing or two about humility, compassion and understanding if you’d had that arrogance beaten out of you.
And finally, you’ve managed to set off every single one of my bullshit detectors, and this despite me having learned over the years to tone them down. This is the first time that’s happened in several years, so if I seem rude and obnoxious towards you, tough shit.
But hey, you’re tough enough to take it. Aren’t you?
“Sally,” he, she, whatever it is, is bullying, attacking, Phoebe’s mother. First the stalkers “bullied” and abused Phoebe. Then their defence did it. Now defence is going after Mom.
This is all such a load of horseshit.
And Homer, what do you think about that Negative Ghost Writer stuff?
E, my bullshit alarms are going full tilt here. “Negative Ghost Rider”, “Flamingo Boy”, all those fucking LOL’s and OMG’s and whatnot… Then there’s her/his/its choice of words. Call me paranoid, but sometimes it seems as if there’s more than one person writing.
(Hold on, I’ve got to go quiet those damn voices in my head. For some reason they always start talking german when I’m pissed off…)
Aah, that’s better. Oh, and then there’s the content of the posts. On the one hand, Sally tries to be all understanding and sympathetic, and then he/she/it turns right around and attacks Phoebe Prince’s mother. What the fuck is that all about?
And finally, when the going gets rough, Sally blasts out of here. But hey, if that thing is gone, good riddance, I say…
Well german is a good angry language hee hee! You can just yell out a sentence like Put Your Shoes in the Closet! and sounds like you royally reamed somebody.
What a fun afternoon!
Or “Turn right at the next intersection!” ;-)
I wonder what Flamingo Boy or Negative Ghost Writer sounds like in german?
Fuck, I should know this. I was actually fluent in german once. I still have remnants of it left (for instance, ballpoint pen is Kugelschreiber, which almost sounds like a sex-toy… or maybe that’s just me). Should we go and ask ze governator?
Dang, posted this in the wrong spot. I’m all over the place. Darn old computers and their buttons and their mice! “LOL “godammt” Homer, my hat’s off to you! That’s a hard language! I studied it for 2 years, did very badly. Did you grow upspeaking it, or what? My folks lived in Germany for 2 years and I was almost born over there.”
Sally, in all honesty, I still don’t believe you are who you say you are. Your posts sound slick and practiced. You use all the right words, too many times to be convincing. Something is going on here.
LOL. OMG! You got me! I was a f*&^ing Eng. Lit major.
WTF kind of a reply is this? And what a way to avoid the real question…
Sally, everything you do is just reinforcing my already low opinion of you, you know. I mean, I’m usually a nice guy, but you just press all the wrong buttons here…
No, WTF to you. I can write, and therefore, I must be up to something? Here’s what I am- a member of the public that’s been reading this site for at least 2 years and only recently disagreed so strongly that I decided to comment. There’s no cloak and dagger here. You guys are totally untrusting people.
@Sally, We ARE untrusting. If you’ve really been reading this site for 2 years, then you know what kinds of stories we’ve read and all the different shapes n colors of shitstains who play the starring role in these stories. Damn straight we’re untrusting.
And when I made the comment about your writing sounding slick and practiced, and I didn’t mean, “Sally, you can write, therefore I’m suspicious of you.” A person who “can write,” who can communicate, paint a picture with words, whatever, sounds the very opposite of slick, practiced, and phony. (Unless he or she wants to.) Their style may be elaborate, obscure, straightforward, whatever, but it does not sound slick and rehearsed the way your writing does.
I’m going to go out on a limb here. I think you’re a young person, maybe early 20s, who is interning this summer in a law office. Or some PR firm. And you were given an assignment to leave posts here n’ there, at various websites, about this case against the South Hadley Shits. I’m guessing your employer crafted a new identity for you, maybe several. Nothing carved in stone, maybe it was just a suggestion that you pose as a young-middle-age parent of several kids, you and your kids talk openly, you discuss bullying, and other topics of the day. In this persona, you deplore the public anger against these stalkers and statutory rapists.
No. I don’t think so. Something is still going on.
Negative Ghost Writer–I’m 46. My oldest child is 26. I don’t work for a lawfirm and I haven’t been hired to post things on this site. For untrusting people, I’ve noticed that no one has mentioned the possibilty that the prosecutors in this case just may have a political agenda. It happens you know.
@ Sally, The prosecution may very well have an agenda. I said we were untrusting, not that we were naive.
But I’m curious what you mean by agenda. Do you mean, they’ve falsified facts? Or suppressed facts? Are you accusing them of lying? Of exaggerating?
I don’t think they have. All news sources I’ve followed seem to agree on the basic story. That Phoebe Prince was stalked and harassed, not bullied, that she killed herself, and that her tormenters celebrated her suicide. If the prosecution concocted or tweaked or unduly emphasized any of that, then they did a supernaturally thorough job.
Are you saying that the prosecution has it in for middle class East Coast Caucasian kids? It’s possible, I guess. But did these kids or did they not torture Phoebe Prince? If so, cook ‘em. If the prosecutors have a grudge, fine, cook ‘em anyway.
How does any prosecutorial agenda, change any of that?
And I don’t “deplore” the public anger. Be angry. But you have to admit that things are not always black and white. Sometimes there’s grey areas. There just happens to be tons of it in this case.
@ Sally, also, the opening words of your post are odd. Don’t worry, I’m not jumping to any sinister conclusions, I’m just curious, what do you mean by Negative Ghost Writer?
What’s gray about stalkers using the word ACCOMPLISHED after Phoebe’s suicide? And celebrating the suicide at a school dance? Doing the “Noose Dance,” I read at one site.
If it’s true–you know as I do that things posted on sites are not always true–but if it is, shame on them and the families that raised them.
And “Negative Ghost Writer” is just a term I learned in an office I worked in and it stuck–it just means “no.” It’s actually kind of fun to say–it rolls off the tongue, kind of like “Flamingo Boy” is fun to say out loud.
Sally, I re read your posts. Okay, it’s not public anger you deplore. Fair enough. You criticize people who look for others to blame, and I must have taken that ball and run with it. But in my re reads I noticed quite a few harsh words for Phoebe’s parents and mother. So we can focus on that instead. Why aren’t you doling out blame to the South Hadley Shits’ parents? You do say something like, “Emotional problems that weren’t dealt with in the home” (no not an exact quote). But that’s a flimsy statement to account for teenagers who stalk and harass and celebrate death.
Phoebe is dead. Her parents’ shortcomings won’t affect her anymore. Whereas the 12 other parents have produced individuals who could very well continue to stalk and harass, right on through high school, maybe during adulthood. Why aren’t you giving them their share of the blame? And, do you think parents who don’t deal with emotional problems in the home are going to hold these teenagers accountable for their actions? Will you be scolding them in a few more years, if these little bastards graduate from shoplifting and drunk driving and harassment, and go on to fry even bigger fish?
I’m going to stop posting “replies to E” –I’ll have more room and wider posts that way.
The words should be, “Negative Ghost Rider, the Pattern is full.” It’s a quote from Top Gun, a movie that came out probably before this Intern was born.
Thanks Jason. I googled it this morning at my husband’s suggestion and got the Top Gun reference (never saw the movie). Still strikes me as odd.
Years ago, when I was tech editor at a small engineering firm, I set up a series of after-work classes in business writing. These were mandatory, and most of the employes weren’t happy about them.
The operations manager came to the first class. (They weren’t mandatory for him.)
I’ll never forget what he wrote, and read out loud, when the instructors asked everyone to write down how they felt about the class. He wrote, “I used to really dislike writing and felt uncomfortable when my job required it. But now that I’m learning the basics, I see writing isn’t so bad and is a skill we all need to develop.”
Can you smell the phony?
Sally’s posts remind me of this.
So where were we . . . oh yes, you answered my question about Negative Ghost Writer.
“Sally” that’s just Friggin ODD.
It JUST — DON’T — ADD — UP.
Yes, co workers use peculiar sounding inside jokes, and strange expressions do exist — but — “Negative Ghost Writer”? Huh?
You didn’t by any remote chance mistake me for another poster at another site, did you? No? Just thought I’d throw that out there.
What kind of company did you work at, where this expression came to birth? How often did you say it? It’s an awful lot of syllables! And . . . Flamingo Boy? Have to say, I’ve never rolled that one off my tongue! Has anyone?
Sally just what kind of alternate universe do you inhabit?
I’m very curious to see how others here react.
I didn’t ask you for your reaction to ACCOMPLISHED and the suicide celebration and the Noose Dance. Assuming they exist. I asked you what was “gray” about these actions. Gray as opposed to black or white.
@Sally, regarding your remark, “Shame on them and the families who raised them,” I didn’t ask you for your reaction to ACCOMPLISHED and the suicide celebration and the Noose Dance. I asked you what was “gray” about these actions. Gray as opposed to black or white.
Also, Sally, it just occurred to me this may not be the place to hold a long discussion. Are you on Facebook? We can talk there.
Helloooo, Sally, are you there? Or are you creating a Facebook account as we speak?
Sorry-out running errands. Actually, my facebook is for friends and family.
Got that. I just didn’t want us to monopolize the board with our discussion. We can discuss, or not, I’m easy! Admin, if we get too long winded, or use too much space, you call us out, hear?
Sally? **tapping microphone** is this thing on? You never did tell me what kind of agenda the prosecution has . . . Sally?
I understand. You’ve had a lot of websites to cover today, and you’re all tuckered out.
Have your 25 y old tuck you in.
If this were a video, you’d see the camera slowly panning across a vast desert landscape, the only sound the eerie whistle of the desert wind…
LOL
And, I think definitely 2 people were involved, one younger who’s a dreaming of a career in standup comedy.
LOL “godammt” Homer, my hat’s off to you! That’s a hard language! I studied it for 2 years, did very badly. Did you grow upspeaking it, or what? My folks lived in Germany for 2 years and I was almost born over there.
So, none of you have kids, right?
Because if you do, they are all pussies. All of them. I’m pretty sure all of your sons wear your underwear on Saturdays and go over to Jamal’s house for a furious dicking, and all your daughters are holed up in there goth-oriented room, cutting themselves with daddy’s razor and using the blood to write their next mascara-stained poem.
Bunch of pussies. You wanna know why?
Kids learn from their parents. And your kids’ parents are soft-skulled pussies.
It might be acceptable if you were SMART pussies, but sadly, this is not the case. We have USS Yorktown over there, who, with stoic demeanor, compared internet pranksters to international terrorists. Nice. Your comparison skills are nominal. Now cut your balls off.
But I’m just mentioning the winner of the Special Olympics. The consolation prize, with its big shiny participant letters, goes to the rest of you:
Sally mentions something to the contrary, and you all flip shit like she just offered to piss on Phoebe’s body. Some of you primary school dropouts actually started name-calling and all sorts of mud-slinging (an ample demonstration of your argumentative skills and logical reasoning), the kind of behavior that got Phoebe to off her self in the first place.
Yeah, you fucking geniuses took part in internet bullying. Or, as USS Yorktown said, international terrorism. That’s gonna really clash with your catholic upbringing.
Oh, and Homer, way to get talk of your shit-fetish (I would say Corprophilia, but then you would have to check your dictionary so your little pseudo-intellectual facade would hold intact. Your welcome buddy) in edgewise, because everyone likes poop-talk as much as you do, right? You write like a fat virgin. Get off the internet, and get laid. Although I suggest losing at least 250 pounds of that pasty ass-fat first. Growing a personality might help too.
Gee.
Sounds like Sally went around the office asking for help.
Sounds to me like they’re having a little circle-jerk… Always suspected Sally was a troll, this seems to confirm it.
Way to go, Chunkfish, you must really be proud of yourself.
“Corprophilia”? Really, Chunkfish? Sounds like you need to check that ol dictionary yourself, sunshine.
Nope. Had nothing to do with it–but it’s funny as hell. And do you really need to look up corprophilia E? corpro: has to to with the body instead of the spirit. Philia: is a sexual gratification. So, essentially, Chuckfish is saying Homer gets a sexual gratification from shit. LOL. Gotta love it!
The stress is on the misspelling that both you and your puppet Chunkfish made.
Coprophilia not Corpofilia or Corpophilia. The root is Greek. In Greek you’d have just made a word that means body lover. Corpo means body, not crap. The word Corporation literally means to form into a body.
Body lover, “gotta love it!” No wonder my dictionary couldn’t find it…
Though you missed an “r” in Sally’s post, Jason, she/he/it wrote “corprophilia”. Does that mean the body’s a professional?
He MISSPELLED it, stupid. I don’t have time to recheck my Oxford A.D., but there was no “Corprophilia,” retard, and your claim that “corpo” means body, while not inaccurate, is inaccurate in this context. I studied medical terminology for 2 years and we can discuss that any time you like. Idiot.
E, they’re the same person, or maybe even someone in the same room. The word was a mistake, a misremembered insult one of them had been called somewhere else that they tried to use. Sally ineffectually defended the word with the wrong root, claiming that the body dealt with excrement, when in fact the corpo prefix focuses on the living and the potential of living. kópros the prefix used in the actual insult is akin to life from death. Excrement was the primary fertilizer, while it was the black bile, voided from the Greeks and their ruminants, it was also the key to sweet olives and better crops. A coprophile would have been shunned in Greek society, but English developed scatophilia in the same place. S’cat is to go quickly, literally the unhealthy release of loose stool as fast as a cat. I am a logophile(word lover), the slinging of shit can be left to Sally and her PR firm.
@Jason, me too, the word loving not the coprophilia. Talk about a feeble excuse (bringing “body” into it, spare me. My medical terminology teacher is spinning in her grave). I thought that business about Negative Ghost Rider was a big excuse too. Flamingo Boy. I’d bet money that this person was hitting websites all day and got mixed up.
You’re interested in medical words and medical conditions, did you ever read Anomalies and Curiosities of Medicine?
What meaning do you expect your delusional self-important statements of unknowing, inexperienced opinion to have to us who think and reason? You’re an idiot. A moron of the highest order. You’re so stupid it’s a wonder and a pity you can remember to breath. Intelligent ideas bounce off your head as if it were coated with teflon. Creative thoughts take alternate transportation in order to avoid even being in the same state as you. If you had an original thought it would die of loneliness before the hour was out. On an intelligence scale of 1 to 10 (10 corresponding to the highest attainable IQ) you’re rating is so far into negative numbers that one would need to travel into another quantum reality in order to even catch a distant glimpse of it.
And yes, I mean you, Chunky and smells like fish.
Oooh, listen to the tough guy here. I bet your kids are the fucking model of mental health. “Be normal or I’ll kill you,” probably work real well from where you’re sitting, but if one was to read your kiddies minds, oh what a tale they would tell.
Sally basically said the same bullshit you’re saying, she just used bigger words. I like your way better actually, Chunky, because, like the guy who is openly racist, you’re easier to spot than the phony intellectual who tries to shmooze you into thinking their argument is reasonable.
Most mental illness is caused by chemical imbalances in the brain. They can be exasperated by stressers in the kid’s environment, and in some cases triggered by them, but parenting has very little to do with it. Phoebe was being treated for depression long before she got to South Hadley High, but it took a whole slew of evil acts by those little bastard defendants to push her over the edge.
But I see why you especially are so hot to defend the six defendants (that is what you’re doing, no matter how much you deny it). You comment was a beautiful example of someone attempting to attack logic with insults and intimidation. You’re a very angry person, aren’t you Chunks? It shows in all the sarcasm you use in place of real arguments. You brought nothing to this discussion but juvenile insults and childish remarks.
And your theories about parenting? Groundbreaking, simply groundbreaking
Oh, and your crush on Homer is really showing. I don’t know how he feels about that sort of thing, but I’ve always found that the direct approach is the best way to a person’s heart. All this beating around the bush can be a real turn off.
Sorry, sorry, but obviously I don’t have any respect at all for you, so this is the best comment you’re gonna get.
**applause** I could not have said it better myself.
Once again, I’m forced to direct someone in the direction of the nearest bottle of lube with strict instructions to fuck themselves.
Oh, no….I guess I’m one of those horrendous internet bullies, eh chunky and smells like fish?
How ‘dya spose he came up with that nym? Hmm. . . chunky . . . blowing chunks . . . hmmm, fish . . . my guess is, he had a flashback to the night his mother conceived him.
Are we bullying people here? I don’t think so. You are really delusional.
Hell, tell me about it. Even though I did have an unfair advantage compared to you in that several of the main words in german are similar to my mothertongue (yes, I’m European, as you may have noticed from the timeframes of my comments, and in case you’re wondering, english is my third language). And in my younger years I spent a couple of summers working in Germany.
Though I have to point out that, though some of the words were similar – or even the same – they didn’t always have the same meaning, the languages being distant cousins, which led to some interesting mishaps. And no, I will not delve deeper into that pit. Anything your imagination might conjure up is most likely way more fun than the boring reality… ;-)
Oh, and “Goddamn” is “Verdamnt”, pronounced FAIR-DAHMT! :-D
Like I said I was bad at German. Sucken sie Deutsch. Haha!
As for Phoebe;fuck her. She was stupid. She was pushed to suicide by BULLYING. Really? Could you imagine what the pressures of real-life would do to her once she moved out of her parents’ house?
Phoebe was so stupid she thought the cure to her emotional hurt was to KILL HERSELF. She cured a headache with a guillotine.
Let her grow up to vote? No thanks. We have enough of you to fuck all that up as it is.
In summary, life is a hard game. And little Phoebe, quite literally, failed at life.
You sir are a MORON!
No sweetie–I think that’s pretty much what he was saying about you. And from his writing–he’s no moron. Maybe just above your comprehension. But I’ll tell you what–after my first experience blogging this site–or any site–think I’m done. Pretty damn sure Chunkfish is right–it’s rather scary that some people are allowed to vote. Thank God we have a Representative Government so maybe some of you idiots can be filtered out. Peace out!
So is chunkfish your husband or your last name?
Btw- I discussed this case with my 15 year old daughter and she was horrified. She thought the kids were at fault and should be punished. I don’t mean to rub it in but my kid’s a way better kid than your kid. :p
Aw she’s gone, and she never once answered one of my replies. Well, I guess I was just above her level of comprehension – isn’t that right, sweetie?
Man, I love when I nail then pseudo-intellectual bullshit artists. And how pathetic was it that she had to call in one of her BFF’s to help her out – well, try to help her out. Chunky was the equivalent of bringing a knife to a gunfight. Jesus, what a cretin.
Why do people like Sally and Blowing Chunks think we sit around waiting for someone to disagree with us, just so we can all gang up on them? Has it ever occurred to them the when everyone is saying you are wrong, it’s because you ARE WRONG.
I hope no one got the idea that I was really taking the credit for nailing Sally here – That was just me chumming for trolls.
Aaaww, did we huwt yow widdle feewings?
But hey, that’s the problem with not practising what you preach. All that talk about sucking it up seems so easy, doesn’t it, until you’re the one who has to do the sucking.
Good bye and good riddance. Oh, and you can drag little Chunky-boy with you on the way out, seeing as how you two have so much in common.
Chunkfish is “no moron”? EXCUSE me? He can’t even spell coprophilia, and that’s his main claim to fame!
No sweetie, you are the moron. What the hell does a representative government has to do wit this?
It’s a troll. Talk about failing at life.
Don’t feed it. It will go into such a spin at being ignored that it will eventually fly up its own ass and disappear.
You’re a real nice guy, chunkfish. The old “suck it up” attitude. Must be tough to be your son, with you having that personality disorder and all.
Emily Bazelon is at it again. She really lost her mind. This time she is saying that Phoebe Prince was a bully in Ireland. That sounds like saying that Osama bin Laden got sick of perceived Islamophobia and felt he had to fight back by attacking America on September 11, 2001.
http://www.slate.com/id/2263470/
Thankfully most of the comments are attacking her.
She’s unbelievable, isn’t she Yorky? She never mentions that the incident that Phoebe was involved in happened when she was 12 & 13 years old, while Phoebe’s perpetrator’s are 16 to 18 years old. There’s miles of difference between those animals, wouldn’t you say? I’m organizing my thoughts for an update on the original editorial on Emily. One thing is certain, if the defense team for Phoebe’s assailants isn’t paying her as a publicist, they should be.
What some people won’t do to stretch out their 15 minutes of fame.
Please, can we vote for her to burn in hell this time? I really want to vote on this one…
I know. What’s up with that?????????? Sounds like an enabler to me. Enablers are just as bad as the aggressor. Aggressors thrive because of enablers like victim blamers and killer groupies.
These bullies are no different from terrorists like the 9/11 Terrorists and Islamists. They are always territorial, insecure, vindictive, and rageful like those bullies.
Yorktown, where were the comments? I went to the article just now. Comments: 0. I know sometimes they’re deleted.
I know there were comments. I guess they removed them. Bazelon may think she’s bold, but she is a coward.
I’d bet money they were removed. Shit like that happens. Free speech, ha. thank god for this website.
Yeah, no shit. I’ve encountered something similar on certain websites. Once I wrote an honest review regarding a book that turned out to be an extreme disappointment, and I gave it one star out of five, because that was as low as you could go. Two days it survived. On the third, it had been deleted and replaced with something that could only have come out of a marketing department. Shit sells as long as enough people are made to believe it’s gold.
The fact that Emily Bazelon – and her spineless editor at that shit publication she bullshits for – decides to delete any comment that doesn’t shove it’s tongue up her ass comes as no surprise. She’s a typical bully, displaying typical bully behavior. Not to mention a cowardly little bitch who thinks she can ignore not just the truth but any concept of honesty and morality as well.
One can only hope the teeth sink deep when all this comes back to bite her in the ass.
Long may she burn.
7 of my 11 comments on Bazelon’s new article were deleted yesterday. Most, shortly before Emily herself commented.
If you’ll note, there are several talking head commenters not unlike Erin and Sally who started accounts within days of the posting, have 2 or 3 nonsensical posts on front page entertainment, and then have 12-15 posts on Bazelon’s article.
Do you smell what the PR firm is cooking?
What I smell, smells like shit.
That absolutely suckss. Comments should not be deleted. Leave em alone and let the reader beware. If Barge ass alon doesn’t like it, Fuck her. Fuck her anyway.
What is at the root of all this? Does one of the South Hades families have money? Or is it Bazzy herself? Someone is going way way overboard. To Protect the Shits? To defame Phoebe? To make a sensation? Questions, questions
“Fair And Balanced” takes another hit. I left a pretty harsh comment in reply to Emily’s – well, I don’t know what to call it, but in my reply, I just called it bullshit – comment. I’m curious to see how long it lasts. There are a couple of people who have consistently criticized her article, and done it well. I thing the comments have run at least 90% against her article which has been gratifying to see. I’m hoping that this all comes around to bite Bazelon on her ass very soon.
I’m also glad the prosecution has taken the high road during this entire disgraceful display. Trying this case in the press could have backfired very badly, especially when your opponent has no scruples and seems to be willing to stop at nothing to trash the reputation of the victim. And Emily darlin’ hasn’t even started on Phoebe’s family yet.
It smells rancid. I hope they get food poisoning…
I hate bastards like this who have a set agenda and think freedom of speech applies only when someone agrees with what they themselves are saying. And who use sockpuppets to reinforce the illusion that there actually are idiots out there who are of the same opinion.
Assholes. Long may they also burn.
I can see why the comments are gone. She cannot take the heat.
Can you believe that bitch? What the hell is her problem? Does she have a personal vendetta against Phoebe or what? Doesn’t she realize she could get sued for Christ sakes? I’m all for that Bazelon bitch burning in hell! Count my vote in.
I went on youtube and looked this hack up. My god she’s even more pathetic on tv than I thought. She has this snivelling little voice that sounds like nails across a blackboard. Frankly, I don’t believe a word of her latest hatchet job. First, she claimed that Phoebe was bullied in Ireland and then in the next breath she saying that Phoebe was a bully! Look, nobody ever said Phoebe was perfect, but at least she was a real human being which is more than I can say for this pathetic piece of trash that’s maligning her
posthumously. Phoebe’s friends and family are very pissed off at the bitch’s latest effort. I’m very tempted to email this bitch and tell her how disgusting she really is, but I doubt it would make any impact. Does anybody else feel like this?
A blogger who has been covering this case from day one sent an e-mail for Bazelon to answer.
http://run4chocolate.wordpress.com/2010/08/18/emily-bazelon-responds-to-spirited-debate/
Her response is long winded as she is. More proof you cannot reason with stupid.
It gets better, Emily Bazelon’s grandfather founded an organization, The Judge David L. Bazelon Center for Mental Health Law, which protects the mentally ill. Bazelon is going against her own grandfather.
http://www.bostonherald.com/business/media/view.bg?articleid=1275751&srvc=rss
Even the Phoebe’s school master in Limerick says she was not a bully.
http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/Limerick-school-principal-responds-to.6484859.jp
To suggest that Phoebe had it coming is like saying America had it coming on September 11, 2001 or Virginia Tech had it coming because they felt wronged by the world.
Hi! I am new here and I just wanted to say thank you for this page. When I was younger I was bullied very badly and it still hurts me even 20 years later. My heart really goes out to Pheobe PRince and this case has resonated with me for a long time. I first read the Emily Whatever her last name is article on the Yes means yes blog and was horrified! What the fuck does her dating the girls b/f have to do with anything! And No that is NOT normal high school girl behavior! And she was bullied by boys to wtf!
And this here is absolutly discusting……..and shows how low the defense is stooping….I mean come on wjho the fuck cares if she engaged in bullying in Ireland? First I doublt it was anything as severe as this…socond…What the hell does that have to do with anything?!?!?! Really really diisgusting, I hope most people see through the facade of “seeking the truth” and see it for the steaming pile of crap that it is.
What’s sad is that Emily Bazelon can’t seem to find anything else to write about. 15 year old Phoebe is dead, and her bullies continued to mock her after her death, instead of showing some remorse for the pain they caused. How would Ms. Bazelon and her family feel if after she passed (after the age of 15), people continued to attack Ms. Bazelon about her mistakes in life? (easily found on the internet)
max, what you’re doing is an absolute good. i am so enraged by what emily buttlicker is doing that i have gone beyond rage i’m actually upset. will be on again when i’ve gathered my thoughts. deliberate and unalloyed evil.
john again i am from ireland and i used to live 5 minutes from villiers boarding school in limerick where buttlicker claims phoebe bullied a girl her own age. apparantely there are private investegators in limerick working for the defence. it’s now clear we all know someone else working for the defence.
I saw some of the comments directed at Emily Bazelon before removed it. She was compared with Adolf Hitler, which seems to be very common, like being compared with Osama bin Laden. Also, she has been called “sub-human”. She is getting hammered left and right.
This sadistic sociopahtetic reptile realised at 37 her chances of attaining any real success and fame in both the fields of law and journalism were gone. What you’re left is is a sadistic falure raping the the character of a completely innocent beautiful VUNERABLE not mentally ill girl for some sort of recognition. Bazelon on the scale of evil is much worse than the SH6.
Is suicide a terrible, awful thing? Yes. No question. Does Emily think that dying at the merciless hands of bullies is what Phoebe deserved? I certainly didn’t get that impression from her article(s), but I could be wrong, of course. Does a suicide negate the person’s life? Absolutely not. I think it behooves all of us to not sanctify anyone simply because they were driven to kill themselves. Why is Phoebe above scrutiny? Because she’s dead? Because she’s a victim of bullying? Emily is a journalist. She writes first as a such, though, granted, through the lens of a lawyer. And crucify for that if you wish. After all, if we’ve learned nothing from the tragedy of Phoebe’s death it’s that the digital veneer cast down by the internet provides of a perfect safety net for the cowardice of anonymous social critique. But what benefit does it bring to society when we fail to examine this entire situation with at least the slightest shred of compassion? Compassion for Phoebe, her family, and Emily. If Emily killed herself tomorrow because of the comments on websites like this, some of you would rejoice in celebration, much like Phoebe’s peers reportedly did upon news of her suicide. “Good! Glad she’s dead,” we’d say. “She’s probably in hell!” “She deserved it!” But I beg you, what’s the difference? Where’s the compassion, and where is the perspective? Take a step back, breath for a second, and try your best to restrain your use of words like “morally reprehensible,” “evil,” and “unethical.” They’re, after all, the adult equivalents of “slut,” “bitch,” and “whore.” Grow up.
Hey Jeff,
Go look up the word Schill. Then realize that what Emily Bazelon is, she took the defense at their word. She took only press releases from the defense and the defense’s case, she took medical records in violation of HIPPA and then she smeared a dead teenager in an effort to help 6 bullies, who committed rape, assault, harassment and stalking, off their charges.
That’s morally reprehensible, evil, unethical(for a journalist), it makes her a whore for the defense, evinces a calculable level of bitchiness, and if she does it again, it makes her journalism more than merely slutty, it makes it brutally clear she’s thrown away any sense of morality and character.
You aren’t an adult, you’re either a child dragged from your bed, to naively support Phoebe or you’re something that thought it was an adult, when you woke up and went to work for a monstrous thing that is trying to keep monsters in the open. The Hadley 9 are monsters. Emily Bazelon is with full knowledge helping these monsters get away with monstrous things. That’s not a good or decent thing. It’s what prior incarnations of our culture would have stoned or pressed with rather large rocks. Instead, now, we use words in a digital veneer, to make sure children and other adults don’t tread into those rough waters and do such nasty horrible things.
Go get a freezer pop sonny, you have a lot of growing up to catch up on.
Since when is Phoebe above scrutiny? Details about her depression and her cutting have come to light. So? It doesn’t change anything that the South Hadley Shits did. It doesn’t make Bazelon’s stunt any less repugnant.
When you say Phoebe is above scrutiny, what you really mean is, she didn’t do anything terrible. Nothing is there to scrutinize. Of course like all of us she was imperfect, but her flaws are nothing sensational.
And that drives you crazy. Your camp has nothing, and you know it. You try to make up for it by stating that Phoebe is above scrutiny, and whining about that. You imply that Phoebe committed terrible deeds, which would come to light if only it weren’t for crazed Phoebefans who refuse to take off their rose colored glasses to criticize their hero.
Phoebe never stalked anybody. She never assaulted or harrassed or threatened anybody. If she had, the details would have come out by now.
Why don’t you face facts — The Shits did a terrible thing, and they are going to pay. Bazelon is an unethical person, and she is paying now. Don’t you dare equate us and our comments with the South Hadley Shits. They picked on an innocent person. We’re picking on someone who is doing bad things and knows better. Nuff said.
Oh, and you can tell Emily all that, when you see her, from me.
Jeff, Phoebe Prince was a 16-year old, vulnerable teenager. Emily Bazelon is a 37-year old, mature woman. Let me state the obvious: these two are not comparable. One of these ladies should be fully aware of the consequences of her actions. Hint: it’s not Phoebe.
This is why I honestly don’t understand when you say we should feel compassion not just for Phoebe and her family, but for Emily Bazelon as well. Am I missing something, or are you asking us to see Emily Bazelon as a victim here as well? Or that we should somehow try to understand her without condemning her?
I’m sorry, but I can’t do that. Emily Bazelon made a conscious choice to defend the SH9 (because that is basically what she is doing by attacking Phoebe Prince). That is not an action conducive to inducing feelings of compassion among people who have been bullied and who can identify with how life must have been like for Phoebe. Emily Bazelon knew what she was doing. And she must have been aware of the potential for a shitstorm. If she can’t handle the consequences of her words and actions, that is not my problem.
Also, you wrote: “If Emily killed herself tomorrow because of the comments on websites like this, some of you would rejoice in celebration, much like Phoebe’s peers reportedly did upon news of her suicide.” But of course, and some of us might even reportedly post “accomplished” on facebook.
Get real. Again you compare Emily Bazelon to Phoebe, with no ground to do so. The circumstances are completely different. And you compare the SH9 to the posters here, which is incredibly rude.
We’re slinging shit at Emily Bazelon because she wrote an article of questionable value, morally and ethically, not because of who she is or because she stole someone’s boyfriend. Okay, so the comments stray into the realm of personal insults, I’ll admit that. But again, Emily Bazelon is a mature, educated woman who we have every right to assume was aware of the volatility of her articles. And this is an extremely sensitive and emotional issue, bound to bring up the best – and the worst – in people.
Just to make things clear, we’re not pushing to have her commit suicide, we’re trying to get her to pull her head out of her ass. So far with less than stellar success. Which has nothing to do with the way we present our arguments here, but everything to do with the fact that Emily Bazelon by her very behavior gives every indication of being an asshole.
Finally, I can’t help but think you’re on the right track when you write “grow up”. But you should maybe consider looking at the mirror when you say it.
Just a thought.
Anybody wishing bazelon would just fuck off and die are sadly mistaken. When the trial begins this reptile will place herself firmly at the centre of media proceedings as an apologist for the defence against all fact. The fact of the matter is bazelon either illegally saw the police reports or she didn’t either way she lied through her fangs about the content of those reports. You have had you’re 15 minutes already you’ll probably have 15 more and after that you’re done. ENJOY IT YOU SAD BITCH.
Bazelon illegally had access to and published very sensitive medical reports pertaning to phoebe’s mental well being most of which would have
been inadmisssable at trial before the trial. This is the breathtaking part of this folks she then went on to blame DA Elizabeth Scheibel for taking the case because all of this would come anyway out and caused distress to phoebe’s family. Someone with a finer mind than i work that out for me.
In America, she violated HIPAA laws. Only the patient and if deceased the family can consent to release, which is not the case.
That last post post was poorly written just home from work
it’s 19.30 here in ireland or as we say half 7 long day and all that.
Sentiment and resolve still the same.
You’re all wasting your time. Creating detailed, eloquent arguments about the levels of “bitchiness” exibited by a journalist? How exactly is that beneficial? Emily won’t rescind the article. Phoebe will not rejoin the living. What’s the point? How does meaningless online banter contribute? Why don’t you take the half hour it took to invent your witty statements and clever remarks and do something positive for society?
Seriously. Stop wasting your lives.
Take a look at your post, then look up the word ‘hypocrite’ in the dictionary. Mmmmhmmmm.
We don’t care if Emily rescinds her article. It’s out there and she cannot take it back. We’re just really enjoying grinding her face in it. Obviously it’s working, or none of her schills would be visiting PYSIH trying to make us stop. It has to bother her that, when anyone Googles her name, the words ‘WHAT IS EMILY BAZELON’S PROBLEM?” come up, probably on the front page. She may laugh about it. She may tell you it doesn’t bother her, but deep down inside I know it does. How could it not, even though we’re a bunch of strangers?
Oh, and, for lack of a more eloquent and witty closing comment… fuck you.
The purpose of this site is in fact to call down the wicked, and call them out on their actual crimes. This eloquence is a form of journalism actually far more respectable than Bazelon and is used to inform the public and provide fair discourse. Reasoned arguments against Bazelon and the Defense Team PR firm she colludes, is in an effort to mitigate their efforts to twist what is clearly illegal acts and call for both public, civil and criminal investigation into her actions.
Journalism is the effective trump card to Journalism. Note the capital “J.”
But Monica dearest, this IS how I choose to give back to society, and I wish it only took a half-hour of my day. Providing a place for people to vent their anger and rage about rapists, murderers, and abusers of little children, and showing our solidarity with the victims of the scum we feature here and their families, seem to be worthwhile activities to me.
Perhaps we should drop everything and join Sea Shepard, so we can chase the Japanese whaling fleet with that fat bastard Paul Watson and his crew of heartbreakingly pathetic losers. If we’re lucky, he’ll let us shoot rancid butter out of the air cannon and cheer when someone gets a hit with the giant paintball gun.
Now that’s living!!
Monica does not realize that we have a right to exist and she has a right not come here. What part of that does she not understand?
It makes you angry, doesn’t it, Monica? Why? Why does it bother you so — our wasting our lives? (We aren’t, but just for the sake of argument.)
You don’t have your face buried in Bazelon’s ass, do you? You aren’t by any chance another intern, are you?
I thought not. Just askin. Well, I really can’t improve on Becky’s close, but I can enhance it maybe: “and the horse you rode in on.”
Emily Bazelon refuses to defend her own article when being challenged at her own site.
http://run4chocolate.wordpress.com/2010/08/26/emily-bazelon-refuses-to-defend-her-article/
Talk about being thin skinned and insecure. She is no different from those serial killer groupies.
Horner, first of all, I do want to thank you for responding to my post in a logical and rational manner. Clearly we don’t see eye to eye on this matter, but I can honestly say that I find it refreshing that such issues can be discussed on-line without resorting to petty name calling and childish mudslinging. I’ve never been to this site before today, but perhaps I’ll examine its contents more frequently now that I know that intelligent people function as frequent contributors. Next, responding to Jason (Horner, I’ll get back to you), I for one take solace in the fact that we no longer live in “prior incarnations of our culture,” for, if we did, we’d lack the capacity for reason and understanding. I resist the binary you so casually established regarding the parameters of my character. Yes, I am an adult (about whom you know very little), but no, I do not wish to keep “monsters out in the open.” I just believe very strongly in attempting to understand all sides of a situation–particularly ones with such catastrophic extensions–before pressing stones on those we deem responsible. As for E, well, all I can say in response to your post is yes, the Shits did do a terrible thing, and yes, I believe they will pay. I freely admit that. Not once have I denied that what they did was indeed repugnant. But please know that your argument rests in the idea that had Phoebe stalked somebody, “the details would have come out by now.” Just consider that absence of evidence does not signify evidence of absence. I’ve admitted I’ve been wrong in the past. I just hope you can do the same thing. Now, Horner, to you; yes, I have little ground to compare Phoebe with Emily other than the fact that they are human beings about and to whom people speak very harshly. Scathing critiques sting just as much at any age, I’d wager. And yes, I am suggesting that perhaps we should try to understand her before condemning her. I’d like to think that, in the name of universal morality, that’s what we should all do when confronted with an opposing force. I guess I remain concerned at the haste and the willingness with which we condemn others under the presumption of moral certitude without ever really stating the basis for that morality. Is it wrong to have doubt in situations like this? Why isn’t anyone on this cite claiming the position of uncertainty or humility? I’m trying to find shreds of morality in these posts, but perhaps I should seek elsewhere.
Jeff… what do you think you’re saying?
You didn’t manage it.
Just because you don’t agree, doesn’t mean I didn’t manage it. What do YOU think I’m saying is the question. I’d be interested in explaining myself further if you truly wanted to know (which I doubt you do), but I’d prefer you just ask me instead of insisting that I failed to get my point across. Let’s have that logical discourse for which this site so feverishly yearns. I’m game.
Your opening salvo in this conversation ended with:
You called everyone who disagreed with you or called Bazelon’s article for what it was, childish, and then your hypocrisy meter failed so miserably that you opened with it in your churlish response.
Your argument misses that the Greeks, one of the more violent and effective conquering peoples of their time did so at the same time they invented the concept of reason and the Hellenistic model of understanding. We didn’t invent reason and understanding recently. We did invent modern justice much more recently than a capacity to reason and understanding. The mob’s buy in is recent. The requirement for justice to be responsible to the people is recent. These evolutions required the capacities you claim as recent to have developed.
No, you prove them by failing to consider the third element. I’m a Senior Software Developer by trade, I didn’t give you a binary, I gave you a case statement(sometimes called a switch).
Negative Ghost Rider, the pattern is your own foolishness. You came here, swung your thesaurus around and thought you could call everyone savages and childish, and I held a mirror up to your argument and swung the truth in for your legs. When you fell down, you tried to erudite up the language you used and then missed a few commas. You didn’t bother to read the About page before you started commenting, you came at this story cold, and you missed these items because you thought you knew what you were talking about.
You responded to E and the best Straw Man of them all, the true gemstone of your response was:
Peals of laughter do you mind diagramming this sentence with me for a few moments?
Verb: consider
Subject: Implied [You]
Direct Object: absence [of evidence] (Evidence is the Noun)
There’s this false pun of “absence of evidence does not signify evidence of absence,” but it’s the core of this sentence you have here. “You consider absence of evidence.”
Okay, with a lack of evidence, I dismiss your opinion. Is that what you really wanted to say? Did you really want the only judgment of your words to be that because you attempt to “support” your opinion with a platitude about a lack of evidence being an indictment or possible indictment of a suicide victim?
Is that what you wanted to say to make E change her mind?
Slow down and try and organize your thoughts into a cogent argument there chief, because there isn’t one.
Then you go back to horner, with this piece:
Let me state the common ground of morality as I see it, since you don’t choose to consider any opinion.
1. 9 Older children tortured a younger peer with sex, names, assault, theft, harassment, stalking and jeers to kill herself until she did and then when she was dead, they congratulated one another for the accomplishment. There’s evidence of that. That’s why each of the Hadley 6 have been charged, and why one of them is testifying against the other 8 who will be charged.
2. The defense released the Grand Jury indictment(sealed because of the defendant’s ages, Phoebe’s HIPPA protected medical records, and depositions that will probably not be admissible in court because of their sources, to Emily Bazelon, who for money and/or fame printed them in the best light for the defense without consideration for the prosecution in violation of the law, her admission to the bar, and in excoriating penalty to the prosecution on unfounded grounds.
3. That in addition to Bazelon, these same records, in concert or collusion were released to a PR firm that has exercised poor judgment and no restraint in the abuse of these illegally released documents.
4. That while a legal defense is the right of every man or woman accused, an illegal defense should be punished with fines, imprisonment, disbarment, shame and public humiliation.
Is it wrong to speak when you’re ignorant of the subject matter, the flow of the conversation or the participants and then to speak ill of the participants intention without knowing their intention?
Why is this pot calling the kettle black?
You’re trying to use words you are ill prepared to use the definitions of.
Let me do better than a mere prepositional send off. You have the capacity to answer like a human being, but you’re choosing to come off as an arrogant prick who doesn’t even understand why people don’t care why he’s insulting them. You don’t know this case, you haven’t been following it, you need to do a little bit of research and you can’t fake that research here. The people here are much smarter than you think. Their anger is well founded and the purpose of this discussion is much more focused than you’ve cared to notice.
I asked for questions and you give me a tirade? Why do you refuse to engage in an open discussion? Of what consequence is this debate? Why not seek a better understanding of me instead of critiquing–albeit poorly–my grammar and punctuation? I mean, I could point out the syntactical and grammatical errors in your response, but how does that benefit this site or this discussion? Diagramming sentences? Really? There’s nothing wrong with the sentence in question. You just didn’t read it correctly. The absence of evidence does not signify evidence of absence. It’s a common scientific principle which means that just because something hasn’t been substantiated by evidence, that doesn’t mean that evidence doesn’t exist somewhere. Also, if there is a third factor to something, by definition it can’t be a binary. Thus, how can I, as you say, “prove [the binary]…by ignoring the third element”? If it has a third element, it isn’t a binary, so how I could prove it? But seriously, come on. Let’s just talk like normal people here, k? I’ll admit that I don’t know as much about this topic as you do. I’ve read every word of every Emily Bazelon article about the issue, just as I have read almost all posts on this site, but no, I don’t know as much as you apparently do. So you win that one. But come on, Jason. I’ve never used the word “savage,” or anything directly aimed at this site’s contributors. And if I had, I shouldn’t have. That’s not my purpose here. But I would have liked to have a little more open discussion on your end, perhaps predicated on inquiries rather than personal attacks. The reason I say this is because frankly, I’m the minority here. You already have the support of this site and the people who write for it, so why would I ask you any questions. I seek humility. I’m trying to be humble here by conceding that I don’t have all the answers. You are clearly educated and passionate. But I fear that your passion will bear little fruit if it can’t be guided with a little more sensitivity for those whose views may differ from yours. I do, though, appreciate your assumption that I used a thesaurus. I did not, but that part made me smile. I don’t believe I used any words to which I don’t know the definition, but I could be mistaken. So, in conclusion–as, barring any enlightened remarks on your end, this will be my final post–I wish you well. You have a gift for words, and I mean that. It’s a rarity, as I’m sure you know. Phoebe’s death is tragic and bullies should and will be punished. I have always said that. I don’t support bullies, nor do I fully support the crimes committed by Emily Bazelon. However, I wish for two things: one, that we can all slow down and try and organize our thoughts before ever jumping to such brash conclusions (as so many others have did with this and similar issues, on both sides), and two, that you, Good Sir, could one day accept the fact that it behooves you to approach anonymous web debates with a little more humanity and less of a shielded, though well articulated, iron rhetoric. Let’s all grow up, shall we?
Actually Jeff, it’s not scientific at all, it’s the homily used to defend the Bible against science. This physicist though titles his article to attack it nicely. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/victor-stenger/the-evidence-against-god_b_682169.html
By using it, you marked yourself not as a scientist, but a supporter of creationism.
I asked you what you thought you were saying and I showed you how the English language is put together and how you did not make a reasonable statement. Someone who can diagram a sentence can always find the meaning behind a sentence.
I know, you said it was a binary, I called it a case statement. I was calling your comment nonsensical.
Then your opening salvo shouldn’t have been to say insulting people is childish and then called us all children with your closing line. It smacks of hypocrisy and you should have known that if you’d bothered to think about what your words meant.
The angry, “last-word” send off. The refuge of the person who never bothered to present a thesis on the subject, concede to the people here what could be conceded and then prove point by point his opinions. You know, the actual essence of debate.
Tell me, should a High School English teacher, and trust me we have them here, try to find the thesis statement and main points in your articles, could she find them? If she or he were to use simple logic as I did, and not find a single statement of opinion or fact that was clearly, concisely and/or concretely grounded in some form of factual argument, what would she/he have said?
She would have put a shiny F on your effort and told you to follow the simple form. Make a point, back it up, and conclude with a little effort. Start simple before you try to get cute, because cute does not cover this topic effectively. You never once cited anything Bazelon said in on of her articles you seem to be such an authority on–thus your authority was never demonstrated and fails to be of consequence or accepted as one of your credentials. You never allude to their actual content, though you do skim the intent as being “balanced” in some way with no consideration for deconstruction of her motives. Deconstruction being a form of literary analysis you’re not apparently used to using. If it’s something you can do, then why haven’t you bothered here?
Why didn’t you notice it when I used it to tear through your piece and look for some sort of idea you were presenting and then supporting.
In closing, this is not a quiet pond where you can gaze into it and see the tadpoles swimming beneath your smiling reflection. These waters have ripples, shoals and predators within them who are looking to tear the meat of what is thrown into them apart. The bones can and will be used for detail, the facts will be checked, and anything else will cost you. You called everything in and around the pool as childish because you glanced at it and somehow felt superior. You are not superior. You could not hold the least of these chops.
I did you a favor by trying to get you to say something worthwhile.
“let’s all grow up, shall we?”
*ahem*
You first.
Thanks again, Homer. I really do appreciate you not lampooning me on this site like you’ve done with so many others. I don’t know what I did to deserve such fair treatment (maybe you just don’t care…), but I appreciate the conversations nonetheless. Jason, you’re so wonderfully consistent. For the time being, though, spare me the lesson in rhetoric. You haven’t succeeded either in this debate, and I haven’t submitted my articles for grading just yet. I’m not too concerned with the hypothetical grade I’d receive on these articles, though, as the Masters Degree and published thesis I’ve previously constructed will provide a wonderful safety blanket for me as I try to sleep tonight amidst the anxieties of wondering whether or not I used a comma correctly. Thanks for the link to “absence/evidence” article, but I’d like to point out that Carl Sagan (whom I doubt is a creationist), is often credited as coining the phrase “absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.” Sure, the same argument applies for the existence of God, but it also applies to basic scientific research methods. Avoid the argumentum ad ignorantium, Sagan would say. But that’s neither here nor there. I’m done with this, though. It’s been real, but I’m taking my ball and going home. Call it a victory, if you wish, but I’ve said everything I can think to say, having never uttered the word “insult,” and, based on my rereadings only once articulated anything that could possibly be contrued as a direct insult; that pesky phrase Grow Up. Now, I can see and understand how my using that phrase might hightlight a degree of hipocrasy in my otherwise “holthier than thou” position, and thus fuel the fire you have against my dissention, but it certainly wasn’t meant as an insult: more of a suggestion for us all (yeah, yeah, yeah, “me first,” “look in the mirror,” I got it. And I will). I certainly didn’t imagine that such a couplet of words would spark such heated animosity towards my character, but I stick by them. As opposed to Homer, you’ve not once attempted to be civil in this discussion–which, of course, is your perogative, but rather have you insisted on critiquing every subtle nuiance of my claims. While this may be an intergal component to debate, please understand that my intentions here were never to “win” anything, but instead to simply posit questions. Your incessant barrage of rhetorical criticism ultimately leads me to conclude that you know as much about the execution of effective debate as I apparently due about the Prince case. True, you do not know how old I am, and frankly, I’m suprised you mentioned that, because it suggests that your perona-esque methods of attack are done without the slightest consideration for the fragility of my psychological state, whatever the case may be. I may be a child myself–loquacious, pertentious, and obnoxsious–but a child nonetheless, but you wouldn’t know. Sadly, I don’t think you’d care. And I guess that’s where I say my final goodbyes. I’ve enjoyed the swim in these waters, but would like to assure you that your tenacity did little to puncture my flesh, let alone devour any shred of conviction I had. Last note: a colleague of mine once told me a story of how she would punish children (back when she taught high school), for refusing to say the pledge in class. I frowned and finished my salad. I’d never punish a student for such a refusal, but rather would take the opportunity to turn the situation into a teachable moment. I value sites like this and will fight against any foe for their preservation. I just probably will find another place to swim from now on. (Ending these damn things without that “final zing” is a pain in the ass, right? not trying to be cute, but it really does suck…) Hogwarts.
Negative Jeff, he is cited as the source, but this quote is shorthand for the second proof against argument from ignorance. You used it incorrectly.
You were arguing that just because there was no evidence of Phoebe’s crimes, doesn’t mean that she didn’t commit them. That’s anathema to our justice system. Using the argument of ignorance here is a straw man. It’s the same straw man used by religious nut jobs when they say, God wrote the bible, the bible says God created the Earth and all of the animals in 6 days, it’s all true, even though we haven’t found any evidence of this yet, “abs. of evidence is not evidence abs.”
Good ole Carl actually argued this one in counter. A is B but C is not A, but there is no D, that proves that A is not B, does not sustain that there can be some D because there is no evidence of D. The logical fallacy does not hold that a lack of evidence can be used to disprove the overwhelming weight against the possibility of evidence, merely that the negative is not proven by evidence’s lack.
The specific example is, do we have the missing link? No, well it does not disprove evolution, merely because we do not have every step in the evolutionary chain. That is a logical fallacy. The preponderance of evidence is not the negative of evidence, nor is the lack of a specific evidence a proof of the negative of the theory.
Your introduction was hypocritical. your opening was don’t insult, and then you insulted.
You should work on those questions.
You still haven’t bothered to read the material for this “teachable moment.”
You showed up and said we should stop calling Emily Bazelon names, and then as a hypocrite must, called us all a name. Then you got your nose bloody. You thought people would smile at your smarmy Master’s Degree, but it means less than a well digger’s ass in this argument. How much do you know about the South Hadley 9? How much do you know about Phoebe Prince, the victim of these crimes? Did you hear that Emily Bazelon may have accepted money from the defense to write these articles on Slate? Do you know the name of the PR firm engaged by the Hadley 9′s defense attorneys? Did you hear that one of the Hadley 6 is singing like a Canary and is telling the DA all about what happened? Even telling the DA about them breaking into one of Phoebe’s classes(these were Juniors and Seniors and Phoebe was a freshman) and insulting her to her face, then told her to commit suicide? Did you hear they used coercion to get Phoebe to have sex with one of the boys? Did you hear that the Grand Jury indictment, Phoebe Prince’s medical records and about three other things Emily Bazelon used as sources for her article were illegal to release? even by a reporter. Even under freedom of the press?
You didn’t know any of that, nor do you know which of the above are just gossip and which are substantiated facts. You came here and tried to pull an Emily Post, and you failed. When I turned it right back on you, you cried and threw a tantrum. You then spouted off a string of words you did not understand the meaning of. You used a logical fallacy incorrectly and claimed it was the scientific principle it is not. It’s a short hand for identifying one half of a logical fallacy. It would be like me saying Post hoc ergo propter hoc when referring to an apple not being directly comparable to an orange. That’s a failure of logic.
You don’t have the tread on the tires you need for this journey Jeff. You came up flat far too early.
Jeff, I’d like to try and explain why you’re getting the reaction you’ve gotten over your original comment, and why that comment is the reason you may never get the so-called open discussion you’re looking for.
Clearly, it comes down to respect, or should I say a lack of of it. Jason obviously doesn’t have much respect for you, and honestly, neither do I. Emily Bazelon’s pair of articles on Phoebe Prince are so obviously biased for the accused and against Phoebe, and written with such meanspiritedness and disrespect (disrespect for Phoebe’s privacy, her memory, the suffering of her mourning parents) that they were bound to elicit a passionate response from good people everywhere. You would have to be blind to not see here real agenda is to try and help the defense team representing the 9 punks who drove Phoebe to suicide.
So what do you do when you decide to leave a comment? Do you take Emily’s side and try and defend her articles? Do you try to explain her side of the issues? Hell no! You choose to nitpik us for our lack of compassion for Emily Bazelon. You suggest that we would love to see Emily killing herself over the comments made on this website.
Now this one here is my personal favorite, you ask us to refrain from using words like “morally reprehensible,” “evil,” and “unethical.” saying “They’re, after all, the adult equivalents of ‘slut,’ ‘bitch,’ and ‘whore.’”. Well Jeff, what would you call a 35 year old lawyer who violates the privacy of a 16-year-old victim of suicide by releasing personal medical information, calls her a slut (in so many words) and suggests she got what she deserved, and uses false or irrelevant evidence to back up her arguments, except morally reprehensible, evil, and unethical.
Jason has already let you have it for your incredibly ignorant statement, “absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.”, as in just because there’s no evidence of the allegations Bazelon makes against Phoebe doesn’t mean they’re not true. Have you honestly stopped and thought about what that means? It means all anyone need to do is make an accusation against you and that would be good enough to make you subject to all kinds of searches and seizures without a warrant. It takes probable cause, one of the foundations of our civil rights, and tosses it in the shitcan.
I feel sorry for you Jeff, I really do – Jason has tried his best to show you the error of your ways, as has Homer, but you seem intent on engaging in an argument you can’t possibly win. We’ve had people like you on this website before. (Remember Stapler Jason?), people who think they can judge us and save us from ourselves. People who think they know what’s best for us. People who think their moral compass points at a better North than ours.
I really wish you could remove yourself from the situation and look at what’s going on here from where I’m sitting, to see how weak your argument is and how bad you’re making yourself look. Maybe you should show this thread to your mother, and see what she thinks of your performance so far.
Jeff, I didn’t lampoon you like I did the others, not because I didn’t care but because of the way I perceived you. I did see the same arrogance in your posts as did Jason (remember how I said it was incredibly rude of you to compare us here to the SH9?) and the childishness (re: my little suggestion to look in the mirror), but at the same time you were, in my eyes, like a tourist with your camera around your neck, map upside down in your hands, and a confused expression on your face. Also, you didn’t try to argue what a great human being Emily Bazelon is (and in my case, that’s an argument you could never win, because let’s face it, she’s a major asshole), but questioned our morality and our intelligence by wondering why we had to be so universally mean. The way I saw it your confusion was genuine enough to warrant a reply that would give you an opportunity to understand and to see the error of your ways.
As for Jason, he is one of the smartest and most analytical posters here, with an extremely sensitive and well-developed bullshit detector, and I’m getting the feeling you’re seeing him the wrong way as well. I’m guessing that you, being new here, were unprepared for the close scrutiny a comment like yours elicits, and your first response was to get defensive. Give it a day or two, then read his comments again. You’ll find he’s not attacking you personally, but dissecting your comments and arguments and revealing their lack of content. He’s a lot better at this kind of thing than I am, and seeing that he was already involved I decided to let him handle the intellectual side of the debate.
Like Max said, you need to open your eyes and your mind, and be prepared to see this from the other side of the fence as well. Maybe then you’ll realize why we reacted so strongly to your comments, and possibly earn our respect.
Oh, and Jason, your analogy about this not being a quiet pond where you can gaze at your reflection, but rather one filled with predators and whatnot, was spot on. Well said.
*ahem* Guys, it’s Homer – you know, like that tubby, balding, yellow cartoon character who likes beer – not Horner. Just thought I’d clarify that vital piece of information first.
Anyway.
Jeff, I think it’s safe to say that we can agree to disagree. You’re asking where all the compassion is, without realizing it’s everywhere on this site. Thing is, all that compassion is directed at the victims of the crimes described on this site. They have earned our compassion. Emily Bazelon hasn’t. Don’t forget that she chose to put herself up for target practice. She chose to write an article about a sensitive subject, in a manner that was callously disrespectful towards the victim, knowing it would incite a response. And despite the public outrage, she chose to do it again, this time trying to justify what the SH9 did by alleging that Phoebe Prince herself was a bully in Ireland.
Her actions reveal her character in a way that, for me, makes it irrelevant what her motives may have been. Don’t get me wrong, I would be interested to know what she thought she’d get out of all this. But I don’t need to understand her to condemn her actions and, by association, her. Another thing that says a lot about her morals and her character is the deletion of posts on the Slate website. She can claim it’s because people were comparing her to Hitler and that she doesn’t want to offend any netsurfing Jews, but anyone with half a brain will see it for what it is.
You say: “Why isn’t anyone on this cite claiming the position of uncertainty or humility?” Long-time surfers of this site have come to respect and trust the veracity of the articles here. This site is not a gore-fest, or a smear-campaign, but a kind of safety-valve. If someone is portrayed as a villain here, then the odds are the evidence will back that up. And I find it cathartic to vent my anger in a forum such as this. It helps me deal with the pressures of daily life. However, this particular story is a little unusual, in that the villain here is a journalist writing about a crime. Still, like I said earlier, her actions and her words have earned her a spot here.
“I’m trying to find shreds of morality in these posts, but perhaps I should seek elsewhere.” I’m not sure what you mean by this. With a few exceptions, I find a lot of morality here. If you look past the swearwords and the colorful descriptions of Emily Bazelon’s character traits, you’ll find a lot of people who know the difference between right and wrong, who feel genuine anger at the fate of Phoebe Prince and at the arrogance of the SH9, and who root for the underdog. If that’s not moral behavior, then what is?
I guess it comes down to what you think you’ll find here. If you’re looking for discussions for and against, you’re definitely in the wrong place. If you’re looking for a forum in which to discuss ways to make this world a better place, again, this is not it.
“Now, Horner, to you; yes, I have little ground to compare Phoebe with Emily other than the fact that they are human beings about and to whom people speak very harshly. Scathing critiques sting just as much at any age, I’d wager.” Yes, and especially if that critique is unwarranted. But you’re missing the main point here. Phoebe was targeted for bullying through no fault of her own. Emily Bazelon made a conscious decision to place herself in the spotlight. And she chose which soapbox to stand on. If she is as intelligent as she’d like us to believe, she must have known she’d be pissing a hell of a lot of people off. If she’s hurt by people calling her a nazi bitch, then boo hoo. She’s not getting any sympathy from me.
Oh, and one final thing – if you have read most, if not all, posts here, in this article, then I must, in all honesty, say that your high opinion of me is a little surprising. Look up “Enema Bassholeon” and you’ll know what I’m talking about…
I dind’t call you Horner, Homer… I cited Jeff, but I even gave that Greek setup, hoping he;d grab onto it so I could comment on the fact that he called you Horner instead of Homer, the Greek writer of the Iliad and the Odyssey.
I had a pun ready and everything.
And here I was too busy replying to Jeff to stop and think why it felt so weird that you got my name wrong… Should have known there was something going on. :-)
Now I just have to ask – what was the pun you had locked and loaded?
HOMER, wow, I’m really sorry. My computer really makes it look like Horner. That wasn’t a snide remark on my end, just me misreading my screen. Seriously, though, thanks for the reply. I’ve been waiting for it all day. Jason, you’re fun and everything, but you, Homer, put things in perspective for me, and I really do appreciate it. As I said in one of the posts above, yes, this is my first time to this site, so no, I guess I didn’t really have the full grasp of what you fellas are trying to accomplish here. But now I get it and truthfully, I do respect what you all do. Believe it or not, I care deeply about this entire situation and I really feel the same way about Phoebe and the SH9 as all of you. As a historian, though, (yeah, that’s what I do…), I just get nervous when I see pitchforks being lit without due cause. That’s what I thought was going on here, at first. The fault here is mine. I misinterpreted this site, as well as the integrity of the contributors, and for that I apologize. Granted, the swearwords and personal character attacks are often a bit much, but I think at the heart of your comment, Homer, lies the essence of your goal. Jason, please don’t say things like, “I even gave that Greek setup…” because it makes it sound like the reason I didn’t catch onto your clever pun is because I’m somehow ignorant or stupid. I’ve traveled extensively through Greece (and went to high school), so yes, I know who the epic poet Homer is. I just seriously thought the guy’s name was Horner, so the pun wouldn’t have worked anyway. Sorry again, Homer. I think in the end, my suspicions were correct. I was looking for discussions for and against, thus, I came to the wrong place. Now that I realize my mistake, hopefully you can understand how my comments about the lack of morality stemmed primarily from my misconception of what this site was. Knowing what I know now, I stand corrected. I do, though, usually find myself rooting for the underdog. Adolescent arrogance infuriates me like few things can. My high school, in fact, has been in the news these last few months because of similar allegations involving hazing on an athletic team. Of course I side with the victims. Hands down. I’m no Nazi. I do have a soul. But, yes, the Prince case is different. There are other things to consider and stakes that traditionally don’t exist in cases like the basic bully scenario. But I shall bring my concerns to other sites. Again, thank you, Homer for your wise reply–I do laugh at your other posts for their wit, but ultimately my opinion of you stems from my perception of your ability to put things in perspective to visitors like me. Jason, thanks for the wounds. You hurt my feelings, and I am sad.
No problem, Jeff. Had you added an “i” and called me Hornier, I might have reacted differently, but yours was an honest mistake, so no offense taken.
And I appreciate that you had the guts to admit you misread this site and its purpose. That’s not always the case with people who find their way here and don’t know what to make of it. Usually the only mark they leave is a comment saying how we are the ones who’ll burn in hell, before they disappear.
Anyway, I hope that you find the site you’re looking for.
Now, where the hell did I put that pitchfork?
Jeff, there’s a reply awaiting approval because it has a link in it, that’s going to hurt your feelings even worse. I don’t know how old you are or why you think you were ready to tell everyone else to Grow Up, when you yourself had just said don’t insult people. Those sorts of comments are back handed, and if you didn’t know it then, you should know it now.
You need to figure out the simple way of communicating an idea before you throw in the more complex forms. An argument isn’t just insults, it requires a concrete form and the more advanced arguments follow a strategy, not unlike a chess opening. When you insult someone right out of the gate, it’s like you drop the glove. There’s a specific type of debate called after its primary user, Cicero. Cicero would slam his opponents. Insult them up and down and the only counter was to to take the high road, but if you make an insult in the first post, you’re denied that high road. You end your chance in the debate early on. If you ever take a philosophy class an argumentative literature or logic class or just join a tort or debate team, you’ll suffer through these forms.
If you start out with an insult though, be prepared to lose. Not because someone is better than you, simply because you cannot take the route that will let you win. The other person has to simply choose to let you get away with it.
Just read that link put up by yorktown thanks. It’s the clearest and most concise article i’ve read about this. This strategy by the defence and that ugly freak has completely backfired good people everywhere can take heart in that. Oh and vcbeckey beautifully said. They’re easy to spot.
Dont have the expertise to put up a link type in the ”DA’S response to my phoebe prince piece” there is a guy called EJ commenting there. He is obviously close to the case. He methodically takes issue with the vital points in bazelon’s article and destroys them one by one.
Gentlemen, just in case you guys are wondering, I’m not “Erin” or “Sally” or whatever. Anyone who is cowardly enough to sign in under different names merely to avoid excessive confrontation disgusts me. I wouldn’t do that. I’m not saying my real name is “Jeff,” but I have no affiliation with the person who caused so much controversy earlier in the summer. Just wanted to clear that up. Nice points, Max, Homer, and Jason, as always. I know I said I wouldn’t write back, but I mean, come on: it’s what we do. Anyway, I’m not trying to earn your respect or anything (such an attempt would most likely fail), but please know that having studied (per your suggestions, Jason) Emily’s journalistic “process” a bit more carefully, I’ve come to the conclusion that her integrity does fall under tremendous scrutiny. I see that now. Of course, being the hypocritical, arrogant, prick that I am (“do I contradict myself? very well then, I contradict myself….”) I can’t retract everything I’ve said (for example, I do maintain the conceptual validity of the whole absence/evidence debate), but I definitely see where you guys are coming from. No one should callously pick on a victim (or anyone else for that matter). It’s like blaming the Jews for the Holocaust. I’ve never disputed that. And yes, I said it myself that I am very much a visitor to this site (perhaps even holding the map upside down, though I do know how to use a camera, Homer), but I guess what I was and still am morally against–and by no means am I saying this is going on here–is the blind championing of victims. You all have done the homework and have arrived at conclusions with which I agree. But my first post–way back on Thursday!!–originated because I was under the impression that several of you perceived Phoebe as above any and all character questions merely because she’s dead. I don’t take sides of blaming victims or defending bullies. I just don’t want to get in the habit of defending victims and blaming bullies without knowing the whole story. That was my original stance. Any insults or hypocritical comments I might have slung in your direction were done in the best interest of intellectual pursuits and, despite the evidence to the contrary, not some childish attempt to prove superiority (except maybe the Masters comment, but hey, I was tired). Okay, hopefully you see where at least I WAS coming from and I can leave on good terms? Is that possible? (By the way, I cuss like a sailor, but you three have no idea how refreshing it is to get in a fight without having to resort to those words. They lose all meaning after a while.)
Well done then. You concede what you can, you refute what you can’t, you state your next points and you back them up(with rhetoric, but we can’t post links every day, it takes awhile to see them).
You don’t have to be on my side to get my grudging respect–it helps, but it’s a wrestling match. For example, I’m a political liberal, and most of the rest of the site falls either right of center, or militantly apathetic to either pole, with a few rare and interesting exceptions. This isn’t a political website though, the concept I often repeat is that everyone hates baby rapers, and this site’s common ground comes from there and a generalized defense of victim. This site’s editor and admin earned my respect(not that they needed it) and the respect of various victims and their advocates on different articles, but the one I stamp is Michael Gagnon’s. I lost a very good friend and she lost her babies to that one.
This one resonates with me. The methods used by the defense seem and appear to be criminal. They are professionally abhorrent to me, and if I get to speak in Vegas this year or next, injury and sponsors willing, I will bring it up in front of a crowd of thousands of other professionals. That’s my Master’s comment Jeff. My mastery comes from education AND the respect of my peers in one aspect of this. Max’s mastery comes from his actual articles. Mulch, should he show up Monday morning after his morning batch, is ex-military and much more networking than I still am. VcBecky has her own perfections. Should you face down Mazzi, she’s just shy of Legal pro, but has been absent for several months.
I’m missing dozens of other contributors that proved their bona fides in a different way. On the internet a 14 year old can claim a Phd. Should you tin eye my picture, you can find out who I am. Should you follow the Bazelon articles, you can follow and find out who I am. I’m an advocate for a lack of internet anonymity.
1. Because it’s already been gone since 1998 for anyone with the right tools
2. because it helps on the verification and validation of what’s said
3. it cuts down on the abuse.
In concession, don’t take a bloody lip as a “go away” sign. Never make the “ball and bat” speech, even when you intend to do it. Your welcome isn’t worn out until you say something really stupid.
Act like you’ve just been invited to a barbecue, where most of the faces are smiling, but obviously the arguments are both heated and very solidly grounded in ideas that will take a reasonable fulcrum to shift. Calling anyone a child(something I actually do when it comes to it) comes after you’ve backed it up specifically, concretely and with a few hooks ready for the next comment.
Knock some teeth in.
Incidentally, this article is now bottom of page two on Google, for the words “Emily Bazelon”
Oh, when this falls just under her wikipedia entry, it will be so sweet…
Almost like that horrible, horrible spreading Santorum move by that Savage guy, only this is only tarring Bazelon with the words she actually used.
As an added treat, this article is on page one of “emily bazelon hadley 6″
Second from the top on page 2, this particular journey was rife with rapids, but it should be under the wikipedia page by Christmas or New Years with any luck.
Here is another Emily Bazelon defender.
http://www.heidipatriot.com/2010/07/case-of-phoebe-prince.html
Kayla Narey’s lawyer, Michael Jennings, wants the charges dropped. Looks like Narey is the mastermind of this whole thing.
http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2010/09/16/lawyer_for_defendant_in_prince_bullying_case_wants_charges_dismissed/
Can you believe the nerve of that attorney? Is he stupid or what? No evidence, my ass! There were eye witnesses for God’s sake. And as for the Narey bitch being a pleasant girl, please! If she were really pleasant, she never would have harrassed Phoebe! I heard she’s getting hate mail. Too bad for her! Her attorney is in for a very nasty shock when he finds out how evil she is!
I can recall many people who were describe as pleasant and would not hurt a fly.
Mohammad Atta
Eric Harris/Dylan Klebold
Jeffrey Dahmer
Ted Bundy
Seung-Hui Cho
Need I say more?
Jim Cline, a reporter for WGGB-TV thinks these terrorists are getting a bad rap. Another stupid teleprompter reading hack. Maybe he is trying to get a slot with Emily “I Have A Chip On My Shoulder” Bazelon. They deserve each other.
http://www.masslive.com/bullying/index.ssf/2010/09/members_of_local_media_weigh_in_on_coverage_of_phoebe_prince.html